Matching the Unmade with the Heralds' madness

[+mdross81]

So I know there have been a number of attempts over the years to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. In this post, I also try to match them up, but this isn't another theory about the Unmade being corrupted versions of or split off from the Heralds. Rather, I'm positing that the Unmade are drawn to (or maybe represent, or exacerbate) manifestations of the various forms of madness being experienced by the Heralds and the mal-adaptive ways they are trying to cope with their madness.

I got the idea from a side tangent in another thread about whether a Bondsmith is necessary to entrap an Unmade. I think the consensus opinion there is that you don't necessarily need a Bondsmith, but you definitely need someone with a deep understanding of the particular Unmade. For example, Shallan is able to see that Re-Shephir is afraid of her because at some time in the past Re-Shephir had been imprisoned "by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature." (OB 30).

This got me thinking more generally about how artifabrians have to attract spren with something they know in order to trap them in gems. But that idea of attraction also reminded me of something Jezrien (as Ahu) said during a drunken conversation with Dalinar in Oathbringer:

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“I like you,” Ahu said to Dalinar. “I like the pain in your eyes. Friendly pain. Companionable pain.”

“Thanks.”

“Which one got to you, little child?” Ahu asked. “The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Faceless? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls.”

“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

Jezrien here seems to be drawing a line between the Heralds' madness and the Unmade. From context here, I take it that the "we" in his statements refers to the Heralds and the "them" to the Unmade. So, what might the Heralds have done to attract the Unmade? I think has something to do with the way the Heralds' minds are experiencing a sort of cognitive dissonance with human perceptions of them, and with the different ways that the Heralds are trying to cope with that madness. Here's a WOB on the subject:

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Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

Shalash is the clearest example of this. Vorinism associates her with the divine attributes of creativity and honesty. But she knows the Heralds were dishonest, and is driven to destroy depictions (copies) of her. Her madness is characterized by the opposites of her attributes: Creativity - Copying; Honesty - Lies. This matches up pretty neatly with Re-Shephir, who we see is drawn to Shallan's lies (her illusions) and spawns copies of the violence she sees.

Further, given Jezrien's belief that Dalinar had attracted the attention of an Unmade, I'm wondering if maybe the Unmade are not just drawn to the Heralds' madness or coping mechanisms but to others who exhibit the same behavior.

Reasoning along these lines, here's my attempt to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. Of necessity I begin with the Heralds we have actually seen. After that, the theory obviously breaks down a bit, but I still try to find matches based on what we know about those Heralds:

• Shalash - Re-Shephir: discussed above, I don't think this pairing is controversial at all
• Jezrien - Ashertmarn:No longer protecting and leading, Jezrien deals with his madness by excessive drinking. This matches up with Ashertmarn, the mindless Unmade who urges people to indulge to excess and abandon their lives and responsibilities
• Nale - Dai-Gonarthis: Nale's madness manifests as a near-total lack of emotion. It's almost like a void that has consumed all emotion, which I think matches up with what little we know of Dai-Gonarthis (The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!). Also we see conjecture that Dai-Gonarthis was involved in the scouring of Aimia. Given what we've learned about the dangerous secret hidden in Aimia, the scouring reminds me of Nale's mission to find and kill proto-Radiants.
• Ishar - Ba-Ado-Mishram: I feel like these two match up given they're both very knowledgeable about Connection, and they both used Connection to serve as leaders of their respective organizations. Ishar's madness does manifest in opposition to his attributes of pious and guiding, as Ishar now blasphemes by claiming to be god and misleads both humankind and the other Heralds rather than guiding them. BAM also arguably blasphemed by trying to play the role of Odium in the False Desolation. Turned out to be a rather misguided plan.
• Kalak - Yelig-Nar: This one I'm not totally certain about, but there are connections. There's the Amaram connection. Kalak (as Restares) led the Sons of Honor, an organization in which Amaram played a prominent role. There's the amethyst connection. That's the polestone associated with Kalak's order, and Amaram bonds Yelig-Nar by swallowing an amethyst, and then grows carapace and amethyst crystals from his body. Kalak's madness manifests as indecisiveness, which is opposed to his resolute attribute, but I don't know if I see a Yelig-Nar connection there. The other attribute is builder, and Yelig'Nar seems to consume/destroy his hosts which fits.
• Battar - Moelach: I really don't have much on the madness theory with this one, but there are other reasons to match these two. First there's Battar's involvement (as Dova) with recording the Death Rattles. Moelach was said to grant visions of the future most commonly at the transition point between realms, when a soul is approaching the Tranquiline Halls. Battar's order, the Elsecallers are those most skilled at navigating the transition between realms. Battar's attributes are wisdom and care. If I wanted to stretch I could say that Moelach, as one of the mindless Unmade fits with the opposite of wisdom. And the actions of the silent gatherers certainly cut against the attribute of care.
• Vedel - Nergaoul: Although we don't know whether we've seen Vedel on screen at this point (Liss?) Nergaoul, the Unmade that inflames emotions and provokes bloodlust, war, and violence, seems a pretty good opposite to Vedel's attributes of loving and healing
• Pailiah - Sja-Anat: Again, it's unclear if we've seen Pailiah on screen. (Brandon supposedly wrote in a signed book that she was the aged ardent in the Palanaeum in Way of Kings, but later seemed to back away from that). So I can't describe her madness except to say that I would expect it manifest as someone ignorant and selfish, the opposite of her attributes learned and giving. (Total side tangent crackpot theory: who exemplifies selfish ignorance more than Ialai? And the letters of her name are right there in Pailiah, but I digress, plus RIP) But again, I feel pretty good about this pairing given Sja'Anat's involvement with Pailiah's order, the Truthwatchers. Sja-Anat is the taker of secrets and the Truthwatchers are the most secretive order. Sja-Anat enlightens spren; Pailiah is learned. Sja-Anat can only be seen in reflected light and mistspren resemble the shimmer of light reflected through a crystal. Lots of connections.
• Chanarach - Chemoarish: just about the only thing we know about Chemoarish is that she's sometimes called the Dustmother, so matching with the patron of the Dustbringers just makes sense. Plus she's the only one left if you don't count Taln.

That just leaves out Taln, who didn't have a chance to attract an Unmade with his madness on Roshar because he was holding down the fort in Braize for 4500 years.

So there you have it. A somewhat different approach to trying to match up the Unmade with the Heralds. Interested in others' thoughts.

Edited March 25, 2021 by mdross81

[Bejarden]

Interesting theory although I didn’t completely understand your point about the Unmade being “drawn” to the Heralds madness

The Coppermind says this on Unmade:

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The origin of the Unmade is uncertain, but they are believed to have come into existence before the start of human civilization on Roshar.^[28]

So how would the Unmade be connected to the Heralds if they predate them?

also per WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6234 it is not a one to one ratio

Maybe I’m fundamentally misunderstanding your theory and you can correct me

[+mdross81]

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Interesting theory although I didn’t completely understand your point about the Unmade being “drawn” to the Heralds madness

The Coppermind says this on Unmade:

So how would the Unmade be connected to the Heralds if they predate them?

also per WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6234 it is not a one to one ratio

Maybe I’m fundamentally misunderstanding your theory and you can correct me

Given what Jezrien says about “letting them in” when I say the Unmade are drawn, I’m suggesting that exhibiting the madness/coping mechanisms the Heralds do brings the Unmade’s attention upon them (or others exhibiting similar behavior). That the Unmade are correlated to torment the particular Heralds with which they’re associated, but may also impact others who behave the same way too. 

[mathiau]

46 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

That just leaves out Taln, who didn't have a chance to attract an Unmade with his madness on Roshar because he was holding down the fort in Braize for 4500 years.

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

—Observed on Palaheses 1173, collected secondhand and later reported to the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a wealthy lighteyes.

If every Herald but one was linked to an Unmade the one the one who wasn't linked to one would be Ishar since he's madness seems a recent development, but don't discard the possibility of the ten being linked to an Unmade, after all the voidbinding chart has the Boundsmiths and the Truthwatchers closely linked

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Shalash is the clearest example of this. Vorinism associates her with the divine attributes of creativity and honesty. But she knows the Heralds were dishonest, and is driven to destroy depictions (copies) of her. Her madness is characterized by the opposites of her attributes: Creativity - Copying; Honesty - Lies. This matches up pretty neatly with Re-Shephir, who we see is drawn to Shallan's lies (her illusions) and spawns copies of the violence she sees.

Ashe destroy to be forgotten and Re-Shephir copy to understand, I don't see much link here

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Yes I know that there's no Unmade that corresponds with the Bondsmiths

We do? I know we know there's no fused version of the Bondsmith but honestely for the Unmade it seems equally likely that the one missing would be the one known by the Truthwatchers or the one known by the Windrunners (why are they purple Brandon? I want to know)

[+mdross81]

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I know we know there's no fused version of the Bondsmith but honestely for the Unmade it seems equally likely that the one missing would be the one known by the Truthwatchers or the one known by the Windrunners (why are they purple Brandon? I want to know)

I may have mixed up there being no Fused equivalent of Bondsmiths with there being no Unmade corresponding to Ishar. Thanks for pointing out. I’ll edit. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

We do? I know we know there's no fused version of the Bondsmith but honestely for the Unmade it seems equally likely that the one missing would be the one known by the Truthwatchers or the one known by the Windrunners (why are they purple Brandon? I want to know)

They're correct, there's no Unmade equivalent for the Bondsmiths (which raises the question of what in Damnation's up with Ba-Ado-Mishram, then).

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

6 hours ago, mdross81 said:

That just leaves out Taln, who didn't have a chance to attract an Unmade with his madness on Roshar because he was holding down the fort in Braize for 4500 years.

We know that the Unmade existed during the Desolations (at the very least, Yelig-nar is mentioned in the Nohadon vision, which seems to have been pretty early considering it's pre-Knights Radiant).

 

Side note, quote for thought (OB 77):

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“The book,” Shallan said, “claims there were nine Unmade. That matches the vision Dalinar saw, though other reports speak of ten Unmade. They’re likely ancient spren, primal, from the days before human society and civilization.”

I'm... not sure what to make of this.

[Could Be Fire]

 

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They're correct, there's no Unmade equivalent for the Bondsmiths (which raises the question of what in Damnation's up with Ba-Ado-Mishram, then)

Yeah...this is the weird part to me. There's a lot of conflicting info on voidbinding and whether Odium-aligned magic can grant access to all 10 surges or just 9. On one hand, it's clear that Adhesion is Honor's surge. No band of Fused has access to it, Raboniel's futzing with the Tower can't inhibit it, there's no Bondsmith (who's main focus is Adhesion) aligned Unmade. On the other hand, BAM really seems like she's related to Adhesion, Kriss says there are 10 levels of voidbinding and the voidbinding chart does have an inverted Adhesion glyph. 

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

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“The book,” Shallan said, “claims there were nine Unmade. That matches the vision Dalinar saw, though other reports speak of ten Unmade. They’re likely ancient spren, primal, from the days before human society and civilization.”

This could just an example of Vorin editing of texts. Like how many of the Heralds have been renamed to have symmetrical names (like Nalan from Nale) or how they drew voidbringers as chasmfiends. 10 is a super important number, so it might be assumed to be more correct by in-universe historians. Or I guess it could be longer-term foreshadowing for a secret 10th Unmade show up in a future Sanderslanch. 

With ROW and OB it seems like Unmade were created by Odium corrupting unique spren that already existed (like Cusicesh), uplifting them in way possibly similar to what Honor/Cultivation did the three Bondsmith Spren. 

[+mdross81]

4 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

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“The book,” Shallan said, “claims there were nine Unmade. That matches the vision Dalinar saw, though other reports speak of ten Unmade. They’re likely ancient spren, primal, from the days before human society and civilization.”

Yeah...this is the weird part to me. There's a lot of conflicting info on voidbinding and whether Odium-aligned magic can grant access to all 10 surges or just 9. On one hand, it's clear that Adhesion is Honor's surge. No band of Fused has access to it, Raboniel's futzing with the Tower can't inhibit it, there's no Bondsmith (who's main focus is Adhesion) aligned Unmade. On the other hand, BAM really seems like she's related to Adhesion, Kriss says there are 10 levels of voidbinding and the voidbinding chart does have an inverted Adhesion glyph. 

This could just an example of Vorin editing of texts. Like how many of the Heralds have been renamed to have symmetrical names (like Nalan from Nale) or how they drew voidbringers as chasmfiends. 10 is a super important number, so it might be assumed to be more correct by in-universe historians. Or I guess it could be longer-term foreshadowing for a secret 10th Unmade show up in a future Sanderslanch. 

With ROW and OB it seems like Unmade were created by Odium corrupting unique spren that already existed (like Cusicesh), uplifting them in way possibly similar to what Honor/Cultivation did the three Bondsmith Spren. 

Responding to this point, that was also raised by @LewsTherinTelescope.

I share the uncertainty about whether there are truly only 9 Unmade, but I guess I was just working with the 9 that we kinda know about. Something odd is definitely going on with the Voidbinding chart and the Ars Arcanum discussion of the levels of Voidbinding. I just don't have any clue what it is.

One thing I wanted to mention about the Voidbinding chart. I know it's been around a while and I can't say that I have followed all of the analysis of it over the years. But have people noticed that the Adhesion glyph in the Voidbinding chart is modified in a different way than the glyphs for all of the other Surges? For all of the others, the voidbinding glyph takes the left half of the surgebinding glyph and flips it top to bottom. With the Adhesion one, however, the left side is flipped top to bottom and then flipped left to right as well. Just wondering if this is something that's been discussed.

As for the reason I chose to omit Taln in matching the Heralds up, I did so because the particular view of Herald madness I'm discussing is the madness that has come from the nine Heralds who abandoned the Oathpact dealing with the fallout from that. In particular their mental state reacting against peoples' perception of them. While Taln undoubtedly has his own madness going on, I don't think he would suffer this particular form because he's spent 4500 years acting more or less consistently with Rosharans' perception of him.

I'm curious what others make of the line in Hessi's Mythica about the Unmade being "from the days before human society and civilization." Is this saying that the Unmade pre-date humans' arrival on Roshar? If that that's case, the Unmade would have to have been made/Unmade on Ashyn I guess? Somewhere else? Because Odium came to Roshar with the humans. I think it more likely that the line is referring to something more like modern human society and civilization. But I don't know when that would be. As has been pointed out, we've seen in a vision that Yelig-Nar killed all of Nohadon's scribes back before the Knights Radiant had even been founded.

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

One thing I wanted to mention about the Voidbinding chart. I know it's been around a while and I can't say that I have followed all of the analysis of it over the years. But have people noticed that the Adhesion glyph in the Voidbinding chart is modified in a different way than the glyphs for all of the other Surges? For all of the others, the voidbinding glyph takes the left half of the surgebinding glyph and flips it top to bottom. With the Adhesion one, however, the left side is flipped top to bottom and then flipped left to right as well. Just wondering if this is something that's been discussed.

I brought it up, there are other Voids that are off to but yes, i"ve mentioned it.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Yeah...this is the weird part to me. There's a lot of conflicting info on voidbinding and whether Odium-aligned magic can grant access to all 10 surges or just 9. On one hand, it's clear that Adhesion is Honor's surge. No band of Fused has access to it, Raboniel's futzing with the Tower can't inhibit it, there's no Bondsmith (who's main focus is Adhesion) aligned Unmade. On the other hand, BAM really seems like she's related to Adhesion, Kriss says there are 10 levels of voidbinding and the voidbinding chart does have an inverted Adhesion glyph. 

Eh, imo Odium can grant it just fine, he just doesn't want to risk granting the Fused power over Connection because they might be able to escape his control and take others with them. I think there's some truth to the "truest Surge" thing in that it aligns very neatly with Honor's Intent, but I don't think it's unique to him (for example, bonding the Nightwatcher, probably our most pure Cultivation spren, grants it), I think Odium just seized on that as an excuse. Lift's Progression also isn't blocked, and yet the Fused use that Surge fine.

5 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

This could just an example of Vorin editing of texts. Like how many of the Heralds have been renamed to have symmetrical names (like Nalan from Nale) or how they drew voidbringers as chasmfiends.

Very possible, yeah.

5 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Or I guess it could be longer-term foreshadowing for a secret 10th Unmade show up in a future Sanderslanch. 

I was thinking more along the lines of (if it's not just Vorinization, which is a big if) some powerful entity that's not quite an Unmade, but over time got conflated with them. No idea who this entity would be, though.

[apepi]

I have always assumed Odium's surges has like two of them kind of merged, like adhesion/gravitation being one thing instead of two. And the Singers thought "Oh silly humans". 

 

Something like that. 

[mathiau]

16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They're correct, there's no Unmade equivalent for the Bondsmiths

My mistake

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(which raises the question of what in Damnation's up with Ba-Ado-Mishram, then).

That she's the Windrunner equivalent. She's a highprincess among Odium forces like Jezrien was king of the Herald.

Remember, the commander of the KRs were not the Boundsmiths, these were their guides

14 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Yeah...this is the weird part to me. There's a lot of conflicting info on voidbinding and whether Odium-aligned magic can grant access to all 10 surges or just 9. On one hand, it's clear that Adhesion is Honor's surge. No band of Fused has access to it, Raboniel's futzing with the Tower can't inhibit it, there's no Bondsmith (who's main focus is Adhesion) aligned Unmade. On the other hand, BAM really seems like she's related to Adhesion, Kriss says there are 10 levels of voidbinding and the voidbinding chart does have an inverted Adhesion glyph. 

And Envoyform is obviously using a subpart of Adhesion

14 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

This could just an example of Vorin editing of texts. Like how many of the Heralds have been renamed to have symmetrical names (like Nalan from Nale) or how they drew voidbringers as chasmfiends. 10 is a super important number, so it might be assumed to be more correct by in-universe historians. Or I guess it could be longer-term foreshadowing for a secret 10th Unmade show up in a future Sanderslanch.

The Hierocracy has modified a lot of texts

9 hours ago, mdross81 said:

For all of the others, the voidbinding glyph takes the left half of the surgebinding glyph and flips it top to bottom.

For some (Gravitation for example) it's the right part that's flipped. Honestely I'd prefer taliking of the Voids being centrally symmetric cousins of the Surge than them being half-flipped versions

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With the Adhesion one, however, the left side is flipped top to bottom and then flipped left to right as well. Just wondering if this is something that's been discussed.

I'd prefer saying saying the point of symmetry is on the wrong side, but yes there's something weird there.

(in red the centre of symmetry of the Void, in blue the axis of symmetry of the Surge)

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With ROW and OB it seems like Unmade were created by Odium corrupting unique spren that already existed (like Cusicesh), uplifting them in way possibly similar to what Honor/Cultivation did the three Bondsmith Spren. 

Quote

I'm curious what others make of the line in Hessi's Mythica about the Unmade being "from the days before human society and civilization." Is this saying that the Unmade pre-date humans' arrival on Roshar? If that that's case, the Unmade would have to have been made/Unmade on Ashyn I guess? Somewhere else? Because Odium came to Roshar with the humans. I think it more likely that the line is referring to something more like modern human society and civilization. But I don't know when that would be. As has been pointed out, we've seen in a vision that Yelig-Nar killed all of Nohadon's scribes back before the Knights Radiant had even been founded.

I had the theory that Adonalsium didn't just create the Stormfather but also one Spren for each Essences and Odium would have managed to Unmade all of them but the sapphire one (Stormfather) and the emerald one (Nightwatcher), these would have survied because they were the closest to H and C and these considered them as their children. BaM would have either been directly made of Odium or be the Evil (because honestly, if you were Odium and had the occasion of corrupting a major part of your worse enemies, would you not do it?)

But if the one missing in the Unmade is the Boundsmtih one that theory works far less, Cultivation wouldn't have Unmade the heliodor one to get a daughter, would she? Maybe the heliodor one was Cusicesh and Cultivation made the Nightwatcher latter, but then why was Cusi never bounded?

Yeah, it doesn't really work

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Remember, the commander of the KRs were not the Boundsmiths, these were their guides

Windrunners were their scouts so I don't see what you mean here.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

45 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That she's the Windrunner equivalent. She's a highprincess among Odium forces like Jezrien was king of the Herald.

Still raises the question of things like making Light and her status as seemingly essential to Roshar, because these sound more like what you'd expect from a Bondsmith spren.

[mathiau]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windrunners were their scouts so I don't see what you mean here.

I was talking about the divine attributes, Windrunners have "Protecting and Leading" while Boundsmiths have "Pious and Guiding" so the current situation of having two Boundsmiths as king and queen of the Radiant is not the norm, if there was a king of the Radiants other than Jezrien (big if) then most of the time they'd be Windrunner or Elscaller, not Boundsmiths

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Still raises the question of things like making Light and her status as seemingly essential to Roshar, because these sound more like what you'd expect from a Bondsmith spren.

I've seen people theorising light creation was a part of Unchained Adhesion and not something unique to Boundsmiths, maybe it's that?

For the side effects of her capture, it's possible there'd be side-effect to binding any Unmade and the one for BaM are just more obvious than the ones for Nergaoul

[Frustration]

Just now, mathiau said:

I was talking about the divine attributes, Windrunners have "Protecting and Leading" while Boundsmiths have "Pious and Guiding" so the current situation of having two Boundsmiths as king and queen of the Radiant is not the norm, if there was a king of the Radiants other than Jezrien (big if) then most of the time they'd be Windrunner or Elscaller, not Boundsmiths

The only evidence to support that is the Divine attributes, and Jezrien, everything refering to Radiants has Bonsmiths as their leaders.

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only evidence to support that is the Divine attributes, and Jezrien,

So... my only evidence is everything the Knight Radiants strive to be?

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everything refering to Radiants has Bonsmiths as their leaders.

Do you have an example?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

So... my only evidence is everything the Knight Radiants strive to be?

Eh.... that's debatable, the only time Divine attributes are mentioned in text is by Kabsal refering to the Vorin Church, which is not a reliable source of historical information. And Heralds and Radiants are different in a number of ways.

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Do you have an example?

None of the spren think twice about being led by a Bondsmith,

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith

I will unite

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other Orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths.

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Bondsmiths are generally the heart and soul of the Radiants, the most protected and highly regarded of the Orders, capable of doing incredible things with the nature of oaths, bonds, and power. The Order, including the aforementioned squires and attendants, tends to attract the peacemakers of the world, those who want to bring people together rather than divide them.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

 

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27-19

topaz

"The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognize you are not so different as you think."  24-18 smokestone "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing."

If Windruners were in charge these records don't make sense

[+mdross81]

While I’ve got a post about the Unmade going, I’m planting down a flag that Chemoarish is the Unmade that was impacting the Davar family.

We don’t know exactly where the Davar estate was but it seems reasonable that it would be relatively close to Valath because that’s where Helaran was camped out when Lin sent assassins after him.

Valath is pretty close to Bavland. Bavland is notably dusty and they curse by the Dustmother, Chemoarish’s nickname. Chemoarish is the Dustmother, Chanarach is patron of the Dustbringers. One of Chana’s attributes is obedient. As Lin Davar grows angrier and angrier he always complains about how no one obeys, no one listens to him. Done. Sold. 
 

edit: forgot to mention the mining connection as further support for the Davar estate being near Bavland 

edit2: a big theme with Shallan has been sorting lies from truth and Hessi specifically mentions the difficulty of sorting lies from truth surrounding Chemoarish 

Quote

Chemoarish, the Dustmother, has some of the most varied lore surrounding her. The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by mdross81

[Infinity Sliver]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

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27-19

topaz

"The disagreements between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners have grown to tragic levels. I plead with any who hear this to recognize you are not so different as you think."  24-18 smokestone "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing."

 

If Windruners were in charge these records don't make sense

Tbh,I dont think this is because the Bondsmiths were leaders but that they knew something was inherently wrong because there was only 1 Bondsmith when there is normally 3.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Tbh,I dont think this is because the Bondsmiths were leaders but that they knew something was inherently wrong because there was only 1 Bondsmith when there is normally 3.

But what about the other one? If Windrunners were in charge why would the Skybreakers be fighting them?

[+Bzhydack]

IT is very old discussion, rises from Time to Time.

Found one topic about IT:

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/90819-heralds-were-missing-an-unmade/

[Infinity Sliver]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But what about the other one? If Windrunners were in charge why would the Skybreakers be fighting them?

no no,im not disagreeing with your initial point,im just saying the one i quoted doesnt seem to stem because bondsmiths were considered leadership