+Oltux72 Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 24 minutes ago, mathiau said: It doesn't. It explains why his eyes aren't red while using Progression but not why they aren't while using Illumination He is using his native system. He is bonded to a semi-Voidspren. Hence he can Voidbind without redness. To Glys that is not native. Hence red. 24 minutes ago, mathiau said: It also doesn't explains why Lift can use Lifelight and Sibling Boundsmith can use Towerlight without red eyes There is no evidence that the fuel actually matters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: He is using his native system. He is bonded to a semi-Voidspren. Hence he can Voidbind without redness. To Glys that is not native. Hence red. There is no evidence that the fuel actually matters. The definition of investiture corruption is using the wrong fuel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 2 hours ago, mathiau said: The definition of investiture corruption is using the wrong fuel Compounders don't have red eyes. And the definition of corruption is co-opting another shard's investiture, which I'm going to assume means switching it's Connections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Compounders don't have red eyes. And the definition of corruption is co-opting another shard's investiture, which I'm going to assume means switching it's Connections. Compounders use Preservation's power to fuel Harmony's magic system, that's not the same as using Odium's power to fuel Honour's magic system 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, mathiau said: Compounders use Preservation's power to fuel Harmony's magic system, that's not the same as using Odium's power to fuel Honour's magic system I don't see a difference. Especialy with Towerlight and Surgebinding. Edited March 20, 2022 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 42 minutes ago, mathiau said: Compounders use Preservation's power to fuel Harmony's magic system, that's not the same as using Odium's power to fuel Honour's magic system Yet neither does Vasher have red eyes, although he is using Stormlight to fuel his Divine Breath. But the Fused and Regals always have red eyes, even while they are not Surgebinding respectively using their regal powers. 1 hour ago, Frustration said: Compounders don't have red eyes. And the definition of corruption is co-opting another shard's investiture, which I'm going to assume means switching it's Connections. The more useful definition would aim at the source of the static Investiture that gives one access to the Invested art. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: The more useful definition would aim at the source of the static Investiture that gives one access to the Invested art. Well I'd assume that if you used whatever trick there is to turn Breath into Stormlight you would make corrupted investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: I don't see a difference. Especialy with Towerlight and Surgebinding. If we assume Surgebinding is an hybrid magic system between Cultivation and Honour then using life/tower/stormlight to fuel it is normal but voidlight is not 9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Yet neither does Vasher have red eyes, although he is using Stormlight to fuel his Divine Breath. He's actually using stormlight to slow down he's soul's decay, not to fuel any kind of magic system Quote But the Fused and Regals always have red eyes, even while they are not Surgebinding respectively using their regal powers. Ok, that I don't know why Quote The more useful definition would aim at the source of the static Investiture that gives one access to the Invested art. Then why did Spook not have red eyes when using pewter? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 27 minutes ago, mathiau said: If we assume Surgebinding is an hybrid magic system between Cultivation and Honour then using life/tower/stormlight to fuel it is normal but voidlight is not He's actually using stormlight to slow down he's soul's decay, not to fuel any kind of magic system Ok, that I don't know why Then why did Spook not have red eyes when using pewter? It's not always eyes, red smoke rises from soulstamps because it corrupts the soul. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted March 20, 2022 Report Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, mathiau said: He's actually using stormlight to slow down he's soul's decay, not to fuel any kind of magic system Well, if that were the only thing his Divine Breath is doing, he would be a rotting corpse. 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Then why did Spook not have red eyes when using pewter? Because he is using Preservation's static (and kinetic) Investiture. It did not originate in his own spirit web, but it is the real thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 Red eyes actually dont mean just any Corrupted Investiture. They are sign of Corrupted Innate Investiture. Sign of posession: - Thunderclasts have red eyes because they are unnatural posession of stone/crem. In spren form they are black. - Soldiers influenced by Thrill have red eyes. - Fused have red eyes - they posess not originally their bodies - The same with Trells Immortals - Regals have their bodies not-naturaly for them changed due to not fully natural bonding with Voidspren. - There are also Shades, but not sure about them. Maybe their rage (Hatred?) also is not their natural state, but they are influenced by power who Splintered Ambition. And hence they ARE their own Investiture, they are Corrupted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Frustration said: It's not always eyes, red smoke rises from soulstamps because it corrupts the soul. You're sure it's not just because it uses red ink? 2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said: - Regals have their bodies not-naturaly for them changed due to not fully natural bonding with Voidspren. That one doesn't hold, otherwise Venli wouldn't be able to swich her red eyes off 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, mathiau said: You're sure it's not just because it uses red ink? There's a WoB on it. Quote Roger As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is. Interestingly, they seem to know this is what it means in-world too: Quote The seal gave off faint wisps of red smoke; that happened only when living things were stamped. The soul fought against the rewriting. The seal didn't puff away immediately, though. Shai released a held breath. That was a good sign. 2 minutes ago, mathiau said: That one doesn't hold, otherwise Venli wouldn't be able to swich her red eyes off God I forgot she can do that... that is so confusing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.
+Bzhydack Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, mathiau said: That one doesn't hold, otherwise Venli wouldn't be able to swich her red eyes off She probably just overwrite them with her Radiant powers, afterall Radiants eyes changes as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said: There's a WoB on it. Interestingly, they seem to know this is what it means in-world too: Interesting Just to check, I didn't miss that Nightblood's corrupted Breaths were red, did I? 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Well, if that were the only thing his Divine Breath is doing, he would be a rotting corpse. That's not what I said. I said he wasn't feeding his Divine Breath with the stormlight but his soul (or whatever actually decays when you're a CS) Quote Because he is using Preservation's static (and kinetic) Investiture. It did not originate in his own spirit web, but it is the real thing. Yes the static Investiture used to be of Preservation, but it was transformed to Ruin's investiture when it was put in the spike 1 minute ago, Bzhydack said: She probably just overwrite them with her Radiant powers, afterall Radiants eyes changes as well. To my knowledge radiant's eyes only change when they draw their blade, reach oath 4 or breath stormlight Though she does mention she can't make her eyes red while breathing stormlight 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bzhydack Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 20 minutes ago, mathiau said: To my knowledge radiant's eyes only change when they draw their blade, reach oath 4 or breath stormlight Though she does mention she can't make her eyes red while breathing stormlight Human Radiants, yes. We dont know how Singers would behave, since they are closer to Cognitive Realm and more sensitive for Investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Shade Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 It seems to me that not all red is corrupted investiture and not all corrupted investiture is red (ex: Nightblood's black smoke is "corrupted breaths"). Granted, it is most of the time, but there have to be exceptions to prove the rule. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 5 hours ago, mathiau said: That's not what I said. I said he wasn't feeding his Divine Breath with the stormlight but his soul (or whatever actually decays when you're a CS) It takes a lot of Investiture to become a CS. The weaker ones also need a body. But to stay one, there is no evidence of a need to refuel for. The Fused survive running out of Voidlight just fine. They just lose their power. It seems that Vasher needs his Stormlight because technically he is a zombie. 5 hours ago, mathiau said: Yes the static Investiture used to be of Preservation, but it was transformed to Ruin's investiture when it was put in the spike Hemalurgy is end negative. It is powered by the soul of the sacrificed victim. Ruin created it. He does not power it. The Investiture inside the spike even retains its Identity. That is shown by the WoBs on the ability to use the metalminds of your victim. 5 hours ago, mathiau said: To my knowledge radiant's eyes only change when they draw their blade, reach oath 4 or breath stormlight After and due to, but not while or when. Kaladin's eyes stay light for hours after dismissing the Sylblade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 21, 2022 Report Share Posted March 21, 2022 22 hours ago, Bzhydack said: Human Radiants, yes. We dont know how Singers would behave, since they are closer to Cognitive Realm and more sensitive for Investiture. Fair point 21 hours ago, Wandering Shade said: It seems to me that not all red is corrupted investiture and not all corrupted investiture is red (ex: Nightblood's black smoke is "corrupted breaths"). Granted, it is most of the time, but there have to be exceptions to prove the rule. I also thinks Brandon just doesn't always mean the same thing when he says "corrupted". I think in Nightblood's case it's likely the breaths are corrupted in the sense their nature have been changed to Ruin's mist or are Ruin-Endowment hybrid 16 hours ago, Oltux72 said: It takes a lot of Investiture to become a CS. The weaker ones also need a body. I don't remember anything about weak CSs needing a body Quote But to stay one, there is no evidence of a need to refuel for. The Fused survive running out of Voidlight just fine. They just lose their power. It seems that Vasher needs his Stormlight because technically he is a zombie. Then how do you explain Jezrien's death? Quote Hemalurgy is end negative. It is powered by the soul of the sacrificed victim. Ruin created it. He does not power it. The Investiture inside the spike even retains its Identity. That is shown by the WoBs on the ability to use the metalminds of your victim. I don't see how any of that means the Investiture stored inside the the spike can't have been transformed into Ruin's investiture 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lego Mistborn Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, mathiau said: I also thinks Brandon just doesn't always mean the same thing when he says "corrupted". I think in Nightblood's case it's likely the breaths are corrupted in the sense their nature have been changed to Ruin's mist or are Ruin-Endowment hybrid Ruin's mist? I missed something, I thought Ruin and Preservation stayed together until Sazed took up the shards and became Harmony. I request an explanation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 14 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said: Ruin's mist? I missed something, I thought Ruin and Preservation stayed together until Sazed took up the shards and became Harmony. I request an explanation. There's a cavern right before the room with the Well of Ascension that's filled with black "smoke" that behaves like the mists and that swirls around Vin when she has her earring in. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lego Mistborn Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 56 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: There's a cavern right before the room with the Well of Ascension that's filled with black "smoke" that behaves like the mists and that swirls around Vin when she has her earring in. Ah, so there is no proven connection between Nightblood and Ruin, correct? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 22 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said: Ah, so there is no proven connection between Nightblood and Ruin, correct? There is Spoiler Walin Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted March 22, 2022 Report Share Posted March 22, 2022 16 hours ago, mathiau said: Fair point I also thinks Brandon just doesn't always mean the same thing when he says "corrupted". I think in Nightblood's case it's likely the breaths are corrupted in the sense their nature have been changed to Ruin's mist or are Ruin-Endowment hybrid I don't remember anything about weak CSs needing a body Then how do you explain Jezrien's death? I agree that the Nightblood black smoke is likely a different kind of "corruption" than the red eyes/red smoke messing with Spiritual aspects kind- I think the smoke is kind of like Nightblood's "waste product". As for Cognitive Shadows- well, Returned seem to die for-real when their bodies are killed, and Vasher/Zahel talks about this being because they're weaker Cognitive Shadows in RoW. but I think the strength difference is more how much they are tied to other Investiture/expanded soul/etc. Being a Sliver expands the soul to the point you can hang on in the Cognitive Realm indefinitely, no body needed. The Fused are Connected to Odium and use his Investiture to persist. Kelsier pre-holding Preservation was infused with the Well of Ascension's power. The Heralds are probably reverse-Fused, Connected to (remnants of) Honor, and when trapped in a gem Jezrien lost his Connection and faded away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NerdyAarakocra Posted May 18, 2022 Report Share Posted May 18, 2022 Nice theory! However, a small detail: Yelig-Nar grants access to all surges. However, the Fused maintain that Adhesion is a false surge, as it is not of both Honor and Cultivation, but just of Honor. Thus, a new fan theory emerges. Either Yelig-Nar cannot grant the Surge of Adhesion, or Yelig-Nar was able to grant Adhesion before turning into an Unmade. If the first, it's a cool technicality. If the second, that might indicate that there is more to the Unmade than we know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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