hoser
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Vorinism and the Decline of Historic Knowledge
hoser replied to The Rooster's topic in Stormlight Archive
Welcome to the forums! Annotations? Wipes drool off face. Where are there annotations? I checked the Ars Arcanum hopefully, but found nothing. Yeah. It seems possible. I think the Shardblade gainers might have some motivation to slag the Radiants. Assumption: current lighteyes are descended from people who acquired those weapons and armor, and the Radiants were the only lighteyes prior to the Recreance. People were ruled by darkeyes in kingdoms. Current beliefs are that lighteyes (not just Shardbearers) are divinely fitted to rule. Deduction: The new Shardbearers merged with the ruling class somehow and created beliefs justifying their rule over time. The new Shardbearers could presumably (winners write history) create stories blaming massacres on the Radiants. They could just as easily blame the other Shardbearers or minimize discussion of the massacres. Deduction: I don't see the survivors getting together and having a peaceful meeting to discuss a unified story after the Recreance scene. I think trust between Shardbearers will take a while to develop. In the meantime, the new Shardbearers probably scattered. The new Shardbearers could blame the massacre on the Radiants, but they don't really need to. Who is going to argue with them? Bring them to justice? Might quickly makes right. The non-Radiants might initially see being ruled by these new Shardbearers as a calamity, but that must have been stamped out long ago because of the current beliefs about lighteyes. Someone created a war that did not involve a Desolation and demonized the opponents. The Radiants deserted suddenly. Whoever justified that war has more motivation to paint the Radiants as evil (as I see it), particularly if they want to continue the war. The logical candidate for people prosecuting the war is the ardentia, but I have speculated too far already. -
this is known from an interview: But some speculate that there is a spren trapped in Szeth's sword. Edit: nothing significant
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I hope I am not offending to remind you of the section from Chapter 11: Basically confirming what you said. Technically, Tien was already dead by that point, but it seems to me to line up with your point. The bond formation really seems to accelerate in chapter 14, but I'm too lazy to quote the relevant passages. The assumption here seems to be that her apparent magical skill is based on a spren bond and not a Calling. The spren bond formed so early because she was acting Radiantly. It certainly seems possible. It is also interesting that Syl resembles a windspren, but the Cryptics do not resemble creationspren. If Nahel bond spren are formed from a simpler spren and a splinter or a dragonwasp, then they might still resemble the base spren. What would be the base spren of the Cryptic?
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The Cryptic's repeated "What are you?" does seem odd. It could be confusion, as you say. Another possibility I see is that the Cryptic (with its cognitive focus) needs her cognitive identity, how she sees herself. When she states her feelings (afraid) and a hidden identity (murderer) it seems to be enough. The "What" could be the Cryptic's way of focusing on identity rather than what she knows, believes or has done. Syl is very different from the Cryptic. I assume that Jasnah is dealing with a different type of spren from either of the other two. On the model in my head, Jasnah's bond is established, so she doesn't need to reveal more of herself each time to soulcast. Venturing wildly afield, I see both of Shallan's divine attributes as cognitive (assuming Shash order). When I assume that Jasnah is in the Palah order, I see her divine attributes as cognitive (Learned) and spiritual (Giving), so I imagine her spren will be strongly cognitive like the Cryptics, but somehow not quite as cognitive and more spiritual. Jasnah's spren might have needed to bond with a somewhat different aspect of her.
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I see parallels between the Shallan/Cryptic and Kaladin/Syl relationships. Syl was attracted to him when he was in Amaram's army. He doesn't become aware of her as anything but an annoying windspren until nearly the end of his time as a slave. Their relationship/bond strengthens when she starts asking him questions in chapter 2. The Cryptic (I am assuming that only one is talking with her although several seem present) communicates "What are you?" in chapter 42 and 45. But the communication in chapter 70 is lengthier: Truths could be a payment. OTOH I see a bond being established. When the bond exists, the spren can link Shallan to Shadesmar. These spren, being more cognitively associated than Syl, can remember how the process works and understand the bond more. One proof will be whether Shallan has to keep revealing truths every time. If there is a bond, then it should persist and she won't need to reveal a new truth every time. If the Cryptics don't gain cognition from Shallan, what do they gain? Perhaps they gain on the spiritual or physical side. Why are there multiples? I can imagine Honor and Cultivation working together investing in their people. Honor "honors" each person with a gift and Cultivation strengthens it when they "cultivate" it. I can see this in the Vorin religion. The Radiants didn't have the same restrictions. Overall, I see the way of Honor and Cultivation to connect (bind) people. This is why Honor is nostalgic about the Silver Kingdoms. I see Odium as corrupting people and creating separations. The thrill, national divisions, provincial divisions and gender divisions seem like the way of Odium to me. I agree that the gifts have to be universal. What happens to gifts that are undeveloped and undiscovered? Moash seems to have a similar gift for fighting to Kaladin. What if he never received training? Adolin seems to have a talent for fighting also. Rock could have a gift for cooking, but maybe just skill. Jasnah seems talented in many ways, she could be gifted. Navani likewise. But what is Renarin's gift? Teft's? Sadeas's? Elhokar's? Szeth seems skilled at combat. Maybe they haven't discovered or cultivated their gifts yet. Or maybe we just don't know them well enough.
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It seems to me that this is unique talent that dates back to childhood. It seems to have started too early for her actions to have attracted a spren. While the only framework I have for magical abilities is the Nahel bond with two surges and a special ability, I wonder if there is something else going on. We have at least one other example of this: Kaladin's fighting ability seems like an innate talent. Other possibilities include Dalinar, Adolin and Gavilar for having innate talents. I wonder whether there is something to the Vorin notion of a calling. A unique ability that certain people (maybe all people) have based on their natural magical investment. These abilties don't necessarily draw from stormlight. Maybe this ability can be cultivated also.
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Thanks for the explanation. This obsessive reader, in considering what must have happened behind the scenes to allow the Radiants to respond as they did in "Starfalls" and interpreting the vision as I do, reached a different conclusion. I think that most readers will interpret it as you did, but It seems possible to me that Brandon could be hiding one reality behind another. He has fooled me so many times in Mistborn that I am sure that I am misinterpreting many things in tWoK. In suggesting that this reading is strong evidence for communication, I erred, and appreciate being reminded of it. Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:01 PM Shardlet, on 28 Jun 2013 - 15:38, said: Good point! In a way, it is more like one of Dalinar's visions. I wonder whether there is time-compression also, as he rides to the end of the continent and the storm is still just ending at the Shattered Plains. The Szeth sighting seems significant too. So many questions. Shallan's memory thing seems to go back to before she could have attracted a spren, unless it was a spren attracted to drawings. Edit: combine posts to eliminate double post
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I can read the text either way. I am saying, based on my understanding of investiture and the knights, that his acceptance as a knight would be partly action-based and not purely skill-based. If your interpretation is correct and the knight is implying acceptance as a knight, then I believe it is partly because of the Radiant's judgments about Dalinar's actions and not just his fighting skill. Does this make sense? Other than your conviction about your interpretation of the statement, do we still disagree?
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It seems like a possibility. Why do you say "bluntly implied"? If it was Kaladin and Syl searching for a weird spren, they wouldn't be having a conversation. Kaladin would be looking and he would ask Syl to look also (as she is quite good at finding things). This knight's spren might not be as mobile as Syl though. She could be talking to her spren because the spren is useless in the search. Yeah. We don't know for sure whether Kaladin's Stormriding consumes stormlight, although it is implied not to, just because the bridgemen hardly had any.
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Now I disagree about our disagreement . It seems we agree that Dalinar is being told that he is nearly certain to be accepted as a Radiant "soldier" based on his fighting skill. We agree that he is being told that he may be accepted as a Knight. And your last post suggests that you believe that Dalinar's actions (not solely skill) improve the likelihood of becoming a knight. I agree with this. What I disagreed with was: "The radiant says that this is because of Dalinar's skill and makes no mention of his character." I must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you thought acceptance as a Knight would be solely based on fighting skill. So there we might be: violent agreement. Do you agree?
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I apologize for not retyping more. The context of the second quote is after the Windrunner has left. The woman is talking and her expression is the one that grows distant. She refers to Harkaylain in the third person. You might want to reread the section. There has to be some sort of detection going on in order for the Knights to arrive in the first place. The Knights are all located in Alethela and they quickly respond to a problem in rural Natanatan. There are detection fabrials and Syl can detect a concentration of people as they approach the Shattered Plains. This detection seems to be based on "cognitive activity". I think there must be something else going on, because those are proximity-based and not attuned to the Midnight Essence. I hypothesize (should I make a new theory?) that there is a "Detect Voidish" ability or something similar. To detect Midnight Essence in another country, or presumably anywhere in the Silver Kingdoms, another ability is necessary. Is this ability is a specialization of a pair of orders or available to all knights? Quite possible. Am I being presumptuous in reminding you of the reading that inspired this thread? The reading includes: I think this strongly supports remote audible communication. The next question for me is whether certain orders possibly including the Stonewards have an additional silent ability. The Knight in the WoR reading is presumably of the Chach (3) order, which is not adjacent to the Stoneward (9) order. You touch on another point that I am very curious about. In the "Starfalls" chapter, the Stoneward woman and the Windrunner man are described as having eyes that appear to glow. Does that mean that they can infuse? We know that Windrunners can, but it is not Pressure or Gravity, the two surges of Windrunners. Can all Radiants infuse? If so, there may be set of abilities that all orders gain in addition to their two surges and their special ability. Why then don't Jasnah or Shallan infuse? Maybe Shallan doesn't know how and Jasnah, if she knows how, hasn't needed to. Edit: Added universal Radiant ability speculation (last 3 paragraphs)
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Actually, I disagree. I think he is saying it is likely he will have a place, but not necessarily as a Radiant. He says he can't promise a place in the orders "that decision is not mine", but he is confident that he can find a place with them. We saw, in the Recreance vision, that there were other non-Knights associated with the Radiants. Based on his fighting skill, he judges that Dalinar could have a place, but not necessarily in the orders. Whose decision is it that someone is in the orders? It could be someone in the Radiant hierarchy or it could be a spren, we don't know. Notice that he says that Dalinar's ability is extraordinary for a Knight or a soldier. The female knight says that all who can fight are needed and all who have a desire to fight should be compelled to come to Urithiru. Surely not everybody becomes a Knight.
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Spanreed fabrials that are used for remote communication? Hard to say, since we don't have experience with spren communicating. Syl is redeveloping cognition, but doesn't seem to remember previous connections with any clarity, so there is really no-one for her to communicate with. The Cryptics seem social, and through their greater relationship with the cognitive realm, may not have lost their memories as Syl has, so it will be interesting to see what develops. From the little we've seen, it's premature to conclude anything about their communication. In the camp where Kaladin is a platoonleader, a spren (I believe Syl) sticks a pouch of spheres to his belt. This is before he is a slave and she talks to him. She also makes people trip by sticking their feet to the ground. In his POV, he says that anyone can catch a spren, but that you learn to ignore them. Windspren can bind things, essentially creating a small lashing, even without the bond. When Syl is not cognitively advanced, I believe it is how she expresses herself. I predict that as we learn more, we will find that spren endow their particular abilities through the bond. I think that we will find that Cryptics are associated w/Shadesmar even in the absence of the bond. So I disagree strongly, the bond does not create new abilities, but rather share them. Syl shares Kaladin's cognitive abilities through the bond and he gains the Lashings that she already had.
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Well, I do make a degree of inference, but BS's intention seems clear (to me ) From Starfalls (the section Shardlet refers to): Why would she turn to her companion if not to communicate? They are surrounded by monsters, so it is not helpful. If they wanted to communicate by body language, she could just move to the triangulated position without turning to the other knight. The "looked to the side, expression growing distant" indicates something to me. I think she is communicating with Harkaylain or someone communicating with Harkaylain and relaying what she "hears". Syl communicates with Kaladin silently, as does Shallan with at least one Cryptic. I assume Jasnah is doing the same. Since I believe that the Nahel bond allows people to use spren abilities, it seems possible that some knights might gain that ability. In Mistborn: That's the data leading to my conclusion. Neither piece of evidence is conclusive and the first seems weaker, but looking at them together, I can't think of any other reason for that prose other than to indicate the female knight's's ability to communicate. What do you guys think, having heard my case? Edit: reference spren communication, move spoiler paragraph
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Why do the Parshendi shoot at the bridgemen?
hoser replied to Shardlet's topic in Stormlight Archive
Done, assuming you meant Shardlet. -
I read it wanting to exculpate her because I empathize w/POV characters. The passage seems to really clearly indicate to me that your reflective conclusion is correct. At a deeper level I think you are correct. Her father's response to her having murdered and his wife being dead seems wrong and I keep think that it will turn out that he helped create the situation that led to her monstrosity and his wife's death. Of course, I could just be still wanting to reduce her guilt ...
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It's an interesting possibility that Shallan draws Kaladin and Syl. There are some really interesting scenarios that Brandon could create. One possibility is at one of the King's Banquets. I can imagine Shallan drawing away shyly (is that a word) and attracting attention for the sheer number of creationspren. What if she somehow got drawn into one of those "duels" that the women engage in and started drawing a spren that most other people can't see?. She could just do her own drawing privately, find Syl there and ask Jasnah about it. It's fun to imagine the interactions, given the possibilities Brandon has set up: Kaladin hates lighteyes. Kaladin may have killed her brother. Kaladin should probably tell Dalinar about his abilities, so they can plan his protection better. Particularly since Kaladin has seen Szeth in the highstorm dream. Kaladin is likely to be sitting in on readings from tWoK. He could ask to have it read to him. Shallan could be assigned the task. Jasnah and Dalinar could compare notes. Even if Dalinar doesn't know about Kaladin's abilities, if he describes the Tower battle to her, she could see that something unusual was going on. If he describes seeing Kaladin glowing, she might know what it means. If they ever get to communicating with the Parshendi, the Parshendi could ask about the surgebinder/Radiant (not sure of the translation for "Neshua Kadal"). Or they could have the big attempted assassination where Kaladin surprises everybody not in Bridge 4 by flying around super-fast and glowing while interfering with Szeth's actions and Shallan whips a Shardblade out of nowhere. For that matter, what if she draws Cryptics around king Elhokar?
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Welcome to the forums! Please forgive me if this post sounds too critical. Given that much of this is heavily based on the readings from Words of Radiance, I suggest it move to that sub-forum. I know the title says spoilers, but that can often refer to spoilers from elsewhere in the Cosmere. It seems like a collection of theories to me. I wonder whether it makes sense to pick your favorite individual theory from among them and post it with the relevant quotes and a more specific title in the WoR subforum. Is the implication of theories 2-2b that what Gavilar did caused the Shattered Plains? I think the Shattered Plains have been that way for much longer than 6 years.
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You probably caught it on the re-read, but I assumed it was silent when it says "in her head": The "murderer" part is whispered. Maybe it is so quiet that Jasnah can't hear. After all, it doesn't even need to be whispered for the spren to apparently hear it. edited: cleanup
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I assume that Jasnah, as a Radiant of a different order, will interact with a different type of spren. I think she is familiar with the Cryptics from her scholarship or through communicating with her spren. I assume that spren vary in their orientation to the three realms. Syl is more physical and spiritual, so without the bond, her cognition suffers. Cryptics and presumably Jasnahspren bind their bonded surgebinders to the cognitive realm and are oriented to that. I expect they maintain cognitive function without the bond and maybe remember their history. I assume that Shallan has a bond with just one Cryptic. What is interesting to me is that they seem to be social.
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Nice!
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The reading is fascinating. One interesting aspect is that the Knight is communicating audibly, whereas the Knights in "Starfall" seemed to communicate silently. Is there something different going on or is it order-based? Kaladin speaks audibly to Syl, but Shallan and presumably Jasnah communicate silently in in tWoK. I've been assuming that Kaladin doesn't just direct his thoughts at Syl because he hasn't tried yet. Maybe the Knight to Knight communication can only be silent for certain orders. If the Stoneward woman is one of them, then order 8 or 10 is the other.
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Are the Cryptics following Jasnah? Could they be just following Shallan and maybe Taravangian?
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Vorinism and the Decline of Historic Knowledge
hoser replied to The Rooster's topic in Stormlight Archive
Thanks, Morsk. You inspired me to look at the epigraph, and it was what I was quasi-remembering. And Meg, it wasn't a wild goose chase after all. Presumably from one of Jasnah's notebooks, the notation underneath the epigraph quote of Chapter 35: So something is a surviving original source, which is only understood from a requotation. This means to me that the original is in the Dawnchant. Purely speculation, but Jasnah's lament suggests to me that there may be other documents in Dawnchant also. Unfortunately, there are few words that overlap the phrase that Dalinar translated, but hopefully Navani will have more translations when Jasnah arrives at the Shattered Plains. I almost want Jasnah to teleport Shallan straight there rather than take a boat, but I suspect Brandon will have some fun interactions on the boat trip if some combination of Szeth and Taravangian are on the same boat. If Shallan's ship captain friend owns the boat in question and is a Ghostblood, it could be even more interesting. -
Vorinism and the Decline of Historic Knowledge
hoser replied to The Rooster's topic in Stormlight Archive
Umm, well. I must be hallucinating again. Please accept my apologies and an upvote for sending you on a wild goose chase. I will get my own electronic copy, so I will be the only one whose time I waste in the future.