kaellok

Here goes my bound-to-be-controversial list of things I want to see or not see in Book 4! (Ranked in order of how important it is to me.) 1. What caused the Recreance, and how did it happen? (I am currently not accepting the answers as presented in OB, 'cuz they don't make a lot of sense. Within the proper context and framework, they might. That's what I want to see.) 2. When did Shallan Bond Pattern? We have seen the moment when Kaladin made his Bond with Syl, Dalinar with the Stormfather, and Szeth with (spren whose name is unknown or I just cannot remember), and we also know what led up to those points for each. Why/when/how for Shallan is still a storming mystery. 3. More Jasnah. Just so much more Jasnah. Making her POV sections as prominent as Adolin's would be good; too much more than that might be bad. 4. Fewer non-Interlude one-off POV scenes. Yes, it's nice to see through the eyes of Rock and Teft and Skar and Lopen and Navani, but continued expansion of viewpoints merely to hint at one thing that will happen later in the novel instead of showing it a different way lies all that was bad about the Wheel of Time series (not saying that series was all bad, but rather that the series had a serious bloat problem that started with introducing too many characters for a scene here or there). 5. More Rysn that is not then shown to be completely irrelevant 30 pages later. 6. We had very little Szeth in OB. This was the right amount. I'm confused--do you think the good guys are winning?? They're surviving, sure, but each battle has seen them fail and suffer losses they cannot recover from in time. At the beginning of WoK, there's ~100,000 Alethi soldiers; by its end, we're at ~90,000. By the end of WoR, only a few months later, they're at ~75-80,000. The end of OB is now ~65,000. That's a third of their total armies (assuming all highprinces were lending their forces to the cause, which they are not) gone in half a year, along with the entirety of their homeland. They've managed to not lose outright in battles that would have been game flipping over if they lost, but that's really all they have done.

Society enforces societal norms, and people who act outside of the preconceived expectations are generally punished--such as by declaring 'turns out you never were who we thought you were.' Occasionally, someone will get a pass, and be allowed to be the exception. Given that society itself is falling apart, it is possible that Dalinar will not be punished in this same way in Book 4 and beyond, and that a more egalitarian society may start to form around the Urithuru coalition. If it does, then I think it will be far more due to the end of the world than Dalinar taking up a pen. Remember, though, that there will always be people that cling all the harder to their beliefs in times of stress and danger, and an entire society that was devoted to bringing about a return of Desolations because they think Vorinism has become too weak. For many, many people I would expect the end of the world to cause them to cling all the more strongly to the most hardline of their beliefs. After all, perhaps what is happening is because Stormwardens tried to predict when the Highstorms would occur, and men began to write using glyphs. That was bad enough, but now they want to write words too?! Never forget: fanatics can be crazy.

My understanding of the way things work is that the Death Rattles allow a glimpse into the Spiritual Realm at the point of a soul fracturing. Further, time is essentially compressed/happening all at once in the Spiritual Realm, which is what allows for seeing the future. This certainly means that Death Rattles can be used to see the future; I think it is faulty to say that they can only see the future (unless someone has a relevant WoB to say otherwise). It could certainly make sense to analyze the ones in the epigraphs from WoK as if they are future events only, since the ones that we have identified were all seeings of the future. In particular, I think that the "Victory!..." Death Rattle is certainly referring to Alethkar falling to the Singers, and not some ancient invasion.

One of my favorite parts of Oathbringer is when Kaladin fails to Say the Fourth Ideal. He knows what it is, and how important it could be, but he just can't say it. I think this speaks a lot to him as a character. On the other hand, shamefully I must admit that 90% of the reason why I'm so glad that he fails is because when Dalinar gets his turn to shine it's so much more powerful. This was Dalinar's book, and the focus was on Dalinar's story arc. Other characters definitely had their own time in the sun, but Dalinar was allowed to be the hero of his own story. After reading WoR, one of my larger fears was that every book would just be Kaladin coming in to save the day again, and the climax would be on how he does it this time (there were arguably two major climactic points in WoR, and Kaladin was the hero-focus of both of them). However, even in the brief moments that they had on-screen, Jasnah and Renarin's scenes were emotional and awesome. I'm still waiting for a moving climax scene from Shallan's point of view, and slowly accepting that we may never get one (I was happy to see her using an army of illusions for combat, which I had predicted as a tactic years ago, but the climactic scenes of her lacked...I dunno what, but something)--but I have restored faith that we will get those scenes for more than just Kaladin.

Read and re-read the thread. Still not understanding this point. Given a finite resource (x), how does converting it to (y) and back to (x) increase the overall amount of (x)? There would have to be greater than 100% efficiency ratios on that conversion, right?

Ryshadium have stone hooves, and are adapted to Roshar. Horses, on the other hand, do not, and almost definitely came with humans when they settled Roshar. Also, Odium being able to Bond humans is specifically a new thing referred to in the climax of OB as a dangerous turn of events. I'd missed seeing that there are 9 colors of wine, but only 8 listed. Something more might be there, along with the rarity of intoxicationspren (per Axies) and winespren.

Not a typo, but out of 4 consecutive sentences, the word 'strikingly' is used descriptively in two of them. Seeing that was enough to pull me out of the flow of the story for a bit, and still remember a week later. p.39, US hardcover, last sentence of the penultimate paragraph: "...it was strikingly easy to get lost in this place..." p.40, US hardcover, first sentence of the first paragraph: "...a strikingly high structure..."

So, I'm gonna cheat and not go with my favorite character, but instead my second favorite character moment in the book. (Dalinar saying "I am Unity" being the #1 scene/portion/moment of any character in OB by far.) When Teft says the words--"I will protect those I hate. Even...even if the one I hate most...is...myself." Not gonna lie, that brought a tear to my eyes. Teft's scenes in general hit close to home, reminding me very strongly of an old friend. It was nice to see him get a win, despite (because of, even, the self-loathing that addiction brings).

In one of the WoR epigraphs, there's something that says something along the lines of "The humans give spren meat, while the Listeners only give them a thin broth." It is speculated that the reason for this is because Listeners/Dawnsingers/what-have-you (what is their race called?) are much closer to the Cognitive Realm than humans are, and what spren are after is found deep in the Physical Realm.

If we're talking about Odium's actual end-game, then to quote Jasnah, Think Bigger. Odium is an angry and vicious god, who killed a god his equal in power even while he himself was outnumbered. Based on clues in SA and other novels, and what Sanderson himself has said at signings, Odium will not be satisfied with something as paltry as conquering a planet. When has a conqueror ever said, "This is enough?" Humans affected by the Thrill cannot say that, and the Thrill is directly caused by a literal Splinter of Odium, suggesting that he himself feels it oh so much stronger. As far as his plans for conquering Roshar go, I'm sure he has a few thousand, depending on how the people act. Yours seems very plausible to be one of them. We certainly don't see Odium showing any particular care for the Parshendi; in fact, time and again we see the disdain Odium has for them in the way that he treats Venli and how he addresses the others. Contrast that to the conversations that he has with Dalinar and Mr T.

I disagree with the part I have bolded. Amaram wanted others to think he was honorable. There are many occasions where we see Amaram have a chance to do the honorable thing, and then decide to not do that thing. Perhaps I am prejudiced against him--but what is even one honorable thing that we see or hear about him doing? I truly cannot think of a single one, so any examples would actually be appreciated; I dislike maligning people for faults that they do not have. He's an interesting character, and a flawed one. Much like Mr T, Amaram is willing to kill, maim, and destroy others in order to fulfill some nebulous thoughts of benefiting the greater good. I mean, up until the end when Amaram's so mad at his friends for not understanding how awful things have been for him that he willingly joins the enemy. To me, he lived as he died--a weak-minded fool blinded by hate and faith, letting others (for good and for ill) use him to serve their own ends.

The Radiants, at least some of them, were able to talk to Honor directly. The Recreance happened well after Aharietium, the so-called Final Desolation. Why would we ever expect the Radiants to think that the Desolations were gone forever? Did Honor somehow think that they were done and over with because 9 of the 10 people supposed to lock the gates had instead broken completely? Or did Honor just decide to clam up and say nothing about how screwed they were all going to be? These are unsatisfactory assumptions to me, based on what we know to be true.

Bloody hells, you beautiful person! That's the one!

I'm confused, though; Odium specifically says that he will keep the spirit of the agreement, not the letter--that means that there is no possibility for a loophole. A loophole is specifically keeping the letter of an agreement or law, while violating the spirit or intent. Also, remember that Mr T was specifically barred by law from making or passing any laws, judgments, or changes to the Diagram on that day. I'm pretty sure that means that Odium is free to do whatever he storming wants as the agreement was not ever binding. Sooo, hopefully someone will mention that to the Diagramites before they throw all in.

Check Dalinar's vision of Feverstone Keep from Part 4, ch.52 "A Highway To The Sun", p.725 of hardcover version of Way of Kings. This right here, 1000%. Except for being sure that the concerns will be addressed, as nothing about the Radiant actions for the Recreance make a storming bit of sense to me, and the more we learn the more that stays the same. I'm honestly wondering if Hoid had a part to play in that. Frustratingly, I am unable to find the specific quote where he basically says that he wants to help, but need be he would see the world destroyed if it was necessary for his cause (I thought this was to Dalinar or Jasnah, but seem unable to find where. Drat.) I think that similar to what happened in the meeting with Dalinar and the coalition, there was at least a 1-2-3 punch (probably 1 thru 9) directed at each of the Orders, orchestrated by Odium. Dalinar comments on how easily it was orchestrated against him, Mr T recognizes how his grandest accomplishment in the planning of the Diagram is a fraction of what Odium can concoct in moments based upon it, and Kaladin even says that he thinks the Recreance didn't happen all at once, but was caused by Radiants finding something that they couldn't ignore, and eventually had to face--that something being something that shook their confidence in their own principles. So, maybe one Order mostly thinks that because the Parshendi were the original inhabitants, that the Radiants should murder their best friends instead of killing any more of them. I can see a certain logic behind that being the intent of what happened, but I still am not buying that as the actual explanation/reason. Then again, the humans have a rather cavalier and heavy-handed relationship with the spren. If we look at modern-day Skybreakers, Szeth flat-out says he's going to Say the Third Ideal and form a full Bond with a spren, even though he doesn't seem to have actually interacted with one yet. That may be a peculiarity of the Skybreakers, or it could be that there were similar traditions for all the Orders in the past. I was a child in the 80s. I may not have as many memories of living with the Cold War as others do that were older, but I distinctly remember having nuclear strike drills right alongside fire drills and tornado drills while in elementary school. I know some small portion of what it feels like to know that there is a sizable chance that the world will end (anything more than a 0.00001% chance on any given day is pretty damnation high, all things considered). Would I kill my best friend, and encourage thousands of my co-workers and friends to kill their best friends just because none of us thought that we could be trusted to not push the button to launch a nuclear weapon or five? Absolutely not, that's foolish--that doesn't solve anything, and it's just murder. The nukes would still be there, and even if nobody was left who knew how to use them, the nukes are still there. Honor was alive post-Aharietium and pre-Recreance, and apparently in at least infrequent contact with the Radiants, so there's no reason for them to have believed that there would be no more Desolations. As in WoK and WoR, OB does nothing to advance a reasonable/rational/logical reason for the Recreance that also sits well emotionally. It remains the single largest fear that I have in the series--that that's all we get, some half-answer that is hand-waved and generally accepted because it fits as long as you don't think about it like, at all. If everything about the world, and the interaction of every single sapient spren ever, wasn't directly dependent upon the cause of the Recreance, I wouldn't feel that it mattered so much. The fatalism that the sapient spren have about being murdered by humans they bond--but bonding them anyway--demands an explanation when those spren are fairly central characters in an epic fantasy story. It's not something that I have been able to overlook easily. And so, instead, as with WoK and WoR, I continue to hope that whatever is the final form of What Really Happened works for me and everyone else.

3. The Shin also, in general, keep to the lands that were given to humans when they landed on Roshar. There they have actual soil, grass, etc., which they walk on freely. Their beliefs are likely based at least in part on a corrupted version of the agreement of their settlement in the first place. Also, spren are directly shaped by the beliefs of humans, so an entire nation worshiping stone is bound to have some effect.

I do not think that I had ever considered 'capacity' in that way in regards to Mr T, and it is certainly worth a very careful look. However, we know that Cultivation/The Nightwatcher gives out boons and curses based on what they feel like giving people, not based on what was asked for. ("You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it." Way of Kings, Interlude 7, p. 709 hardcover edition.)

I am jealous of you and your 'outlines', but I think that I have the advantage in 'healthy, and taking 4-day weekends all November-long'. I started creating an outline of my story, when I discovered that I hated my story, my characters, and my plot. So then I went in a different direction at the start of NaNo, changing up literally everything. And then I re-started yet again after realizing a few major and fundamental flaws at the start of the novel. Things are finally turning out in a structure that I can work with later to make not awful. (And I'm claiming each and every word I wrote in the false-start novel, too! They're mine, damnit!)

I have scoured this thread and add y'all as buddies! My novel can basically be described as "What if Simon R. Green had written The Reckoners series?" Or at least, that's what I'm going for. Edit: Current noveling music! Delain's "We Are The Others" album and the FInal Fantasy XI Chains of Promathia soundtrack. (Songs that get shuffled in way more often than the others are "We Are The Others" and "Distant Worlds".) Some random Nightwish, Epica, Within Temptation, and assorted Nobuo Uematsu are also in rotation, but not currently favored as highly by my brain.

I am also doing NaNo this year, as in years past! My name there, as all places, is kaellok. Should you encounter a kaellok in the wild, it is me! (except for that one guy that stole my WoW account 10 years ago and transferred it to Oceania, where it was promptly banned for selling gold; that is not me.)

Lots of people have spent a lot of time debating this subject in this thread, but I figured I'd add my 2 cents as well. First, there are definitely characters that I feel are evil. Of course, that's based on my own definition of 'evil', which may differ from others. We don't really know Odium as a character, but more as a force of nature, and so I really don't have an opinion or judgment of him other than 'bad'. In much the same way that hurricanes are 'bad.' People, on the other hand--I have no problem freely judging them (and I judge myself in a negative light for how readily I judge people). Szeth: assuming that there is not some sort of extraordinary compulsion attached to the Oathstones, Szeth has done a LOT of stuff that HE believes to be evil. At a certain point, you are indistinguishable from the actions you have taken. The Szeth that we see in WoK and WoR is evil. (Perhaps sympathetically evil. But he's still a mass-murderer that knowingly assassinates leaders in a way designed to cause the maximum amount of chaos in the world KNOWING that that will be the end-result. If he's being literally controlled, he gets an exception from me, but that's the only way.) Sadeas: decides to see to the death and destruction of several thousand people who he has willingly allied himself with just so that he can feel like he did when he was younger. Perhaps he should have taken up drugs instead, and destroyed only himself? Such a limitless, selfish nature is evil. We even see that he relishes the idea of self-indulgence in the speech he gives Adolin shortly before his death. Amaram: he is a man who wants to be a good person, but is unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary for that to be possible. At every turn, we see him sacrificing others in order to benefit his own position and desires--including murder. He may regret his actions, but not enough to do the things that he thinks are right. Mr T: @Rogueshar does a great job of explaining how Mr T is evil if only for the hospital blood-letting. I've said in other posts that if he were to use only volunteers, then perhaps it wouldn't be evil. Instead, he specifically kills those that will not be missed by anyone, just to get a potential glimmer of the future. I do not care what your goal and intent is--at the point when you are murdering hundreds, thousands of people for your own purpose, then you are evil. Remorse and shame for actions do not mean that a person is good, just that they are not a monster. If you commit one evil act, that does not make you evil; just a person who did an evil thing. When there is a clear pattern of choosing the evil path, though, that is when I would call a person evil. All of the primary antagonists so far show this inclination. I really, really like @bo.montier's definition of what makes a person evil, too, since it fits really closely with my own, but is much more elegant. As I have said before, though, I think it is important to note that it is possible for an act to be both evil and necessary. Mr T's plan is certainly evil, and I believe that he is evil for following through with it--but if it succeeds in saving humanity on Roshar, then it would be seen as necessary.

Emphasis added. First, I want to say that I agree with the basic premise of your bond-farming theory, specifically that ANY theory of the cause of the Recreance must explain why the Knights Radiant killed their spren, especially in the way that they did. However, this foundation does not intuitively suggest that revenge/punishment for spren transgressions (whether real or imagined) naturally follows. The basic foundation is that "The Knights Radiant thought that their bonded spren needed to die in a manner almost guaranteed to be permanent," and there are many ways that we can get there, including the spren themselves being party to the act and demanding the sacrifice be made. I find your theory more likely than many, but if I were you I would not consider it axiomatic that the Recreance was an act of punishment towards the spren. Personally, I find myself in the same predicament as @galendo, wherein I don't think that any reality is capable of making perfect sense and logic to me. My current head-canon is that a Mistborn (or several) used a Duralumin-Soothe to cause the KR to just give up. The way the Knights are described in Dalinar's vision is similar to how Straff Venture describes the Duralumin-Soothe Vin uses on him in HoA, so I like to think the idea isn't quite as ridiculous as it initially sounds

I find it more likely that the advent of the Radiants caused Odium to be more Invested in the system in order to counter the threat, which resulted in stronger/deadlier Desolations overall. It's a small change from what you have written, but I think an important one. I see no indication or reason to expect that a Desolation will be less terrible just because there are fewer Surgebinders this time around. As for regular people fighting and defeating a thunderclast, I'm sure it's possible--people armed with alcohol, fire, and hammers have taken out tanks. At great cost, and under the right circumstances of course, but it's still possible. The speed that they can attack with is potentially a great limiter, as well as the intelligence behind those attacks. Of course, the overall numbers of them would determine how they are used. If there's dozens or low hundreds, then they would likely be mostly used for assaulting cities and heavy fortifications; if there's thousands, then they'll make heavy cavalry charges insignificant in comparison as they rip through entire armies.

No, no no no no! "Dig things" is how you end up without planets. Such an open-ended statement, when given to a sentient being who is incapable of understanding the context and intent of the language, is as rife for abuse as Nightblood's "Destroy evil" command. (Tangent: Intent matters a great deal with the Oaths of Roshar and in Awakening things in general, so why does it seem to have failed so spectacularly with Nightblood? The creators of Nightblood would have had to have imbued the Command with the intent of what evil is, but it didn't translate well at all. Is this because Nightblood became sentient?) So one day you'd take your NightShovel and tell it to dig a hole so that you could plant some crops, but it just keeps digging. And digging. And digging. Consuming all the investiture around, even any latent bits that might be in the ground or plants. And it doesn't stop until it runs out of Investiture. Given an infinite amount, and it'll dig the planet until it's just an asteroid field. Maybe also some weird things with actively vaporizing the things it comes into contact with. MUCH more study is needed to use Awakened metals, at least to the degree that Nightblood was, in anything approaching safety. (I would agree that a shovel is inherently safer than a sword, and concrete commands are safer than nebulous ones.)

I agree with you almost completely. The only disagreement is that my word choice was deliberate. From my perception and according to my morals, killing a person is not always evil, but it is always wrong. And I would absolutely say that TLR is evil for perpetuating the society he created in the way that he did, even if it was necessary to save the world. I draw hard and bright lines about what is wrong or what is evil, but it is very possible for every action possible to be wrong. However, not everything is equally wrong; killing person A is not necessarily as bad as killing person B or better than killing person C thru L. Context tells us which is the least wrong option, but the least wrong option does not make the action itself 'good' or the person committing it 'good' just because they did so 'for the right reasons.' An evil or wrong act is an evil or wrong act, no matter the reasoning. Similarly, a good or right act is a good or right act, no matter the reasoning. Towards Adonalsium, we do not know many of the details surrounding the Shattering of Them. If the 16 acted in concert to Shatter Adonalsium in order to obtain Their power, then all 16 of them were wrong to do so. If it was only one of them, then that one would be. If Adonalsium had asked them for their help in effectively committing suicide, that might make it less wrong--but would not make the act itself good, even if a great deal of good came about from it. All of this is a tangent to the thread, though, and I apologize for being a large part of the drift in conversation. Antagonists are those that oppose the protagonists. I do not think that Radiants will be antagonistic towards each other due to the arrival of Desolation. Books 6-10 may see this happen, as it seems from the epigraphs in WoR that the Orders were not in true alignment with each other. In the current series, Szeth would be the most likely Surgebinder to continue to be an antagonist, if only because his honor will have him working towards goals that may be counter to what the others wish (ie, a focus on revenge on the Stone Shamanate while the others would welcome their aid). Whether Szeth becomes a Radiant at all is questionable, imo, but still probable.