Blightsong

I agree that many of the concepts for the magic on Roshar involve Spren (I think I have mentioned this, but I don't think the physical bond seen in Fabrials and the spiritual bond seen in Surgebinding should be compared. Just because we call them both bonds does not mean that they are similar realmatic processes and I think that this has led to the misconception that they are realmatically similar processes) but I don't think an apt comparison would be metals or Aons. Both metals and Aons are kind of irrelevant to the actual magic. For example, someone could use Allomancy without metals by, say, using Stormlight to power their Allomancy. None of the magics on Roshar could be used without the Spren bond being present, there is no substitute. Getting Stormlight from gemstones, however, doesn't need to be apart of the process, someone could use some other form of investiture to power their Surgebinding or their Fabrials (presumably). Do you get what I'm trying to say, it's a bit of an abstract concept. I know I'm being nit picky, but I think that these kinds of distinctions are important to make when trying to learn more about Realmatics.

The bonds seem more related to initiation then they do to keying in investiture. The thing on Roshar that Brandon has said is kind of like metals on Scadrial are Gemstones. Specifically the line "The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs." supports this idea.

What do you mean "the principle Roshar applies to developing manifestations of Inviestiture"? Can you elaborate?

I think it was cymatics. When she realizes that the shattered plains are symmetrical Shallan relates it to the cymatics that Kabsal showed her, so I always thought that it might've been some huge kind of vibration that did what happened. It just doesn't seem likely to me that something falling and hitting the plains, or that some powerful blow, would create a symmetrical pattern like that.

We have other WoB that I can't find right now that is a little more suggestive that he had help. That line about Honor and Ruin that I was reacted is this quote, "4. Preservation, Odium, and Cultivation are gifted with precognition, whereas Honor and Ruin are not." I guess it was just a miscommunication, too much coffee I assume . As for the quote from Secret History (the exact wording of which is "the past deaths were different. They were each a single, stunning event, the god's power shattered and dispersed. This is more like strangulation while those were like a beheading.", the context and person being spoken to's knowledge makes it unlikely that the character speaking meant anything other than the obvious meaning of "single event". I would be fine if the quote said anything other than those exact words. Any kind of process is pretty much the opposite "single event", and what you described in your theory definitely sounds like a process. Yes, in the grand scheme of things long events can be seen as a 'single event', but I would never call a drawn out process, which you likened to a disease, as a single event.

Allomancy is not the only magic system that's like this, the soul will change to accommodate frequent use of any investiture. The heightening are kind of level like, but I'm not sure you would call the heightening a a magic system, it's just the natural side affect of holding large amounts of that kind of investiture. Holding a shard similarly wouldn't be called a magic system. Also, the heightenings don't involve any development of a quality or skill, which is the specific part of the initiation in Surgebinding that I think relates to Cultivation.

Do you have a source for this, I don't think it was the Sprens choice.

Oh, nice, the emphasis pretty much disproves the main idea of this theory, well found.

I remember this WoB, but it doesn't confirm or deny that they are partly of Odium. Brandon has said that they appeared after the splintering because they served as a release for the now wild energy, similar to how more Spren popped up on Roshar after Honor's splintering.

They do do that, here is a quote from WoR during Kaladin and Szeth's fight, "Mist formed in Kaladin's left hand as he raised it to ward, and a silvery shield appeared, glowing softly with light." We have not seen a Listener bond a Sentient Spren, it way not even be possible. This is a bit like saying "Animals could already fly, why would humans study aviation". Maybe, except that from what we have heard from Syl can lead us to believe that they are able to naturally know if they can or cannot bond with certain humans. Syl was attracted to Kalladin purely by instinct. There is no reason to assume that this wouldn't be the case before Honorblades. How would Honorblades have tipped them off that they could bond humans anyways? Like my WoB above proves, the Honorblades don't actually involve a bond. All the Honorblades would have proved is that Humans can use magic, which they probably already knew, not that it involved Spren in any way. This seems to be different from Spren, however, as the Stoemfather was able to directly speak to Syl and Syl indirectly says that the Stormfather is in contact with Spren (by saying that he told them not to bond with humans anymore). It seems Honor is also trying to do exactly what you are saying by sending messages to people in the Highstorms that say that the desolation are not over. Bringing this back to the the Listeners, it would heavily be in Honor and Cultivations interest to tell the Spren if they could bond with Listeners. It would have given them influence among them and generally helped in the desolations. Similarly, Sazed has given Wax information to help him in his schemes. Cultivation specifically seems to have given up, as Wyndle has said, so think on that as you will. I'm sure that Brandon wouldn't mind doing this, but it wouldn't make sense in the story for the Listeners to have decided to put some crack pot theory in their songs. There is no reason for that information to be there if it isn't factual. The evidence in the quote may not be 100% confimed but at least it's actually based in the text and is presented as fact. Your major quote (the one from Brandon about it not being impossible) doesn't actually confirm or deny what you are saying, you just get that vibe from it.

Ere are several reasons I'm uncertain that this is the case. But before I get into those, let's talk about some of those facts. We are not sure that Odium was without help when he shattered the shards on Sel this WoB has led many to theorize that another shard helped him out when he went to Sel. We are sure, however, that all shards are able to see the future to some degree, I think it is unfair to say that Honor and Ruin do not have this ability. On to why I disagree, I think that you are looking at the situation in terms of good and evil too heavily. Wanting to take over the world (which is not a surprising thing for splinters of dominion to want to do) is not strictly evil, or even hateful for that matter. It is power hungry? Yes, but not strictly evil. Why would the Skaze suddenly want to do this after dominion's splintering? Probably because there was no intelligence to control the power's impulses. Skai likely was able to steer the power away from what it truly wanted. We also don't know that all Skaze want to take over, just that some are. Also, if Odium had also done the Same with Devotion wouldn't we see hateful acts out of the Seons? My other big issue involves something that someone said is Secret History. Anyways, this was pretty well put together, let me know how you think what the above does to change your theory.

I don't think we have direct confirmation that it is a mix between but it is so hinted at that it basicly is confirmed. The most relevant WoBs being this and this. I am referring to how the Knights actually advance within the magic system. You don't gain power within the system just by honoring the ideals you have previously said, you have to develop the qualities of your order within yourself and speak new oaths. I think it's indicative of Cultivation being apart of the system that the is advancement at all within the magic system, in all other magic systems you simply have the power or you don't (or can be given it I.e. awakening or dakhor monks), there is no gaining or losing part of the magic system (expect for savantism, which is a natural affect of manipulation investiture and isn't specific to any one magic). You don't just bond a Spren and suddenly have to follow all of the rules, you have to actually be ready to "speak the words". Some orders don't even have specific rules to follow, Lightweavers just have to develop self awareness and be truthful to themselves. The coppermind is an unofficial source with the same knowledge that we have, it is simply a collection of what we already know, and we do not know if Honor's intent specifically involved binding litteraly things as opposed to binding concepts (also, speaking of vague "make things binding" is as vague as it gets). I think I argued this point a bit above already, but in no other magic system is there this sense of development that is a substantial part of the system. As for your comparing AonDor to this concept of mine, we know almost nothing about how people are initiated into these magic systems, so we don't actually know what you are saying in the above is relevant or correct at all. All in all I just think that the above WoB combined with the fact that it intuitively makes sense (to me and others, pretty much the entire forum agrees that Cultivation is involved in the magic system) makes it very obvious to me that what I'm saying is the case.

This reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Knowledge that they cannot form Spren bonds and why does not equal knowledge that story form was a bad idea (although Eshonai's sister straight up did know what Stormform would do and still thought it was a good idea). It also doesn't say that they thought it was a betrayal, but rather that Listeners "Often felt" that it was a betrayal. Someone can feel someway and have it not be true. I could easily see how Listeners would feel that way, beings that they evolved along side suddenly abandoning them for foreigners. They know, logically, that it is because Spren need beings that exist more in the physical realm to form a Nahel bond, but that doesn't change the feeling of betrayal. We only know that Shardblades didn't exist exist before Spren saw and copied Honorblades, this does not mean that they never formed Bonds. As seen with Seons, the splinter's ability to transform into a Shardblade is not a prerequisite for a bond. We also know that Spren never copied the Nahel bond from Honorblades because Honorblades don't actually form bonds, this is a misconception. I understand that the whole "they couldn't do it until they thought they could" thing might be the case, as this concept is key to the Cosmere's overall magic system, but it doesn't logically or logistically make sense that they wouldn't have figured out that they can long ago. It's not like all these sapient Spren are just roaming nomads, they have societies, social structures, and cities in the cognitive realm. We also know they have scholars that likely know much more about realmatics than we currently do, scholars that had thousands upon thousands of years to figure this out. If they could have figured it out, they would have. Also, if it was possible don't you think that one of the Shards would have told them by now? We know that Vessels gain a grand knowledge over the laws of the universe and of their magic systems, so why wouldn't they have informed the Spren that they could bond with Listeners. It certainly would have helped in defeating Odium. I just think that it wouldn't make sense for this to be possible without the Spren knowing by now, and there is in-text evidence that what I think is the case. The quote from the Listener's song pretty much spells out what I'm saying, and I don't really think there is a reason for Brandon to have put that in the chapter headings if it was false information. It just doesn't make sense to me.

The two parties in your analogy have two very important things different about them. People just didn't know what bendalloy was, so they couldn't utilize it. Listeners seem to know why they can't bond Spren. Based on what we know about the Nahel bond (the relevant information being that the bond pulls the Spren closer to the physical realm) and the knowledge from the quote (Listener's are closer o the cognitive realm than humans) we can deduce that Listeners in the past have not had a basic prerequisite for bonding a Spren. It also just logically makes sense. Honor and Cultivation would have known if Listeners could form bonds, and there is no reason they would keep this from the Spren or the Listeners. I also have a feeling that the Spren would have naturally been able to tell if they could form a bond with the Listeners. Syl seemed to be able to instinctively seek out Kaladin. In conclusion, I think that if it had been possible in the past it would have already happened.

I would agree if that quote was all the information we had on this subject, I forgot to link something in the above post so here's the relevant quote from WoR Listener Song of SprenEdit 9th Stanza The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men.[21]

Wait, why do you think that Surgebinding is only of Honor? "The process of trying to acquire or develop a quality or skill." Is a verbatim definition of Cultivation and seems instrumental to the Nahel bond. Not to mention that Brandon has confirmed numerous times that Surgebinding is a result of more than one Shard's power. You say Surgebinding's base concept is binding likeminded individuals and Spren (again, bonding isn't specifically honorable, keeping the oaths is where that comes in. These same bonds happen between cognitive entities and humans on other shardworlds separate from Honor), but this is highly subjective. One could just as easily say that Surgebinding's base concept is advancing one's ideology, One could not form a bond without this. Yes, while the cracking within the soul via physical stress is the mechanics of how it is done, that way of initiation was chosen because of the shard present on world. I also find it kind of telling that pre-Harmony I cannot find one example of someone snapping via mental stress alone, it's always when their near death. Surgebinding, while still using a similar process of filling in cracks in the soul, seems as if it can happen just from mental issues or mental stress. Ohhhh, I thought the 'gem' you ere referring to was their gemheart. Thanks for clarifying. I think the fact that they use gemstones to get the right Spren is kind of irrelevant, the actual biological process is what matters here. This just means that they found a hack in the magic system. I guess I just disagree that it's the same mechanic, we just refer to them similarly, by calling them a bond. In a Nahel bond the Spren and Human's souls are actually fusing together. When a Spren gets trapped in a gem it's isn't being fused to the spirit web of the gem. The gem with the correct atomic make up and color simply is able to be invested with a Spren. What factual evidence do we actually have that putting a Spren in a gem and fusing a Sprens spirit web to a human's is the same mechanic Your not wrong that it's not impossible, but the Listener would likely have to be spiritually different from all past Listeners for this to happen. Current (unless something has changed recently) and past Listeners have not been able to have have Nahel bonds so I guess what I was trying to say is that Listeners of the past could not form Nahel bonds. This technicality doesn't really alter my arguement. Yup, thanks for the clarification.

I agree, but maybe there isn't a too long in this case. I mean, Tanavast held Honor for thousands of years and could have supposedly survived.

I think you are attaching (pun intended) yourself to the idea that Honor involves binding physical things. This just isn't the case. Honor is kind of about binding concepts. I think you got this idea from adhesion being a surge on Roshar, but the surges are Natural to Roshar, the Shardworld. The shard only has power over how initiation (or how the power is gained). Bringing this thought back to your comments on preservation, the above quote also implies that the powers of Allomancy are the fundamental forces of that planet, not an outgrowth of the shard. If you look at the initiation of Allomancy, although, it is intuitive to the intent of the shard. Snapping only occurs during moments of intense self preservation. Looking at other magic systems through this lends you can see almost every magic system we know the initiation for is very intuitive to its shard. Surgebinding is gained by developing a quality within yourself (a definition of Cultivation) and by honoring your oaths (a definition of Honor). Hemalurgy needs to rip apart someone's soul to work, and reduces the amount of investiture within while holding the charge, slowly ruining that piece. You need to endow things with your investiture in awakening to give it a command. Fabrials don't have this kind of intuitive initiation, it's very general, that's what sparked my idea. Where did you get the idea that the Listeners' changing forms is based off of Fabrial technology? They are all able to to do it naturally, they evolved the ability. How is this not natural? Also, we know that Chasmfiends actually change forms the same way that Listeners do. When they mature they go out onto the plains, pupate, and change into adult Chasmfiends during a Highstorm. I would also like to point out that the Listeners could do this before ever being introduced to the various Shard-Spren or before Shards ever arrived to Roshar. Your likening of Nahel Bonds and Fabrials is quite a stretch. The chasm fiend doesn't need to develop a quality, or keep any oaths. You don't need a gemheart to form a Nahel bond. Listeners can't even for Nahel bonds, and likewise Human's don't have gemhearts to change forms with.

Like the above mentioned we have gotten a lot of our information straight from Brandon himself. A huge wealth of this information can be found here.

Introduction This is a small theory based almost entirely around this WoB. Could Adonalsium Have Survived? As the above WoB states, Vessels have the ability to survive their powers being splintered. This led me to thinking that there may be remenents of Adonalsiums consciousness still alive in at least some form somewhere in the Cosmere. It would certainly be interesting if true. Counter Arguements Some information that we don't quite have yet still gets in the way of this being a more concrete theory. Adonalsium could have not been an actual being but rather the developed conciousness of the power or some kind of other force. He might have held the power for too long, and would not have been able to survive not holding the power any longer as this WoB suggests could be the case. Let me know what you guys think.

I don't think her giving the shard to another is even necessary for this to be a thing. INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013 Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim) HOSER Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering? BRANDON SANDERSON Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings. HOSER So he could have survived the Splintering... BRANDON SANDERSON He could have survived the Splintering.

Only the initiation of the magic system bases itself on the Shard, the actual powers are from the Shardworld. This is what originally gave me pause, the initiation of Fabrials don't seem based off of any of the shards present. I think it is more likely to be of Adonalsium, as it seems like life on Roshar has been using that system specifically (not just the surges present on the world, but actually trapping Spren in gemstones for an effect) since long before Honor and Cultivation arrived.

Made a theory about this exact topic last night, check it out.

A specific cut is needed, but that doesn't mean intent isn't. Similar to how you need to spike the right place in hemallurgy, but still need intent. Brandon's quote on Rosharan magic systems: INTERVIEW: Feb 17th, 2016 Calamity-Seattle QUESTION How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?] BRANDON SANDERSON I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. TAGS Roshar, Brandon on magic systems, surgebinding, voidbringing, fabrials, Old Magic,

Are you sure that one doesn't need intent to be able to capture a Spren? I'm not sure if we have found that out yet. I think a good example in favor of my theory (if Listener forms and Fabrials magic are similar) is that Listeners need to adopt a certain mind set to be able to bond a new Spren. edit: Thinking about this I'm more and more certain that intent is needed to create a Fabrial. We have never seen a Spren accidentally trap itself in a gemstone, and it would seem like a fairly large thing to leave out of the story up until now to not show this if it were possible.