Chaos

*tosses a spike* Congratulations, you've just volunteered been spiked for wiki duty I hope you weren't planning to need that organ. Sorry about that. Welcome to the site! Brandon and Pokemon? Sounds good to me. I like you! I'm glad you could make it here! And yeah, there are a lot of stubs. But, on the plus side, we're almost down to only 50% of the articles on the wiki being stubs--which is still atrocious, but it's less atrocious. I'm trying to work on completing more small articles to get the stub count down to 50% before Words of Radiance. Depending on your interests, you may find some good articles to edit here. That list contains a lot of articles that I thought would be easier to complete than others.

Good, that's what usually happens Almost all the time, they find their citation in that.

The Theoryland interview database is our best bet: http://theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php It contains a vast amount of information (and especially Wheel of Time related information) from a wide variety of sources. Originally, one of our members, Zas, created a thing called the Brandonothology, which was a compendium like you are talking about. However, the Brandonothology got way too long, so it is depreciated in favor of Theoryland's database. We (and by "we", I mean Windy) assist Theoryland with inputting and tagging things, but we are a bit behind. But for stuff that is less recent, it is essentially perfect. If you want information on a specific topic, I encourage you to go to the Coppermind (the "Wiki" link up at the top). The more cosmere related articles have very specific citations for something that Brandon said, and is probably the most efficient way to consume this information as a new Sharder, instead of poring over hundreds of interviews. We really try to keep the wiki up-to-date and informative, but it is always a work in progress. We try to have very good citations so even if an article's quality isn't the best (we don't have all that many regular editors), at least you can verify if that random fact about Shards or Hoid is accurate. It is really hard to be a new Sharder. I really do not envy you. But I really hope that the resources that exist are helpful, and at least make it a bit easier. If people are like, "I don't have a quote for that" and you don't believe them, feel free to call them on it. Nine times out of ten the information is in the Theoryland database and either Windy or I have heard of it before (because he inputs the info, and I read basically all of it XD). But it is a monumental effort, and the search in the database isn't the best, so sometimes it isn't the easiest to find the information. EDIT: Looks like I have been ninja'd. I would say some of the best Coppermind articles to read are Shard, Hoid, and Odium. Those contain a lot of the very important information from interviews.

Actually, it's in the Abilities section, with a citation That's the only other time Feruchemy is listed in the article, but it is totally cited!

Oops, looks like I screwed that up somehow. I fixed it now!

Sorry for having to disable the media player, guys! It was really bumping up our server load, I think.

Yes, there hasn't been much ShardCast recently, this is true. But that isn't to say it's dead. No no. We're introducing the Shardkeepers Podcast for your theorizing needs. We've wanted to get a theory podcast going, and now was a good time with the recent AMA. Listen in for some really great theories which Kerry and I already posted. This is where it came from I hope you enjoy it!

Yeah, there were some, uh, interesting serverside stuff going on yesterday. Thank goodness it's done today.

Have you ever been to 17th Shard? I mean, I agree with Mad Rand. The community is really overall nice. Notice how we haven't had any downvote issues at all since this topic started? Downvote abuse is really uncommon. In short, this isn't exactly 4chan. And we will actively make sure the community does not turn into that.

I would like to announce I'm editing Shardcast while tipsy. Nothing could go wrong with this.

I am absolutely, 100% certain that copperclouds do stack, but I can't find a quote that says that. I am pretty sure Brandon told me this a while ago, perhaps when we were less good at citing stuff. But I am very certain about this, because I have a character in the Mistborn RPG who uses coppercloud stacking, and I remember being very pleased when that was confirmed to actually work. Sorry I don't have a citation for you, though :/

I personally would use "ascension".

The divine Breath aren't sentient on their own, though, and those are definitely Splinters.

Here's a very short theory for you. I've always just accepted that Allomantic savants are a thing that can exist, but this recent quote, I feel, directly explains the mechanism for how savants happen. Burning metals makes an Investiture: In Alloy, in the thing about the Three Metallic Arts in the Ars Arcanum, it says: So it seems to me that if you constantly flared your metals and constantly having this Investiture running, then eventually that Investiture would begin to warp and change you. That's exactly what we see happening in savants. Nothing major, but I thought it was an interesting observation.

Yes, it is! When you listen to the podcast you can see we said them in quick succession. They are very complementary. I do intend to have this edited very soon and posted tonight or tomorrow. I owe a great intellectual debt to that entire discussion for giving me this idea about the Dor in the first place. This long wordy thing is basically me just wanting to describe why Devotion and Dominion could have converged, haha. Fair, but fortunately my conclusions work with that idea too. In fact I think that was rolling in my head too, as judging by this sentence: So, sure, the Dor is very regionally influenced too.

This theory is great. I wrote a theory on Devotion and Dominion's convergence into the Dor here that references this idea a lot. I personally maintain believe that Selish magics were not regionalized prior to Devotion and Dominion's Splintering, and that magic interactions would operate more like Scadrial, with only three magic systems, I think. My theory above explains why I think the Splintering would cause the change to regionalized magic (which is this theory's primary domain). But it isn't exactly important theoretically for either of our stuff; both are possible. It's impossible to say at this point. This is not true, I think you read something incorrectly somewhere. Forgery's power does diminish with distance, but obviously the Imperial Seat is not in MaiPon. Additionally, Dakhor monks aren't exactly pushovers in Teod.

You know, I think we kind of take it for granted how much we know about the cosmere. I remember not so long ago that Sel and Elantris was a complete mystery. We all argued over what Aona's Shard was, mostly to no avail. We had no idea about how the Shaod happened, and virtually no clue to how the Dor worked. These two mysteries have made theorizing about Sel pretty hard, to say the least. With the knowledge of Aona's Shard being Devotion, the theory that people who are particularly devoted to something get taken by the Shaod makes perfect sense, and matches with the Principle of Intent. Though a new mystery arose with Forgery and Bloodsealing: why are Selish magics so region locked, and what's so important about the land? Well, Kerry has pretty much answered this here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3363-devotion-dominion-and-magic-on-sel/ So really, the prime theoretical difficulty with Sel is the Dor. That's what this theory will hope to explain. Sel is very unique in its magic. Scadrial makes sense having three distinct magic systems, but Sel is way different, despite having just two powers. Even discounting the fact that there are way more than three magics on Sel, they are odd: they all channel the Dor, not Devotion or Dominion independently. They all focus the same power. And that's very bizarre, considering Scadrial's magics. Why does the Dor appear to act some homogenous thing? Any way you slice and dice it, it's odd. Is the Dor Devotion's power? No, because the Dakhor magic isn't really accessed in a way in line with Devotion--it really feels a lot more Dominion-like. Dakhor channels the Dor just as AonDor and Forgery do. So, clearly the Dor is some bizarre combination of Devotion and Dominion, for some reason. And no one has (to my knowledge) really given a complete treatise on why that might be. Any reasoning on the Dor's nature would need to explain how it is related to both Devotion and Dominion, and why it is this homogenous entity. It's certainly homogenous enough that Brandon has no qualms saying that virtually every Selish magic channels the Dor. First of all, I'm kind of assuming you've already read the Letter, which says Devotion and Dominion have Splintered. Additionally, much of the power left there is not under anything's control: Why does Brandon say "much" of the power on Sel? Well, the Seons and Skaze are related to Splinters, so those are the things controlling part of the power. But the rest? Presumably the Dor. So what is the Dor? The answer, I believe, comes straight from this quote: This blew me away. But, considering how important I find a Shard's intent, it's not exactly surprising that a way of altering the Shards is really fascinating to me. There's a discussion on this particular quote over here, and Windrunner and Senor Feesh suggested that this may have happened to Devotion and Dominion--that they are intermingled as well. If you'll allow me, I'd like to name this "intermingling" effect as convergence, as something this important--Shards beginning to merge--certainly would warrant an in-world term, I think. It also has a nice parallel with "conflux," which is what Brandon named a book that has to do with multiple worlds in a very direct fashion (instead of in the background, as things are now in the books). So, Ruin and Preservation are currently converging. This is because a common mind is holding them. I propose that Devotion and Dominion are also converging as well. But, the obvious question next is, why the heck would they be converging? Presumably, Sazed holding both Ruin and Preservation--one mind holding two powers--imposes some Cognitive change on the Shards. In the Realmatic terms like Shai, they are like two bricks in a wall, and they begin to think of themselves as a wall, not two separate bricks. This is, I think, the most intuitive way to explain Ruin and Preservation converging: the powers themselves are beginning to think of themselves as part of a greater whole, thus intermingling them to be considered Harmony. I would only assume that the longer Sazed holds these two power, the more Ruin and Preservation will see themselves as Harmony instead, perhaps eventually literally becoming one Shard permanently. As of now, they can still be split, so that indicates to me that this process definitely hasn't finished yet. Though, I suppose you could say that even a Shard isn't permanent, as Odium certainly Splintered Devotion and Dominion. The exact specifics on Ruin and Preservation's convergence to Harmony is certainly worth discussing, but let's switch back to Devotion and Dominion. Obviously whatever happened with Sazed didn't at all happen with Devotion and Dominion; no common mind holds them both. In fact, they are both more broken than ever. But that may be exactly the key. Whereas Ruin and Preservation in the order that Sazed's control of them imposes, Devotion and Dominion and both similar in that they are both without holders and pretty broken. I propose that this also makes Devotion and Dominion converge, and this combined power is exactly what the Dor is. Think of two vases, one white, and one black--Devotion and Dominion. Now throw them on the ground, so hard that they break into tiny pieces. Collect that pile, mix them up, and zoom out. If the pieces are small enough, the pile no longer looks like black or white; it looks grey instead. When two things are broken, they can combine in new ways, like two liquids forming a completely new mixture. Now I imagine this is a little different in Devotion and Dominion's case, as their pieces would be still tied to their respective intent, but I think eventually, this dramatic change from Odium Splintering them would mean that the leftover fragments would see themselves as a part of a new whole. After all, they both aren't being held, and are both broken. I think this makes a lot of sense as for why the Dor is the way that it is. (Now, you may wonder why I didn't use the word "Splinter" to describe these pieces of Devotion and Dominion, considering Odium Splintered them. Well, we know the Aons at the heart of the Seons are Splinters, and to no one's surprise Brandon hinted that Skaze are similar: The Seons and Skaze--presumably Devotion and Dominion's Splinters--are not enough of a release valve. So this means that there is a lot of power that isn't under anything's control. Duh, since there was no indication the Dor acted any other way. In lieu of a cosmere term to call the pieces of Devotion and Dominion's power, that's why I stayed with vague words like "fragments." We just can't really say they are Splinters, or anything about them.) I totally understand if the analogy I made isn't particularly compelling, but it certainly matches with our conception with the Dor being a unified, mindless whole. It fits with those quotes above. But, maybe you want a little more persuading, so let's talk about some consequences of Devotion and Dominion's convergence, especially on magic. Before Devotion and Dominion's Splintering, magic worked differently on Sel (though I can't find that quote right now). It isn't a big leap to say that perhaps the regionalizing of Selish magic happened due to the Splintering of the Shard. Maybe before the Splintering, there were three magics on Sel, like Scadrial. Kerry's theory about Identity, people have an Identity tied their nationality, culture, and heritage. Her theory basically explains in how magic can be tied to the land, and how it lines up with Devotion and Dominion's intents. But why might have Devotion and Dominion's Splintering even had this effect of tying the magic to the land? Well, Allomancy requires a connection to Preservation, and on a less magical level, people that are freaking ruinous would use Hemalurgy. Perhaps, due to Devotion and Dominion's Splintering and this convergence, people can't use magic with a connection to Devotion or Dominion directly, because they don't exist in the same way. Instead, the "largest" thing that people have a connection or Identity to--instead these all-powerful Shards--is their culture and nationality. People with a strong Devotion or Dominion with that, as Kerry's theory suggests, would now be able to use magic. It's all because Devotion and Dominion are Splintered, and their power doesn't have as strong of identity, so it is shaped by the identity of manmade, regional borders. If anything, the Reod and the Chasm teaches us that these magics are actually very fluid. Aons that worked a thousand years ago may need to be refined. Perhaps as regions and countries change, or as ethnicities converge (see what I did there?) entirely different magics can form. Now, I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure if each regional magic is of Devotion or Dominion explicitly. After all, that's been the standing assumption with AonDor: it's of Devotion, not Dominion, and likewise Dakhor is of Dominion, not Devotion. But, it's a lot harder with ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing to decide. I am leaning to the idea that each magic can be in line with any sort of combination of Devotion and Dominion. Kerry connects all regional magics with both Devotion and Dominion, so I don't find this hard to believe. So, maybe presently on Sel, a magic is a certain percentage Devotion and Dominion. Unlike Scadrial where magics are 100% Preservation, 100% Ruin, or a 50/50 split, on Sel you could have 73%/27%. Who knows. It's entirely possible that we think of AonDor and Dakhor as Devotion and Dominion-heavy magics because the Seons and Skaze, which are related to Splinters of Devotion and Dominion, exist in these two regions, and so tilt the region's balance toward one Shard or the other. In fact, though I totally riffed that just now, it seems to make sense with the Identity idea. A region's Identity would be related to a ton of different factors, and maybe the nature of a given culture tilts the way a region's magic accesses Devotion and Dominion. Here's an interesting quote on that note: So it's the exact nature of the Dor which makes it regionalized. I don't think the Dor has an intent, like Harmony does. The Dor is a product of chaos and brokenness. When something changes in the Physical and Cognitive, this can have a reflection in the Dor, so these distinct cultural Identities have an effect on the Dor. What do you think? Admittedly, while this works really well for Sel, I'm not sure what is different on Roshar, which despite having Honor Splintered, has a non-regionalized magic in Surgebinding. It could just be that the nature of Honor and Cultivation don't result in regionalization. But, it would explain how some spren are of Honor and Cultivation. It's hard to say at this point, and while there can be more to this than I'm catching here, it seems very theoretically solid for Sel.

I think both of you have valid points, and both pro-downvote and anti-downvote sides have some good points, but we will definitely be keeping downvotes for the foreseeable future. It is possible this can change, but not for a long time, I should think. I would say that everyone should use both up and downvotes as methods of promoting good discussion and providing learning experiences for... well, less thoughtful discussion. We'll see if I can get a rep reason system in. I do encourage you to respectfully state your issues with a post that you've downvoted in order to continue to foster discussion, but there are also reasons why you would not wish to do that (for example, you are worried about someone blaming you and possible retaliation, or perhaps you simply don't want to feed the troll, but want to send a message that wasn't cool). As always we will ensure the reputation system is not abused. I'm not trying to shut down this topic, because I do really like hearing feedback on the rep system, and I encourage people to say there mind on the issue. However, we will be keeping downvotes for the foreseeable future. Carry on XD I have not forgotten about making that neutral zone from -5 to 5 rep, but I know how to do it now and I will do it tomorrow. I will also try and make that red color a bit more muted.

On that note of 17th Shard being awesome (and I am always up for giving ourselves a pat on the back ) I would like to announce two things! You may have obviously noted how crazy activity the board it's been this month. Indeed, those hit statistics I mentioned before certainly support that, but now forum data says so as well. April 2013 has been the most active month since March 2012. This month, as I post this, has had 2,594 posts, which surpasses September 2012 (2528 posts) which was previous most active month since March 2012. That March had our most posts ever actually, with 3472. So uh, yeah we're not going to be able to surpass that March this month, but dang guys, I can only imagine how crazy things are going to be after Words of Radiance comes out. Also, this month had the second most new topics per month, with 182, shortly before the record holder of 185, which was November 2011. There, with the actually worthwhile announcements out of the way, we can talk about what is really important: my reputation count! Hey, check it out, a new Reputation level! The first member to achieve it! Well... besides Brandon, but hush

I completely agree. In fact, you two have given me a really great idea on exactly how they can intermingle, because if they have intermingled, it is clearly in a way that is very different from Harmony.

That is perfectly fair, and perfectly understandable 17th Shard is a home for non-theorizers too. But, theories are an important part of why people come here as well, which is why this topic exists. It gets people excited. It doesn't have to get you excited, but if you aren't excited about the topic at hand, no need to say so Let it by and comment in posts you are passionate about and have something to add.

I have actually found a hook that would allow for reasons for up and downvotes and from what I can see, it works largely as Meg says. I need to do testing on it to see if it would work for our purposes, but I have had a busy weekend.

All three of the endings in the Mistborn trilogy got me. Of those, the Lord Ruler being Rashek is probably the one that hit the hardest, which I still think is one of the best plot twists period. I never saw it coming. In The Way of Kings, I totally did not see Dalinar giving up his Shardblade. It was just... so so perfect.