Kasimir

Hey I talked myself into not voting you, if you're Village you gotta give me some credit for that at least! I didn't - it was aimed at you going for Bookwyrm (and admittedly that earlier vote) since Turtle is willing to vote there. Sort of more of "How does this coherently work for you if you think Turtle is Evil and also Bookwyrm." Unless you've since changed your Bookwyrm thoughts?

To be honest, if you take out the repeats, and the inactive/busy people, it's quite a bit shorter than I expected and the problem carries through the MR and QF lists as well. A lot of the volume comes from repeat sign-ups, e.g. I have four entries, TUN has two, you have two, Ash has two, Steel has two, but functionally these GMs are often not going to be running back to back games. Then there's one-offs from people who haven't shown up in a long time but haven't been formally marked inactive, e.g. Randby, Karn, Tani. Added. Am leaving this one to someone who knows BT rules

I feel there's some LG7 and Heirs bleedthrough for you: you tend to use Hadrian Penrod a lot for Scadrial settings, or a Penrod. But in all fairness, I use the Herons a lot because after RPing so much lore for them in Heirs, and with the powerful SE/Heirs demographic overlap, it feels very natural to cross the streams. Huh, surprising, but makes sense. Guess the more setting-heavy (as opposed to minimalistic) games would encourage this as well. Feels like the implication here is a Shard game that spent time in establishing each world setting might make RP a bit easier. Maybe run it like a spy movie sort of different locale thing. Grouchy Old Porch Dudes?

I'll give this to you - but as you point out, that comes from you saying it. You doing it generates negative Village utility in a number of reasonable, nearby worlds. So do you intend to do, or just say? I'll readily concede that I could wait, especially since if it's V!you, it's probably some form of ploy to draw reactions. And I should have given you more credit for that, for which I apologise. But the point is I don't believe I get to take the fact that it's V!you for granted, and it's reasonable to push you hard as well for something that in my eyes is fairly anti-Village because I want to be able to read you too (since I pretty obviously don't know your alignment), and hopefully to get a sense of other people from how they are thinking about you, and to try to work out their mindset. That's how discussion functions. Here's my question back: what did V!you really expect from your target demographic as being E!indicative? "Sure Archer, please go ahead, I'm V!reading you for this"? Reaction tests often have some sort of thought through endpoint. If you don't know what's a failure response and what's a good response, then maybe you should consider whether it was a worthwhile thing to run in the first place. Final counterpoint: without voting pressure (and probably even with it), did you particularly expect indicative responses from a thread that had been content to, as you say, meme for three pages and not particularly discuss? Anyway, I'm going to relook the thread once more since tweet life is clearly a wash and comment as I go. Reminder that I suck at post reads! I still like this post. High immediacy - I was in the thread as soon as I saw my GM PM and celebrated, and noticed the rule issue and was typing. Wiz beat me to it. As I mentioned, that's the basis for my current V read of Wiz. It's not a powerful read, but it'll do for D1. From how stoked Wiz was to be Evil and in a doc in LG90, my sense is that he'd hit the doc first. The fact that he beat me to the thread makes me feel positive about this. I sort of like this post too, but I feel a bit ? about it - Ash is starting a bit heavier on analysis than he did in LG90. Obviously it's nice to note. It doesn't make as much sense from an E!Ash perspective, I think, unless Wiz and I are in fact Ash's teammates. Fortunately for me, I can reject that world out of hand. (I guess there's a world in which E!Ash was looking for something to say, but IDK, it just feels good he latched onto this.) Never really understood why you want to go HELLO THIS IS A POKE VOTE but you do you I guess. I don't know how I feel about this one. A bit of a rush to stake thread presence, given Turtle sort of disappears later on. I don't quite like it, I suppose. But this is a nice comment from Turtle? IDK, I'll readily concede that with 140 characters, my phrasing wasn't anywhere near that clean, and I could see where that could confuse someone into thinking that I'm just blatantly saying that I'm tempted to V!read Wiz for being in the thread and not in the doc and how do I know that. I like that line of questioning. But it's not followed with a Kas pressure vote, which is sort of what you'd expect to happen if Turtle'd really thought I'd gone and E!slipped there, and that sort of dampens the positivity of it for me. Then again, TUN pretty blatantly gets it, which might be another point of contrast. TUN also does vote me, which makes you wonder if TUN was working off that catch. If so, that'd look a bit better in my eyes. But he doesn't push it, and that makes me think it's more a poke vote. Also, not fond of the Elim jokes - E!TUN seems to be overly fond of them. @xinoehp512, what were you hoping to achieve by the doubled vote? Silho picks this up on the second time I mention this and asks. ...This is gonna be another game in which I basically think Silho is just Evil because of terribad vibes, isn't it >> I don't know: the interaction is like this: I mention I'm tempted to V read Wiz -> Shining votes Wiz -> later on, I reiterate that I do in fact have a slightly positive read of Wiz, and Shining asks to know why and then unvotes. The whole process felt so perfunctory I wondered if Shining was really interested in voting Wiz, but ONCE AGAIN I don't know if I can really make sense of Shining voting and unvoting so readily minus a distancing vote (and Wiz wasn't in danger anyway so why bother) so I'm just going to shrug and squint at Shining and move ON :| Silho is bloodthirsty and chill. Better call the Ghostbusters. The basic result of that long part of the thread: -Silho wants to kill someone -TUN doesn't really want to die -Kas decides it's fine to die with Silho and votes Silho -Silho self-votes -Wiz signs up for death as well It's a meme part of the thread, and maybe up to the middle part of the cycle. Silho has moved into the lead with three votes but has functionally self-voted so I'm not sure that really endangers him. He could always self-pres on someone else, and drop that to 50-50. Still, I do like the chillness with death, but then it's quite easy for an Elim to perform this when little is at stake at the midpoint. Courtesy of Xino. @The Bookwyrm votes Wiz: I could see that as testing Wiz's actual willingness to die, but I'm having a hard time trying to make sense of it. It feels a little opportunistic and a more or less deliberate attempt to smuggle a vote because I'm not sure that functionally makes a difference at this point of the cycle. Bookwyrm also disappears here for quite a while so that just adds to the safe parking vibes. That being said, give Book's still new, not sure that's indicative much. Book, Xino, me, and Shining had all expressed death wishes. More ambiguous for Xino. Why did you vote Wiz, and what did you expect to achieve by this? Blatant poke from JNV. Question for you here - any particular reason your poke/survival vote goes on TUN? What are your thoughts now? Oh yeah. Ash asks about knowing who opened PMs with whom and I don't disagree it's nice to be able to map out player connections. Probably forces the Elim team to decide if they want to go for complete distancing or not, which means resonances are potentially more telling than in an open PM game. Slight V points for that. See: LG87, LG90. What do you hope to achieve from this one? It's interesting to me Ash is drawn to Turtle. I get the sense that he's drawn to multiple other suspicions but picks Turtle so that's a bit ? for me in that I don't understand this but player vote preference is always worth noting especially when implicit (hi Mat! ) Good rule catch and correction here. This is very important because we only get the 50% death if the knife user kills a Villager. This means that the knife may not be as useful to the Elims unless they are willing to roll the dice - their preference will probably be to persuade Village knife-users to miskill or to stay under the radar enough that it happens naturally. Unclear which strategy they're going for right now. Still think it's basically an anti-Village strategy. But I get enough Village off this post to feel uncertain enough to go: Archer. Question: if you're sus of Turtle, how does voting alongside Turtle make you feel? For the moment...TUN.

No way to tell right now. 10's an awkward number for a GM to balance in a regular game - see QF54, which had twelve players, and honestly going Archer-Araris-Szeth was probably still a bit OP and I regret that decision. Village suffered from inactivity and filter losses. This game has: win at parity (+ for Elims), protection from kills (+ for Village), kills (null because you have a 50% chance of dying but slightly Elim skewed IMO due to parity wincon), protection from exe autokill (null/slight + for Village because in the end, it still channels the kill to another unprotected Villager and an Elim might have this as well, allowing bussing), roleblock (looks solidly + for Village but can allow Elims to penetrate protects.) And items die with players. Overall, I consider this a steeper curve for the Village to climb than the Elims, but the ability to equip some Village players with silver dust and tents should balance this out a bit. So two real possibilities: A. 2 Elim Team IMO this world would probably have the Elims be a bit buffed because a single Elim death means the survivor has to struggle to try to win as a solo Elim. This could be in the form of roles, or selecting a stronger team. FWIW, I can tell you there is no Karcher, Ashimir, KNV, Kilho etcetera team this game B. 3 Elim Team Buff would be Village side, because of what I outlined about wins. Expect higher prevalence of tents, silver dust. Maybe not too much, but just enough to give the Village a tiny bit of potential survivability. I might as well come out and say it: lean against this world because I lack silver dust and am prepared to pay for an Elim lynch with my life if necessary. This isn't a strong argument against the three team world since maybe three players with silver dust would do fine. But even then, a Villager death for an Elim death, and an unavoidable one, mind, would be more or less guaranteed. As I've explained, this fundamental exchange makes it, in my eyes, a little rough on the Village no matter what since losing extra Villagers in such a small group-size boots us closer to lylo. (Which, recall, occurs when n(V) - n(E) <= 2.) For this reason, I'm personally inclined to suspect a two player team. But it really doesn't matter because you always play and plan for the worst case scenario, hence the three member team. Edited to add: For the benefit of the mixed group here - yes, you can revise your team projections once you know more, i.e. have closer to full sight of the distro, but at early stages, no. ?

Right, we screw the 140 characters today I said it in the tweet limit. I'm saying it again. This is a QF. This is a fast-paced game. Suppose 3 Elims - C1 10 -> C2 8 -> C3 6 -> C4 4 -> C5 2 LOSE. We lose in four cycles. Since the wincon is parity rather than outnumbering, we lose in four cycles as well in a 2 Elim team world. I welcome if others have different comp speculations, but I'm using the numbers both of us agree on. This excludes: non-voting deaths (congratulations, Archer, in return for a marginal Village read, you've decided to give us a 40% chance of your death, if you really are Village), inactivity deaths (no one for now, hopefully this continues), knife miskills, and Violation deaths. When we make projections, we always work from the worst case scenario. That way, successful protects and roleblocks, if the Village has any, are a bonus. And I'm not remotely confident that every single voter on an Elim is going to be protected with silver dust, meaning they are largely guaranteed a kill when we vote them down. It's not gonna stop me. The vote is our power and we gotta do it. But the sobering numbers have to be at the back of our mind, because the closer we get to lylo, the more the free villager kill is gonna hurt. Simple example: if we're 4-3, voting down an Elim doesn't matter. They kill someone, we vote one of them down, and lose a Villager. 2-2, we lose. That's pretty damned scary either way you look at it, especially since items are lost when players die. This means we functionally lose as soon as we are one Villager more than them unless we happen to have a vig who gets lucky (kills and doesn't die to the 50% chance!) or a lucky protect. You yourself and other players have emphasised previously that refusing to vote or refusing to vote fruitfully C1 hands lynch control to the Elims. Yet here you are willing to sit back during a cycle with no particular urgency, at least one vanity vote ( @Shining Silhouette ) , far too many poke votes that just sat there ( @Turtle) , Harmony only knows what @The Bookwyrm's vote is doing, @The Wandering Wizard seems to have taken the throttle off, and a three way tie, all for the sake of a marginal Village read during the next cycle, where presumably, having offered the Elims a free tempo, and not having a vote or activity track record for the previous cycle, you will finally proceed to leverage on it. How is that supposed to be particularly helpful or Village? You can contend you did the same in QF59. I will happily agree. QF59 was also a game with 15 players, no extra death rules, and anonymous voting, which blunted the effect of your non-voting. Losing tempo to the Elims was functionally less bad in QF59. You can contend you currently just risk a 40% chance of dying. My challenge then is: If 40% is sufficiently low, why shouldn't I believe E!Archer is also willing to risk this? For one, polar bear (MR56 - a bold lie from E!Archer, for our newer players, that thread consensus was that Archer would've had to be suicidal to have made as an Elim just for thread trust. Ha bloody ha.) I dislike the attitude that you need a provisional Village read from this in order to be able to do Village things. You shouldn't be committing to do anti-Village things and getting provisional Village reads off the fact that you don't care about self-pres, and then decide to do Village things. That reads more performative, and more Elim to me. Even if I do not vote you and commit to voting TUN, a world in which V!you dies from non-voting, and the exe takes place, and the NK hits someone, is a world which is a lot more painful for us. Suppose, for the sake of argument, we have two main scenarios: World A: V!Archer dies, ML, NK 10 -> 7 -> 5 -> 3 LOSE If you think there is a three member Elim team, we lose in three cycles in this world. This should be alarming! World B: V!Archer dies, Elim lynched, NK 10 -> 6 -> 4 -> 2 LOSE Here is the nasty part. We lose in three cycles in this world as well! Because if an Elim gets voted out, a Villager is very likely to die via Violation. Either way you slice it, you are pushing for a Village read for yourself and deciding that letting the Elims potentially win in three cycles is acceptable. Yeah, no, that is kayana to me. Don't like my view? Think that's an E!Kas push? Join TUN and lynch me, go ahead. The lynch matters, and you know better. Get your feet wet in my blood. From where I'm at, I'm getting a strong negative read off TUN insofar as I believe he's using the same strategy, or at least the same sort of deflection as he did in both LG87 and LG90. I'm also willing to lynch Archer because I can't see what he is doing as coming from V!Archer at all. I am willing to consider Turtle partly on gut, partly on activity, and partly disliking Turtle just showing up and throwing a vote, promising more, and vanishing subsequently. Ok nevermind that's activity profile, but still. I am not currently willing to lynch Wiz for reasons already mentioned, and sort of okay with JNV and Ash for now, though I expect JNV's change of style to mean I need to adjust when reading JNV, and Ash feels a bit helpful for the moment, though I don't quite feel so good about it. Anyone else is functionally in a "I don't care if you get lynched/willing to lynch" box. Go two ways about Shining - I like that willingness to die, but don't feel it is remotely helpful, either. I am not fully, dead sold on E!Archer. I think it's entirely possible I'm making a 'you suck' push when Archer is actually Village with a kayana plan. But that judgement is entirely based off the fact that 40% chance of death is kind of nuts to me as an Elim, but the fact that Archer is actively willing to accept this already indicates that on some level of his calculus, this is an acceptabe risk. The pragmatic part of me kind of thinks as well that if Archer wants to commit to this, then the best harm minimisation I can go for is to commit to lynch him. It's either E!Archer, or if it's V!Archer, From my perspective, I'm leaning E!Archer but am not fully sold yet. But suppose it is V!Archer - if I do commit to his train, I don't have to worry about World A or World B obtaining as well. But then there's the ocean of poke and vanity votes which are just as much hell to deal with, only they entail more Village and Evil warm bodies. This is where I'm at, anyway. Edited to add: Right, yes, I made the PM at 0306hrs. About an hour+ after the thread took off. Rollovers are at a fun 0200hrs for me.

Ah, good Earned a happy ending. Tbf, that's more or less Khas right now. Just followed Wurum out of the game and retired for good. Probably badgers Wurum every once in a while when he gets restless Less the dying. The sudden pivot of an entire game that had been called for us within a single cycle. Still haunts me, I suppose. But that's not really RP-related, but yeah I'll agree we did have a blast scheming, plotting, and conspiring and Vanishing Spanreed was a stroke of genius ...For contractual reasons, I am required to note Village is still best alignment. You and Araris may be steeped in Evil but my soul is still Village and I will die a Villager >> Kasyrm was more a product of MR1 IMO. Wyrm and I barely interacted in LG5. You could make the case that we wouldn't have talked so much in the darkeyes doc if not for LG5, but a lot of it was independent of that. Team Kasyrm though...

rn: kinda negotiable but willing 2 xplain but pls @ b/c 140 chars

i love the smell of napalm three way ties in the morning made pm w/ u

I'll give you this: it was so adorable that something almost happened in the dead doc that has now been censored for fear of reputational damage. Araris is a good GM Edited to add: Kas after Day 0.5:

So, reading @Matrim's Dice lobbying heavily for my death is kind of loltastic because most of this game was fifty shades of "lol I have no idea what I'm doing." I take the fact he popped me early and then his team got blindsided by V!Illwei as a validation of my NK baiting strategy As I said in the dead doc, the moment I opened my GM PM and saw 'Village Smoker', I went full AG2 PTSD Chihuahua and figured that you either die honourably to the Spiked kill, or you live long enough to get MLed by the Village for Smoking So, might as well die well! My aim was to draw the Spiked kill and aggro away from someone the Village actually needed alive. Which is usually how I play anyway, especially in early SE. You're welcome, Eiwlil :eyes: I am sorry I could not protect you from Wiz, Cin I will be less hasty to charge the Spiked kill in future when V!Smoker. Anyway the dead doc length/engagement was still kind of anomalous for me, but as mentioned when signing up, my dad has been having health issues, and other RL stuff, and rubbish theorising was still giving me some way of dealing with the stress and not thinking about things other than slaughtering enemy villagers with Wyrm. So there was that. Probably for the best I died early as I might've continued to overinvest in analysis for the game anyway. ngl I saw the fact Araris said the villager kept changing orders and was like "illwei confirmed 100%" It's regrettable the only time I get a clear V!Illwei read I didn't retract was in the dead doc, but I guess that's how it is. It's a Tyrian tradition Better you than me. As a V!Smoker, I would have been insanely paranoid of a supposed Seeker claiming to have scanned me, especially since I ran a Tyrian game with two E!Seekers and zero V!Seekers and watched Fifth use a similar ploy to murder the sole V!Lurcher. We all live and learn You have to hard commit to such things, IMO. And while I highly respect Mat, I feel that's bordering Aman level thread control territory. Happy to be proven wrong in a future game but didn't feel he was quite there yet - to do that, he'd need to have seeded groundwork and probably invested in good relations with more than just Silho (from what the dead doc could see.) Sorta could see it maybe but it didn't feel achievable at this point in the game. Like hard commit being the E!Illwei path - I think the better play is not to push that and to double down on confused Villager because that just locks him as E in your head and commits him to a thread brawl versus you to try to get you MLed and die to Cin after that, but it is what it is. Tfw you agree with Illwei... I am going to call this quokkagate. And I feel like this is just starting a tradition of Elims sending me all kinds of red herrings to watch me plunge into a paranoia rabbithole in the dead doc >:( We really should not have bet the farm on the quokka and this was a case of my putting the quokka before the read as you actually read like V!JNV to me without the quokka. But. The. Quokka >:( But also, yeah, need to work off RL stress accounted for a metric tonne of it, it's that simple. Sorta like the V!opposite of Shiv in LG6 in every way. He cracked a Village code as an Elim because he was waiting for someone at the hospital and needed an outlet. I built lots of beautiful tunnels in the dead doc because RL and I needed an outlet To be honest, I doubt it. Or at least I'd like to believe I would have called you out in thread or in a PM, and then we talk it over. Perhaps I do still ML you. But perhaps not. The thing about being dead is you can't voice your suspicions, you can't interact with players. And I'm a strong believer in the idea that interacting with a player gives you the ability to form a better read on them. Even voting them and watching their reactions and what happens in the thread is helpful. Would I have doubled down if we hashed it out in a PM or a thread? Maybe. Maybe not. But we'll never know, quite simply because we live in a world in which I died N1, and I don't trust myself enough to call it one way or another. It took time but you were readable in LG89, so I have some faith we could've worked it out eventually. And thanks @Araris Valerian for the trolling, for the fun game, for your GMing, and for the quokka >> It's sad for me to say this, but this game was the most fun I had in SE in quite a while and I died N1. I think it says a lot about how stressful playing all out has become, or how I interact with the game now, IDK. Either way, I'm just glad. I enjoyed the RP and the dead doc speculation.

dnt recall - saw this in ag7 but via illwei running straw's script u subbed 4 honor, maybe u confused? r u srsly defending w/ this u surrender thread & vote control 2 elims - i s2g u urself have said this b4 wrt why impt 2 vote early living doesnt matter if we let elims cntrl & whittle who u gonna call who u gonna defend as living vil w/ when vils dropping left right centre to vig kill, NK, inactivity kill, no vote kill, violation this is 10 player game u guess 2-3 elim i agree but how can u srsly be a villager & justify appearing vil >>>> actually voting & applying pressure like ffs i get my position can be argued to be performative as well since we get into voting meta fights a lot but i seriously don't understand how v!Archer can defend this position at all and not feel remotely uneasy about what it entails part of me thinks too obv evil clearly baiting part of me thinks tt my criteria for if E!Archer is: "Would E!Kas do it? If no, E!Archer totally heckin' would." >> ...RIP 140 characters i tried ok >>

You are Archer, & this is a QF that can take a toll on the Village due to Violation Dislike performative desire 4 V!read over utility 2 Vil

You're not gonna believe me when I say this but it was already like that when I got there... Died N1, got held up in the traffic, you know?

Mat at us rn: Hey Mat, you getting MR46 flashbacks? :eyes:

TUN Silho its too late 2 be my first love but u can be my last love burn w/ me <3

That was exactly 140 characters, I still pass Openwolfing? In my nice chill vil Twitter game? Hi Eiwlil I know this ain't openwolfing shh

You can always start making your team do that in the doc you know, I certainly don't own this playstyle im just doin what I hafta <= 140

Not sure which is funnier: Whole deadspec talking like this or Araris having to correct the sprammar of anyone in deadspec/thread he quotes

the real qn: u gon' talk like dis in deadspec doc too? + u gon make Araris talk like dis? :eyes:

fwiw i cld be wrng wilson made this same bad assmptn abt E!Claincy in AG1 rip village so pinch of silver + D1 p1 but is still where im at rn

was 1 of earliest in thread defeasible reason but wiz enthu 4 evil & doc in 90, unlikely thread early so if wiz beat me 2 posting, seem bit v