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Was she in Oathbringer? The way Vivenna asks Adolin and Kal to pass her regards to Vasher suggests that she is not after him. She uses the word "warn", but in the context that did not strike me as adversarial.

Haven't noticed this as a topic yet - forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere. Act 2. The Letters. My thoughts on authorship. First. All of them are Shards. Letter 3: Clearly, Sazed. The text matches the exact wording of WoBs regarding Sazed's plight. Also very polite and wants to make acquaintance. Which is good. Letter 1: My money is on Bavadin because the author clearly does not like Hoid, and takes opportunity to troll him. Bavadin's dislike of Hoid has been mentioned before. Also, the "my young avatar is very suspicious of you" bit is consistent with WoBs about the entire pantheons of Bavadin. Letter 2: The most difficult one, as it is written in plural, and is more ambiguous than the other two. But... Mraize has just visited the world of Aether of Night. So, my somewhat wacky theory is that Aether of Night has a new canon (no more Ruin on that world), and in that canon, there are either two sibling Shards on the planet, or one Shard that is essentially split into two halves and is held of two equally matched Slivers with own sub-Intents. And this is the Shard/Shards who are writing to Hoid in plural. Thoughts?

Fortune is more of an aspect, like Connection, or Luck. I don't think it is a Shard.

That was my thought too. We've been tricked a bit by linguistics. We understand the semantics of the word "Honor" in a very broad sense, and in the context of fantasy, this word has clear connotations. So, when a god in a high fantasy epic is named "Honor" we expect... well, a lot. But as the three books of the series progressed, what we've been handed is a clear indication that the key Intent of Honor is to ensure that the oaths (and contracts) are not broken. This is a much more narrow reading of what Honor is.

I thought about this too. The progression before the spren rescue to me reads like a "pet the dog" moment for Hoid - Brandon wants to send a message about who Hoid is, and alleviate our fears that he is some horrible monster on the inside. The actual spren... There are two possible interpretations. 1. This is the object of the search. 2. This is not the object of the search, but Hoid knows it's hiding there and wants it because he decided it is time to bond a spren. In either case, I have a suspicion about the origins of the spren. Recall that Elhokar died a Radiant. Recall also that the shadows he was seeing were Cryptics. Based on these two things, it is reasonable to assume that he was in the process of bonding a Cryptic. Then he was killed. This does things to spren, even if freshly bonded. Hoid now has bonded Elhokar's spren.

When I read this, I thought "HIM" in the "I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON" referred to Honor. Basically, Cultivation has a very different way of fighting this battle, but what she does is "grows" the people who will fight Odium (see, Lift and Taravangian as other examples, although the latter requires a separate conversation). So, I took the phrase to mean "I am preparing you to be Honor's weapon". But you may be right, this may be Cultivation's understanding of the gamble and the fact that Dalinar is in the danger of becoming Odium's weapon. Very much want to see more of Cultivation.

I think she was referring to Nightblood.

Like the Shin mountains perhaps? A human climbing the wall to find that they are the evil being kept out? Sounds like the same origin story to me, turned into a fable. This was another thought I have. I think if we stop thinking of this as a story of the origin of highstorms, you may be right. Humans live in Shinovar, with no access to Stormlight and a huge wall. One day someone climbs the wall, goes to the other side, and finds Stormlight. Brings this notion back, and the rest is depicted in the Dawnsinger folklore. So maybe you are correct.

My money is on Hoid. Midius is one of his other names. He spent a certain period of time walking around with Jasnah trading information. Jasnah appears to know a great deal more than a lot of others (the secret that broke the knights radiant isn't really a secret to her). She came back with a clear and strong interest in Heralds (even if her first intent is to kill one and send them to Braize). As to why Heralds know Hoid. This is interesting. There are two possibilities. (a) Hoid may have had something to do with the Oathpact, or may have been around Roshar when it happened. I.e., essentially, they know of his connection to Honor/Yolen/etc... (b) They met during the very long time they got to fight in Desolations, and later while in the hiding. Why Hoid is doing it? Oathbringer pops a hood on what he is doing. I think Brandon is being very deliberate here. There've been a lot of conversations about Hoid, and some scenes in Secret History paint him in a somewhat more sinister light. I think Brandon has decided to hive us a "pet the dog" moments with Hoid in this book to alleviate some of our worst suspicions. Given this... the Heralds are broken. Hoid may want to actually help them.

Dalinar has brought together all three Realms. My feeling is that the message came from Spiritual Realm.

Definitely, this was a huge eye-opening thing when I reread the Death Rattles. Technically could also go the other way - it may be referring to the future (actually, pretty much the present as of the end of Oathbringer) in which the Dawnsingers are reclaiming their lands. It is possible that human souls will now be sent to Damnation again. Pretty obvious in retrospect. A side question, but question nevertheless. We now have two origin stories. One is this: humans brought by Odium after they somehow f-ed up their previous planet. The second is the story that Shallan keeps on remembering - with the wall separating light and dark, which appears to be the story of the origin of Stormlight abd highstorms on Roshar (a very Prometheus story, mind you). If this story was mentioned only once in the book, I'd let it slide. But it is brought up, in excruciating detail twice, and the second time it is brought up, guess who is there essentially telling it? The one effing person who might actually know what is going on there. That second story has a couple of interesting things in it. While the boundary between light and dark is a Taldain thing, the way it works on Taldain is very different, and the way the story refers to things that are so clearly Roshar suggests to me that it was not brought to Roshar by humans. But at the same time, highstorms predate appearance of humans on Roshar (we knew that even before Oathbringer). So... is this a Dawnsinger story coopted by humans?

I am thinking along the same lines. We probably need to go back and see what types of Voidbinding we have seen (both in terms of surges and in terms of Fused forms - which should be the equivalent of the KR orders). Definitely "Windrunners" and "Edgedancers", but also "Stonewards". The thing that Dalinar pulls off at the end of the book - I suspect that this may be something that bonded by Voidspren cannot do, so theoretically they may be missing a Bondsmith-style order. Also, do we know of a relationship between the Unmade and the forms of the Fused?

We know that Hoid does use emotional allomancy. Whether he does it in the case of his conversation with Jasnah is not that clear. I suspect though, the reason Jasnah does not bat an eye at the mention of "Tanavast" is because she actually has heard this name before. Because she is Jasnah.

After reading the whole book, no, they are not. The entire straight man - jokster pairing of two cops is a trope that is significantly older than Wax and Wayne, anyway, and yes, Davis is cast in this trope as a straight man, while Chaz as a jokster. But without giving much away, let's just say that Brandon subverts this trope by the end of the book.

I liked the story. I am basically a sucker, so I did not see the resolution - to me it kept on being the standard cops chase a crazy person thing with a somewhat bitter taste related to the nature of the cops. I do have a complaint though. After the very first scene in the book, when Davis and Chaz are introduced, Brandon, for reasons unbeknownst to me goes for 3-4 paragraphs of exposition of Snapshots, Discrepancies and such. It reads like a straightforward infodump from a Terry Goodkind novel. More importantly, it is absolutely unnecessary, because in the very next scene Davis and Chaz are in the liquor store, Chaz flashes the badge, and the proprietor freaks out. At this point, the "yes we are in a Snapshot", "yes, we are the only two real dudes here", and "rust, will this cause a Deviation? Who cares?" can be established by Davis simply growling at Chaz, Chaz answering, and with the help of some additional one-two liners of author's narrative. So, my suggestion to everyone who has not read the story yet is to just go ahead and skip those three-four paragraphs of exposition. They really stick like a sore thumb. The rest of the story flows really nice actually, even if I could not pick up on the clues.

My reading of this is that Gavilar wanted to turn Parshendi into Voidbringers and fight them, NOT fight alongside them.

There may be other Heralds very interested in preventing a Desolation. This does not have to be Nale's operation.

This is how your original post on the topic and the "He hears a Voice of God" apologia reads to me. Apologies, if it is not the case. Exactly. Apocalypse is not the end, it's the means. Journey before destination, so to speak. Thank you. I could not have said it better myself. This is a good point actually. Skybreakers: let's kill all KRs to prevent Desolation Sons of Honor: let's create Desolation to bring back KRs Clearly, two opposite agendas. Nin is in the house, and I am sure he knows what Gavilar is up to. It also explains why Heralds are there in force that night.

My understanding was that the major visions were done for with the one where we had "UNITE THEM" in capital letters, and where Dalinar finally realized that he was listening to a recording, not having a conversion... Most of the time, when God says something in someone's head in Cosmere, it has been Ruin. So, yes, let's have a conversation about how useful it has been to be hearing voices in your head in Cosmere. The strawman argument you are building is that what Gavilar was doing was a reasonable response to what he has learned from his nightly Almighty messages. I still think he has seen the same things as Dalinar has. Where in them is the direct message from God to do anything the Gavilar is planning??? Gavilar is reacting to what he learned. But his reaction is not the only one possible. In fact, an argument can be made, that his reaction makes less sense than a lot of other possible courses of actions. This makes the justification that he was doing it in the name of his God very weak. He may be trying to justify it this way, but those were not the marching instructions from God. We have seen the marching instructions. They were in ALL CAPS in Dalinar's visions. We can pretend that Gavilar may have seen extra episodes, but let's stop pretending that Tanavast was sending a different message to him. Yes. This has pretty much been my reasoning. No matter what the esteemed opponents in this argument are saying about the Voice of GOD, and so on, reason 1 is effectively a spoiled child wanting more fun things for himself. Voice of GOD or not, Gavilar clearly has a lot of agency in deciding how he chooses to pursue his goals. I think there is no need to jump to conclusions here. Gavilar was pretty clear about his plan. Discover who voidbringers are. (Check. He knows it now) Figure out why they are not voidbringers anymore (Check. The ancient captured spren) Figure out what needs to be done to turn them into voidbringers (Check. "You can keep this. I have another") Turn parshmen (and now that they are here, Parshendi) into Voidbringers ? Heralds appear. Knights Radiant appear. Major battle. There may be a couple more bullet points to this agenda, but my concern is 5. I agree that the Listeners are being manipulated too. (voices in heads are everywhere these days apparently). So, they are no longer off the radar of Odium. But I still think that there are more sane ways to approach saving the world problem then "let's let eldritch deities into the room".

I get a very similar sense - we have not seen the least of the prep work he has done - he did get the voidspren from somewhere, and to listen to him (no pun intended) in the Prologue, he has all but figured it all out. However his "alliance" with Parshendi seems weird to me. Either I do not understand something (and this very well may be the place) or what Gavilar was essentially saying to Eshonai there is something like this: we have treaty, we will bring your gods, you will change, become voidbringers, our Heralds will come back, KRs with them, and we will cheerfully duke it out in a war afterwards. Have I missed something? Does Gavilar think that the Listeners taking new form would fight alongside Knights Radiant? Against who?

Dalinar saw the same "tonight in the history of Roshar" news reel Gavilar saw. Dalinar did not get, all of a sudden get a rushing urge to unleash DOOM. I think we should stop justifying anyone's actions in this world with "God told them to". Nothing good typically comes out of it. Neither in our world, nor in Cosmere.

So.... Fair enough. Here is the wording. It does indeed suggest one spren. It also suggests, that this spren was caught in a "very special gem". So now I have a question. Where the heck is it???

I see where you are coming from, and this makes more sense to me now than before. However, I am still not certain that "OMG, we do not have the time to train! Let's speed up DOOM!" is a pragmatic approach. This is more of a grasping for straws approach that is borne out of someone reading in some text some obscure reference and coming to Gavilar all like "My lord, it is all clear to me! This ketek here... it says: Nice things happen sooner the sooner they happen to nice things! This can only mean one thing! If we start Desolations NOW, Knights Radiant will magically appear. Totally. The books says it... yes... the book...right here sir..." and Gavilar is all like "Yeah... Sounds like a plan" Let's put it this way. Dalinar has seen the same visions. He may, as of yet do something stupid, but so far, making it easier for the enemy to kill everyone in sight is not something he is keen on doing. So, I see what you are saying, but I somewhat disagree that Gavilar and his posse acted in a pragmatic way. My view of pragmatic way is "let's do everything we can to postpone this until very very late". So, I am with Parshendi here. They did the pragmatic thing.

It is pretty clear by now that Dalinar's and Gavilar's paths have diverged significantly. It is also clear that there are sufficiently many people on Roshar running around and one way or another trying to save Roshar from <insert something here>. Here are some of the wacky ideas that are being toyed with. There is a group of people who misinterpret what can only be the in-world version of the "crack in the soul" myth and self-torture hoping to become Knights Radiant. There is a group of people who run around and kill any emerging Surgebinder hoping that this will prevent Desolations from coming. There is a group of people who assassinate monarchs, cause political chaos and try to amass power, all staked on semi-coherent writings of an obsessed person, hoping that this will save the world. There is a group of people trying to kill Jasnah. There is a special place in hell for them. And then there are people who decide that because life just isn't interesting enough because unlike five thousand years ago, they cannot just go and talk to their Gods [1], the correct course of action is to unleash upon the world the very enemies these Gods keep on fighting. This latter plan makes Skybreakers look pitiful, and make the Diagram look positively the only sane people in the room. I am now absolutely convinced that Sons of Honor are the creepiest, most deranged and dangerous SOBs around. The Earth parallel is the Christian sects that want to see all Jews move to Israel, because this is the event that will trigger Apocalypse. Yeah, Gavilar was on his way of Nahel-bonding Stormfather. This actually is probably the best argument for why there should never be more than three Bondsmiths. Because if at least one of them is Gavilar-style wacko, Roshar is going down the drain. [1] Who, we know from WOBs are certifiably insane in their own right (which makes this idea even worse than it otherwise looks) Nope. It really is nowhere near "pragmatic". "Pragmatic" is running around and offing Surgebinders. You are killing individual people, but very few of them, and if this prevents entire countries from being burned out, certain lines of thinking may treat it as pragmatic: it is minimizing the overall loss of life over a long period of time. The Diagram is the tragedy of an anti-villain turning dark and sociopathic. But Gavilar's approach to saving the world is wistful insanity of a spoiled child who has a sad because Santa isn't real and there is no Easter Bunny.

This.... uhm... Let's see.... The only way I can see what you are suggesting making sense to me is if it works as follows... Adonalsium is considered to be the original "patron saint" of the Listeners. Now, this is not too far out. We know that they take on forms by bonding spren, and we know that they predate the humans (and therefore, at least, the coming of Honor and Cultivation - probably). Being native to Roshar means that should predate the Shattering. So, before Honor and Cultivation, they must've bonded spren, and therefore some of their early forms must've been Adonalsium-inspired ones. (now Adonalsium was a god of all, so those forms could be anything). What still makes me wonder is this... I read the story of the last Desolation to be something like this: humans were fighting the voidforms of Listeners and via some feat of Investiture wound up being able to rip spren out of Listeners, turning them into parshmen. However, *before* this happened, a splinter group of Listeners somehow defeated their voidforms to assume dullform and escape. They became the Parshendi we know now. So, to me the "capturing very old spren" read like "spren" was in plural, and referred to the act of ripping the voidspren from the Listeners-in-voidform. Yeah, Gavilar and Sons of Honor are even creepier than the Skybreakers. I do not know if Brandon wanted Gavilar to come off as a disturbed eight-year-old who wants to burn down the house because someone took his candy away, but if he did, kudos. Because this whole "I want my dear Heralds back because life is just too boring without a planetary Apocalypsis" schtick is not making him look good. Compared to him, Mr. T. is Miss Manners. I am also not surprised that anyone who had a clear idea of what Gavilar was up to would be very distrustful of Dalinar.