The One Who Connects

Finally. Someone other than me who never jumped on the Ishar is evil bandwagon. The biggest thing that kept me from jumping over was Jezrien's words: "Ishar thinks." He wasn't certain. As for the Book of the Drawer, people have pointed out how many paragraphs are between Unmade and the traitor. And the fact that he left the unmade topic and went to kingship. There is still the possibility that his traitor line has to refer to some manner of kingship, perhaps one of the other world leaders or something. It's a stretch, I know. Lastly, I believe the wording of the WoB was that the Oathpact is binding Odium to the Roshar system, but not directly binding him. It has been theorized in another thread or two that the pact itself could bind any wayward shard who happens to show up, and wasn't specifically designed to trap Odium. Sure they are happy that Odium can't escape because of it, but they may not have built it for that purpose.

That makes a lot of sense, and it opens up a lot of new possibilities. You could take a chunk of some material that is beyond the steel and bronze they're used to and shape it into a shield to rival the modern era. On a similar note, say you had a wall made of large stone blocks. You have posited that by reducing molecular cohesion, you could makes things break apart and disintegrate. Would it be within the realm of possibility that you could increase molecular cohesion to join things together? Once they have joined together, they would stay as one piece, just as a disintegrated item stays as many small pieces. You would withdraw your hand and have a uniform wall made of a singular block, almost like it had been Soulcast.

You are half right on this point. With the Hierocracy was the War of Loss, where a person known as the Sunmaker brought the kingdom back together and threw down the priests. It was he who declared that "fortelling the future is devilry." In essence meaning that he changed Vorinism. Also, yea it takes a while to properly wander the forums, the wiki and other info sources. It gets better with practice. 1) See Sunmaker point above 2) I had forgotten that Syl had any commentary on the subject. Given that Honor says that Cultivation is better at future sight, I imagine that her "not of Honor" is exactly what it says on the tin. 3) I assume that acting on what you saw is allowed, because what purpose could seeing the future serve if you cannot do anything about what you saw? 3a) Mistborn Spoilers We posit that Shards whose Intents allow for patience and forward thinking have better future sight than others. While you may not get Shard level visions, I imagine someone who is more patient and forward thinking may have some form of better visions than impatient people. My point being that someone forward thinking enough to peer further into the future wouldn't be content to just accept that what they saw will happen, they will try to make sure it does/doesn't. 3b) I'll give you the tropes. There's only so many different ways you can handle a concept in literature.

I am curious if this example Brandon has used affects your understanding of the Cohesion Surge in any way. I mainly ask due to Brandon's use of the word "permanent"

He was more powerful than even a Lerasium Mistborn. But, at the start of his reign Mistborn were more powerful than they are at the end of his reign, and he gave a bead to the founders of the 9 original houses. 9 Lerasium Mistborn, or at least some portion of second/third generation Mistborn all together could probably pose a challenge. Something else to remember is that in the early years, he may not have discovered the secret of compounding yet and had to fill his Metalminds the old fashioned way, greatly reducing his available power to draw from. I realize that I went away from explaining a possibility to you and started trying to rationalize for myself a way that TLR "was even flayed once, near the beginning." He had to have been underpowered in some way to have been held down long enough to do that, but powerful enough to survive and maintain his rule.

According to this, Alethi (though he doesn't specify Women's script or Glyphs) and Thaylen do share a common root, albeit a distant one. It does not appear to be related to the Dawnchant though. Of additional note is that nowhere in the reddit conversation, or the forum thread it spawned do they specify if these language family trees are along spoken lines, written lines, or both. So the relevancy to this thread may be limited.

Granted, your statement is not wrong. But Taravangian could have united with Dalinar, so it isn't that he didn't want to, but that the plan says that he can't because of Dalinar's actions. For the purpose of the thread, this means that at one point, War was not inevitable.

Shardblades sever the spiritual from the physical if memory serves me. It would definitely be why they try to avoid it, but it is a step removed from a natural decapitation

Ah yes, the strong and weak force. Now I have even more reading to do... And I will before I make anything out of this idea. But in essence, I asked because if multiple interactions were all involved with constructing the atom, then I could find an easier way of making Investiture interactions part of the process. Now to learn what each force regulates so I don't overstep their boundaries like last time

I agree with this sentiment, and as Spool says, they probably did join the battle. Just like Elhokar, our own medieval kings went on the campaign and joined the fight. As "Honor's Chosen Warriors," I have no doubt that the Heralds would do the same. On the other side of that argument, any/all of the KR Orders that joined the fight have a logistical aspect they need to deal with, sometimes several. Sorry, tangent. On to how I see the Orders in a Desolation (because that's the original question) Windrunners - They, or their squires, could be involved with leading and/or directing the non-Radiant military forces. As 2 of their Ideals deal with protecting, I almost feel like a fair portion of them would be the last line of defense, rather than in the fray. That said, the powers and mobility displayed by Szeth and Kaladin would be a great asset. Drawing projectiles away from less armored individuals, using adhesion to slow/stop advances, lashing boulders at the enemy, maybe even launching a Thunderclast away if enough Windrunners lash together. Skybreakers - Military Police. With lashings to fly and the Division Surge to rain destruction from the sky, they could function like planes on a bombing run. And if any are near Szeth's skill with a Shardblade, they could drop into the fray like paratroopers and make holes in the enemy lines. Dustbringers - While they lack the aerial capacity that Skybreakers have, they can use slicking to quickly navigate the battlefield and blast the enemy with destruction and fire, and just as quickly get out of harms way. Edgedancers - Field medics. As Lift's skill with slicking has shown, her Order has skill at getting to places they need to be, and quickly. Reduce friction with the air and you can reach an injured ally much faster than a non-enhanced doctor could. On that same subject, that extra speed could make them quite good at dealing with Thunderclasts if the need arises, or defending the medbay (though there would likely be a Windrunner on standby) Truthwatchers - If they are being used as medics, they stay closer to base. While they are likely forbidden to directly speak of any future sight visions, I still feel that at least one would try to indirectly help out the Strategist at the command tent. Lightweavers - Supply via Soulcasting. *We often forget there are normal men on the Radiants side that need equipment too* Espionage (if applicable) which Shallan seems to have a knack for. If they can somehow spread misinformation, that plus their Illusions can have a tremendous impact on how a battle turns out. And as Windrunner brought up, Morale. Elsecallers - Supply via Soulcasting. There has to be a way to Elsecall more than just yourself, since dropping off more combat oriented troops around the back for an ambush is a strong tactic. Given their role as Spren diplomats, they could also be involved in crafting Fabrial-tech. Willshapers - We don't know enough about this Order for me to really say, but Transportation is still a useful ability. Of special note is that per Taln, Kalak (the Willshaper Herald) would teach men to cast bronze, and steel if he had enough time. Perhaps that might play into this somehow. Stonewards - I always saw them as being Tanks (the MMO type). Front line troops that can take a beating, but dish out a lot of pain while they do it. Taln's aptitude at facing the impossible and winning, even if he died in the process, heavily painted my mental image of this Order. Bondsmiths - One stays at Urithiru per WoR. I see the other two as a Front Line General and a Military Strategist. Front Line is like the Blackthorn, leading the charge and smashing the enemy. Strategist directing the battle from the command tent.

@Pagerunner @elezraita I forgot about the "not naturally occurring" part, and foolishly brought up how the non-super cesium occurs to show that it could easily have occurred within that 350 some odd year timeframe since harmony ascended. Feel free to ignore that. Pagerunner: 1) The Investiture related reactions. Didn't mean to imply that P+ to P- was any different than normal + to - I meant it as Ruin Protons would only pull in Ruin Electrons, and not electrons in general. Also, I hadn't considered that the natural force might be stronger than the Investiture one, which would make R&P repelling less of a stability issue than I assumed. 2) The periodic table I used as reference stated that "mass numbers in parentheses are of the most stable isotope" so tired me forgot that the rest are average mass numbers. If I rounded my numbers to the nearest whole number, adding Co and Ni is still 13 short of Cesium, but that is besides the point. 3) See top about "naturally occurring." 3a) No, I wasn't implying that gaseous Harmonium can decay into solid form. If we had any precedent for the vapor form of Investiture condensing into the solid form, then by all means we can take that as what I meant. I don't think it does, or else Lerasium wouldn't be as rare as it was. Elezraita: 1) Yea, I screwed up on that one and assumed part of our physics could be applied to god metals 1a) Xenon oxides can be explosive? Fascinating. 2) My "grav" and "anti-grav" comments were... Attraction and Repulsion escaped me yesterday afternoon and I used terms that I thought people would understand in the context. Upon reread, I may have actually meant gravity when I said it, as less neutrons would mean a reduced nucleus mass, and thus less gravitational pull. Physics overwriting Chem, my bad. I only meant "a repelling force" when I used "anti-grav" so I am fairly sure that I didn't truly mean anti-gravity. 3ish) Before I make another wild assumption, can multiple interactions be directly involved in somethings creation at the atomic/subatomic level? Not necessarily gravity and electrostatic, perhaps some other interactions that haven't been brought in the thread yet. I may have an idea on how Investiture interaction might work, but I figured it's better to ask that question first

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=708#8

I feel like I could earn a Chemistry Degree just from the research required to properly discuss what is going on in this thread. That said, what I do have to add will be more simple terminology, as I do not have the aforementioned degree in Chemistry. (Or Physics, since several lines end off in "this goes into the physicists territory..") So without further ado, what I have gathered and understood in this thread, in simple terms for easy understanding and quick correction. Note: I gave them Atomic Symbols for easy abbreviation Harmonium (Hm) atoms may be made of atoms of Lerasium (Le) and atoms of Atium (A). At the very least, the subatomic particles; Protons (+), Neutrons (0), and Electrons (-) are made up of Investiture from Ruin (R) and Preservation (P) Alkali metals (Cesium, Potassium, etc..) are very reactive because their outer shell only has 1 Electron. It stands to reason that Harmonium, being a "super-cesium," will also follow this rule. In the original post of this thread, it is theorized that the outer electron is a Ruin Electron, meaning that the Nucleus has 1 more Ruin Proton than it has Preservation Protons, because of Harmony wanting to offset his extra Ruin Investiture. Electrons, being negative, are naturally pulled to Protons, as they are positive. Negatives are pushed away from other Negatives (other Electrons in this case). Ruin electrons also push away from Preservation electrons, which makes the outer ring on electrons even less stable. This also follows for Protons made of R&P. | R- is pulled towards R+ | P- is pulled towards P+ | R- is pushed away from P+ and from P- | R+ is pushed away from P+ | I have made the assumption that a Ruin Proton(R+) will only attract a Ruin Electron(R-), and the same for Preservation. Given that normal elements want to be in a state of balance (keeping the # of Protons equal to the # of Electrons) it makes sense that it would want the # of R+ to equal the # of R-, and the same for Preservation. @Pagerunner, as the OP, has theorized that Harmonium is quite literally "super-cesium", atomic number and all. Cesium has 55 Protons, so if it is a combination of Lerasium and Atium, they have to have a 1 Proton difference, to keep with the uneven/valence electron balance. Meaning that Le is magic Cobalt, and A is a magical form of Nickel. Cobalt (27 Protons) + Nickel (28 Protons) add together to Cesium (55 Protons). There is an issue with the Atomic Mass however. The stable masses of Co (58.9) and Ni (58.7) add together to 117.6. Stable Cesium has a mass of 132.9. This is a difference of 15.3 units of mass (mostly neutrons). I do not feel that the reduced "gravitational" force of the nucleus could overpower the "anti-gravitational" force of R+ and P+ pushing away from each other. This is my personal opinion with what I remember from high school, and is probably incorrect in some way. @skaa has brought up the comment of "city destroying bombs" (which drove the in-story reactivity testing IIRC) and theorized that in reference to that, Brandon is implying the metal is one with nuclear potential. They have narrowed it down to 2 possibilities. 1) The extra reactivity of R&P Investiture has made cesium capable of going nuclear. 2) The increased reactivity of R&P Investiture has made a non-alkali element appear to be alkali when reacting with water. I am proposing a different idea, which.. somewhat works around the problems in the prior solutions. (It likely has it's own problems, so feel free to point them out) Cesium-135. It has low decay energy, no gamma radiation, and a 2.3 million year half life, which makes it much less hazardous than other Cesium isotopes. Xenon-135 (where Cs-135 comes from) has a half life of 9.2 hours, which removes most issues about the required time to form our "Harmonium." Xe-135 also has as much as a 90% chance to form stable Xe-136, which could account for Harmonium still being a semi-rare metal to find. Also, natural fission occurs on Earth, so in pre-TLR Scadrial, it is entirely possible that such a thing occurred undiscovered until now. For the purpose of balance, you can keep the uneven split of R&P protons/electrons through Harmony's interference if you wish. I lack the knowledge, and google lacks the easy explanations thus far , for me to comment on the mathematical arguments of Pagerunner and Elezraita, so I won't. Questions, Comments, Concerns anybody?

This makes me wonder. We know he stole his Spike granting F-Atium from the dead inquisitors after Vin ascended, so why didn't he grab an eyespike too?

Kholinar & Stormseat (Emphasis added) Given that they both have eleven sections, is it so hard to assume that they might both have had eleven lamps at one point or another? I agree more with the idea that if Stormseat lacks this lamp, then it stands to reason that the others being locked is connected to this change. Personally, I don't think it is misinterpreted so much as "renamed." Given the intense dislike of Radiants after the Recreance, I would not be all that surprised at an attempt to have Urithiru expunged from public knowledge/record. Secondly, given just how rusting obsessed with 10 the Alethi are, adding an 11th lamp "for decorative purposes" just seems out of place for them.

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Chasmfiend Also, from WoR: The beast filled the chasm. Long and narrow, it wasn't bulbous or bulky, like some small cremlings. It was sinuous, sleek, with that arrowlike face and sharp mandibles. Edit: Also, Shallan. For the purpose of.. joints or something. Spoilered for Size http://coppermind.net/w/images/Chasmfiend.jpeg

This right here is why I dislike the "only sufficiently connected to the Shard to pick it up" concept. However, if he can bypass that with sufficient amounts of power (such as the power used to create the "orb" in Secret history) then it might not be so bad

Compounding is not an automatic task, it need a specific mental image and twisting the regular Allomantic outcome...I am very unsure you can compound while sleeping As a side note, even if he can compound while asleep, he wouldn't. The 10x power you gain is given in one giant burst, the only reason that power is useful is because you store most all of it in your Metalminds so you don't have to manually spend time weaker to have that much power stored up. To properly compound while sleeping, you would have to be able to do the mental visualization to burn a Feruchemical storage, and have the wherewithal to store that massive amount of extra power lest it get wasted, but not accidentally store too much of your natural ability (which is only lethal with some powers, so I may excuse that)

Since there isn't a SoS/BoM Spoilers Sub-forum anymore, I don't think those will need to be in spoiler tags for any new discussion. That said, onto the actual topic: AlloFeru - The Lord Ruler's, and any other Twinborn's method. Tried and Tested. Nothing to argue here. FeruAllo - I don't know if it will be hinged on F-Lerasium, since it seems far too limited to be discovered in world. - The contents of that spoiler tag (The BoM method) is the idea I would support. AlloHema - You've pointed out most every known or assumed side effect/complication with this method. As a note, I believe that an Inquisitor going unconscious from burning an Eyespike is a combination of what you said and the fact that the spike is directly next to the brain. - I can see the concept of burning the spike for a short burst of super energy, that is exactly what burning a Metalmind does if you don't store that 10x power for later. - I don't know if burning a steel spike granting A-Steel will give a second of infinite A-Steel power like you say, but there is most likely something unique about that interaction as opposed to burning a spike of another power. I like the idea, if only for the potential it may have. FeruHema - Per Brandon, Inquisitors can and have used their spikes as Metalminds, so the systems can definitely interact. -Regarding your spoiler tag; I think that your spiritweb might not allow you to use the power after you remove the spike. That said, using the BoM method does seem to bypass this limitation, so it may work in theory. HemaAllo & HemaFeru - It appears that you are implying that Compounding through Hemalurgy is basically adding spikes of that same power so that they stack. I can see how that idea can come around, A-Bronze & H-Bronze are how Vin can break a Coppercloud. - I don't exactly think that it works the same way for making your Feruchemy more powerful, but I also don't think we have an example of anyone doing this either. Multi-Compounding Note - It is quite doable, but with some limits. Miles in Alloy of Law basically perpetuated a cycle of AlloFeru by burning a Metalmind, storing that 10x power in other Metalminds, then burning one of those for even more power. If any of the other 5 methods on here work, they can likely be perpetuated in that way. If you want to cross between methods, the ones that end with a burnable metal or a filled Metalmind can be used in the methods that start with a Metalmind or that burn a metal. Regarding those limits I mentioned earlier: - A Feruchemical form of compounding is limited by the space in your available Metalminds. - An Allomantic method of compounding will eventually reach Mistpoint. - All Hemalurgic forms of compounding are limited by available people to spike. About Your Edit - I am not sure if compounding Nicrosil that stores an Allomantic power would let you compound Nicrosil fueled Allomantic Power. I think it might lose some of its identity as an Allomantic power if it gets diluted by Nicrosil energy. As an aside, if you store 100% of say.. A-Brass in a Nicrosilmind for an hour each day, would those 100%'s stack? - By this I mean, after a week(7 days) you could spend nearly a whole hour being 7 times(700%) stronger with your Soothing. - You may even reach a similar level to The Lord Ruler with this trick, which would be quite the feat in the modern era's.

With coins (or that iron paperweight Kelsier used against the Hazekillers) I don't think you would register the push in time to dodge it any better than if you saw the Coinshot launch it. You'd have to make the connections that the pulses you "hear" are steel/iron, "feel" that the pulses are going towards you, "sense" that what is absorbing the pulses is getting closer, it just seems like to much to mentally connect in the heat of battle unless you are quite calm or very well practiced. We have example of people doing all 3 of these things, albeit either not all at once or in a calm situation. So it is technically doable, I just believe that it would take a large amount of practice to hone this technique enough to become an adequate survival tool

Limits to storing have to do with how much you have to store. (And how much you can store without dying) ie: You can store 100% of your weight, but only that much at a time, nothing more than that. You cannot do the same with something like strength, as your heart will become to weak to pump itself and you will die. As for Conservation of momentum to increase speed... increased speed is increased friction force. That is aerodynamics more than it is weight, so you are similarly limited there no matter what.

I more meant the gold healing would negate him not letting his body restore itself each day by sleeping. The paranoia point was a separate statement. I guess I didn't write it that clearly :|

A thing to remember is that Sleep isn't just "not being tired." Sleep is when your body restores itself from the events of the day (Why intense workouts every day are bad for you), though this could probably be negated by Gold Healing. Him never sleeping might be caused by paranoia, which in turn would make it worse (though given how confident he is in his own immortality, that likely isn't an issue anymore, if it ever was) What other benefits/functions come from sleep? If at least 2 of these things cannot be negated by some manner of Fullborn trickery, then he takes naps. Otherwise, it's anybody's guess

As Splinters of Odium, the Unmade are likely a personification of some aspect of Hate. (This is very Greek/Egyptian mythos now that I think about it) Anyway: Hate (like any powerful emotion) can make you do all manner of things, some of which don't always make sense to anyone else, but you can justify it. Perhaps one of the Unmade is personified as the aspect of Hate involved with Jealousy, and wants nothing more than to usurp Odium and be the feared villain, or some-such title.

I agree with what you say Yata, but wish to add something to this line. I believe that when Marsh mentioned sensing what emotions they are affecting, (as the OP brought up) he was saying it to Vin as a reason not to just use Copper to avoid being affected. Meaning that he implies that you can tell what emotions the Soother/Rioter is affecting when they are trying to affect You. It's a minor change to the point, but in essence, it changes the whole story of what you can do as a Seeker.