Maya and deadeyes

[Wyn0907 he/him]

Bear with me since this is my first post (also hi)

ive just been rereading Rhythm of war and its occurred to me that how the spren treat the deadeyes is similar to how the ardents treat the damaged soldiers. So maybe (although maya definitely has a bond with Adolin) all the deadeyes need to recover is to take a bit of time out with sane people. Sorry if this has been mentioned before or badly phrased, no one I know reads that much 

[+Invocation]

I would totally believe there's a parallel there. They both just need the right kind of treatment.

Maybe this is how Roshar becomes the cosmere planet famous for therapy.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Invocation said:

Maybe this is how Roshar becomes the cosmere planet famous for therapy.

I um,

What now?

Is there a WoB I missed?

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I um,

What now?

Is there a WoB I missed?

No, I just like joking that since spren can be mini therapists for their Radiants (and vice versa), therapy is one of the things Roshar could export in the space age.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Invocation

[Guest]

Also, it's the only world where a main character has taken an interest in therapy. 

BTW, it is now totally head-cannon that Roshar is the place for storms, mad gods and therapists.

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, DougTheRug said:

BTW, it is now totally head-cannon that Roshar is the place for storms, mad gods and therapists.

Imagine that travel poster.

Come to Roshar! We've got two and a half perpetual hurricanes, more insane deities than we know what to do with, and were forced to develop therapy to deal with the ramifications of these things! It's a fun place, we promise.

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

6 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

mad gods

I’m pretty sure that’s just the cosmere

[+Invocation]

25 minutes ago, Szeth_Pancakes said:

I’m pretty sure that’s just the cosmere

I don't know, Cultivation seems fairly sane. And I'm pretty sure the dead ones are mentally stable again  

Edited August 11, 2021 by Invocation

[Kered he/him]

Kaladin treating spren depression and mental illness is the content I'm here for. 

 

[Rushu42 she/her]

On 8/9/2021 at 0:58 PM, Wyn0907 said:

Bear with me since this is my first post (also hi)

ive just been rereading Rhythm of war and its occurred to me that how the spren treat the deadeyes is similar to how the ardents treat the damaged soldiers. So maybe (although maya definitely has a bond with Adolin) all the deadeyes need to recover is to take a bit of time out with sane people. Sorry if this has been mentioned before or badly phrased, no one I know reads that much 

I do love all the themes of recovering from mental illness in the books, so I'm sure there are elements of that - however, from a mechanics standpoint, I believe more is required. After all, not all deadeyes are sent to places like Lasting Integrity; we saw deadeyes being looked after by old friends, for example. Testament was being watched over by that inkspren when she was found, after all, and I'm sure that in 2,000 years at least someone tried talking to a deadeye (akin to the way someone might talk to a gravestone, if nothing else). 

Personally, I'd guess that the recovery process requires something similar to a Nahel Bond, a way to replace the spren's broken Connection. 

(Elantris spoilers)

Spoiler

The whole situation with the deadeyes reminds me of the way that the Shaod functioned when the Connection to the Dor was severed - I believe that there's something similar going on here, and reviving a deadeye requires some way to heal or replace that disconnect.

 

[mathiau he/him]

On 10/08/2021 at 11:03 PM, Invocation said:

Imagine that travel poster.

Come to Roshar! We've got two and a half perpetual hurricanes, more insane deities than we know what to do with, and were forced to develop therapy to deal with the ramifications of these things! It's a fun place, we promise.

Wait. "And a half"?

[Rushu42 she/her]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Wait. "And a half"?

Maybe referring to the Weeping?

[+Invocation]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Wait. "And a half"?

I was counting the protective storm around Akinah as the half. It doesn't move like the Ever- and highstorms do, so I didn't feel it counted fully.

[apepi]

I do wonder how all the Deadeyes somehow knew to be at Adolin's case, it seemed like they were coming there on purpose, like they knew that they needed to be there.

I guess it could semi make sense, as Adolin has faced a lot of other shardblades before, they must somehow know who he is, he has won plenty of them dueling, so he might have more of a Connection with them than other people.

Also, how do the singers/listeners see deadeyes? Have see heard any of them talk about them before?

[Truthwatcher94]

On 8/16/2021 at 0:45 PM, apepi said:

Also, how do the singers/listeners see deadeyes? Have see heard any of them talk about them before?

In the Physical Realm, they see them as Shardblades, same as everyone. Eshonai owned one before she was killed and I don’t recall her saying something weird about it. 

Now, if you’re asking how the singers/listeners feel about the deadeye-situation, I’d say they feel indifferent since the whole spren-betrayed-us incident and maybe a little of you-get-what-you-deserve kind of feeling? I guess it depends on how much they blame the sprens for abandoning them and forcing their ancestors to be slaves of Odium. 

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 15/08/2021 at 6:28 PM, Rushu42 said:

(Elantris spoilers)

  Hide contents

The whole situation with the deadeyes reminds me of the way that the Shaod functioned when the Connection to the Dor was severed - I believe that there's something similar going on here, and reviving a deadeye requires some way to heal or replace that disconnect.

 

Elantris spoilers

Spoiler

I don't remember right now, but did the broken seons get healed after Elantris was restored? They are the ones that deadeyes remind me of, more than the Elantrians themselves.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by ShardlessVessel
Clarification

[CryoZenith he/him]

On 11.08.2021 at 4:58 AM, Invocation said:

I don't know, Cultivation seems fairly sane. And I'm pretty sure the dead ones are mentally stable again  

I don't know if I would *exactly* call her sane.

Quote

Questioner

So, in Oathbringer, when Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher, we see Cultivation intervene directly. How closely does she supervise other Nightwatcher visits? ...Could the Nightwatcher give a boon that Cultivation wouldn't want her to?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes. "Wouldn't want her to" is a strong phrase. Like, Cultivation is always aware of what's going on. Cultivation rarely intervenes, even if she thinks it would be a bad boon, because she wants the Nightwatcher to learn. And she also is very interested in seeing what happens. So, rarely intervenes, but is aware.

Questioner

Would she intervene if she thought the boon would help Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Now yes, you could argue that this is a case of inhuman terminal goals rather than insanity (in the same way that the Paperclip Maximizing AI is arguably perfectly sane, since sanity is more about how instrumentally rational your methods are than which goals you have per se) but in practice you arrive at the same place.

Honestly, from what we've seen so far, the most "sane" god has been Harmony, and he has the very unfair advantage of being young.

[Wandering Shade]

On 8/15/2021 at 11:45 PM, apepi said:

I do wonder how all the Deadeyes somehow knew to be at Adolin's case, it seemed like they were coming there on purpose, like they knew that they needed to be there.

I guess it could semi make sense, as Adolin has faced a lot of other shardblades before, they must somehow know who he is, he has won plenty of them dueling, so he might have more of a Connection with them than other people.

This post just made me go down a whole rabbit hole of theorizing.

 

Adolin has helped "heal" Maya a little. Why? Besides him being Best Boi, he's got a stronger Connection to her than most Shardbearers have with their Blades and with that was able to give her a little of his "strength" to let her speak her mind. Why? Because he's always treated her with respect and spoken to her, even before he knew she was a spren, and after he did learn he started really treating her like a person rather than an object.

Where did Adolin learn to treat his Blade so well? When training Radiant in swordsmanship, Shallan realizes that he talks a lot about treating the Blade with respect and theorizes that its from the ancient Radiants understanding of Shardblades as living creatures filtering down into duelist training. Fair enough, sounds about right. But, who taught Adolin swordsmanship? Zahel.

Vasher trained Adolin in swordsmanship. Now, Vasher clearly trained him in the traditional Rosharan dueling stances, but Vasher has his own unique perspective and experiences that he's bringing to the table as a trainer. Vasher has used Nightblood which is a sentient Shardblade, and we've seen him thanking his Awakened objects because he knows that its possible that they have sentience like Nightblood. Would Vasher have, consciously or unconsciously, taught Adolin to do the same to his weapon? Maybe, that sounds reasonable to me.

But lets take this theory one step further.

Despite training Kaladin and Renarin on screen in using Shardblades, we never once see Vasher hold a Shardblade*. Why?

I think Vasher can hear their screams. He's an Awakener with an unknown but probably large number of breaths and a Returned. He's heavily Invested. We know all Surgebinders and Fused can hear the screams, which seems to me like you just have to be Invested to hear them.

I'm decently sure that if nothing else, Vasher can hear the screams of Deadeyes and that combined with his experiences with Nightblood and the basic sword training philosophy of Roshar has resulted in Adolin being kinder and more respectful of Maya than any other Shardbearer in history.

*Edit: We have seen Zahel use a Shardblade while training Kaladin, but it was for an incredibly brief period of time. I think my point still stands.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Wandering Shade

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

Vasher has used Nightblood which is a sentient Shardblade, and we've seen him thanking his Awakened objects because he knows that its possible that they have sentience like Nightblood. Would Vasher have, consciously or unconsciously, taught Adolin to do the same to his weapon? Maybe, that sounds reasonable to me.

He might even also know that they're spren already. Shashara and him based Nightblood off of Shardblades, and they came to Roshar through Shadesmar, so they would've encountered both deadeyes and the living spren and may have asked what was up with them and found out the connection.

1 hour ago, Wandering Shade said:

I think Vasher can hear their screams. He's an Awakener with an unknown but probably large number of breaths and a Returned. He's heavily Invested. We know all Surgebinders and Fused can hear the screams, which seems to me like you just have to be Invested to hear them.

I definitely think this is very likely. I can't really think of any other reason the Fused would hear the screams, and Vasher is certainly pretty dang Invested.

[CryoZenith he/him]

20 hours ago, Wandering Shade said:

I'm decently sure that if nothing else, Vasher can hear the screams of Deadeyes and that combined with his experiences with Nightblood and the basic sword training philosophy of Roshar has resulted in Adolin being kinder and more respectful of Maya than any other Shardbearer in history.

This leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Think about what the Recreance was.

1. You are a bunch of people who genuinely believe what you're doing is right.

2. You are a bunch of people virtuous enough to have been able to speak multiple Oaths and stick to them for decades.

3. You are a bunch of people who didn't predict ahead of time what your actions would do to your spren, because pre-Recreance breaking oaths didn't deadeye spren.

4.  You are a bunch of people who personally knew, on an intimate level, their spren before they became deadeyes.

5. There's hundreds of you at minimum.

6. By pure and unfathomable coincidence, Adolin is kinder and more respectful of Maya than any of you of your deadeye spren, in spite of all the factors listed above.

Like, I AGREE with you that the fact that Maya being the most "responsive" deadeye is because of Adolin's behavior. I'm just saying the implications of his treatment of Maya never having been replicated or surpassed in the past are huge. I'm even tempted to use the word "plot hole" right now, and have a feeling that Sando might've done an oopsie.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, CryoZenith said:

This leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Think about what the Recreance was.

1. You are a bunch of people who genuinely believe what you're doing is right.

2. You are a bunch of people virtuous enough to have been able to speak multiple Oaths and stick to them for decades.

3. You are a bunch of people who didn't predict ahead of time what your actions would do to your spren, because pre-Recreance breaking oaths didn't deadeye spren.

4.  You are a bunch of people who personally knew, on an intimate level, their spren before they became deadeyes.

5. There's hundreds of you at minimum.

6. By pure and unfathomable coincidence, Adolin is kinder and more respectful of Maya than any of you of your deadeye spren, in spite of all the factors listed above.

Like, I AGREE with you that the fact that Maya being the most "responsive" deadeye is because of Adolin's behavior. I'm just saying the implications of his treatment of Maya never having been replicated or surpassed in the past are huge. I'm even tempted to use the word "plot hole" right now, and have a feeling that Sando might've done an oopsie.

Well, I believe that most of the radiants were killed shortly after they broke their oaths. And it's not like they kept using their dead spren as shardblades.

[cometaryorbit]

That might indeed be the key point- they left the dead Blades behind (from the Feverstone Keep vision) and so didn't stay in contact with or use them to rebuild the bond.

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:11 AM, CryoZenith said:

I don't know if I would *exactly* call her sane.

Now yes, you could argue that this is a case of inhuman terminal goals rather than insanity

Well I think every Vessel that's held a Shard for thousands of years is mentally inhuman in that sense, warped by Intent to be as much a force as a person.

[ConfusedCow]

It feels too obvious. We're supposed to believe Maya is getting better because of Adolin's kindness.  What if Maya's recovery is part of Odium's plan?  Healing Maya might be an excellent step towards recruiting Adolin.