Shardcast: Cosmere Beefs 2 - Beef Stew

Great podcast! I understand you didn’t want to go into Lux spoilers, but my big beef is:

Plus the many unnamed mothers throughout Brandon’s books.

My eternal beef: Amaram was done dirty in Oathbringer and in general Brandon has a habit of taking complicated, conflicted, morally gray villains and turning them into mustache twirling villains so he can have his heroes guiltlessly kill them and move on to other villains. Amaram’s conversion to Odium should not have happened entirely off-screen and having him turn into a blob monster who could be killed without guilt was a bad decision by the author. 
 

Also, Brandon has had too many arranged marriages work-out and killed too many wives and mothers in people’s backstories. 

Also, I agree with Ella, Brandon dropped the ball on the class struggles and Kaladin should have stayed angry at the Lighteyes. 

I really appreciate the discussion about class struggle, there's so much I could say. I do still have hope that Brandon can deal with these issues through Lift's perspective as a major character in the back five books! She is someone who also comes from the lower class, has had to deal with a lot of hardship and trauma that come with being a dark-eyed orphan, and in her own special way she has a real sensitivity to the struggles and voices of ordinary people. Edgedancer ideals are really themed around recognising oppression and listening to marginalised people so hopefully we will see an in depth exploration of these important issues there!

Oh the Bridge 4 have opinions about it, they're not Kaladin's yes-men. Joining in with Adolin and ribbing Kal. Class struggles are so behind them. Also, look at Tenners: they're Lighteyes but like us™, also look at your own eye colour now, Kal. Those are literally things they've said. Oh, I'm getting flashbacks to Elhokar's reaction at the stadium now, and Dalinar's "be a good boy" lecture now. Since the last Shardcast on this topic, I've felt kinda salty that Adolin and Jasnah just get to shank people who made them angry in dark alleys and walk away.

Ah, Kelsier and his anger at the Nobles. Because the Pits of Hathsin, fountains running red from executions, little beggar children getting killed for getting too near parties, skaa plantations, the Pits of Hathsin, Elend's "Skaa have the same intelligence level!" were not reasons enough to be angry. He's gonna go Moash too, isn't he *sigh*

16 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

My eternal beef: Amaram was done dirty in Oathbringer and in general Brandon has a habit of taking complicated, conflicted, morally gray villains and turning them into mustache twirling villains so he can have his heroes guiltlessly kill them and move on to other villains. Amaram’s conversion to Odium should not have happened entirely off-screen and having him turn into a blob monster who could be killed without guilt was a bad decision by the author. 

Also, Brandon has had too many arranged marriages work-out and killed too many wives and mothers in people’s backstories. 

Yeah, Brandon chose the surprise twist over the character development in the case of Amaram. 

I feel like the "Pure Tones" or music magic was foreshadowed by "The Rhythms" of the Singers, also the name Singers implies it.  In The Way of Kings Kabsul shows how the Dawncities made by the Dawnsingers are shaped in accordance with sound (Cymatics). https://coppermind.net/wiki/Kabsal

That said eyes did glaze reading the experiments being conducted with the Tones. I didn't find it interesting. 

I suspect the anger issue is not intentional. I don't think Brandon is trying to claim that anger isn't justified for these characters, but I do think the writing doesn't completely follow through on their struggles. Maybe he feels he mentioned why they are angry and that it has a real cause and that covered it.

Maybe Brandon's faith is a part of that, forgiveness is kind of a big deal in Christianity in general. There is an element of "don't let your anger control your life" in lots of his books, I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, but I agree the issue is that the source of their justified anger isn't addressed as fully as maybe it should be. I am still hoping for Stormlight to follow this through more fully.

Differentiating between healthy ways to use anger vs dangerous ones, resolving social issues, and different kinds of anger (interpersonal anger, social justice rage, and self loathing are all really different) would be awesome. I'm looking forward to these evolving in new in interesting ways in future books...I hope...

I think it's awesome that the main characters in the Cosmere learn that the circumstances of their lives (being skaa, darkeyed, etc.) have infinitely less affect on their happiness than the focus of their lives (helping others, swearing oaths, bringing down the Lord Ruler, becoming a better individual, etc.). Initially a lot of them are angry at their circumstances, but most (if not all) of the good characters move past that and focus on bettering themselves, and that's a really good message for today's world.

My biggest issue with Starsight (besides the delvers :P) definitely was the immediate and steep turn away from anything book one was. Skyward established itself as a space battle flight school book, on a relatively small scale when compared to the cosmere, and the nosedive into the entire rest of the galaxy was a bit of a shock for me. The worldbuilding is good, just... not that much of it.

Veil's reintegration was my favorite scene in the book and I will die on that hill as a Shallan-lover  

11 hours ago, EddyJ said:

I think it's awesome that the main characters in the Cosmere learn that the circumstances of their lives (being skaa, darkeyed, etc.) have infinitely less affect on their happiness than the focus of their lives (helping others, swearing oaths, bringing down the Lord Ruler, becoming a better individual, etc.). Initially a lot of them are angry at their circumstances, but most (if not all) of the good characters move past that and focus on bettering themselves, and that's a really good message for today's world.

I'd argue they could use their righteous anger at a corrupt and broken system to change it, instead of having Jasnah swoop in and change a millennia old system of slavery and and a caste system with one stroke of the pen. Kaladin is right to be angry about how he was treated by the Lighteyes. Kelsier was right to be angry at the nobles and how they treated Ska. Even Vivenna was right to be angry at the Hallendren and their constant threat to destroy her home country. it's how you use that anger that makes the difference.

A lot of great points in here, great work! One thing though, there is a dark-eyed female main character, and that's Lift.

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

A lot of great points in here, great work! One thing though, there is a dark-eyed female main character, and that's Lift.

Lift is kind of a weird case. She is darkeyed, but she also doesn't live within the Vorin caste system and almost immediately after she's introduced she starts living a life of luxury since she's friends with the newly elevated Prime of Azir. Not to mention, as a Shardbearer she's a de facto lighteyes now.

That being said, her story does seem to deal with how the lower class is treated due to her own background as a street urchin and her duties as an Edgedancer. It's very possible that her story will deal with these issues in more depth once we get to her book.

On 10/12/2021 at 10:40 AM, LuckyJim said:

Lift is kind of a weird case. She is darkeyed, but she also doesn't live within the Vorin caste system and almost immediately after she's introduced she starts living a life of luxury since she's friends with the newly elevated Prime of Azir. Not to mention, as a Shardbearer she's a de facto lighteyes now.

That being said, her story does seem to deal with how the lower class is treated due to her own background as a street urchin and her duties as an Edgedancer. It's very possible that her story will deal with these issues in more depth once we get to her book.

I imagine most of her eventual flashback book will be about her growing up as a street urchin in Iri though. 

I loved this episode, guys! My thoughts: 

• The Delvers are disappointing to an almost-concerning degree. (Keeping in mind I haven't read any cytonic novellas yet!) Chaos was very on-point with that beef. The delvers are terrifying and super-spooky in Skyward, and then when Starsight dramatically pivots to a completely different kind of sci-fi book, the Delvers are de-mystified and un-spookied.
• With all the incredible foreshadowing Brandon tends to do, I'm surprised how unsettling and unsatisfying the "pure tones of Roshar" thing is on a thematic, big-picture level.
  • Other than being innately important to Singers/Listeners, and their physiology, I didn't think that music had any particular significance in the cosmere, or on this planet. 
  • THAT SAID: In my WoK reread (first-ever reread!!!) happening now, I'm noticing that Kabsal mentions cymatics a few times, and makes some strange magical music rust happen. I can't wait to keep rereading!
• Kaladin's complacency towards the class struggle in later books is probably the biggest beef I have, after having stewed (yesss) on this for a few days. Because Amaram and Roshone are no longer relevant, Kal's anger towards the caste system is made less important, especially throughout RoW.

Just now, sugjesstive said:

lalalala

• Kabsal mentions cymatics a few times, and makes some strange magical music rust happen

I also just learned that cursewords for doo-doo are autocorrected to rust. So sorry! 

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm listening to the first Beefs episode and I have thoughts!

My biggest two cosmere beefs to date:

Wayne ruining Wax and Steris' wedding. The whole water tower thing. It's so over the top that it throws me out, and I have a hard time buying that Marasi wouldn't turn him in after causing so much wanton destruction, even indirectly.

UUUUGH the whole thing in Elantris where it's such a heavy-handed metaphor against welfare. It seems so out of place with what I know of Brandon and what I see in his other work.