kaellok

Awesome.

The first rule of battle is Know Your Enemy. We get several hints in Oathbringer that people were looking for Shallan, but were following the trails that they expected an Elsecaller to leave, rather than a Lightweaver. ie, they were looking in all the wrong places because they didn't know their quarry. Odium had been preparing Dalinar to become His champion for decades. Odium had been preparing Sadeas's army to turn for at least 5 years. Nergaoul was probably not needed to make either of those things happen, but Odium brought it to play in its full force to up the odds because the forces of humanity had no counter to it--He believed. Shallan herself (dubious tho she might be as a primary source in this matter hahah) that she observed her Illusions being far more effective than they had any right to be because of the overwhelming level of bloodlust in the turned Sadeas soldiers. This heavily implies, if not outright states, that a Lightweaver with sufficient Stormlight is a soft counter to Nergaoul. Odium brought one of his strongest weapons to a battle thinking to use it to ensure an overwhelming victory, and then lost (ok, probably closer to a draw, because humans killing thousands of humans is bad for the survival of humans) and also lost the weapon. There's several reasons why Odium didn't win at Thaylen City, but Odium having no idea that the Radiants had a Lightweaver is one of them. Also, I'm expecting there to be more knock-on effects from this in future books, especially regarding the people hunting Shallan.

I was reading through your post, with you the entire way, and then this threw me completely hahah. First off, I do think that a Shin who has trained with all 10 Surges through use of the Honorblades will be much more devastating when Bonded with Yelig-Nar than Amaram was. Despite the tricks and tactics employed by Amaram, Kaladin would clearly have won handily if not for the Fused and the need to protect Dalinar. Obviously the significant reason for this was that Amaram focused on using what he was familiar with: Plate and Blade. Szeth-gar would likely trounce Kaladin in a 1v1 fight at this point. Maybe not an easy kill if Kaladin levels up to Windrunner 4, tho. But where I thought you were going with this was that Szeth is the perfect person to trap Yelig-nar in a perfect gem. It takes true understanding of the full nature of the Unmade to call them, to trap them. Dalinar and the Thrill, Shallan and Re-Shephir, Szeth and Yelig-nar. In many ways, those three Unmade are the worst version of those three Radiants, meaning that they are uniquely vulnerable to them, but also most likely to be able to trap them.

The Curse of Chalion is soooo good!

Look, I get this is off-topic, but I am shocked, shocked whenever I find someone who didn't love The Lies of Locke Lamora. *cough*quicklywhatssomethingicansaythatsontopic*cough* This is a really good point. It can swing the other way, though, if fans go into the sequel and aspects of what they loved about the original are changed or altered then they may come away hating it. Either way, though, I think the point that we should expect to see extremes of opinions of sequels when compared to the original seems a logical assumption.

The idea that the Earth is flat has been widely debunked by scholars since at least the 500s BC, so I'm positive that the educated on Roshar have known that it's spherical for that long. (The entire idea that people used to think that the Earth was flat seems to be at least somewhat intentional, occurring mostly between 1870-1920, and used mostly to mock pre-modern civilizations of the time.) However, the limited number of sea-faring people on Roshar in comparison to Earth could greatly impact how prevalent a viewpoint it is among the common people. Even the uneducated in primarily seafaring societies have largely held to the belief that the Earth is self-evidently rounded; it is hard to argue with seeing a masted ship disappear along the horizon long before the masts themselves do. I would assume that the Thaylens as a people at least generally have an understanding that Roshar is rounded. Seeing a viewpoint from someone not well-educated and flying through the sky where it would possibly also be self-evident (depending on how high they fly) would help shed some light on cultures that have a different common understanding.

In WoR, Kaladin's ability to fight is seriously degraded when he's busy betraying the Oaths he's made. We're all but flat-out told that him being such an amazing fighter is due to something going on with his Bond. In Oathbringer, when Shallan is busy diving into personas specifically so that she can hide from the pain of the Truths that she spoke, in Shadesmar especially it's called out repeatedly how her drawings are alternating between awful and amazing. This is more subtle, but still a very strong indication that her being an amazing artist is due to something going on with her Bond. (Also the moment when she flat-out tells Adolin that she thinks she's a cheater and that it's all from the magic, and he's like, is that really different from me being a world-class duelist just because I happen to have had access to the world's best trainers ever since I was 4?) So I'm 100% sure that those two are at least strongly influenced by the super-natural. (It could easily be that Kaladin can fight so well because he 'feels' the winds, and he's spent years relying upon it without ever knowing it, and so when it's suddenly gone he doesn't know how to fight. So not supernatural itself, but supernatural-adjacent. Similar to Shallan's skill with drawings being so inextricably linked with her Memories.) The main thing that we've seen with Dalinar is to be stronger than he should be, or possibly more akin to tougher. Shrugging off wounds that should have felled him, standing before a chasmfiend and saying 'no, I'll crush you', etc. That might be something more directly related to Dalinar and the effects going on with him than any knock-on effects from Resonance that Bondsmiths get. We have barely seen anything from Jasnah, but the glow of geometric patterns that Adolin sees surrounding her might be be related. Probably much more likely to be proto-formation of Plate (or possibly after-image of Plate being dismissed), but that's all I can come up with. And every other Radiant we have seen on screen is significantly different than 'normal', and so drawing conclusions would be difficult if not impossible.

I'm somewhat surprised that WoR is/was the highest rated fantasy book of all time on Goodreads. On these forums, I don't remember a lot of unalloyed praise for the book, so I would have expected a score of 3.8-4.2 overall. I guess that shows how selective memories of a subset of fans of a particular novel can be flawed and not representative of the truth. (For instance, there is a years-long thread about how people hate Shallan and skipped the scenes, hating Moash is a meme at this point, and on my initial read-through there was a 50% chance that if I hit a Kaladin scene I put the book down. On subsequent re-reads, though, the positive feelings I have for it remain the same, while the negative feelings have largely been smoothed out.) In my opinion, Way of Kings is the better written novel of the three, but I vastly prefer Words of Radiance--I solidly maintain that the Chasm Sequence is the finest writing Sanderson has ever done, point blank. While great in its own right and with possible the single greatest moment in his Sanderson's writing so far, Oathbringer is a bit too ponderous and dangerously large and so suffers somewhat in comparison. All of that said, Goodreads is notoriously terrible and unreliable, so take any rating there with the largest grain of salt you can imagine.

There is a WoB that the Heralds appear to be the age they were at the moment they became the Heralds. On the other hand, Perception/Identity plays pretty significantly in how certain others that have related nature appear, so that's not far-fetched at all.

@SomeRandomPeasant, thanks for that! I had not yet re-reached that point in my re-read of Oathbringer, and had forgotten it. I am also, unfortunately, a pedant and sometimes let that side come out too strongly. I do think that the various god-spren were created or elevated to that level by humans, and later by the conflict between Odium and Honor and Cultivation. We know that there used to be far fewer spren, we know that humans offer something of more substance to spren than the Singers do, and we know that the spren have a tendency to choose humans over Singers in their conflicts. Because of all the mystery surrounding the Sibling and Urithiru, it is not safe to say that we know their point of origin or even the timeline for when they appeared on Roshar. This might be the pedant in me warring with the Assuredness Movement in your argument

I disagree. Arcanum Unbounded for sure next, especially the novella Edgedancer, since it is about Lift, takes place on Roshar, occurs between WoR and O, and is explicitly part of the Stormlight Archive. But then Warbreaker should follow, given the direct (if minor so far) tie-in that it has with WoR and O. Warbreaker will specifically answer questions about Nightblood--and lead to asking a whole lot more. Mistborn is great, and Elantris has some amazing characters, but I think that given the amount of time between now and RoW they should be lower priority. Pay special attention to the King's Wit, aka Hoid, aka 'You!' He's a special cameo character that is typically going to be fulfilling at least three things at once whenever he's on screen, even if we're barely sure of one of them at the time. He does world-hopping stuff, and helps tell some of the multi-world behind-the-scenes story (1), often acts as a storyteller to flesh out the world history in a sort of meta and interesting way (2), and provokes a reaction in the POV character we're with to get them to act a certain way (3) to further his personal agenda (4), which may or may not be to the benefit of the people around him. A lot of what we know was pieced together by a lot of really smart people over a number of years who then took opportunity at author signings to start asking Sanderson if this theory or that was right or wrong. And then they've just kept doing that, started a pretty comprehensive wiki that @Matrim's Dice shared, and there's a collection of pretty much anything he's ever said to anyone over the past 15 years, sorted by tags to make it easily searchable.

I do not think that we know this at all. If we do, please provide the supporting evidence. Additionally, I have not seen anywhere that the Unmade predate humans on Roshar. The Singer gods are almost definitely the Fused. However, the Listeners have lost so much knowledge that they no longer remember anything about them other than fear of the power they offer and price it costs. No names, no faces, and almost no lore. Remember--humans lost almost everything, but still retained their minds, and they get everything a kind of twisted-up almost-right-but-completely-wrong. Now imagine instead of a vocal tradition that got things wrong over time the warped and changed, you lost literally everything except for what was contained in one song. If you were passing that song down, and you knew it was the only knowledge that could be passed down, would it make sense to say 'Oh, btw, that's your great-great-great-grandpappy that's doing all those evil god-things'? Better instead to warn away from those claiming to be your gods, whether they were or not, and not bring weird confusion into it. And Venli likely refuses to call them her gods because they might be the gods of the Singers, but they aren't her gods--merely her ancestors. While it's possible Eshonai is referring to Honor, Cultivation, and Odium--like you say, it makes little sense. Odium came to Roshar around the time the Humans did (possibly with them; the last time I went reading WoBs about it, it seemed like Sanderson was being cagey about giving a direct answer either because he didn't have it completely nailed down or he didn't want to give away something to be revealed later). Odium and his spren talk up passion a lot. It's really logical that there are 9 Unmade and 9 Passions because that's Odium's Number. Much like Honor's Number was 10. There are other examples on other Shard worlds of Shards having a specific Number devoted to them that pops up again and again, sometimes in plot-related events and sometimes just to be a little oddity. None of this disproves that the Unmade were crafted from pre-Humanity Listener Gods. Odium could certainly have taken those existing super-spren and torn them asunder, forcing his own Investiture in place, and reforging them into spren that were now of him. So while I don't agree with the path you take to get their, your conclusion is still very plausible

In the Roshar System Overview page in Arcanum Unbounded, calls out the storms and many of the spren predating the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. It also says that the presence of the Shards have transformed the planet to a degree that it's difficult to determine what existed prior and what is newer. From that statement, it's fair to assume (but it remains an assumption) that certain existing things were transformed by the presence of Honor and Cultivation. No clue here about the Stormfather, just that the storms are terrifyingly ancient (and combined with the letter to Hoid in WoR, almost definitely the work of Adonalsium). The Stormfather says that Dalinar would consider him to be a spren. There's more in OB and some WoB that indicate that what a Rosharan considers a spren is not necessarily a 1:1 example of what we would (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spren). So that could explain the hesitation (even if Honor refers to himself as the spren of Honor to Dalinar, that really does not mean that we would call him that). However, as an interesting addendum, spren can be combined together through unspecified means (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e215). There's more to it than just that, though. WoB have given us that there's a close link between Stormfather and Honor, as well as Nightwatcher and Cultivation. And when Dalinar first meets Odium, in one of his visions to speak with the Emperor of Azir, Odium says that Dalinar is the first to bond with the Stormfather in his current form. All of this doesn't disprove your theory at all, since as I understand it your theory is that 'Sibling used to be the spren of Honor, but now it's the Stormfather because of shenanigans.' However, I think that there's just too much pointing us directly away from that conclusion, and not much of anything indicating it, for that to be the intended case. I've been thinking about the Bondsmith spren again recently, and love the new theories that people are having regarding them. I really want for there to be something going on with them that's just a little bit more than what seems so obvious, and really appreciate the time and effort for this one.

Yeah. I think that I don't think it's actually correct, simply because that might then be attributing too much of humanity's foibles to the influence of Odium instead of themselves. But aside from that, I think that there's a fair amount of similarity with a couple of other things that happen on other worlds--even if those instances are very distinctly different than 'Firemoss is Chemoarish!' would be. Yes! Did you think that Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor was a liar when he was diagnosing his friends and other people he came into contact with?! The man is a doctor! (Note: for the previous sentence only, doctor = chef, and not doctor.) (For real, though, they might not be airsick, but Sanderson has said in WoB that there's a much higher volume of oxygen than we're used to on Roshar. This is called out again in the brief survey of the system presented in Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection just prior to the novella Edgedancer. Which also means that @Honorless is right, in that it's probably just from a weird interaction of a property with the moss and the high oxygen environment. I just find that to be the boring and predictable route to take.)

I love the Edgedancer one so much! Probably the one that fits the absolute best, plus it's about bees, so it's clearly the best.

I disagree that Nergaoul would fit in the corrupter category. Sja-anat and Yelig-nar both have very distinct corruptive attributes which have a unique manifestation in the Physical Realm. I think that Re-shephir does not strongly fit in this category, but if you do, then the Midnight Essence also has a quite distinctly distorted manifestation on the Physical Realm; we don't actually know enough about Dai-Gonarthis for comparison. Nergaoul, and the Thrill, is like a drug which inflames passions in people, and also causes them to suffer from withdrawal when it is gone. While that can be (and is) used to corrupt people, that's more of a secondary effect of its nature, rather than the primary focus. Kind of like how a needle can be used to poke someone, and it'll hurt and do damage (possibly even extreme damage), but it's really there as a tool to allow you to sew. Ashertmarn is basically the same in this case, and I firmly believe that they belong in the same broad category as Nergaoul (whichever that may be).

Not sure if due to over-work and lack of sleep but still trying to finish Oathbringer before November kicks in and work really destroys my life so that I can also sneak in chapters of RoW after it releases, but I've noticed something which I'm not sure how intentional it is. Odium says he's all about passion. The Fused are willing to overlook people (no matter species) who have passion, as long as they also show servility when required. Certain Unmade are known to greatly inflame specific passions in people--Nergaoul with the Thrill, Ashertmarn with Excess. Odium also encourages people to blame their actions while impassioned on him--saying that he is the one who is responsible. When he visits Dalinar the first time in the vision of the Recreance that he is sharing with the Prime of Azir, Odium possibly hints that he is responsible for the actions. Not in so many words, but again he says that they were acting with great passion on that day. It's pretty obvious that Moash is being set up for future story stuff. And one of his chapters follows rapidly after Teft's relapse with firemoss. The emotions, and the words that they each use to describe how they are individually feeling, are remarkably similar. Moash is feeling nothing, hollowed out, wondering why the literal end of the world would cause any actual change. Teft can't feel anything except numb and hollow until he makes it into the darkened room with a bowl of moss. The Blackthorn Who Was some 22 years ago in a time of relative peace was desperately trying to fill the void of the missing Thrill with firemoss. At times, even after he has glutted on the Thrill, when it leaves him he is not sated. So! I posit that either this was all done deliberately to show readers the physically addictive properties of the Thrill, or that firemoss is actually the body of the 'missing' Unmade Chemoarish. This would explain that Unmade is inexplicably absent, as well as accounting for the people conflating myths and stories with it and the Nightwatcher (because, you know, plants).

Your questions: And answers to all your questions! Hidden behind spoilers because this got super-long. There are some spoilers for Oathbringer here, but I tried to heavily limit them for now since you're re-reading it. Also, I am too, and so I've forgotten some of what I remember.

Sorry if I wasn't clear--I meant can both exist at the same time? A corporeal body infused with someone else's Investiture running around, plus the Cognitive Shadow aspect. One that has remnants of the person that used to be, but has been largely over-written by the Investiture, plus their 'soul' that is basically still who they were in life. If so, then the Unmade could be the bodies of the Heralds snatched up and reforged at or near the moment they became Cognitive Shadows. The traces and remnants of who they used to be would have an impact on how they are shaped, but because it's the power of Odium it is twisted and warped and wrong, turned against itself. But I guess also the Unmade aren't typically corporeal, so that wouldn't work either, so probably not.

Do we know if someone that died on Nalthis and came back as a Returned could also have become a Cognitive Shadow? <Spoiler below contains the initial post I was making that led me to think that the above is a much more interesting question to ask.>

If I remember correctly (as I also cannot find the WoB I'm thinking of frustratingly enough) the WoB was talking about Shallan from childhood until WoK -- she regressed, suppressing memories of what had happened. I don't remember reading anything of similar lines for Shallan regressing after WoR. There's an argument to be made that she did, however, since she creates personas in order to hide from the Truths she spoke that she can no longer suppress as she had become accustomed to. If you progress by speaking core truths that reveal who you are, and you hide from that pain by changing who you are, then it's pretty fair to say that you're regressing. I'm about 1/3 of the way through my re-re-read of Oathbringer right now, in prep for RoW, and there's an interesting thing here when Kal and Syl are with the Parshmen. Syl says that humans had ripped out a part of the Spirit of the Parshmen, which is what kept them docile and servile, hard to think or act unless given specific direction. But the Everstorm healed that damage in them. I'm morbidly curious about what the old Radiants (and one, in particular) did to cause such long-lasting Spiritual damage to an entire species. And if it's something that was exploiting a unique vulnerability of the Parshmen, or something which could be done to others as well. I also think that the quote is a direct allusion to what happened to Eshonai--she consented to the form change, but did not know what that would actually entail. So she was fixed, but not in a way that she wanted (see: internal screaming), and as a direct result most of her people died. Her not doing that would have had an indirect result of most of her people dying, so it's not like she had good choices to make, but she was also lied to about what that decision would entail.

Just finished my Edgedancer reread last night, so I can answer towards Nale at least! He was saying that he no longer feels guilt. He's happy he doesn't feel it anymore, because being guilty while "following a code with precision is wasted emotion." Lift asks him some emotions that he feels that aren't wasted, and he stops for a moment to consider the thought, and then Lift continues being Lift and it's not addressed again. As for Odium's whole "taking your pain" shtick, I think that what he's doing is a lot more on par with Rioters and Soothers on Scadrial than anything. Bump up some emotions, tamp down others, so the end result is them feeling how you want but it's a super-delicate balance to maintain (especially if you're not a Mistborn and capable of doing both). Like sure, it's literally magic, but it's not free. So when Odium is wrong about something, it's because he thought he had ramped up/down the necessary emotions, but because he's a giant Shardic god it's hard for him to look at a single person so narrowly and actually get it completely right. And most of the time, getting it like 90% right is easily good enough. Add to it that Dalinar has a layer of obfuscation provided to him by Cultivation specifically to prevent that very moment, and it's no wonder that Odium failed. The scary thing is how close he came to succeeding regardless.

Dude. Have you seen my Shardblade?

Has Sanderson specifically stated that Sadeas had no hand in this, or that Tanalan was working alone? Or is this your interpretation? There's enough going on in the book to make a pretty convincing case in either direction.

Bob