Seonid
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Everything posted by Seonid
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Two more things. It now reads conversing with Isaac, and thank you very much for the upvotes, folks. (Thanks for pointing my spelling error out, Joe!)
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I think that this is wrong here. Wayne's ability to act is almost certainly not magical. He's a method actor, and there are non-magical humans on Earth right now capable of reproducing his feats. I see no reason to reach for a magical explanation when a non-magical one will suffice. We have no reason to suspect that the interaction of Wayne's powers would even be related to memory and acting. We have the AA tell us that each Twinborn has their two powers interact to give them a new ability. This is true, and so I understand the excited buzz to try and figure out what Wayne's is. For the record, I don't think that Wax's steel bubble is it either. I remain rather strongly convinced that it is a thing that Kelsier or Zane could have done without being Twinborn. Looking at Kelsier's manipulation of metal during his final battle, I see no reason he couldn't use a Steel bubble if he had thought of it. They just aren't anywhere near as useful when guns haven't been invented yet. I see the steel bubble as a Savant-level mastery, not a Twinborn perk. But I think we are stretching to think that bendalloy and gold could combine to give memory powers.
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Now might be a good time to ask if the being currently worshipped under the name Trell is the same as the Trell that was worshipped pre-Final Empire.
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Ninja'ed by Kipper. Your paranoia is excusable. And my vote on myself was a tug on your sympathies. But not because I'm evil. Just because I'm good and I'd like not to die this game. I'd rather not have this character (who, truth be told, I'm rather attached to) survive only because I've asked the GM to have him survive in the write up for 2 games in a row. But since I realize that, even if I survive this cycle, you're just going to lynch me next cycle, I give up. Right now, my secret vote is on raven, and my vote manipulation is moving stink to raven as well. That will tie the vote. But I'm going to cancel those orders, so I don't have to deal with another cycle of this. I'm not up to it anymore, and I'm tired of defending myself when it should be obvious. By the way, and I mean this in ask seriousness, Kipper. Thank you for at least feeling sorry about it. I'll try not to take it personally. EDIT: Autocorrect
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Since at this point, the lynch is pretty much set, I'm just going to leave a lists of points as to why you should be able to tell that I'm not evil. First off: My lashing protected Wilson from death at least once, and would have done so a second time if I hadn't been directly instructed to protect someone else - and Wilson was the most dangerous player the village had. That is, in fact, why she trusted me. The first time mail invested me, making me neutral, I immediately revealed it to you, Kipper, in the PM we had with Wilson. If you remember, Wilson had asked mail to invest in me to see what I'd do. I acted in good faith there. In addition, I've lashed who you've asked me to lash and roleblocked who I've been asked to roleblock up until the point when you stopped asking me to lash and roleblock anymore. I've voted for every Odium's Champion except, I think, for Antillar, which was during my brief phase of inactivity while I was trying to get the MR fixed. During last day cycle, I lynched Clanky, despite him being the only other person who could reliably take suspicion off of me. If I were evil, I'd have to have been incredibly stupid to kill him. Mail has invested in me once since Wilson died, which should prove that there is one more OC. Because even if I am evil right now, when mail invested in me, that would have ended the game. (Since I was already neutral that cycle, and was investing in Kipper, it didn't change my alignment, but that is forget proof of my point). I publicly cleared Kipper after investing in him. If I were evil, clearing anyone like that would be counterproductive, since the lynch is the only kill the OC's have, and a cleared person isn't one they could get us to mislynch on. Finally, I offered a foolproof way to tell if I'm evil: use dominion+ endowment to force mail to invest in me. Or, if you trust mail, have him invest me. Don't tell me when. This also serves to clear mail. If I don't tell you the message he sent while investing, then mail's picked a side. If I do, you know for sure that I'm not evil that round. Since I offered that last cycle, and nobody said anything (even to criticize it if it's not foolproof), I'm having a hard time believing that any of you actually care whether or not I'm actually evil. I thought about staying neutral instead of investing in you, Kipper. That way I could publicly threaten to join team Odium if you lynched me. I chose not too, because I started on Team Village and wanted to end on Team Village. I suppose I'll let this stand as my epitaph.
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Honestly, at this point it's tough to care. You're wrong about one thing, lynching me isn't the only way to a certain win. There's a thing called "trusting people," especially when they've done things to be trustworthy. But that apparently has never been an option, so I guess we'll just go like this: Seonid There's another extra vote for you
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Thank you, ccstat. That's what I was hoping to end up doing, and your result was what I was afraid of. Shoehorning may be possible, but it is going to require all manner of unfounded assumptions. I'm not sure where to go from here that is in any way supported by the evidence we've got.
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Eliminators are always easier to identify in hindsight... As far as picking between raven and Dow, I'm leaving towards raven. Inactivity is probably the best strategy for an eliminator at this stage of the game. They need to get three or four players dead (mail doesn't count towards their win con, and when I'm neutral, neither do I). Without a kill role, the best bet for the eliminator is to try to avoid attention (and try to get mail or I to join them). Raven has been doing that. It's not a lot to go on, but it tips the scales slightly. In addition, Dow has strongly argued for clearing stink, which doesn't benefit the eliminators. If someone is conclusively cleared like that, then that makes a person that the eliminators can't manipulate us into lynching. That's another point in favor of Dow being good, which points towards raven being not.
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Hmm...what evidence do you have that he didn't give his own agents freedom? Just Paalm. And even there, I'm impressed with how much he let her get away with before he intervened. Really, I think your assessment of harmony is off-base, your charges are sweeping and not supported by the available evidence, the assumptions you make do not match up with the world as it is presented, and the moral system you propose is flawed. Having said that, I have a responsibility to demonstrate it. Unfortunately, I am leaving for my mother's birthday party right now, and will not be able to respond in such depth as this discussion deserves. I will, however, engage the last point I make; my assessment is this: a moral system that asserts that a man is irredeemably evil because he prioritizes the lives and well-being of millions over the freedom to act of one individual? That moral system is wrong. I do not have a problem with you criticizing harmony's actions. They deserve exploration and discussion, and are written to be deliberately ambiguous. I do have a problem with your assertion that because harmony's moral code does not match up with your own, that he is therefore irredeemably evil. That is highly inflexible and, I think, totally wrong.
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Those are hefty moral judgements you are throwing around there. I'm going to engage your last point first. Certainly, it could be the case that harmony and marsh are what bloody tan is taking about here. But we don't have proof of that. And you are throwing extremely strong moral claims on the basis of a "sounds like." Are we to take the word of an insane man without even asking if there might be more to the story than he told us? Moving on to your assertions on the nature of morality - I'm not suite where torture came in. I'm not talking about torture. Nobody in this thread is talking about torture. That's a non sequitur at the moment. With regard to slavery, let me ask you first, what is your definition of slavery? It will be hard to have a productive conversation without first knowing what we mean when we use a term. I'll let you speak first, in order to present your own definitions. But I do need to know how you define the term. Lastly, why? Why us slavery irredeemable compared to murder or genocide? What is so much worse about it that letting somebody else end a million lives is preferable to a single instance of it? A short end-note: have you read the original Mistborn trilogy? And if so, how do you feel about vin and Elend, who used allomancy to control trends of thousands of koloss in a similar manner? Are they irredeemably evil, even though they were acting to try and prevent the literal end of the world? Just food for thought.
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Vending Machine: Sanderson edition (game)
Seonid replied to RippleGylf's topic in Forum Games & Random Stuff
You get your own personal Nighthound *inserts blood and screams of the innocent* -
Fire is Gently Giving Laundry, Demanding Your General Reward as Kerosene Edassa
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The reason for my assumption is this: Vin is not as powerful as Elend. This is shown in several places all through the final book, and should be evident to anyone reading. Vin came from one of the most pure Allomantic bloodlines in the Final Empire, but Elend was made Mistborn by a bead of Lerasium - and so was as strong as the Lord Ruler in terms of Allomancy, which Vin was not. However, being from one of the most powerful bloodlines likely puts her at or near the top in terms of power. Kelsier notes that she is pushing more powerfully than she should be able to, given her body size. The books give the impression, however, that it is not a huge difference. She's not throwing double what she should be able to, or even 1.5x. Thus my assumption.
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I begin to feel about my Autocorrect the same way Jain felt about the color...
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We don't know any of this. He doesn't threaten the use of the Flaw. We don't know that Harmony set up the events with Bloody Tan. We don't know that Paalm went insane because of that. With the information we have, it could just as easily be the case that Bloody Tan was Paalm trying to get out of Harmony's control. We do have confirmation that Harmony never used the Flaw on Paalm until the last moment of the book. We have no reason to believe that he has used it on any other kandra. He doesn't enslave them. If they choose not to follow him, he allows it. He only intervene when they start murdering (a reasonable stance to me). On your second point - he does reason with Paalm. Repeatedly. He was pushing very hard for her to do something she didn't want to do, using reason and persuasion, and she chose to take herself out of his realm of influence. When she doesn't respond to reason, he still doesn't enslave her. It's only when she takes action that will end in mass destruction that he attempts to.
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Here's a way to know for sure. You have dominion available, as well as endowment. Get dominion to endowment, and have them pick a cycle to force mail to invest in me. Don't let me know which cycle it is. I'll announce in thread when I get invested in. If I don't, you'll know that mail's picked a side and can't invest. If I do, you know that both of us are neutral and that there's still an ox out there.
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You're fine, Dow. I've got a thin skin this game, I guess. As for your analysis, it's not bad, although it doesn't take into account either my roleblock or protection abilities, or potential shardic shenanigans that could be pulled. If it were cultivation that were evil, they wouldn't have to reveal themselves with the vote. Neither would I, honestly, because u have a secret vote too. Preservation could use the UP ability to seal a vote in before everyone had gotten on. Kipper mentioned that shards are being passed around to keep them safe, too, so if endowment got into the hands of the OC, they'd get the Odium kill back. And if I were evil, the OC's would still have a kill ability too. Of course, y'all would have protection too, so it'd be more of a crapshoot, but it would be better than letting folks get lynched until it was 1 to 3. But your right, it's not quite so clear-cut as I made it out to be. But back to the real world, where I'm not on Team Evil; based on your comment about scanning sink and getting guaranteed good, I suspect that raven is the last OC. I still don't get why y'all think karlin is the last one, though. I don't see any way he could have made the Wilson kill without getting on the shard. If he'd put it in via email/PM, it would have been activity, and he wouldn't have lost the shard.
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You're right, of course. Sorry Kipper. I suspect I'm just projecting Stink's attitude onto the rest of the village. You haven't been acting smug. Honestly, neither has Dow. He called me out on something I really should have remembered. I haven't gone over the PM with Wilson and you yet, but I bet I'll find the info in there. I don't know why this game is getting under my skin so much. All y'all deserve an apology for that. You shouldn't have to deal with it. After this game, I might need to take a break for a while.
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Nope. Put it this way. If I were evil, this game would be over. Already. Because there is one more OC out there right now, and if I joined, Mail would have joined as well. He has essentially told me as much. That leaves 3 votes to 3. You don't control the lynch, one of the shards is evil, and if you add my powers to that? I'd have a kill, and I know where the protection roles are. I have a roleblock. I have a vote manipulation. The village is down far enough that you couldn't stop it. You don't have the roles. Also, Dow, if you actually read my post, you'd know it wasn't a long post saying that stink was guilty, it was a long post saying that either you, raven, or stink was guilty, laying out how that would work for your cases, and concluding that stink was the one that made most sense to me. As with ask of my analysis posts, there was an implied invitation to participate, critique I'm not the only one making mistakes here. Finally, stink, you might notice that I wrote my post expecting to be lynched. It is information for the benefit of the village, after you get rid of me. Although frankly, I don't know why I bothered. I'm growing more and more hopeful that the eliminators do win, just to wipe the smug smirks off of your face when you realize that all of the time you wasted on me lost you the game. Not hopeful enough to join them, understand. I have a duty to the villagers who have died while I worked with them: Wilson, quiver, Shallan, Orlok. They're the reason I haven't already switched. Because you folks have given me every reason to. EDIT: Autocorrect
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Newsflash: Wilson didn't share everything with me. For a period if at least a couple of cycles, possibly ending on our around the first time mail invested in me, she was worried that I had gone over to the other side. I am pretty sure I earned her trust back - at least, she told me I did. But a lot of stuff happened in the meantime that she never got around to filling me in. For several cycles, I thought raven held endowment. Even after she let me know that stink actually held it, I didn't know that raven held endowment until my vote was manipulated. So no, I don't know everything Wilson knew. I might have a chance tonight to go back and find if she told me that particular piece of information, but I have 31 pages of PMs to search through and only a mobile to do it on. It's tedious work, so I rely on memory as much as I can. And sometimes I get that wrong. Heck, often I get it wrong. But whatever. I wasn't going to get out of getting lynched tomorrow anyways, and you should probably still have enough players to win after I die.
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Good points. I'm working on a minimalist framework - until a character has been confirmed to have a power in the book or by WoB, I'm assuming he doesn't have it. But that is an assumption, not am indisputable fact, so good to point it out. I asked Argent if he would ask Brandon that question at a signing. Any thoughts on my other assumptions?
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Vending Machine: Sanderson edition (game)
Seonid replied to RippleGylf's topic in Forum Games & Random Stuff
You get a Scadrian waffle chef! Inserts immortal soul -
Shadows of Self Tour: Chicago / Oak Brook, IL
Seonid replied to Argent's topic in Events and Signings
Was Elend powerful enough to be able to pierce copperclouds? This is related top my attempt to put together a definitive model of Hemalurgic decay. I'm looking to stabilize relative power levels between vin and elend to get limits on how much power the spike need to be able to provide. -
I like it
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Alright, time to start mathing this. Assume an exponential decay curve, of the form C = I*e^-(a*t), where I is the initial Hemalurgic charge in the spike, C is the Hemalurgic charge remaining in the spike, a is the decay parameter, t is the time elapsed since the spike is removed from the body, and e is the base of the natural logarithm. This is the general solution to the first order differential equation (dC/dt) = -aC (using the same terms as above). I is the constant of integration, etc. Now, before I start crunching formulas, we have to make assumptions. Here are my initial ones. Feel free to critique them. However, please ground your critique in evidence either from the books or from WoB. My intent is to formulate the definitive model for Hemalurgic decay, so I'd like to be as accurate as possible. Also, if you have evidence from the books or WoB that confirms one of these, please post it as well, so that I can move it from assumption to known fact. Assumptions: 1. No lower bound on the amount of charge in the spike. As t -> infinity, C -> 0. 2. Allomantic/Feruchemical power available to the user of the spike is proportional to the charge remaining in the spike 3. Giving the spike to someone merely interrupts the decay - after removing a spike, decay resumes from where it left off Completely coating the spike in blood either interrupts the decay or introduces a change of time variable (t -> t/1000 or something like that). The decay rate remains a constant. 4. Hemalurgy represents simple addition of strength. You add your allomantic power to the power in the spike. 5. Vin was the most powerful naturally born Mistborn of her era 6. Vin was not significantly (more than 10-15%) more powerful than other Mistborn in her era 7. Vin's sister was about as powerful as she was. 8. Elend (as a Lerasium Mistborn) represents the upper bound on Allomantic power in any era In addition, there are two places that can give us information about specific Hemalurgic decay - Vin's earring and Wax's earring. Vin had spent quite a bit of time (at least several years, possibly up to a decade or more - maximum bound: 15 years) without the earring in, and was still able to pierce copperclouds, something Elend was apparently not able to do. This implies that Vin with spike was more powerful in bronze than Elend without spike. From 4 and 7, then we conclude that Elend was less than twice as powerful in bronze as Vin, and likely significantly less than that. Guess: I'm going to use a maximum bound of Elend as being 1.5 times as powerful as Vin, and a minimum of Elend being 1.2 times. Less than 1.2 strains the ability to accept Vin's surprise that Elend is so strong. More than 1.5 might give us unreasonably long decay times. I'm willing to go higher than 1.5, but the higher we go, the less Vin's spike has room to decay over those 5-15 years. The second place to look at is Wax's earring. Brandon has said that Wax's earring is so degraded that there is essentially no power left. The range I will consider is from .1% to .001%. I'm willing to go lower than .001%, even significantly lower, but not much higher than .1%. Certainly 1% is too much. Approach: I will use Wax's earring to establish a range of decay rates, and apply them to Vin's case to narrow it down. After getting a final range of decay rates, I will look at the initial decay, and see how much power is lost over the first minute, the first 10, the first hour, and the first day. There should be noticeable power loss over a short period of time, to match up with Marsh's statements in Hero of Ages. Any feedback would be helpful.
