hoser

Shamelessly begging for PMed code ... May be able to reciprocate after Seattle signing.

My understanding is that splinters are "significant" Shardic investments. So every flamespren is not a splinter. @Shardlet Are you saying that every spren is a splinter? Is there WOB or some other evidence that every spren is a splinter? Are you saying that Syl "is" a splinter, rather than being associated with a splinter? These are the best quotes I could find. The way I read the examples is that the conscious entities are not the splinter. By analogy Syl might be associated with a splinter, but she is not a splinter. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=680 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=949 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=705

Nice idea! If we believe the visions, then the Shardplate and Shardblades coexisted with Honor. After Honor was splintered, then we got all these random spren everywhere. So I don't think the energy adds up, but Brandon has said that Shards can be unsplintered. It seems like a good idea for how to unsplinter a Shard. So maybe you could use the blades and plate to start a chain reaction to get back the rest of the Shard. The Shards themselves don't really have a personality and I don't think splinters do either. So there may be splinters associated with some spren, but I don't think any spren "are" splinters (apologies for pedantry). Other book spoilers:

Very creative! I find the idea that the Parshendi, who have so much reverence for their dead, would hunt one of their alternate forms, more than a little incongruous. Given that the Parshendi are social, intelligent and communicate, it seems that a Parshendi chasmfiend would likewise have the ability to communicate. A combined Parshendi-Chasmfiend force seems like it would be quite formidable.

Rising to the bait ... According to Vorin Mythology, people had been expelled from the Tranquilline halls and were refugees on Roshar. Two things that Honor might have gained from the Oathpact would have been: weaker desolations extended time between desolations Either or both of these might have allowed people to survive.

I will do my best to make the Seattle signing.

I've been wondering this myself and am looking to see what we can come up with or (with the Steelheart tour) tease out of the Source. I like Shardlet's idea that they are generally no longer breeding. Other possibilities include that the Chasmfiend young could be a food source or have a symbiotic relationship with something else. The smokespren also no longer have adult hosts/symbiotes. If the smokespren or something that depends on them have an ecological impact, then that might be the mysterious ecological impact.

The ten deaths include Midnight Essence, and, IIRC thunderclasts. They really seem like Odium's counterpart to the ten orders of Radiants in a way. They even fight each other. It does seem like the deaths don't require the same ongoing level of investiture.

Gloom, I believe that you have quoted a crux moment in Kaladin's development. As I see it, though, it rehashes and extends the developments of Chapter 59. In Chapter 59 "An Honor", Kaladin decides to accept his magical power and use it, no matter where it leads. There are two relevant sections sandwiched around a Chasmfiend sighting (I guess Brandon thought we needed some excitement). The section you quote above is where he extends the first ideal into the second. He goes from being a magic user who will help his team to being a magic user who will fight for those who need protecting, essentially the second ideal. Dalinar's army are those who need protecting. Once he committed to the second ideal in his actions, the words came to him, along with the increased power.

Every native Rosharian having a base investment comes from extrapolating from elsewhere in the Cosmere, so I don't want to go into detail here. Mr. T mentioned the Lifebrother to Szeth at the end. I think Szeth did something very honorable, but maybe in Shinovar, where no spren could see it. What he is doing now seems quite dishonorable and he knows it. That, I think, is what has him hating himself. It is, I think, that corner case of a binding that is culturally sanctioned, but not noble, and therefor not honorable. At this point he seems to be on a path that serves Odium, possibly leading to him becoming Odium's champion. You think Szeth gets his Windrunner abilities based on past actions, I think it's from the sword, but have no evidence to support it. If there were no mysteries, then there would be no reason to read the books, so that's a good thing.

FWIW, in the canyon before he stashed the armor under the bridge (which is when I think he accepted the first ideal, although it was really a process), Kaladin observes that he can hold the stormlight for something like a 1/4 hour. Szeth observes in the beginning that he can hold it for only a few minutes. So, although untrained, Kaladin showed significantly greater ability with stormlight from almost the minute he started consciously using it.

Yeah. That'll work. I'm unclear about what you mean by investitures. I think everyone on Roshar has a base investiture from all 3 Shards. Some have developed additional investiture, which is what I think you're talking about. I believe the base investiture can manifest as talents: Shallan's art/memory thing, Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin and maybe original Szeth's original fighting skills, Jasnah's scholarship (maybe), Rock's seeing of spren. I assume people who wear or carry invested items (Shard blades, Shardplate, Soulcasters, modern fabrials) don't count. By actions, some have formed bonds and additional investiture: Kaladin, Shallan and presumably Jasnah. Szeth may be Windrunning through the use of the sword which wouldn't count, but the hatred and imagined screaming may go beyond irrationality into investiture from Odium. Dalinar has the glowy things, the internal voices and the visions. Taln: a Herald: yup The other heralds who have been alive for thousands of years Hoid: limited forseeing, lightweaving (when he tells Kaladin the story) has investiture, but maybe not from Honor, Cultivation or Odium The travelers looking for Hoid? The Nightwatcher? The voice and face in the storm The Shinovar Lifebrother The Unmade WoR spoiler Future candidates: Elhokar sees spren and Dalinar thinks highly of him. Adolin, despite his antipathy toward Kaladin, seems quite honorable in general and toward the prostitute. Moash Teft - a leader in his own way Rock Navani Do the Parshendi, with their abilities count? What about the Aimians? Does investiture from other sources than Honor count for anyone but Szeth?: Taravangian Sadeas Amaram Is this what you were looking for, Gloom?

Kaladin told Syl that lying was okay another time when the truth would have been discouraging to the men, I believe. I'm too lazy to look it up. She seems to understand. Syl even volunteers to spy on the men of Bridge 4 when Kaladin has just said that they all have to trust each other. That seems like borderline deception and Syl initiates it. I think honor is complex, even on Roshar.

I think Jasnah will have a spren, but not a Cryptic. The situation w/freeing the child was fishy as heck. The word is that T doesn't have soulcasters, but one of his agents uses one in Szeth's presence. I believe that whole situation was manipulated to study Jasnah. Since they know how Soulcasters work, they can see if she is really using hers.

Kaladin lies in Syl's presence, and even explains that some lies are fine. She doesn't break the bonds. I agree w/ you Moogle that lying is possible, but it must be considered in light of the situation and intention.

So the only reason the spren aren't seen in Shinovar is that the people there don't believe in them? It has nothing to do with the lack of highstorms and stormlight? Why did people anywhere start seeing spren in the first place? They wouldn't have believed in them. The unique lack of spren in Shinovar and the unique lack of highstorms in Shinovar are purely coincidental? This seems like fitting the facts to the theory. I am beyond skeptical.

Jasnah tells us that the Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the Recreance. They lived in Alethkar, but trained in Urithiru, in the starfalls vision. I don't think we know the relative timing of the destruction of Natanatan and the Recreance, nor what happened to the Radiants thereafter. If the destruction of Natanatan followed the Recreance, I suppose the orders could have set up structures in a semicircle in Natanatan, but it seems kinda random. On a meta level, I think Brandon has made too great an investment in Urithiru for it to just be a pile of rubble. I think it still exists in some form and our budding Radiants will visit it.

Shallan soulcasting involved communicating w/the object to be soulcast. If the soulcaster created a communication channel between the soulcaster and the object, the complicated specifications about what to change to would come from the person, not the fabrial, and would be commmunicated directly.

In the Rysn interlude, the Thaylen traders don't see spren in Shinovar, although the detection fabrial, which may have a spren inside, still works. I think the lack of spren in Shinovar has to do with the Highstorms, Stormlight or both. Szeth apparently is being punished for doing something to harm the Voidbringers. His people are punishing him for what he did, but seemingly deny the existence of Voidbringers. I find it hard to describe it as a task of his people. Risking the punishment to harm the Voidbringers seems heroic, which may be the point.

Whether it comes about through the reforging of the Oathpact or not, I see the first 5 book arc as staving off the immediate crisis, the "final" desolation. The second 5 book arc would be creating a better situation moving forward. From Odium's POV, I think the final desolation is to wipe out life, or at least people. I think that will free his investment in Roshar, so he can go back to being the Cosmeric menace we all know and love.

Welcome Moogle. Thanks for contributing! What a great way to interpret this cry and put pieces of this puzzle together! Unfortunately, it doesn't quite fit for me. The ten orders seems to refer to the Radiants, as the heralds existed before the Radiants and were individuals. So the POV for the quote in the OP seems to be that of a Radiant, not a Herald. This is confirmed by the lament that "We were loved". The heralds are still loved and revered, but the Radiants went from being loved and trusted to being reviled. Given that it is a Radiant speaking, I think that this is after Tanavast has been removed from control of the Shard Honor (presumably killed) and the Shard is either splintered or being splintered. In the Starfalls flashback, the farm wife exclaims, "Three Gods". I infer from the OP quote and that flashback instance that the Radiants understood that there were Shards of Adonalsium. I interpret the OP quote quite literally, and infer that the Radiants had been able to communicate with Tanavast, or at least could detect Honor's existence. Further, they knew that their swords and armor were magically invested by said Shards, so that is why they called them Shardblades. Honor is still splintered and Kaladin has a spren relationship giving him magical abilities. The Radiants seem to have had access to magic until the Recreance (they glowed and the Windrunners flew in), so I don't find the idea that they lost access to their spren before they quit to be supported. While I generally agree with all of this, there are mutiple references to a Proving Day, where I believe they passed tests/were chosen. They don't fit the racial types on Roshar. The one Herald POV has no communication w/a spren. There are Vorin beliefs about being expelled from something called the Tranquilline Halls after a long struggle. I infer that the Heralds were chosen before people came to Roshar and have no spren bonds. I assume spren are unique to Roshar and the nearby limits of Shardic influence. What is puzzling to me is that Kalak doesn't communicate w/Tanavast before packing it in. We have word of Brandon that Tanavast was around at the time of the Heralds quitting. The heralds make reference to a male someone not being bound. I assume they are talking about Odium. If they know about the Oathpact and Odium, they must know about Honor.

Nice work with the quotes, Meg. I think your question might be: where is Odium? The assumed time frame is after the first book and before the second. I imagine Odium to be on the other planet. I think Brandon thinks of Honor still being on Roshar, even though splintered and Tanavast is presumably dead. So the two Shards on Roshar are Honor and Cultivation.I assume that Odium can maintain his Connection to Roshar from where he is.

So, we agree? Maybe I misunderstood your original assertion about Shards being unable to act outside of their portfolio. I envision a sphere of actions with an axis representing the intent. At one end of the axis is a cone with actions directly in line with the intent and the other end is a cone with actions directly opposed. The question is how big the cone of actions in line with intent. I think that if it supports a plan to advance it's intent, a shard can take actions that are neutral or even somewhat counter ot it's intent. Are you saying that you agree? What Pechvarry said. The point you and Windrunner are making is that when a being first takes up a Shard, they can act directly against the intent. Which is sort of a qualifier to your first statement that I agreed with: "Preservation couldn't Ruin." should more correctly be "Preservation couldn't Ruin except soon after being taken up." It is irrelevent to the notion that Shards can act outside of their intent to support their plans at any point.

I agree with the first part of this: "Preservation couldn't Ruin." I strongly disagree with the second part of this, which is a very different assertion: "more than likely can't do other Intents that fall outside the portfolio of Preservation" I have provided several examples of why this second assertion does not fit the books. What evidence do you have to support the second assertion? But, basically irrelevent to the point under discussion. Consider this annotation to Chapter 63 of Mistborn 3. There is a sentence near the middle: Mistborn Spoiler Just spending a few minutes reading annotations gives examples of Shards acting outside the narrow intent. The point is: Even at the end of Mistborn 3, Ruin acts outside the narrow intent of the Shard to advance the plan. As my other example shows, acting in ways that are not directly in line with the intent is always possible for Shards. The duration of Shard possession is irrelevent to this. This is basically my point. I believe that Shards can't act against their intent. They can act in other ways than in direct execution of their intent, however, as long as they believe it net supports their intent. This point applies at any time, even long after the Shard human binding. Exactly! Odium can renege or not as it suits his plans, because keeping agreements doesn't directly relate to his intent. Honor can't act against his intent and keeping agreements is central. On something that doesn't relate to Honor's intent, like when he allows the nonRadiants to remain relatively powerless, he has freedom of action.

Whoa. There is a big jump in here. I agree that Preservation couldn't Ruin, which is to say the Shard can't operate in opposition to it's intent. That is far from saying that the Shard can only act in a narrow band of actions that are completely in line with it's intent. So preservation could make a deal with Ruin that allowed ruin to occur. Further, Preservation could ruin that agreement by betraying Ruin. Neither of these actions is strictly in line with the intent of Preservation, but because they served the goals, Preservation could do them. I think what limits the potential of the Shard is narrowly limiting it's actions to those which are strictly in line with the intent. For example, I think Honor participated in the Oathpact, parts of which included torturing the Heralds and having Desolations. I don't think Honor tortured or desolated. I believe Honor thought that the result would serve it's intent, so it could participate in the overall setup.