The Sibling Question

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I was thinking about that actually. 
but if this was the case why did the Spren disappear. The Parshendi were there to imagine the genders.

And woudnt humans have imagined that when the Desalations were happening 

Probably due to the Singer betrayal

[Bejarden he/him]

What would that do exactly?

Now the Spren are only imagined by Parshendi, that’s fine.

why would pieces of sentient (or animalistic) investiture stop being created with 4 genders if there is still people who have those in their cultures

 

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I was thinking about that actually. 
but if this was the case why did the Spren disappear. The Parshendi were there to imagine the genders.

And woudnt humans have imagined that when the Desalations were happening 

Well, the singers have been sort of mindless for thousands of years, and they view the spren as human allies, so they might imagine the spren as human.

[Bejarden he/him]

I would imagine that the singers would imagine that the Radients spren are human.

But a regular rock spren or whatever they might personifie it as their own species

anyway this is getting pretty off track 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[+Invocation]

I picture the Sibling kind of like an original pattern that became the thunderclast. A large spren made of rock with veins of bronze-looking metal shot through them. Not visibly gendered in any of the four ways Roshar has to offer.

[Proletariat]

16 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It, the singular non-gendered pronoun. “They” just annoys me for being grammatically incorrect. Why can’t we use ‘it’ in the same way it’s always been used? He and she are also used for objects and animals, but no one seems to have an issue with that...

I imagine the sibling sounding like a Castrati, much like Sazed. This link will explain a bit about Castrati and has the music of the only one to be recorded. Stunning voice, but a horrible thing to do to a child.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/06/hear-alessandro-moreschi-the-only-castrato-ever-recorded-sing-ave-maria-and-other-classics-1904.html

For a speaking voice: 

Jimmy Scott was a natural “Castrati”, whose voice never broke.

They has a long history as a gender neutral pronoun. I remember they being used even in the Chaucer book I had to do for high school, which would've been 500 years ago or something. It would be revisionist to try to use 'it' for a being with whom humans socially interact for grammar reasons. They might be too alien to express themselves as gendered, but they're still sentient.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Proletariat said:

They has a long history as a gender neutral pronoun. I remember they being used even in the Chaucer book I had to do for high school, which would've been 500 years ago or something. It would be revisionist to try to use 'it' for a being with whom humans socially interact for grammar reasons. They might be too alien to express themselves as gendered, but they're still sentient.

AI is often depicted as scentient but I would still call it an 'it'.

[AquaRegia he/him]

22 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’ve always seen it as simply the non-gendered singular. No connotations involved. I think that if we started using it for humans the negative connotation would vanish within a couple of generations, for those that have such connotations. 

But then, my brain is a little odd. 

22 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

You could be 100% right on this.

But the world today especially in America is very unforgiving on these sorts of things.

So Brandon as an author would have to take the safe route on this. 

These are both valid points.  However, I want to make it clear that this is not just a "Brandon as an author" issue, not just a "shortcomings of English" issue, not just a "politically correct offended America" issue.  This is a real-life present day social and cultural issue which is having real effects on real people all over the world.  Brandon is fully aware of this and is consciously taking a position on it through his fiction; I believe it is the correct position, and that "they", while imperfect, is the best option.

If you honestly think referring to people as "it" is harmless, try it with your friends' children and let me know how it goes.  "Your baby is so cute!  Is it sleeping well?"  People who are already struggling with gender issues don't need the added weight of unintentional dehumanization... and while you may not be aware, plenty of hurtful and small-minded people DO use "it" to refer to gender nonbinary people - on purpose - knowing full well how it "un-persons" them.  Read a few posts on social media about Dr. Rachel Levine and you'll see what I mean.  "A few generations" of vulnerable people being further victimized?  No, thank you.

The fact is that people DO exist who do not fit into black-and-white binary genders, and who prefer to not be referred to as either "he" or "she"; I know several myself.  We need SOMETHING.  There are really only three options:

"It" is widely understood to refer to inanimate objects and NOT people.  As I noted before, evil stems from treating people as objects... and it's ALREADY happening.  It needs to stop.

We could invent new pronouns, and people have tried.  None have caught on widely, and all seem weird and unfamiliar - adding rather than removing barriers to understanding.

"They" already exists, and has (yes, incorrectly) been used colloquially as singular for some time.  Every gender nonbinary person I know prefers 'they/them".  The same argument made about "it" applies here; if we do it for a while, the wrongness will wear off.  "You" is both singular and plural in English.  Annoying, yes, but we all got used to it!

I apologize if my tone seems confrontational or makes anyone feel picked on - I promise that is not my intention.  But I have strong feelings about this... and from what I've read, I believe Brandon largely shares my feelings.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

These are both valid points.  However, I want to make it clear that this is not just a "Brandon as an author" issue, not just a "shortcomings of English" issue, not just a "politically correct offended America" issue. 

I suppose this conversation would inevitably turn to politics.

I move to table this discussion to save mods the trouble

Edited April 17, 2021 by Frustration

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Proletariat said:

They has a long history as a gender neutral pronoun. I remember they being used even in the Chaucer book I had to do for high school, which would've been 500 years ago or something. It would be revisionist to try to use 'it' for a being with whom humans socially interact for grammar reasons. They might be too alien to express themselves as gendered, but they're still sentient.

Been in use in various forms since at least 1375, according to the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

9 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

These are both valid points.  However, I want to make it clear that this is not just a "Brandon as an author" issue, not just a "shortcomings of English" issue, not just a "politically correct offended America" issue.  This is a real-life present day social and cultural issue which is having real effects on real people all over the world.  Brandon is fully aware of this and is consciously taking a position on it through his fiction; I believe it is the correct position, and that "they", while imperfect, is the best option.

If you honestly think referring to people as "it" is harmless, try it with your friends' children and let me know how it goes.  "Your baby is so cute!  Is it sleeping well?"  People who are already struggling with gender issues don't need the added weight of unintentional dehumanization... and while you may not be aware, plenty of hurtful and small-minded people DO use "it" to refer to gender nonbinary people - on purpose - knowing full well how it "un-persons" them.  Read a few posts on social media about Dr. Rachel Levine and you'll see what I mean.  "A few generations" of vulnerable people being further victimized?  No, thank you.

The fact is that people DO exist who do not fit into black-and-white binary genders, and who prefer to not be referred to as either "he" or "she"; I know several myself.  We need SOMETHING.  There are really only three options:

"It" is widely understood to refer to inanimate objects and NOT people.  As I noted before, evil stems from treating people as objects... and it's ALREADY happening.  It needs to stop.

We could invent new pronouns, and people have tried.  None have caught on widely, and all seem weird and unfamiliar - adding rather than removing barriers to understanding.

"They" already exists, and has (yes, incorrectly) been used colloquially as singular for some time.  Every gender nonbinary person I know prefers 'they/them".  The same argument made about "it" applies here; if we do it for a while, the wrongness will wear off.  "You" is both singular and plural in English.  Annoying, yes, but we all got used to it!

I apologize if my tone seems confrontational or makes anyone feel picked on - I promise that is not my intention.  But I have strong feelings about this... and from what I've read, I believe Brandon largely shares my feelings.

I used ‘it’ for my unborn children until I knew their genders, so... I suspect my view comes from seeing the word used in Bujold and other sci-fi writers stories as the singular gender neutral pronoun. I’d want to be called ‘it’ if I wasn’t okay with my gender now (which I wasn’t for a very long time, so thanks for assuming.) Of course, I also have a NVLD, so my view of these things tends to be unusual.

[AquaRegia he/him]

My browser recommended an interesting article today which I thought might help in this discussion:

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/06/gender-neutral-pronouns-arent-new/619092/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Of particular note:  "Likely the oldest gender-neutral pronoun in the English language is the singular they, which was, for centuries, a common way to identify a person whose gender was indefinite. For a time in the 1600s, medical texts even referred to individuals who did not accord with binary gender standards as they/them. The pronoun’s fortunes were reversed only in the 18th century, when the notion that the singular they was grammatically incorrect came into vogue among linguists."

[The Sibling she/her]

The Sibling uses they/them pronouns.

Edited January 31, 2022 by The Sibling

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, The Sibling said:

The Sibling uses they/them pronouns.

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