Quantus

Hard to say, we dont know how most of those work. Most would require combinations, I think, and all will be more labor intensive than Soulcasting. Cohesion lets you shape matter, so make blocks and walls and things without quarrying, replaces stonecutting tools. Abrasion and Gravation would make maneuvering those blocks into place a lot easier. But those are basically accomplishing the Pyramids-type construction without a massive Slave workforce, but it will still take time. Tension is probably the easiest: all we know about what it does is "taking something flexible and making it rigid" which should be able to turn any number of things into temporary fortifications at least, and I think theres a reasonable possibility that Half-shard operate on Tension. If they could have steamrolled over them as easily as you describe, I dont think that there would have been any need for Probing and Harassing operations. Those are tactics designed to wear down a defending force through attrition, which was certainly effective, though they would have worked much faster without Hoid's meddling. But your point is valid. My personally opinion is that while her force was entirely over-matched and/doomed, they still made a decent showing that proved Surges alone arent an "I Win" button. They always were substantially over-matched in numbers, and if I recall correctly those numbers were what eventually overran the city, not Surgebinders. (Am I remembering that right? My opinion would pivot quite a bit on that point.) Concur Im glad you said this, because I was using the medieval terms differently: I generally consider a Castle to be a large, capital city sort of citadel, where in any siege is going to have a town/city's worth of population to protect (even if all the town buildings arent inside the walls). Without a town or some other civilian population, Id call it a garrison or Outpost. But that's not to say my usage is historically accurate or anything, just the result of too many Warcraft RTS games in my youth. How so? Id think that the travel/marching limitations that the Highstorm imposes would make transportation, since a lot of tactical calculations are based entirely on how far you can get between Highstorms. Maaaybe? Crem offers a lot of possibilities, it's essentially raining concrete. I think you may be underestimating seige tactics. The Bridges were essentially Siege Engines, and they got used just fine. And Highstorms need to be anticipated and accounted for, but they arent daily so the Siege activities would still be viable most days. In a siege the main goal is to cut off supplies and starve them out, with engagements mostly used to fatigue them and deplete their resources, so the attackers can retreat out to a larger radius for the Storms and still accomplish that. And if the attacking force are Singers, they have a lot less trouble in the Highstorms (which was a major advantage on the shattered plains) To my mind the entire war on the Shattered Plains was an example of one long Rosharan-style Siege. Until they lost sight of their true purpose the goal had been to contain the Singers and then penetrate to their population center in the middle. It used Siege engines, combinations of Shardbearers and traditions troops, and was limited by the Highstorms but not negated by it. The Human's biggest limitation was how far they could move their Force and still expect to reach Shelter before the next Storm. Speaking of Shelter, it's important to remember that it can be as little as a covered wagon like Kaladin was across a lot of Roshar. The Highstorms are far more powerful in eastern places like the Shattered Plains but far less dramatic the further west they go. So, for example, the Highstorm should have little to no effect on a Siege against the Shin (other than as a source of storrmlight).

Not irritated, just was having a conversation that got derailed by a half-joking statement that I took as normal theory participation. I was trying to understand and address your point, thinking it was a serious opinion rather than a joke I should have just ignored.

Ooh, cool idea. Aside from Dragons Im not sure we'll get something that alien that is still a native of the Physical Realm (ie not a spren) but I could easily be wrong. Hell, it's carbon-based but there's a fair amount of "alien" life on Roshar. Does Harmony? Admittedly he's described his role a fairly hands-off. Otherwise I think there might be some strong possibilities with the Autonony Avatars, they sound more overt in their interactions. Dark but also Awesome! How would you feel about it happening to a non-shard world? In Era 4 that could be more likely, and they'll presumably have a lot more named worlds by then. I think this one is unlikely but only for Doylistic reasons, I was pretty sure he'd said he intended to never cross that line. Agreed! Also would like to see more Shadesmar regions, like Sel and maybe the "lesser" regions of places like the Moon that people think about but havent yet visited.

Easiest answer is that she is still using those gems for Stormlight fuel. They break when stressed by sudden extraction of their stormlight (there are physical stresses, they mention it on the Gem Archive functions), and Shallan has also caused it to happen with Soulcasting (in WoR ch7). Beyond that Jasnah was specifically trying to fool people, show she might have taken extra steps for deception (palming pre-cracked gems or something).

My apologies, Ill try to spot and ignore them in the future. I still disagree with this assertion, since Azure was able to do precisely that during the siege of Alethkar. Random, variably trained folks on a Wall vs Fused (including flyers), and the only Investment on their side was a Sword that (supposed Intelligence aside) is functionally just a pointy Half-shard in that it can block any shard-blades the Fused might have (which I believe is very few indeed). Supremely, Id say, even without all the various systems that it supposedly had. Being above the Highstorm is in itself a huge tactical advantage on it's own. If you consider it as part of a set with the other Oathgate cities, then by virtue of being the Teleportation Hub it becomes the lynch-pin of their whole alliance. Im not as convinced as you are that they'd have to be one of those major cities to have any fighting chance with fortifications and mild support, but that's based on the assumption that smaller cities/targets would generally warrant proportionally smaller attack forces. A committed offensive with any large portion of their strength against a lesser force is going to (typically) steamroll over the disadvantaged side.

Fair enough, but I think they should be considered, and Id argue that actual Combat is not the only relevant instance. For example: Oathgates are a Fabrial alternative to Transportation, and specifically one that can be used for large-scale movement of non-Invested troops. Soulcasters and Regrowth Farbials (both confirmed present in that era) are key tactical advantages that arguably more useful off the battlefield (or adjacent to it for Regrowth). Soulcasters in particular were one of the single most critical resources off the battlefield because that was the primary source of manufactured things like Iron and Steel, where the mundane populace was otherwise reduced to pre-Bronze Age capabilities. Oh certainly, Shardblades where specifically designed (and needed) to counter that threat. No single individual could take one down without it, though a Group would have almost precisely the same chances as against a Chasmfield (which is small but non-Zero). This will not be the last example of a thing (on either side) that simply cannot be countered by mundane means, though most I cant name are countered by something on the other side. Well, Azure's group managed to do precisely that for quite a while, and they had one pseudo-shardeblade and no Surgebinders. Had the city Leadership not wasted the vast majority of their food stores, they would have been holding with no Surge support at all. Agreed, though for what it's worth on Roshar they do mention that the the Highstorm significantly impacts that sort of thing, on the basis that Armies dont/cant camp outdoors in Highstorms, so they have to make sure there is shelter within marching distance. It was a specific design consideration of Alethkar, for example. I disagree, though I could be wrong. The difference is that literally every single Singer has the capability of becoming one of them, none of them sit it out because they are all expected to have some form (may or may not be a form of Power, but in a fully Odium dominated society I think it's likely), and these forms arent limted by requiring a Sentient Spren, they can only require the lesser spren (of which I assume there are orders of magnitude more than the sentient breeds). ...OK? Is directly quoting your statement to reply to it somehow insulting? Because im getting that sense but it was not my intention? How would you prefer we do it? Fair enough. Holding ANY location against a superior force is going to be cost-intensive, but Id argue that the nature of that superiority doesn't change the fundamental fact, and still doesnt negate the value of Fortifications large and small.

Gotcha. To be clear are you counting only full Radiants as Surgebinders, or are you including Squires and Fabrial Users as well? That will make a massive difference to the evaluation, especially with Fabrial Users. Side note: where did we learn that Spanreeds are a newer invention than the other Fabrials? Im not doubting you, I see several references to it, but Id like to see the original source. Even without those, the visions certainly made it seem like non-surgebinders could hold their own against many of the various Voidspawn: Dalinar did well against the Midnight Essence with a firepoker, and they recruited him because of it. I agree with this statement but Im still missing it's relevance to @Honorless's assertion that fortifications would be "hilariously ineffective"? As far as we know there's nothing close to the shear offensive supremacy of the Shardbalde's spiritual attack, but short of that the shapeshifting Fused have as much weapon versatility as a Living Shardblade, their PowerForms' Chitins are said to be as durable as Plate, and if Im not mistaken it also was shown to be Invested enough to block Shardblades at Half-shard levels.

You lost me, I dont see where you are going with that. I thought we were talking about Surgebinding's place and limitations in Warfar, not specifically one side's use or the other? And even then Im dont really see the scenario you were going for and/or the point you were trying to make. Sorry. Well, We are all agreed that only one side having Surgebinding puts them at a stark disadvantage, but since both sides had relatively equal Surgebinding, that will affect them equally. With as many as four Orders able to make physical shelters on very short notice, along with two able to make illusory cover, and I think fortifications would still have a place.

Nah, we know they very much did still use fortifications, as even modern militaries do. Additional capabilities like flight, etc, dont negate the need or usefulness of fortifications, they just alter the design. It's another never-ending arms race, just like the Weapon Vs Armor dichotomy.

Probably not personifications in any sort of metaphysical cosmic being sort of way, in that I think they'd still be human and whatnot just with a stronger Nahel Bond. I think they are simply expected to be Masters of their order's Philosophy, a Buhdda or Dali Lama type figure that has achieved some sort of Enlightenment. But at the end of the day that wouldnt make them any more of an inhuman paragon than being a Herald would, and we've seen ample evidence that they are not supernaturally dedicated to their attributed divine traits.

Both steps require the Knowledge of specific Bind-points. It just happens that a significant number of them are clustered on and around the Heart. You can hit the wrong bind point and steal something unintended. Using application specific spikes makes this a bit less of a danger by filtering out most of the options, so the danger is greatest with Atium which gets 100% of it's selection from the Bind Point since it can steal ANY Power or Trait.

Agreed, though there's an argument to be made that spiking the terminally ill is no different than Organ Donation (though it would get bogged down in the nature of the Spiritweb and soul, Im sure). Setting that one bit aside, any spike makes a person more susceptible to emotional Allomancy, so there's that Con. It messes with your Identity, so if you are already a ferring there might be some logistic issues with you existing metalmind stores. As a general statement, our current (admittedly incomplete) understanding of Medallions indicates that spike should eventually become almost entirely unnecessary, since there is very little that a spike can steal that couldnt be accomplished bloodlessly with Medallions (this assumes spikes arent needed in Medallion creation, which I personally think they are). Eventually I think the two most common uses of Hemalurgy are going to be Aluminum spikes to remove the abilities of convicts, and Identity Spikes to allow post-mortem access to metalminds, which would then become an accumulated family wealth not unlike Breaths on Nalthis. While we're on the topic I also think it should be possible to spike a full Allomancer with a Single Connection spike and the right Bind Points. Lerasium creates an Allomancer by making a permanent Connection to Preservation. That Connection should itself be a viable target of Duralumin Hemalurgy the same as any other.

Ah, ok I see what you are getting at. You are saying that Atium and Lerasium (and presumably Harmonium) might uniquely be godmetals that can be pushed. While I suppose that's possible (exceptions can always happen) it doesnt feel like it fits to me. Id think the shared rules would make the same play out for both Surges Vs Shardblades/Plate as for Pushing vs Atium. Actually I think it more likely to go the other way, since there's so much more Investiture in Surges (as a general statement)and they can override things like basic human investiture where Pushes cannot.

According to the WOBs I was able to find, the issue is that it's not a binary thing, you can push on ANY metal if you are strong enough to overcome said Investiture. Per this WOB every time it's happened in Mistborn there was some Enhancement going on. There's another one that does confirm it is possible to push on Godmetals like Shardblades, but that it would take crazy amounts of power But before we disappear in the weeds too far, my main point was just that the functions of Invested metals were indeed considered and settled in Era1, it's not something that was retconned in for Era 2, which I thought was what @StanLemon was trying to say.

This isnt a deciding fact, but its worth noting that the Locks do have their own energy source independent of the royal's Breaths: the ability relies on actual caloric intake, and using it makes the royal proportionally hungrier (especially if actually creating new hair).

I came across this WOB and I cant figure out what he's referencing (admittedly it's been a long time since I read Elantris). When have we seen Selish Magics "making a copy" via transformation that would "fill your head with things". Is that a Forgery reference, or has there been something like actual cloning?

That WOB says you can use Allomantic Duralumin to boost a Surgebinder. There is no Compounding hack to get any more of an Allomantic effect, they just have to Flare (and risk Svantism thereby). If Flared (perhaps this was the OP's intended question?) I think it would work mostly the same way and flush all their held Stormlight into a single Surge (the effects of which would vary wildly by Surge). Compounding would get you an unlimited supply of a Stored attribute, and in the case of Duralumin it would give you an unlimited supply of some Spiritual Connection. This Supercharging Connection would make people supernaturally trusting of you, and per WOB it would have lots of use in Worldhopping (though we dont how all that actually works yet). The most Useful instance of Duralumin Compounding I can think of would actually be for getting Selish Magic off-world. Supposedly, one of the Easier methods to get access to Selish magics off-world is to tap the Connection to the appropriate nation/region of Sel from a metalmind. Being able to Compound means you only have to acquire the Connection once (which is likely to require Worldhopping to Sel, not easy these days), after which you can Compound it indefinitely. As long as you have the initial Seed Connection. You'll need an UnSealed Medallion that grants Connector Powers and get locals to hold it and fill some random bit of Duralumin but not the actual medallion with their local Connection. Then you have a collection of Connections to Elantris for AonDor, MaiPon for Forgery, etc.

Thats not true at all. Metalminds and Godmetals were key plot elements, as was the fact that both (along with charged spikes, which they were disguised as) could not be Pushed or Pulled.

Agreed. This is a combination of the fact that Wax is unusually Skilled (to the point of near savantism) and Wayne tends to use up his Gold reserves on jokes, instant sobriety, etc. With a lesser Coinshot or a more miserly Bloodmaker, they'd likely be Invested enough to prevent Pushing. If it becomes a tactical disadvantage, Wayne could always get himself some Gold Piercings like TLR or Miles.

Im not sure I like that option, just because (to me) it sounds so much more subjective than the others. Who would be deciding who "needs it most"? The base "Those that Cannot protect themselves" is a lot more objective (flaws in prediction aside) and the 3rd just reasserted that the Windrunner would still do it even if they didnt personally want to. I agree that a logical next step is somehow going to address some sort of triage mentality, the idea that they cannot save everyone, but "Those that need it the most" feels like it's still missing something.... EDIT: to be clear, this is purely my opinion on the themes, but your theory is a good one and has every possibility of proving correct.

"Weight" was an inaccurate term to use, apologies. Setting that aside, we do actually know it's Mass. We have WOB that it's Mass and that it's based on Higgs Field manipulation, which is as close to literal Mass storage as they can do without opening too many practical issues like variable Bone Density. That's also how the math on all this conversation about Conservation of Momentum operates: in free-fall changing his mass alters his velocity by m1V1=m2V2. That being said, it could go either way on if Lashings affect or bypass the Higgs field, given that we dont know a whole lot about the inner workings of either, but they are definitely interconnected. The Higgs field is (when dramatically over-simplified) what imparts mass and thus regulates gravitational force. There is a very strong possibility that the Gravation Surge is going to get explained using the same mechanisms. In other words, one reasonable explanation of how Lashings work could be that Lashings are manipulating the Vector Direction (and magnitude via multiple lashings) of the Higgs field, which would directly interact with F-Iron's same control mechanism ( a Double Lashing means Double teh Higgs Field, with Double the amount you could Store). On the flip side, the explanation could instead be entirely Realmic (Connections, etc) that bypass Conservation entirely the way Soulcasting can, at which point it's anyone's guess how they'd interact (and it would be more likely to vary by Skill and Cognitive perception).

So there are well documented reasons why the physics are against you when using F-Iron Tapping to get too much free speed or force, but far fewer limitations on the Lashing side, since that grants the ability to directly multiply the gravitational force as opposed to the Higgs-based weight manipulation of F-Iron. Im not sure Im willing to make too many assumptions on the Investiture exchange rate between Feruchemy and Stormlight for efficiency calcs there are definitely some fun Combo maneuvers. As a basic attack idea, you can increase Weight via F-Iron proportionally with Gravity via multiple Lashings to get the same apparent velocity response with a devastatingly incongruous force in the final attack; You'd really want plate to survive throwing this punch, or else use Harmonium and Gem Fabrials to make a warhead. Another combination effect that is worth mentioning is that even without actual Twinborn Compounding, the combination should absolutely allow the Feruchemist to Store more weight per second than they otherwise could. F-Iron has a fundamental limit on storing: You can only only store up to your actual weight. But if you are storing while also under the effect of multiple Lashings, you should be able to store up to the maximum of you new Multiplied weight. Wax always walksa round at ~75% weight to keep a steady flow storing and make him more physically maneuverable, but with this combination he could do the same thing and be storing several times his weight. This is essentially another Investiture Compounding Hack that uses Surges and Stormlight rather than Preservation's Allomancy.

We have been told that Hoid has ways of hiding his presence from the Shards despite many of them wanting less than nice things for him. That being said, he's taken a bit more central role on Roshar being the Kings Wit, giving the Radiants drawings of the Heralds, etc. and we know that Odium has his Uber-Diagram of the on-going events, so I have to think Rayse is at least aware of his meddling, even if he perhaps cant pin him down at any given moment.

There's no reason a Child couldnt bond the spren given that Shallan was bonded to Pattern by age 11. That being said, Soulcasting seems to be the surge that arrives later (at least for Lightweavers) so the Child in question is likely to need to get a few Truths under their belt before they get full access to it. By the time a Child is emotionally mature enough to Swear those Ideals/Truths, the argument could be made that they are not really Children any longer, despite their years.

Shallan was indeed making solid illusions at the end of OB, and this WOB seems to confirm it as a Resonance of the Order, and one fo the more straightforward examples. That would imply that each order has a completely different process for creating Plate. How would that work?