Pathfinder

The everstorm taking special time to focus on destroying Taln's temple in particular does not say to me that was part of his plan from the beginning lol Do you know what a dirty bomb is? But it didn't. Nale still had to curtail it and even then he failed. And as I said we fundamentally disagree on this point. I feel both sides maintaining continual enforcement would be more effective than a mass suicide. I am not trying to change your mind, and frankly you are not going to be able to change my mind, because we do not have enough evidence in either direction. It just comes down to difference in interpretation. Each are valid. You feel it is enough. I do not. I just quoted the scenes in my prior post. This is incorrect. Wyndle wanted to bond a gardener. The Circle considered having him bond the shoemaker. I wrote it out word for word for you. Nope. Pattern volunteered to bond Shallan because they wanted to learn about humans and the bond. Jasnah reasoned that the spren bonding enmasse was like an immune system of a body kicking in. But that doesn't change Pattern's reason. And for the nth time, you are self contradicting yourself 1. there is no way to prevent spren from bonding again ever 2. the suicide pact was to make spren too afraid to bond 3. it worked that the suicide bond made spren too afraid to bond Except it didn't. Spren still bonded! The only reason we didn't see more radiants was because of Nale (potentially unconnected to the suicide pact) was at the suggestion of Ishar, killing them after they had already bonded. Nale is the proof that enforcement is necessary. That the suicide pact alone is not enough to prevent bonding. To me humans and spren working together open and notoriously would be more effective than Nale and his skybreakers working in secret. If the skybreakers were apart of the plan (which I do not think is the case but lets say in this case they were), then that is confirmation that the suicide pact is not enough and continual maintenance and enforcement is needed. The continual enforcement Nale provided failed, because there are radiants successfully bonded that have progressed very far in their oaths. In my opinion, humans and sprens operating open and notorious with a ban that everyone knows why there is a ban, would be more effective than a suicide pact and a dagger in the dark. You disagree. To each their own. Agree to disagree.

The illusions provide a degree of resistance, but are not yet solid. From what we have seen at least.

Possibly true, but her hand went through the illusory Shallan. Jasnah said radiant was the one she could feel. Admittedly it would be a bit extra to have to include, but for me if the armor was illusory then I would think Jasnah would remark to herself that Radiant was the one she could feel, though her hand phased through the armor.

So if he was watching for them, regardless whether they popped up or not, then that to me implies Nale at least felt the message of the sacrifice wasn't enough. If Nale was working with the knights that killed their spren, and it was meant to be a two pronged plan (message coupled with Nale keeping an eye out) then again, personally I think mutual enforcement (both humans and spren alive with the intent to enforce a ban on bonding) instead of suicide would be more effective. If Nale was not connected to that group, as in not part of the plan, just coincidental, then the plan failed because Nale was still necesarry. They relied on the message itself to be an effective deterrent with no further enforcement nor preventative measures required. So any spren that pops up at any time to bond would result in the suicide pact being a failure. Again, we have so little information, our disagreement is more along the lines on what we personally feel would make more sense. Not trying to convince you or change your mind. The OP just asked what people thought, and I was saying why it doesn't work for me. I totally respect and get why it would work for you. Hmmmm, interesting thought. Personally I think the destruction of the planet was a part of the reason, but that there is a lot more going on that we do not know. So we agree to a degree lol Odium actively fueled the singers voidlight in past desolations. Can't really see him not being as active back then. We have nuclear weapons present across the globe in various nations despite the near mutually assured destruction of the cold war. Yet there is still diplomatic missions and agreements to not employ them. The leaders of the countries killing themselves to send a message to the world that nuclear war is a bad thing doesn't change that nations could change hands and a leader arises that thinks having nukes is worth the risk. So we have agreements in place in the effort to prevent nuclear war from breaking out. If nations change hands via revolutions or such, new discussions and agreements can be made to maintain the peace with the new nuclear power as has been done. But a single round of suicides would not maintain the regulation. Like with Rshara, this just comes down to personal interpretation. You feel the message from a mass suicide is enough. I do not. I feel there needs to be continual enforcement from both humans and spren if that was the goal. I personally theorize differently. I think the Radiants killed the spren against their wish. I think there is something more going on than what we know at this time. But it would maintain it. While killing yourself and hoping the problem goes away in my mind does not. When we first meet Wyndle, he goes on about an elderly gardener he would have bonded. Later when we see Wyndle, he remarks how the Circle considered him bonding the old shoemaker (Ym), but ultimately decided on Lift. I will pull up the quotes to verify Words of Radiance page 684 "You realize I didn't choose you" he said "I wanted to pick a distinguished Iriali matron. A grandmother, an accomplished gardener. But no, the Ring said we should choose you. She has visited the Old magic they said. Our mother has blessed her they said. She will be young and we can mold her they said. Well, they don't have to put up with-" Arcanum Unbound page 562 "Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children. I could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!" That is not related whatsoever. The fused taking over the cognitive realm was starting as per oathbringer in the time line. Spren bonded prior to that anyway as Kaladin was bonded to Syl before the fused were even a thing to take over the cognitive realm. Nope. Ivory held back all through way of kings because his people saw it as a betrayal. In oathbringer he had opened up to Jasnah in shadesmar while they spoke with the highspren (skybreaker spren which are also "normal" spren by your definition) over the cause. Jasnah remarks about wanting to tell Dalinar, but Ivory stated he was concerned by telling Dalinar, the radiants would kill their spren again and that he was ok with her knowing because she is different because she is emotionless so won't make the same choice that the ancient radiants made. Because the theory I am understanding you are saying is that the mass suicide was intended to send a message so grave that no spren would ever want to bond again. I responded to Rshara regarding Nale. It looks to me that Nale was not part of that plan. If that is the case, then to me you are saying the spren committed suicide, hoping that one action would have such a strong effect, that no further maintenance would be required. Spren would stop bonding, full stop. When as we have seen that is not the case. If they were grouped with Nale, then 1. they admit the suicide pact is not enough to prevent further bonding, and 2. Nale as a secret society is not enough to prevent bonding from occurring because radiants have popped up. I personally feel that if this was the actual goal of what occurred at the recreance, that it would have made more sense for them to voluntarily end the bonds, and humans and spren work together to maintain an active ban against it, so even if anyone did bond, the bond could then be ended. It would be maintained. It would be continually enforced. That is why I do not think the suicide pact as viable to me. It, to me, couldn't accomplish what it seems to me you are all positing its goal was. And for all the reasons I outlined above, I disagree. So I wish you luck with your theory, agree to disagree, and guess we will RAFO!

Wasn't Nale doing his radiant killing since Honor died? “Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

But Odium was a thing prior to the recreance, and the theory (if I am understanding you all correctly) disregards Odium, and feels the potential destruction due to the surges outweighs it, and the suicide is to drive that point home. And yet for some reason societies still employ laws. Why outlaw anything? Someone is always going to try it anyway. But spren still know bonding is a thing even after the recreance. By this suicide idea, you are effectively halfing the number of individuals that can aid in its enforcement. Wyndle wasn't against bonding. He just wanted to bond someone else. The Circle chose Lift in particular. So given that Odium was always a thing, and this suicide was supposed to scare spren more than Odium, then the sacrifice failed. Ivory talks about it to Jasnah. Ivory is a normal spren. But (if I am understanding the theory you are all positing correctly), it didn't work for 2000 years. Spren continued to bond anyway despite the grand sacrifice that was supposed to scare them straight.

But I thought the point of the suicide was to send all spren the message to never bond? Why are those organizations exempt? They would have received the same message if the spren committed suicide, otherwise their sacrifice would have been pointless. Maybe this would help. The process I believe everyone is advocating is this: 1. radiants and spren realize their powers unchecked blow up planets. must stop spren and humans from bonding ever again 2. radiants and bonded spren secretly agree to kill the spren to be so horrific so as to scare all spren off from ever bonding again 3. recreance happens For me, assuming your theory is the case, this could have been accomplished easier and more effectively by taking place this way 1. radiants and spren realize their powers unchecked blow up planets. must stop spren and humans from bonding ever again 2. radiants and bonded spren mutually break the bonds, resulting in bonded spren surviving the break 3. former radiants, and former bonded spren agree to each watch and enforce the ban on bonding on each their respective people's 4. Any time a budding surgebinder starts to happen, either side would notice and coordinate with the other side. use of fabrials or larkens would nullify new radiant, and then enforce the ban. So my point is, if the theory is saying the suicide pact was to scare any spren from bonding ever again, then the pact failed. The sacrifice failed to inspire such fear because spren continued to bond despite it to the point where skybreakers had to run around killing any radiants that popped up, and even that still failed because whole organizations still popped up, that still believed in bonding, despite this horrific and grim message of spren death. That it would have been easier and more effective to me, for the spren and humans to voluntarily break the bond, and actively enforce a ban than kill themselves and hope the message accomplishes their goal. Now that is my response to the theory. My own theory is different. I am saying that the reason for the recreance includes the power blowy up planets issue as well as other reasons we do not know because what little that did leak from the spren as they were killed by their radiants got muddled and confused. So surgebinding is bad is part of the reason but not the sole reason. The spren could not flee/break the bond without dying. The radiants as long as they believed in what they were doing, would not have broken the oath till they chose to turn their back on the first oath, which per WoB, they can do exactly that. So that to me is why the windrunners could fly in still fully powered, and then just break/kill the spren in one go. But as I said, that is my own interpretation of the information we have. Totally respect other people interpret or rationalize in a different way than me edit: basically for you the suicide idea makes more sense. for me it does not. that's all.

Is the entire "Circle" a bunch of weirdos? Because they as a group decided for Wyndle to bond Lift. Are all the Cryptics a bunch of weirdos? Because they decided as a group to bond multiple radiants despite the message of the spren suicide. Despite the skybreakers "running interference" behind the scenes as a secret organization, bonds were successfully formed, which you are saying the suicide is required to prevent, but an open organization of both humans and spren cannot possibly mitigate. Guess this is down to agreeing to disagree. Still don't see how this is disagreeing or disputing anything I said.

No idea if other orders can have spiritual versions of their surges or not, but just wanted to say if access to spiritual versions of the surges was predicated on the oath level, then Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, and Lift all should have already had access to their spiritual versions of their surges. Dalinar is at oath 3. Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah and Lift are all at or above oath 3.

I never said it wouldn't stop it. I said it would be better enforced. If you check a prior post of mine in this thread I mentioned ways they could enforce it, which would be more plausible to me than a mass suicide to try and convey a message that as I mentioned with Spark, was apparently misunderstood, as Spark did the very thing the message would have been aiming to prevent. Never said we do. My post said that the powers being the problem was part of it, and because some information leaked, it wouldn't entirely be accurate, and end up causing the other spren to think it was the primary reason. The stormfather certainly thinks it is the main reason. What I am saying is yes information leaks, but it doesn't make that leaked information entirely accurate. Did that hopefully clarify things? edit: this is towards @Renen Just re-read your original post, and recalled a WoB regarding Ivory saying the Skybreakers live in death. Posted below: Blightsong What did Ivory mean by the Skybreakers living in death? Brandon Sanderson Ivory likes contradictions, they fascinate him. And he is saying that they live in death in that they kill a lot. It's a philosophical sort of thing. He's making an Ivory observation, it's not something you're supposed to take as a pronouncement of nature or reality.

Personally I disagree. Existence of criminals does not mean laws do not work, and also does not mean the law's existence is pointless. But in this, to each their own Personally I do not think we know enough about ash spren to say. Cyptics have bonded two artists we know of, yet they focus on mathematics and patterns. Now there is a beauty and art to numbers depending on how the person views it, but that would not be the first thing I would have expected of the crypics when hearing of their order. Elsecallers seem scholarly, yet most of the times we have seen Ivory, he takes the form of a soldier with a sword. And for me, yes they did tell the other spren or at least it got out. It's why the other spren hate humans. The humans killed the spren because they couldn't handle their powers. The Stormfather confirms it. I think there is more going on than that to drive the humans to kill the spren, but I think it is part of it. Enough information got out that part of the reason became known as the main reason. This is all theoretical on my part and I do not wish to digress your thread. I apologize if I have done so Brandon confirmed that you can break the bond (killing the spren) from breaking the first oath. That is how a lightweaver could do it. Will update with the WoB, give me like 5 minutes. Questioner Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right? Brandon Sanderson Yes. He started down that path. Questioner How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the Truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer? Brandon Sanderson No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say. Questioner So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths? Brandon Sanderson They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

And this is another situation, like the one I just wrote with Rshara, where it comes more down to differing interpretation than anything. For myself, I would see it to be more likely that having a force present and actively working to prevent something (a force that is known, not secret like the skybreakers) on both sides (human and spren) would be more effective in preventing bonding, than suicide and hoping everyone gets the right message. Clearly spark didn't get the right memo. Spark wants revenge and bonded. When if your theory is true, the point was the humans aren't bad, nor are the spren, just the bonding of the two and using the powers.

yep, i think that is the crux of it, which is why I just want to stress I totally get where you all are coming from and I wish you luck with your theory. I just interpret some things differently, so it doesn't fit for myself. But I totally acknowledge how it could fit for you guys. To me that WoB is saying both parties need to agree, so the spren couldn't have stopped the radiants from killing them even if they learned what was planned.

I think the spren realized what the radiants were going to do, but couldn't stop it. From what I understand, holding to the oaths requires the radiants deep down to believe it is true. For instance Kaladin could kill parshendi before no problem because they were "other". he was protecting his people from "the enemy". Once the enemy because his people too, he had trouble acting within the oaths. That is where the whole Elhokar Moash thing came in. He made an oath to Dalinar. Deep down he felt he was betraying that oath to protect elhokar by helping Moash. Had Kaladin himself not seen anything wrong deep down with elhokar being killed as a means to protect Dalinar and others, then I do not believe the bond would have been broken. So the spren would have remained bonded to the radiants regardless whether or not they liked the idea of the radiants killing them all the way up to the radiant ending the bond by killing the spren. At least that is how I interpret it. But that is my point. I do not agree with the why that the spren would keep it secret. To me it wouldn't make sense when to me they could accomplish that goal far better by mutually ending the bond and enforcing a policy of non bonding. The spren to me wouldn't need to kill themselves to accomplish that. I respect your theory, but I didn't read anything there that answers any of my issues. Btw this is the WoB I am referring to regarding needing both sides to agree to breaking the bond for the spren to survive the experience Overlord Jebus Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant? Brandon Sanderson Yes, this is possible-- Overlord Jebus Essentially committing suicide isn't it though-- Brandon Sanderson I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question. Overlord Jebus Can they break it safely? *laughs* Brandon Sanderson There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

And like human society, keeping absolute secrecy on something so large is almost impossible. Someone would find out, and given the immortal nature of the spren, that information would get around in the years after the recreance. Conversely even if the spren found out the radiant's were about to kill them, the spren couldn't flee because as per Brandon, breaking the oaths without killing the spren requires both sides to agree. Maybe? Totally get the idea works for you. Just doesn't feel right to me. I feel they could have accomplished the same thing by mutually ending the bond. They would theoretically be more successful in my mind with stopping further bonding because the spren could keep an eye on other spren and the humans an eye on the humans. If a budding radiant is discovered, have people show up with larkin to drain stormlight, and then forcibly break the bond early like how the honorspren on the boat says they can do, keeping both alive.

The original plan was to hide the bodies in the cold cellar by the stable: "She trudged, exhausted, back to the waystop and hid Chesterton's corpse in the cold cellar out behind the stable, beside where she'd put theopoli's remains. She hiked back into the kitchen" Silence's mother was among the first to settle "hell". We do not know for how long "hell" was the way it was. As it is a short story and our only peek at this world, there is going to be a lot of info we just do not know yet. That is conjecture on your part. In the book, and i will quote this as well, he killed multiple people in multiple houses. The child's (I keep calling her child cause it is difficult to spell her name) home was not the only one in that village that he did that too. "I heard it all" Sebruki whispered "Mother never cried out. She knew I was there. She was strong Aunt Silence. That was why I could be strong, even when the blood came down. Soaking my hair. I heard it. I heard it all" She herself had been the only one willing to investigate the smoking homestead. Sebruki's father had stayed at the waystop on occasion. A good man. As good a man as was left after the Evil took Homeland, that was. In the smoldering remains of the homestead, SIlence had found the corpses of a dozen people. Each family member had been slaughtered by Chesterton and his men, right down to the children. The only one left had been Subruki, the youngest, who had been shoved into the crawl space under the floorboards in the bedroom. She'd lain there, soaked in her mother's blood, soundless even as Silence found her. She'd only discovered the girl because Chesterton had been careful, lining the room with silver dust to protect against shades as he prepared to kill. Silence had tried to recover some of the dust that had tricked between the floorboards, and had run across eyes staring up at her through the slits. Chesterton had burned thirteen different homesteads over the last year. Over fifty people murdered. Sebruki was the only one who had escaped him. She does not cut the head off in the forest. She brings it to her cellar and stores it to such time that she can return, and behead it there. I am confused by what you are saying here. Sounds like we are in complete agreement. Silence tracks them away from the waystop. Kills them. Hides them. Then turns in the bounty later so she cannot be connected to their death. Could you point to me where in the short story it mentioned shade animals? Because I re-read it, and I didn't see any mention whatsoever. Only people

Totally respect both your theories, just saying why it doesn't feel right to me. Brandon has said there is a function in place that if both radiant and spren agree, they can end the bond without the spren being "killed" so if both radiant and spren both wanted to end the bond to prevent being a danger, they could have without killing the spren yet according to the Recreance they did. Kaladin had been breaking his bond with Syl for days, and could still use his powers. Even when she was a confused gibbering mess he could force the bond to surgebind. So I think that is how the radiants showed up still surgebinding, before then killing their spren. Finally the issue I keep coming back to, is the other young spren that were not bonded apparently were kept out of the loop then because they don't know that reason. For the same point of how could the radiant knights spren not know they were planning to kill them, how could all the other spren not know that their compatriots were planning to sacrifice themselves? But I wish you both luck with your theories! it just doesn't fit for me.

Please re-read the quotes. She didn't want to leave the corpse out because the shades could walk over the body withering it further which prevent a person from identifying the head. It is literally stated in the book That's great. They can startle all they want during the day. Shades do not react the same way during the day. Running at night incites green eyes (earth sight according to the novel). Deer no longer have natural predators. They were wiped out by the shades. Any animals that are overly skittish would have been killed by the shades and over time learned to adapt. Baring forest creature learning to feed on blood and using their mouth as a perfect seal, predators are going to get withered just from hunting. Traps are still considered hunting, and there are snares that trap animals alive, maim them, or kill them outright. Shades go for who shed the blood first. No one actively shed the blood with anger, no source for the shades to attack. Standards or not, he was in the forest, and slaughtered multiple families. Enough blood to trickle down the floor boards and cover the little girl. Yet he and his gang were fine. They knew the rules and how to operate within them. If chesterton can kill people with impunity in the middle of the forest, then joe schmo can butcher deer. All that matters is you keep to the rules. And again she was concerned the shades would wither it to beyond recognition. I am not sure if I put in the quote, but Silence has a place away from the waystop she stores the corpses till she is ready to behead them, and collect her bounties If the blood was not properly secured, then it doesn't matter that it will eventually be dried, the shades will be running around withering the corpse. If someone stumbles across the corpse, there goes her bounty. if there are any signs left, people can figure out it was silence's waystop that the person was at last (a fear silence mentions). Not sure what a ghost of a deer has anything to do with it. I re-read the short story and there is no mention of animal shades. You can keep to the simple rules, and still shed blood. You just have to do it the right way, as shown in the quotes I posted If the blood leaks out, the shades will attack and wither the body. if the body sits out and someone finds it, silence is in danger and out of a bounty.

So since I already responded to 90 percent of this post prior in the thread to other people, I will just copy paste those posts to save re-typing them Just because their abilities may lend to combat does not preclude members who do not wish to fight. Edgedancers were quoted in the book to be amongst the most deadly, yet their surges lend towards combat medics (getting in, healing, and getting out). Wyndle wanted to bond an elderly gardener. That is not very combat inclined to me. Lift out of respect to Wyndle who doesn't want to cut people, turned him into a pole resulting in her not killing enemies despite her order supposedly being doing deadly. Syl had last bonded an elderly man as well that died soon after in combat because he was unable to fight effectively due to his age. Elsecallers that find members primarily amongst scholars (though brandon has confirmed a general that plans out tactics could join) have shown Jasnah who is quite effective on the battle field with surges one would not have thought originally would lend towards combat. Brandon has even confirmed a member of the windrunners could be afraid of heights. (WoB below) so Lirin could totally use his burning powers to cauterize wounds while healing people. it doesn't preclude him Questioner (paraphrased) Are there Windrunners who are afraid of heights? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes there are. You can see with Kaladin that a lot of them would see the sky as their domain, but there are some with a fear of heights. It's like being a left-handed woman in Alethkar, there are some things you just could end up with. Jasnah confirmed to Shallan herself that being a Radiant does not mean you have to fight and kill. You could be a radiant and be a scholar dealing with administrative duties with no killing required. Words of Radiance page 68 "The orders of knights were a construct, just as all society is a construct, used by men to define and explain. Not every man who wields a spear is a soldier, and not every woman who makes bread is a baker. And yet weapons, or baking, become the hallmarks of certain professions." "So you're saying that what we can do..." "Was once the definition of what initiated one into the Knights Radiant" Jasnah said "But we're women!" "yes" Jasnah said lightly "Spren don't suffer from human society's prejudices. Refreshing wouldn't you say?" Shallan looked up from poking at the pattern spren "There were women among the Knights Radiant?" "A statistically appropriate number" Jasnah said "But don't fear that you will son find yourself swinging a sword, child. The archetype of Radiants on the battlefield is an exaggeration. From what I've read - though records are, unfortunately, untrustworthy - for every Radiant dedicated to battle, there were another three who spent their time on diplomacy, scholarship, or other ways to aid society." Another thought I had. Lirin does not have to use division against people. Releasers can "set fire" to even stone and things that do not burn. He could take down enemy siege weapons, or fortifications. Depending on the enemy and how division works, he could destroy the weapons the enemy is wielding. So he could do something similar to Lift at the battle of Thaylenah. Stymie the enemy without direct violence. I respect that is how you feel, but I guess at the end of the day we will just have to agree to disagree. You said that Kaladin has to dehumanize the enemies in order to fight them and that Lirin cannot do that. A surgeon has to look at a person as just a body, otherwise they will be unable to cut them up, and do what is necessary. Surgery is very grisly. In many cases you are pretty much mutilating the person. Have you seen what sutures look like on a person fresh out of surgery when a limb had to be amputated, or an organ removed/transplanted? There is also a good chance of losing a person on that operating table. A surgeon has to accept that possibility in order to act and do what they have to. But again that is besides the point because based on what I have seen in the books and WoB, Lirin could be a member of the releasers, and advance all the way to the 5th oath without seeing a single second of combat. Also hailing back to the earlier point about shardblades, Brandon has said every order has access to shardplate, but members don't always use or want it. So just because you have access to weapons of war, does not mean they have to be actively used. I truly believe based on the information we have, any member of any order can be a pacifist and still advance within the order without issue. Argent (paraphrased) Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate. Now having copied a good chunk that has been already covered in this thread to respond to your post, at the end of the day if Lirin does not fit for you, totally good on you. He fits for me. All the above in my opinion shows that there isn’t a single mechanic we know of that prevents him from being a releaser. Significant number, 99 percent, or what have you, even if there is 1 percent, that is enough for Lirin to be included. However both Jasnah and WoB state knights regardless the order or time period do not have to be in combat. You need people to run the other capacities back at home base. “Total war” is a myth. You cannot eat, drink, defecate, and breath war. Food and infrastructure is needed. Both which do not involve direct combat. So your dedication to Balat is laudable, but as per another two WoBs I posted (and Calyx) earlier (shown below), it won’t be just one new dustbringer, as well as individuals can be open to multiple radiant orders potentially so we can both very well be right. Questioner Any new Dustbringers in Stormlight Four? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there will be. Phantine Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes: If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best? Brandon Sanderson Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.

Just checking, did you see the WoB that I posted regarding shardplate? That knights by an individual basis, not by order could refuse to use shardplate and not fight? From what I recall of her description, I will need to dig, Chana wore a soldiers skull cap helmet, and there were other descriptors for her being a guard. Personally I thought the intention was Jezereh was king, Ishar was the religious leader, Chana was Jezereh's personal guard, and so on Good point, I could see Lirin being a stoneward as well. The only reason I shy away from Balat, is it would again mean that the dustbringers are potential sociopaths. I feel among the radiants, its members can have a wide range. That's why I feel Lirin would be a good representative or the herdazian general to be a counter point to malata

Copy pasting a bunch of quotes from my phone and then will edit with my computer below. making my comments in blue so it is easy to tell which is a quote, and which is me talking. my version of the short story is in the compilation dangerous women, so page number won't help. He grinned. “You have a bounty! Delightful. I have always wondered how you tracked them. Poke a pinhole in that, attach it to the underside of the saddle, then follow the dripping trail it leaves? Hmmm? You could probably track them a long way, kill them far from here. Keep suspicion off the little waystop?” So I included this one because this shows part of the reasoning why Silence kills the way she does and leaves the corpse where she does/doesn't cut off its head. She doesn't want evidence to come back to her Silence listened, then turned to face them. You could tell fortfolk by the way they refused to face the Forests. They averted their eyes, never looking into the depths. Those solemn trees covered almost every inch of this continent, those leaves shading the ground. Still. Silent. Animals lived out there, but fort surveyors declared that there were no predators. The shades had gotten those long ago, drawn by the shedding of blood. This is the quote showing all predators in the forest are dead. deer and such have no fear of anything save man and given the rules, it appears traps are used instead for the most part. that comes up in a later quote below “We have visitors, Aunt Silence,” Sebruki said in a cold, monotone voice. The crossbow’s winding crank sat next to her. She had managed to load the thing and cock it, all on her own. “I coated the bolt’s tip with blackblood. I did that right, didn’t I? That way, the poison will kill him for sure.” “Child . . .” Silence stepped forward. Sebruki turned the crossbow in her lap, holding it at an angle to support it, one small hand on the trigger. The point turned toward Silence. Sebruki stared ahead, eyes blank. “This won’t work, Sebruki,” Silence said, stern. “Even if you were able to lift that thing into the common room, you wouldn’t hit him—and even if you did, his men would kill us all in retribution!” “I wouldn’t mind,” Sebruki said softly. “So long as I got to kill him. So long as I pulled the trigger.” “You care nothing for us?” Silence snapped. “I take you in, give you a home, and this is your payment? You steal a weapon? You threaten me?” Sebruki blinked. “What is wrong with you?” Silence said. “You’d shed blood in this place of sanctuary? Bring the shades down upon us, beating at our protections? If they got through, they’d kill everyone under my roof! People I’ve promised safety. How dare you!” Sebruki shook, as if coming awake. Her mask broke and she dropped the crossbow. Silence heard a snap, and the catch released. She felt the bolt pass within an inch of her cheek, then break the window behind. Shadows! Had the bolt grazed Silence? Had Sebruki drawn blood? Silence reached up with a shaking hand, but blessedly felt no blood. The bolt hadn’t hit her. The first reason SIlence was so concerned about the accidental firing of the arrow drawing blood was because the girl coated it in blackblood, which is lethal even if the shot itself isn't. Later Silence's daughter comes in concerned seeing the hole in the window. Silence says its ok no blood was shed. The reason was as we see later in the story, the bolt went well beyond the edge of the silver protection. If it had drawn blood, then a bloody bolt would be outside the way stop attracting shades. Silence admonishes the child because even if the way stop could hold to such a mass of shades when blood is shed in anger (quote later on), it is still foolish to risk it. No matter how safe you think you are, you always obey the rules (another quote later on) “I heard it all,” Sebruki whispered. “Mother never cried out. She knew I was there. She was strong, Aunt Silence. That was why I could be strong, even when the blood came down. Soaking my hair. I heard it. I heard it all.” Silence closed her eyes, holding Sebruki tight. She herself had been the only one willing to investigate the smoking homestead. Sebruki’s father had stayed at the waystop on occasion. A good man. As good a man as was left after the Evil took Homeland, that was. In the smoldering remains of the homestead, Silence had found the corpses of a dozen people. Each family member had been slaughtered by Chesterton and his men, right down to the children. The only one left had been Sebruki, the youngest, who had been shoved into the crawl space under the floorboards in the bedroom. She’d lain there, soaked in her mother’s blood, soundless even as Silence found her. She’d only discovered the girl because Chesterton had been careful, lining the room with silver dust to protect against shades as he prepared to kill. Silence had tried to recover some of the dust that had trickled between the floorboards, and had run across eyes staring up at her through the slits. Chesterton had burned thirteen different homesteads over the last year. Over fifty people murdered. Sebruki was the only one who had escaped him. We see here that Chesterton was able to lay down silver dust around a house, go in, and murder people bloody. So much blood that it trickled down the floor boards onto the child's face. So there are clearly ways to kill people in violence and still be safe, nonetheless butchering dead animals for food. No woman, not even a Forescout, looked upon shades without feeling a coldness inside of her. The shades were about during the day, of course; you just couldn’t see them. Kindle fire, draw blood, and they’d come for you even then. At night, though, they were different. Quicker to respond to infractions. At night they also responded to rapid motions, which they never did during the day. Shades are about during the day, but not as trigger happy. Each touch like that cost Silence money. The touch of a shade ruined silver. That was what her patrons paid for: a waystop whose boundary had not been broken in over a hundred years, with a long-standing tradition that no unwanted shades were trapped within. Peace, of a sort. The best the Forests offered. This quote and another further down shows you don't have to have silver to protect where you live and still function, but the extra security makes people feel better The grains grown out in Forest clearings were richer, tastier than what could be produced up in the mountains. Rabbits and turkeys caught in snares or raised in hutches could be sold for good silver. Deer are not the only animals butchered and eaten. We see here rabbits and turkeys as well. Shades slid through the trees nearby, almost invisible with nothing to illuminate them. She kept her distance, but even so, she occasionally turned to see one of the things drifting past her. Stumbling into a shade could kill you, but that kind of accident was uncommon. Unless enraged, shades moved away from people who got too close, as if blown by a soft breeze. So long as you were moving slowly—and you should be—you would be all right. Shows you can live among shades. Dangerous, but still possible as long as you know how to use the rules. Silence slammed her hammer into his arm, causing him to scream. Then she brought it down on his face with a crunch. She ripped off her sweater as he groaned and thrashed, somehow wrapping it around his head and the hammer. “William Ann!” she screamed. “I need a bag. A bag, girl! Give me—” William Ann knelt beside her, pulling a sack over Chesterton’s head as the blood soaked through the sweater. Silence reached to the side with a frantic hand and grabbed a stone, then smashed it into the sack-covered head. The sweater muffled Chesterton’s screams, but also muffled the rock. She had to beat again and again. Copied this quote because the blood was leaking enough to drench the sweater, but that by itself did not attract the shades. Then after the sweater was already soaked, they covered it with the tar lined bag Blood, though . . . blood shed in anger, exposed to the open air . . . a single drop could make the shades slaughter you, and then everything else within their sight. So according to this it is blood shed in anger, exposed to open air is what does it. Butchering a dead deer does not come across to me as in anger, and draining it directly into a container (for instance hanging it upside down, slitting the throat, and then covering the head and neck with a bag for the blood to drain into) prevents the shades from reacting They were from the forts. The nice clothing, the way they kept looking into the Forests at the shades . . . Fortfolk for certain. Silence stepped forward, wishing she had her hammer to look at least a little threatening. That was still tied in the sack around Chesterton’s head. It would have blood on it, so she couldn’t get it out until that dried or she was in someplace very, very safe. Dried blood no longer incites the shades Her arms stung, weakened from having hauled the corpse so far. The corpse . . . she couldn’t lose it! No. She couldn’t think on that. The shades would have it, as warm enough flesh, soon after Red was gone. There would be no bounty. She had to focus on William Ann. Second reason she didn't want to leave the corpse out. In this case the shades were riled up, but in general there is a chance a shade might wither it beyond recognition, which means no bounty It had lodged into the tree after being fired from the waystop earlier in the day. She remembered facing down that bolt earlier, staring at its reflective end. Silver. This is the quote showing the bolt fired by the child earlier reached beyond the safety of the boarder So she went downstairs to the kitchen to think difficult thoughts. She’d lost the bounty. The shades would have had at that body; the skin would be dust, the skull blackened and ruined. She had no way to prove that she’d taken Chesterton. Another quote showing about why she didn't want to leave the body for daylight She licked her lip, feeling the pain of his slap. She lifted her hand to her face. A single drop of blood colored her fingertip when she pulled it away. “You expect me to be frightened?” Theopolis asked. “I know we’re safe in here.” “Fort city fool,” she whispered, then flipped the drop of blood at him. It hit him on the cheek. “Always follow the Simple Rules. Even when you think you don’t have to. And I wasn’t opening the pantry, as you thought.” Silence saying how you always follow the rules, even when you don't have to. “How is it you’re still here?” Daggon asked. “I traveled all the way to Lastport. I hardly expected to find you here on my path back.” “I hired on at a homestead nearby,” said the slender-necked man. “Good work, mind you. Solid work.” “And you pay each night to stay here?” “I like it. It feels peaceful. The homesteads don’t have good silver protection. They just . . . let the shades move about. Even inside.” The man shuddered. Quote showing people living with shades without protections and existing fine.

What I mean is terming something a luxury is not only concerning the danger to get it, but the ease of access. If something is the only way you can get meat, then the danger becomes worth it especially if it is easily accessible. Hunting animals back in the stone age without advance tools was very dangerous and led to many deaths yet it was the primary way of attaining food for a very long time Finding WoB for that short story seems to be rather difficult. I could have sworn I read one that confirmed all natural predators were killed off as result. Without natural predators, deer would have no evolutionary reason to be nocturnal. Graze during the day, sleep at night That would still be in violence towards another living being. Again I am going on recollection, when I have a chance i will re read the story today, but wasn't it because she didnt want to leave the body just sitting there to potentially be stumbled upon by someone else to discover that she is the bounty hunter, or have someone else claim her kill (which is what nearly happened didnt it?)

Could you elaborate then what you are looking for? Because the reason I mentioned what I did was if you are near elantris, you can crack out the modifiers and get an almost unlimited output of power (though the big first blast was from the Dor finally having an outlet). If however the combat takes place away from Elantris, then the elantrian would shoot out a certain number/level of power blasts before they ran out. I mentioned cutting the hands because if the foe knew about it, it would be a tactic employed to counter an Elantrian. Same thing with the time it takes to draw and denote the complexity of modifiers in an aon. The aon was used to blast dakhor monks that had no innate protection against it and it blasted them off their feet at the very least knocking them out, possibly killing them. Their bodies were reinforced to be stronger, faster and armored/more durable. Only Dilaf was resistant because his gift was specific to resisting the Dor. Extending from that is all assumptions. I believe shardplate gives greater strength and resistance than what a dakhor can bring to bear but other than the WoB that nathranking posted, we just don't know. The strength of aons is their versatility. As long as you get your aons off, you can accomplish theoretically anything. Blasting lazers is the least you can do with it. Try matter transformation, teleportation, and all the other potentials that could flow from the other aons (cold, wind, punishment, etc)

So a few things I am going on recollection so I would have to pull up the quotes to be sure, but if I recall correctly..... 1. You can live in a town without being surrounded by silver. Many places do exactly that. The shades cannot walk right through solid objects (if i recall correctly there was a back and forth over that awhile back, and the sentence "through the trees" meant to me travel, not actually phasing through the trees). The issue with living without a silver circle is during the day, it is almost impossible to see shades, so you have no idea how many could have wandered in when going from outside the gates to inside, or outside the house to inside. Silence's place was so beloved because it was guaranteed safety due to the silver circles. 2. I do not believe deer is a luxury because otherwise every single individual would have to be a vegetarian/vegan. Deer are abundant in a forest without any natural predators (which went extinct because they cannot learn the rules and work with them like humans can). 3. If I recall correctly the spilling blood rule was spilling blood in violence. Now as to the comment about her going back for the corpse in the forest, personally I think it is because cutting off a human head is sweaty, rough, loud work. Not the kind of thing you want to do when shades who have recently been riled up are moving around. And Silence has said, you never ever assume you are safe. You always take full precautions in everything you do, even when you don't have to. The landlord being a prime example. he thought he was well safe behind the barriers and had no problem shedding blood, yet he didn't know that Silence had a pocket shade. But again, going on recollection and its been awhile since I read it. Will try to look up stuff to answer better later edit: additional thought, going to need to confirm this, but weren't these rules inspired by the rules for the sabbath or some other religious rite? So when Brandon says butchering at the right time and the right way, could mean you can shed blood, but it has to be in a certain manner and time of day for it to be truly safe. Maybe we just haven't seen that process yet, and in the corpse's situation, it wasn't the right time of day and she did not have the means to do it the right way. edit 2: brief look at WoB hasn't found anything yet, so could have been a thread I read, but I will keep looking

Elantrian's power is dependent on their proximity to Elantris. The strength of their blasts normally without the powerup from Elantris is closer to when Raoden was in Teod. All magic systems on Sel are dependent on location because of where the power of the shards being in the cognitive realm. In addition to this, an elantrian still has to calculate the modifiers and draw them in order to get the effect (Raoden is especially natural/good at this). If the Elantrian's hands are damaged (as what happened in Teod), or prevented from finishing the aon, the effect does not occur. Does that help?