Kasimir

[OOC: As requested, I've changed every 'Faleast' occurrence to 'Derrick'.]

Whoever had named Terrific Birthday Disaster had committed an act of child cruelty. [OOC: Not exactly my opinion and not directed against you, Shining, but man Araris what were you drinking...and can I have some of it? ] Welcome to Tyrian Falls, I guess. Whyever the rusting hells so many parents had collectively decided to name their children TBD was beyond me. For some reason, a tiny suspicious part of me wondered if his Lordship'd had a hand in things. Seemed as like to come out of his sense of humour, or what passed for it, if you asked me. Work for a man long enough, fight with him, and you get a sense for how he is. Thing is, I'd've said that about Etam for a long time. Looked like my thoughts were returning to Etam today. Figured it wasn't surprising. Man'd just died, after all. I'd been taking a walk, outside the local watering hole, and now I'd retreated there like a wounded beast to its den, a bottle of Dyring's brew in my hand. Just a little, to help me think. Just a little, to take away the edge, I figured. Some of the Village'd been engaged in a lively discussion about whether or not we should be keeping the eyes peeled for any Spiked. Waste of time, I figured. Tipped the bottle to my throat. Say what you like about him, Dyring makes the best aquavit in town. Only borderline legal, but borderline's good enough for me. Edvan Tyrian'd never, ever liked the idea of uninformed suspicions. Keep your own view, and I most certainly did, but I'd figured you'd've a better chance of stopping an ashfall with your breath than getting the likes of Edvan Tyrian to change his mind. 'Course, maybe some of that talk was for the benefit of the new faces. Though sometimes, I didn't know if they were new to Tyrian Falls. Maybe the drink was doing a bigger number on me than I'd figured. [OOC: Not interested in that voting discussion. Think it's useful to let the new players know that the consensus position is not represented by TUN's view and is captured by Araris's, but no one is going to change TUN's mind at this point and I consider it a tangent at best.] 'Course, a few people'd been sticking out feelers. Asking me all careful-like, why I'd said maybe that Derrick* [OOC: Ashbringer] chap was maybe a Spiked among us. As if I believed that, so early into this dance. Wasn't that much in my dotage, no. [OOC: @Ashbringer - Let me know if he's publicly known as Faleast and I'll edit the character name if necessary but I get the feeling you're not running AraRaash openly this time around.] Thing is, Rylim Libran [OOC: Bookwyrm] seemed new to this business. Probably something about the nobility keeping their young apart from the rest of us, as though being skaa was something you could catch. His Lordship, he was good about this. And maybe I hold it against them as don't. Still, thing was, I'd been pretty ready to say I figured Rylim was on the up and up. Asking people how to go about this business of finding Spiked, voicing suspicions...well, that didn't seem to me like the sort of thing the Spiked'd do, if you get my drift. Figured they'd have their own ways of talking. Back in Luthadel, anyone wet behind the ears in a crime ring doesn't just ask an ordinary skaa how to go about burgling, if you get my drift. Be lashed for that. No, they ask their fellows. Thieves have their ways about it, you can be sure. So that was a good point, a point in his favour, that Rylim did. Still, I figured there was something that wasn't making sense to me. Thing is, when you deal with them as green as grass, sometimes you want to be sure. Stack the deck, gather a bit more information so you feel comfortable about what you've been thinking, you ken? Figured that with Rylim being so green they'd sell him in the apothecary, and Evenlyn Royale [OOC: Cinnamon] being supposedly just as green, but I had my doubts about that one, she moved and talked like someone as seen this sort of crem before... Well, I figured there was something to be gained in adding my own quiet whispers to their talk about Derrick*. ;eyes; [OOC: Stick] (and whoever had named that poor sod deserved to die in the Deepness for ever and ever!) [OOC: See disclaimer about TBDs] had slightly jarred this by voting for Edvan Tyrian, but I figured not overmuch. Edvan Tyrian was condemning himself, and I doubt anyone felt he was like to keep his voice there when he stood in danger of the hempen jig. Still, the thought was something like this. Seen enough greenhorns get jumpy, get twitchy. Hard to be comfortable running off so little, and I judged that as was common, their suspicions of Derrick were paper-thin. Couldn't be helped, of course, nature of the beast. But suddenly being one of the voices who'd condemned a man to the noose...that sort of thing made greenhorns twitch, maybe. Figured it was worth taking a look. Couldn't rightly have said why, either. Something about it nudged me there and I'd learned to listen to my gut a long time ago. But that was the rub. Someone as new as Rylim, I figured he wouldn't have the steel to damn a man to the noose. Fact was, Rylim hadn't blinked at all, and he'd ample time to do so. Wasn't until Derrick'd questioned him, that Rylim'd entertained other thoughts. That didn't ring true to me, not with how green Rylim was supposed to be. [OOC: I regret everything about RP style. In translation - I've gone on record in a few early PMs as stating I lightly/potentially V!read Bookwyrm for that opening with defeaters. I voted on Ash not because of Ash but because I wanted to get a gauge of how Cin and Book responded to that vote turning their votes into likely lethal ones. And sort of gut about taking a look there, which might always be informed by players pushing the new card - for which I blame LG5. Cin's reactions so far are a bit more seasoned than raw new player, but Book's opening was very much screaming newness and I was hopeful to get a slightly more honest response from Book. My judgement was that if it was E/E distancing on anyone's part, I'd potentially expect an early shift when the stakes still are low, since there's not much of a competitor train. Aware of the current Elim team meta though. Cin digging her heels in there makes me think she might not be E/E with Ash, though I am not confident in this judgement. I am more interested in Book staying put. In a V!Book world, I don't really judge he has reason to know whether Ash is Village or not, given Ash had made one post prior to that, though some after. I'd expect a player this uninformed about voting to be a bit more twitchy about potentially being a vote on a lethal train that killed a Villager (since V!Book doesn't know whether Ash is V or E) and to go elsewhere. As much as we say that Villagers shouldn't care about looking suspicious, I think really, it takes experience to develop true Villager dgaf. This is why new players often do not vote, or go for edge voting. Book does entertain the idea of hopping but had repeatedly logged in without much reaction before he was explicitly called on his vote by Ash. That makes me think that Book's reaction, which runs counter to his opening, might be more coached, e.g. by an Elim doc. I am willing to be talked around as I am not confident I am reading this correctly. But this is where I currently am, and I figured I'd throw it to the thread to chew on. As a side note, I'm ? about Cin digging her heels because I genuinely don't know where grounds for suspicion comes from. And that does make me also wonder if an Elim doc would have suggested this route.] I'd heard of the legend of Hyena. Still, I figured that wasn't the sort of thing that you talked about, not without...breaking things. More than they already were. Wondered where that was coming from, where ;eyes;'d seen it. God, I needed more aquavit. Part of me wondered if it wasn't too late to run, too late to drink myself into an early grave at Dyring's. His Lordship wouldn't know, and surely his Lordship wouldn't care. And yet. I sighed. Figures I hadn't drunk all of my principles into sodden oblivion, yet.

[OOC: Maybe I'm just jealous Ash's D&D group is cool and mine is dysfunctional ]

[OOC: You mean he's in the Elim doc? Seems kinda Evil of you, Mat, ngl. Ash.] [OOC: Progress! ]

[OOC: No.] [OOC: Dunno, Araris used to complain my dice always cursed him to be Evil... Fortunately, he's GMing this. Right?]

Terrible Breath Dispensation / Danex Ash [OOC: Edit: New votes added into my own quote. ]

Half the bottle burned its way down my throat. Some of Dyring's brews could strip paint from metal. Still, I figured they were what I needed. Harsh, forgetful numbness. Less of that ache. Less of everything. I'd meant to think about the accusations flying around the village. Like old socks on a blustery day. Nothing really seemed to stick. Wasn't enough that knew Etam well, I figured. Most of 'em knew of him by repute. But such was a far cry from having fought with him. Riven was keeping to the shadows. Watching, as always. Ain't ever known a man as apt to watch as Riven. Can't always say I know the game he's playing, either. Still, figure that Riven was the sort of man you gave a knife to, if you figured you were on the same side. 'Course, the Riven I knew... I'd've said once that I knew Etam. Even trusted him to watch my back. Saved his bacon couple times. Was that stint in Luthadel. Maybe his Lordship remembers. Don't really know there's much worth remembering, though. 'Course, I knew better than to trust Etam, too. Funny sort of world we live in, you let a man watch your back 'cause you have to, but don't really trust him none neither. Point was, Riven was another of that sort. Had a wary respect for him. Was right a couple of turns, more right than a man oughta be. Way I saw it, if Riven hadn't thrown in with those spiked lot, then I figured it was all the better for us. That and history. Always history. No, I figured I'd be looking at other shadows today. Not Riven. Gave him a nod of respect, and looked around the local watering hole. Kept getting distracted, and the burn of Dyring's brew wasn't helping. Still, I kept at it. Made a sort of mental figuring, of where everyone was squinting at. The shadows they jumped at. Didn't know if it was gonna do anything at all. Still, figured you can't begin to look for the Spiked if you ain't knowing what's going down in Tyrian Falls. And here I was, thinking about the Spiked, worrying about them as though they were a problem for the likes of me. As though I wasn't damned anyway. "You're all going to die," whispered Sahren. "Maybe think about saving yourself first, Koren. They made me an offer I couldn't refuse." I flicked some spilled ale at the phantom, and Sahren only laughed. Rust it all. Wasn't much to me if I died. Hadn't really lived the sort of life anyone would miss, anyway. [OOC: I was going to do this in character but ye gods and little fishes the number of people with TBD makes this virtually impossible. ] Way I saw it, everyone was pointing fingers everywhere, and all we had was a right mess. Wasn't a problem with that, not with the sun still high in the sky, and Edven Tyrian as like to stop accusing himself. Still, I figured that maybe I'd best start looking elsewhere than Ora. I'd seen Terrible Breath Dispensation [OOC: Danex] asking a couple of questions, all quiet-like, but hadn't heard aught since. Figured maybe one of the Spiked was hiding in the shadows. Wasn't a good shot, I didn't think so, but at least it was a lead to probe.

Dyring was polishing the counter when I came in. He looked up. "Oh," he said flatly. "It's you." Some of the village was already there. Figured they'd get a start on the crowd, no doubt. His Lordship'd declared everyone had to pitch in, after all. Heard some people tried to make a run for it. 'Course, they were stopped at the gates. Something about no one being allowed to leave Tyrian Falls. Figured, though. Last thing people wanted to know was that there were a bunch of people about to ice other people in the village. Something of that sort puts the hackles up on just about anyone right-thinking. Can't say I liked the idea, myself. Me, I get a bit of an itch between my shoulders when someone's out there as trying to do for me. 'Course, can't say the same about myself. But we choose our own ends, and there ain't no harm in it. Long past my sell-by date, if I'd really had one. Been around, seen enough to know that sooner or later, the knives come out. People get nervous, when things like this happen. Then sooner or later, someone winds up dead and then people really start losing their minds, good and proper, and making all sorts of noise about guilt. One of the guard Wuhrn worked with, said he'd a way of knowing. There's a particular look about the guilty, he said. 'Course, he sent his fair share of the innocent to the hangman. Guess he wasn't as good as he said he was, after all. Dunno how he squared that with his conscience though. Maybe that don't bother some people. Maybe some of us have ice in our souls. Anyway, everyone was making all sorts of noise about who they suspected. Figured it was too early to say for sure, though. Small place like Tyrian Falls, you'd expect them as trying to do for the village to stick out, but you'd be wrong. Betrayal's the hardest part to work through, if you think about it. Don't care to think too hard about it myself. 'Course, that means finding them won't be easy. And here I go again, talking as though I'm not all rusted out, and waiting to die. Blame it on Etam's death. Been soldiering, in the days of the Southern Rebellion. Fought with Etam, his Lordship. Been around and seen enough. Can't say I know his Lordship well, after all this time. But Etam, I'd've said he was as straight as a fletched arrow, and now he'd all gone crooked. Dunno how you can ever really expect that, even after years in the guard. Seen some rust in Luthadel, but even so. Ran into Shadowblob on the way to Dyring's. Can't say I'm comfortable around Shadowblob. Something about her always puts my back up. Ain't like Ora, yeah. Ora's dangerous, and you never really know what she's thinking, with those eyes. Years in the mines, maybe. Some of it seeps into you. And maybe Ora tried to bribe me a couple times. Can't say I like them as thinks a man's soul is up for sale. Don't think anyone's comfortable around Shadowblob, really. Mistwraiths are the stuff of stories meant to scare children, but even a grown man knows enough to fear the mists a little. Memories of the Deepness, I guess. Or just anyone with a lick of sense knows to fear the mists 'cause that's where you run into Mistborn. God help you. [OOC: Nothing especially denoting suspicion in these two paragraphs but there's no real way to write about deescalating on Ora in-character immediately, and I don't really feel there is a way to write about a Mistwraith without at least some 'ok she's part of Tyrian but god do I feel hinky around mistwraiths' going on. It does capture my general sentiments on attempting an immediate read of Devo but I expect this to become a little more doable over time into the game.] 'Course, Shadowblob'd picked up on the mood in the village. It ain't me, she'd said. I ain't working with Etam and the others. 'Course, someone had to be, now. Wasn't that the rub? Figured I knew what her game was, though. Maybe it made me feel just a little less jumpy. Only a little, though. If someone like Etam'd turned, God only knew what this meant. Hadn't felt so on edge since those days in Luthadel. Even during the Rebellion, least we knew who the enemy was. "Yeah," I said to Dyring. Pulled out some coin. "It's me. Got any of the old cure?" I work, of course. Hard to drown yourself in drink without clips. Small things, things that need doing. Sometimes, someone needs me to poke around, ask questions. Pay ain't great, but it keeps me going. For now. Can't really be asking for more'n that.

Curses, Edven Tyrian was saying. Yeah. Damned straight I believe in curses. Sometimes, no matter what you do, no matter your intentions, it all goes to hell anyway. Just like dropping a rock into a pond. Ain't nothing you can do. The place the rock wants to be is down, and wishing ain't going to change a thing. I remembered that ward in Luthadel. You should stay here, Wurhn was saying, all over again, and damn him for a fool, because them such as he should know better than to try to save me. Tyrian was never good to you, was it? I felt the tight pain in my throat, the emptiness in my chest. I didn't know the words to tell him. Make him understand that I knew it was a curse, damned right it was a curse. My pa'd died, drowning in the wrong sort of water. And I knew I was gonna die that way too. Didn't make a lick of difference, no matter what his Lordship wanted. Thing is, time does some awful things to you. Maybe it'd been kinder to his Lordship but I didn't think so. Hadrian Penrod wasn't the only one feeling that sense of wrongness at Etam's death. Fight alongside a man, and finding out years later that he'd died some way or another just brings it home to you, like nothing else can. Tyrian was never good to you, was it? Better than I deserved, I never said to Wuhrn. I was feeling it now, in the marrow of my bones. "Of course we're doomed," I said. Sure as the sun was gonna rise. I could just see Sahren, grinning over Edven's shoulder, spikes glinting in his vacant eyes. Seen enough horrors in the city, walked over enough slaughter that I didn't blink. Didn't flinch for a second. "Sometimes, that don't make no difference, does it?" I kicked a pebble loose from my boot. "That's just how it's gonna be." I walked away. The dust was caking my throat and the sunlight was glinting too bright in my eyes, turning everything into bright glittering shards all over. Damn it all. I wanted something to drink.

[OOC: Says you. Don't listen to the liars! Here in SE, on the very first day, we slam down votes with a seeming casualness but these are carefully-crafted Heron(TM) votes, meant to fish out truth and falsehood from players by luring them into dropping their guard and then pouncing when they make the slightest action or statement that reveals their True Intentions and Likely Guilt (TM)! Indeed, we are such veritable specialists at the Random But Not Actually Random Cross My Heart Please No Spike Hope To Die (TM) early votes that all SE games are functionally won on the very first page of the very first day! Checkmate Elims! Yea, these first votes have already sealed your doom and there is nothing you can do to change the outcome. You have been thoroughly outplayed and outfoxed. Whatcha gonna do now :eyes: For these are no mere votes. These are Heron(TM) votes, meticulously crafted, hand-selected, and weighted for potential effect on the thread and on the target of the vote. In fact, I'm so certain* that these votes are of impeccable quality that if you don't like them, you can go bother @Araris Valerian for your money back, because you sure as hell ain't getting a refund from me >> *Neither Kasimir nor Heron Industries, whom he represents, assume responsibility or liability for any damages, mental trauma, MLs, losses, Tyrian Curses, and other potential externalities from taking his sales pitch seriously. Shame on you. You should know better >> ]

Mine is the one to the left in this photo, a cracked acrylic called Moon River. Fair point, I'll go see if I have a cartridge that fits. In theory, Chinese pens take international cartridges but sometimes things are a big dicey. But I do know that this pen can be eyedroppered so in the absolute worst case, I'm thinking of eyedropper filling it partway with some testing ink and see what happens.

PenBBS 480 - with a standard PenBBS RM nib, but I had reswapped that nib in, which is why I had felt the need to check seating and housing. Could do a photo but not immediately as it's very late for me right now. I also want to test the converter issue first since if that's really the problem, then that's quite easily solved. Edit: Nib is friction fit, I had swapped out the original nib to try a nib ground by a local nibmeister-in-training, swapped the nib back in.

I staggered out into the street. I glared blearily at the light, stabbing into my slitted eyes. Rusting light. Did it have to be so rusting bright? There's a quiet peace at the bottom of a bottle, they say. Lasts you 'till the few minutes it takes for the ache to return, for shame to burn deep in the pit of your belly. Then you reach for the next bottle. Eventually the night passes in a bleary smear that you can't quite remember. It's better that way. I don't recall how many bottles it took for Sahren to disappear. Spikes driven into his eyes. I grimaced, and shuffled along. What a bloody gruesome phantom he was. I'd drunk with worse demons. Some of them, as it turned out, were even what passed for nobles these days. That was how I heard about Etam. "...found Etam," one of the villagers was saying. "Had a spike stabbed through the front of his shoulder. Damnedest thing, innit though?" Spikes. I shivered. The best way to describe it was that it felt like someone was walking over my grave. I remembered not-Sahren's smile. "You're all going to die, you know," he'd said. Foolishness, that. We're all going to die anyway. I was just taking my time about it. I glanced warily about, wondering if Ora [OOC: Devotary] was anywhere in sight. Never liked Ora none, I did. Something about Ora always put my back right up. Maybe it's the drink, but who knows what the miners dig up? Easy to hide anything there in the darkness of the mines: spikes, bodies...Rockfalls happen curst often enough. "Lord Penrod is demanding everyone pull their weight," someone was saying. I shuffled on. Maybe I could've once, but I'd drunk that man into oblivion years ago. Figured I'd live with myself better this way.

Thanks for the tip! I think I see two cracks in the converter lip. Not sure if they are mould lines but I am going to test with a fresh converter and see what happens. Nearly missed them because my previous converter failures have had issues with the converter body near the lip, rather than the lip itself. Definitely not a seating issue - the piercing post is clean. Will report back on the results.

C/C - it drips as soon as oriented downwards or tilted downwards, yes I have and use a loupe. I mention the JoWo because of the JoWo cracking epidemic that still affects some JoWo nibs housings, but I'm not finding the same stress/crack lines on the PenBBS housing that I do on the JoWo housing.

Word came when I was drinking in the local hole, trying to put myself several feet under the ground. Drowned in the wrong sort of drink, my ma'd always said, her lips pressed together in disapproval. Was all she ever said of my pa, and once I'd thought I'd druther lose my good left hand than touch aught to drink. Didn't want to run towards the same type of end as my pa, drowning the long way around. Guess I don't mind it so much anymore. Dyring makes a good aquavit, the sort that burns your throat and numbs the edges of the great big nothing that finds its own way inside of you. We all have demons, see. Sometimes, you want to do summat. You want to face them, wrestle them until the sun's light kills them, makes them retreat so they can't do aught but crawl beneath your skull, whispering. Sometimes you know to the marrow of your bones that nothing hurts, even the nothing hurts, and you'll do anything foolish like drink it away until the night is spinning behind your eyes and the setting sun washes the town in blood but the nothing aches all the same and you've burned a hole in your pocket again. It was that sort of night again. See, there'd been rumours before that. Always whispering, always talking, everyone is. As though we're like to collect words, rumours from the traders, and set them in a neat row and say we know summat of the world. Word was, the Lord Ruler'd gone to put down an uprising, and people were more tetchy than usual. Wasn't sure why. It wasn't our problem. The further God was from us, the better. If there's anything you can put your hand on in this world, it's that. Sahren sat down at the table in front of me, spikes driven through his eyes. They buried him last week. Worms nibbling at his guts. Think I threw up at his funeral. Had been blind drunk the night before, trying to hold off the screams. Trying to bury the knowledge I wanted to shout from the rooftops, scream until they buried me, drowned me the wrong way around. "They'll kill you all." GOINGTOKILLYOUALL. Sahren smiled. "You're all going to die, you know," he said. I spat. "Hell with that," I muttered. It's a bittersweet symphony, that's life. Tryin' to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die. Guess I'm giving in, it's Tyrian, I need a distraction so I don't fret myself to death, whatever. Signing up as Koren, a washed up former guardsman and the village drunk.

Anyone have tips on what to do with a nib that's constantly leaking? The housing doesn't look cracked and the seat of the nib on the feed is correct. I'm quite at a loss for what to do with it! (It's not a JoWo but a PenBBS.)

I seem to recall someone mentioning that Scriptorium Pens warns about this as a potential issue if you ask for a clip or roll stop. Either that, or it was a consideration she had when doing so. Tell me about it... I would be less worried about the Kakuno I think. Kakuno seems to have a fairly good seal. But this is purely anecdotal - I have two. After more than a year, finally picked up the Nakaya That Was Promised, thanks to the windfall, and the generosity of friends and family: I don't think I can ever bring myself to shell out that much for a pen, and I'm really, really grateful that they all did. The design is one I find personally meaningful, and the nib is a joy to handle. That's it for me as far as most major pens are concerned. I might pick up a curiosity here and there or a nice colour but I expect I'm mostly done. If I were to ever consider a pen a Grail, this was mine, and I'm satisfied. I write with it daily.

Let's make this official - I'm asking for a spec doc. Very torn and tempted as this is a Tyrian game but my dad has been having health scares for the past couple of weeks, and I don't think I could focus on the game or forgive myself if something happened while I was distracted.

I think my ordering would be more or less some variant of Illwei / Turtle -> Turtle / Illwei -> Archer/Symph. Since the start of this cycle, I've probably flooded Ash with fifty+ different PMs on which way I think I'm leaning for pretty much the entire suspect pool. But fundamentally, I'm at the point where I think I've thought it through and gone through enough indecision that if not stopped, I will rethink anything and everything. That is not helpful. I am not going to do it. The basic considerations are still this for me: Mat and Wiz are off the table. I've explained why until I'm blue in the face, and frankly I am not going to keep on doing so. Unordered: D1 and JNV's repeatedly pursuing Stick D1-D2 and JNV's own inconsistencies about Stick don't make E!Stick make sense. D1 JNV-Silho interaction, N2 Silho's tone, and JNV's shifting attitude towards Silho make me lean E!Silho. [Edited to add: V!Silho. I'm tired. I am definitely sleeping now.] Turtle (?) - I've probably promoted and demoted Turtle too many times than is healthy for a single person. I don't fundamentally disagree with Illwei that JNV's attitude towards Turtle seems more indicative of V!Turtle. I do think the willingness to be fairly positive on Turtle compared to basically anyone else is striking. TUN / Archer are a crapshoot. I don't have a strong opinion on who should go where - I currently lean towards the view it's risky for E!Archer to gambit the way he did on Wiz. I also still think that never made sense, V or E, because Wiz's claim was fairly solid. I also find it hard to see E!TUN unvoting D1 - but I accept it was early, and that's why TUN is still in this pile. By the point I finished going through JNV's posts, I am, if forced to give an opinion, leaning V on TUN - I accept that Stick disagrees, but I still think JNV's push on TUN doesn't fully/quite make sense for distancing. Illwei - with Illwei, it's a PoE issue, partly the active player theory she herself doesn't find objectionable, since it is her own working hypothesis when pushing me, partly the fact the Conq NK doesn't really make sense with anyone else, partly her attitudes towards JNV and JNV's attitude towards her compared to basically anyone else who made the same votes, partly the Araris NK also makes a tad more sense, partly the fact she doesn't seem to be interested in good faith engagement but has resorted to dismissiveness to back her position early in the cycle, though late cycle is making me question yet again since that's closer to what I'd expect from a Village baseline. After arguing the point to and fro with Mat for what, most of the first half of the cycle?, I just don't take her D1 votes to be strongly exculpatory, and I'm concerned by her initial inability to recognise that Wiz and Mat should, by this point, be 'last ditch revisions.' As I said in that longpost where I finally voted on Illwei, this is where I'm at. I'm going to sleep now. I'm not interested in litigating this further because I don't think I have any SAN left to go over the next epicycle again, and I've voted where I feel I have to, based on everything that has come out so far. I am fundamentally down for a flip within <Turtle, TUN, Archer, Illwei.> For pragmatic reasons, I am ok with giving Archer a Turn but fundamentally indifferent, Turtle may or may not be slated to be replaced, and I've already laid out my thoughts on TUN. I'm done. Goodnight EDITED TO ADD 2: The simple way to put what I wanted to gauge: I wanted a sense of whether it was a convenience suspicion for Illwei, or insincere, which suggests E!Illwei more strongly. Or whether it was fundamentally a good faith suspicion, which I would take to be more readily emerging from a Village perspective.

I am going to ignore the ad hominem. Yes and no - I don't suggest it if I'm not down for it, since you had better be damned sure you want to say yes if people take you up on it. But fundamentally, I suggested it as a reaction test. To see who was down for it, and who wasn't. To try to do a typology of the responses, if I potentially could at all, within the time given me. And I wanted a clear sensing of exactly how certain Illwei really was: Illwei has been banging the E!me drum since the start of this cycle and categorically insists in her posts that I'm Evil. She has consistently refused to engage with anything I've been saying, so it's been pretty difficult to get a measurement from her that makes sense. Fundamentally, when offered a high-stakes chance to get rid of me, how dead certain is she? How willing to commit to it is she? In addition, in a V!me-V!Illwei world, the best thing for the Elims is a that one-two punch: to lynch me, and then to lynch her. In that world, I'd expected to see a moderate or performative no - can't say that has been that terribly successful. Again, it is truly wondrous, the things one will not see when one does not want to see them. Edited to add: I don't disagree with this, but a four Elim world with a free Coinshot kill is a steep climb for the Village. Four member team is already 28% - 30% is high for an Elim team without some appropriate balancing factor, and we know Xinow as a Coinshot. I'd expect potentially a higher prevalence of kills and protects than we've seen (maybe, to be fair, we haven't had that many flips so we just don't know) in action. Not saying this is impossible, but in the current state of our knowledge/ignorance, pick one, I'd ascribe low probability.

I'm saying that if we work off the hypothesis that the Elim team has an active/noisier member - by the way, a hypothesis you have not in any point rejected until this part of the thread - then by elimination, I'm forced to conclude it's you. I also spent a significant part of the thread trying to decide if I was more sold on E!TUN, E!Turtle, or E!you, or E!Archer, which would constitute two different hypotheses: the noisy Elim hypothesis (you), or the quiet Elim hypothesis (Turtle, TUN, Archer.) If you are green, I am not going to do the damnfool thing of rethinking Mat and Stick. I've rethought them: you yourself think Stick is solid Village. I have outlined exhaustively why I am not interested in rethinking Mat until the heat death of the universe, or until someone FUDs me into doing so, which I will try to resist. The correct thing to do is to reject the quiet Elim hypothesis and to go to the rest of the pool, and then reconsider that. But you're willing to walk it back all the same, and then half-take it back in the very same post, and then rescind it again now. This reads like a convenience claim. Refusal to engage with the post doesn't look that good. You did indicate they're stretches - I will accept that. But you also pointedly placed a whole set of tiers of players below them, including Shining. You cannot fundamentally deny you ascribed them a better read within that post than you did Silho, Turtle, et al. Once again, I quote: There is very clearly another three tiers below, all of whom you clearly ascribe a worse read to than JNV and TUN. All arguments have holes. Yours have holes too. The job of the Village is to ascertain plausibility. The job of an Elim is to poke holes, to sow doubt, to explode the number of possibilities so the Village is overwhelmed. I'm not the one doing that. "You're Evil and your arguments have holes but I don't have time so I'm just going off memory to try to get you lynched but now TUN" doesn't read very Village either. I accept that you're busy, though you're certainly defending yourself stridently. But you are also dismissing my arguments, and this is a continued trend since D2 where you asked me to outline my reasons for V!reading Mat, I did so willingly, and you dropped the issue but continued to subtly resurrect E!me in the backdrop. I've been quoting your posts. Hard to see how that's twisting your words. There's exactly one of us who is actively engaging with past content, and that's currently me. As I told Shining, I don't deny I could be wrong about you. I was when you were Falcon. But how you are going about this only makes me feel you are the correct lynch today. There's a point in every Villager's lifespan where you fundamentally accept the best thing you can do for your team is to flip, leave them your suspicions, and wish them well. You did this as Falcon, though I regret how that entire game played out. I don't see that same willingness here. I see an Elim clinging to life no matter what. We have killed two Elims in two cycles. There is no metric by which we should be remotely worried - we would have to screw up a lot more for the ball to be out of the Village's court at this point. 1. If you insist I am Evil, why do you vote TUN? Why is self-pres more important than killing E!me? Surely your green flip would make me look Evil as all hell, seeing that I am in fact one of two main drivers behind your lynch, and as you acknowledge, Mat is read more V than me. 2. Let's make a deal. If you flip green, I will instantly surrender myself to the lynch the next day, or to a night vigkill. I don't really care, take your pick. Every player here can be my witness. If I refuse, I am clearly Evil and should be lynched on the spot. @Matrim's Dice @The Unknown Novel @Shining Silhouette @Archer @_Stick_ @The Wandering Wizard @Turtle (Apologies if I missed someone, @ them too.) This is not a gambit - I urge you all to ruthlessly lynch me. Any attempt by me to save myself should be considered Evil and met with by votes. We can afford this. I surrender myself willingly. You're dead certain I'm Evil, right? So this should be acceptable to you - the Village is extremely ahead, with two Elims killed. Or how about the opposite? If every player present agrees to lynch Illwei without question next cycle when I flip V, and I bloody mean it guys, no waffling as soon as I'm dead, I surrender myself, once again, as I have repeatedly been offering, to the lynch. If I flip V, they lynch you. No more questioning. No more doubts. You say I'm Evil, after all. The Village is very ahead. There is no way this is not immediately a winning move to agree to this deal. Whoever my hypothesised teammate is, they cannot be as dangerous as me. @Archer - Do you feel remotely worried about vote manip forcing a tie?

Do you now know how I felt against you in C5 of QF62? I think my issue is the considerations don't seriously change, and I feel the immediate willingness to push me and Mat (!!!) in response is classic E!playbook. Aman calls Archer out on a similar play in C3 of MR56 - you can read it, if you'd like. It has an extraordinary amount of insanity, but Aman did serious heavy lifting against E!Archer (sorry, spoilers, but as Stick referenced it as well...) in that game. The disingenuousness and minimisation of the JNV read, on top of the D1 votes (I grant the D1 votes, as Illwei points out, aren't a smoking gun, but they don't exonerate), the N1 and N2 kills, and the fact that Illwei says I have no progression and clearly can't be bothered to at all engage with the numerous occasions on which I've laid out my thoughts and the reasons for changing my mind - I do think something is seriously wrong/odd here. You don't just dismiss the collective posts of a player because they don't fit the convenient lynch narrative you're driving. I accept we could be wrong. I accept I could be wrong. I've been badly wrong many times in this game, after all. Just as I accept we could decide I am the better lynch instead. And the thing is, in those cases, we do our best, and we honour V!Illwei by using her flip to move on, ID the Elims, and get them imprisoned for good. Sounds tacky, but that's basically what happened in QF62. The nature of the game doesn't change. Just as Devo reminded me you were the best option, even though you felt so genuine to me. To be clear, you vote with your own conscience. If you genuinely want to go elsewhere, you should. But I don't think this drastically changes that we have to go there, and I think that the nature of Illwei's defense leaves me with reason for greater concern. IMO, yes. If Illwei flips green, I argue the correct pool is <Turtle, Archer>, possibly TUN if you really want to go there. Then we use what we have, and we begin again. I absolutely will not countenance auto-lynching Turtle. We want to go over the evidence again, using that information to make sense of the gamestate. I don't advise kicking the ladder, FYI. I think the worst thing we can do is to completely restart. So Wiz, Stick, Mat, and you are more or less still off the table for me. JNV's attitude towards Turtle is still weird. But hopefully, Turtle's pinch-hitter (if, I accept, not guaranteed, but I know Ash put out a call and I know Sart agreed and I saw Sart reading the thread) will also be easier to read, and this will give us more information to work with. I expect the NK to hit one of the noisy players, and I do think Illwei flipping green should be a good indicator to look in the quiet pool - consider it a falsification of the 'one active and noisy profile Elim' theory we are now operating under. The reasons behind Wiz, Stick, Mat, and you are sound. (Well, to varying degrees.) There is no reason to FUD ourselves into starting from scratch. This does the Elim's work for them.

A lot of the following will be based off a combination of Illwei's first and second post since I managed to get it to display. Surprisingly, I've spent the last few games mostly Village-reading people, even for flimsy reasons and then looking through whoever's left. You can ask the players in QF62 - [ @Matrim's Dice, @Shining Silhouette, @The Wandering Wizard, @Archer et al] I had substantially more Village reads, even weak ones, and then just a pool of ??? left. Sometimes, I was wrong. I V!read Shining at first for missing that I was a conf!Vil role, thinking no Elim would try to be so bold. That was a mistake. But once again, I've happily offered to put my neck on the chopping block and having done so publicly, E!me would not be able to walk this back casually. There's a reason E!me never really offers to die. And having played with E!Mat and been able to ID him pretty early into QF62, I do feel more confident about my ability to recognise when he's being sus. I've mentioned previously I expected Shining would learn from QF62. I know I certainly did - I let E!Mat and E!Silho and V!Archer FUD me into disastrous reads when I should have defended Danex (and to a lesser extent, Devo) to the hilt because I clearly had good reason to believe in V!Danex and V!Devo. I let them talk me into walking back what should have been straightforwardly strong reads of Danex and Devo. It's not remotely surprising I would seek to do so again. Surprisingly, I've also never been able to consistently maintain RP beyond two cycles tops in recent games this year ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You can ask them exactly how long my Tulkas RP lasted in QF62. I question where this comes from, because you've played with me in Ash's LG where you were Evil, as well as in subsequent games, and I don't think I did more than a single post of RP at the very start before I focused on the game. Hell, you also played with me in MR56. I had a grand total of around two RP posts, one done in the first cycle, and the second in the cycle I died. But lemme get this straight. So I'm sus because I put in more effort and learned from my mistakes in the game directly prior to this where Mat and Silho both nearly collectively got me to make mistakes that would have been disastrous for the Village? I screwed up that game. Devo and TUN were both solid players and the Village MVPs. Devo kept me from error then. It's not remotely surprising I am very motivated to try not to do the same here. But ok. So same question to you as to Shining. You now commit to an Elim among the noisy players: It can't be Archer, because Archer only replaced Symph. You think there's a thread controller, and are committed to V!Mat and V!Stick right now. Conq already flipped Village. So what do you do when I flip Village? Who do you go to next? Mat? Who voted on both JNV and Xino? Whom Xino last-minute voted on, and whom you yourself insisted was Village? I agree with this assessment and have reached that conclusion as well in the longpost. This is fair. So, would you like to give it a shot? As I said, I don't do post reads well. I'm happy for more people to give it a shot. I consider that a terminology quibble. Offering him up for a lynch pretty much indicates you've downgraded him from a green read to a red read, or at least a null. That's movement as well. Araris's N1 response was that the most you get is a tie. Your counter is that a tie leads to one extra death, courtesy of Xino. Araris pointed out that you and Xino would both die after that because ties look awful - that's a disproportionate trade for an Elim. In a three member team world because you'd be connected to Xino: D1 11 / 3 -> N1 11 / 3 -> D2 9 / 3 -> N2 9 / 2 -> D3 8 / 2 -> N3 8 / 1. That's fairly dismal. Sure, we theoretically ended up in this world anyway, a little faster, thanks to Wiz, but losing two Elims is disproportionately worse compared to killing an extra Villager because the wincon is parity. I don't deny you might have been fine staying on a side wagon. Though I question it - people would at least argue it's NAI, as Xino wasn't saveable by the time Conq voted him, And people lurking at EoD tend to get some sus. But the same deal happened in the MR when I was Evil - Orlok made a split second decision and gambled wrongly. Time pressure makes fools of us all. So you now think your vote exonerates you but not Mat? To the point you're willing to go back to E!Mat? I'm not following this. In what world is Wiz the Elim who decided to claim? Symph was offline, everyone has checked in, no one counterclaimed Wiz, not even TUN. There is solid reason to believe V!Wiz and I'm doubtful that you missed it. No Villager who checks in simply allows the claim without comment. Here is my post responding to Illwei conclusively on the matter D2. I've also outlined my line of thought across multiple vote analyses and post analyses, so I think it's frankly rich and disingenuous for her to accuse me of zero progression because I've bloody dumped all my thoughts into the thread. At this point, my main response is: "It's amazing, the things you can not see if you are determined not to see them." The post is thorough (with one exception, which I alluded to D1 and mentioned elsewhere), but I'll outline it briefly again: There is no reason to two-vote bump Xino by joining you. This brings Xino into contention among the lead trains and calls unnecessary attention to Xino when Mat could've stayed on a side-train. Also, Illwei claims that Xino first voted Mat in thread. So here's my question: why? Xino then takes it back and votes for me. But in an E!Mat world, Xino is saveable. Remember, Xino died with five votes - the last two were from Mat and Illwei. In an E!Mat world, there is fundamentally no reason for Xino to vote on Mat. Xino should just vote directly on me, joining Mat who was already there. You can call it distancing theatre, sure, but - to lose a Coinshot for it? Really? Conversely, I found Mat's reaction a bit too quick to be doing the maths - it felt like a genuine reaction, just moving onto Xino. Then, as I pointed out elsewhere, Araris is not remotely a reasonable Mat N1 kill. Mat very clearly stated in thread that he wasn't about to have an early Araris death because of QF62. There's a convention in SE where we try not to keep on killing early players who die early, and Mat is exactly that sort of decent player who doesn't do that thing. All the more so because E!him killed Araris. Moreover, I know that Araris was not terribly happy about being lynched in absentia in QF62. He did mention that in the dead doc (it's an aside, I requested it as I was tired of waiting, ideally it should be uploaded soon) and Mat was dead too, so Mat saw it. I expect Mat to be a player with a decent amount of say in his team's kills. This did not remotely feel like something Mat would do in the game right after QF62. If Araris were a strategic target? Sure. But what about Araris was strategic when Mat could easily kill Conq...Illwei...even me? Araris said he felt D1 cleared him and Mat. Why does Mat kill Araris then? Finally, as I said, I played QF62. (You would know ) I very honestly had a nagging negative gut feeling about Mat from...probably C2, maybe C1 but I can't quite recall if it was that early. I kept on rationalising it away. But as I flagged later on, during C4, I finally hit the point I couldn't keep telling myself I was tripping and Mat was so helpful he should be V. I can't really explain why I felt that way for certain, but I think these things were a key factor: Mat never really felt like he was interested in solving the game. Everytime we tried to narrow down on things, he'd raise more questions. His cases never really felt like his heart was in them. It felt like he was just shoving possibilities at me and he wasn't terribly interested in finding solutions but just convenient votes. The lack of engagement was visceral, and I kept struggling because I'd look at his posts and say, "Yeah but he's saying things." It took me C4 to recognise that: I've never had that feeling this game. Not to this extent. I flagged as much on D1. I can't defend my D1. I've explained what I could, but as I say, I offer myself to the lynch if you think this is the best solution. When I flip Village, I would strongly suggest an Illwei lynch or NK. Please do not let her talk you all into killing Mat. IMO, immediately insisting that the two noisy players on the train that is voting her down are Evil is the classic Elim playbook. I have a tendency to doubt, yes. I don't doubt it's been on display all game. I'm doing my best to solve the game. I think there are points you just have to suspend doubt, because the evidence is crystal clear and the intellectually honest thing to do is to follow the evidence. Frankly, at this point, all I have to say is this: My posts speak for me. I've bared my soul and my thought processes. I've let my doubts be on display. Waffly? Yes. In that I will consider everything. This is normal for me. This was on full display in QF62, when I desperately tried to think about every single possibility that I had in my head. But you know what I do that JNV didn't? I try to come to conclusions. I try my best to make the best sense out of things rather than shrugging. I try, and try, and keep on engaging. I think this game is about the journey, before the destination. Orlok once told me that the best thing you can do as Village is to show your peers your thought processes. I quite agree with him. It lets people understand your thinking, and it helps the Village even after you fall. And that is the meaning of being as Villager. The Village is greater than you. I haven't been holding very much back. Illwei apparently keeps a decent chunk of her cards close to hand. She can't even be fundamentally honest about her V!read of JNV and downplays it. I didn't do that. Whether we are Villagers or Elims, so long as we are alive, so long as we are not permitted to die in this game, we must assume responsibility. If this requires my death, so be it. I've pointed out E!me doesn't kill Conq. I don't kill my strongest defender. I don't kill a player who - I think you'll have to agree - a player as noisy as E!me could use to drive a wedge into the Village, to throw shade on Mat and Stick. I've pointed out I don't kill Araris. Araris, whom I commemorate on death with an oath of vengeance on his killers. Araris, whom I deeply respect and enjoy playing with. Could I kill Araris if he was a threat to my team? Sure. But Araris wasn't throwing shade on me or JNV. So why would I N1 him? I, who, too, saw his comment in the dead doc and understood he had been once again lynched early and in absentia and who knew how he felt about it? Remember I said she can't even be fundamentally honest about her read of JNV? Look at the para Illwei quoted. Now look at the entire post. Highlighted for your convenience, apologies for the colour.

Thoughts? Legit asking because I know I went into a huge doubtfest with you and Shining in QF62 and I needed Devo to keep me solid. On the other hand, Falcon. Edited to add: To be clear, am doubting again, but I am aware the considerations don't drastically shift and also, QF62!Melkor, QF62!Noble...