Voidbinding solved

[Frustration]

So I've seen a recent resurgance in Voidbinding intrest recently which lead me to read every WoB on it, go through every thread with that in the name, watch the shardcast and spend hours agonising over it.

But Frustration I hear you say, what makes this different from any of the other theories, well, to answer that, I believe I not only can give you a rough aproximation of what voidbinding is, but how it works, and even in some cases, what it does.

All spoiler tags are WoBs Voidbinging ususally comes from the Unmade

 

Spoiler

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

this was one of my two clues at what Voidbinding was, and so I began searching

The unmade and their effects we have seen are as follows

1. Neargual - The Thrill, emotional bliss and physical might.
2. Moeloch - Deathrattles, foresight
3.  Yelig-nar grants all ten surges
4. Re-shephir midnight mother- creates imitations of things
5. Ashertmarn - creates disire fro exsess.
6. Saj-anat - corrupts spren

What bugged me about this was why Yelig-nar gave surgebinding, 

We also have but have not seen

1. Ba-Ado-Mishram
2. Chemoarish
3. Dai-Gonarthis

One of the last two is responsible for Nan-Balat's life drain ability that he uses to make himself feel better in WoK I-2

 These charts will be helpful

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Surgebinding

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Voidbinding

my breakthrough came when I thought of how Odium describes the Shards of Roshar

Honor and Cultivation are natural forces, they don't care, Odium does however.

Surges are the fundemental forces of the Cosmere, so it stands to reason that Voids would be the fundementals of Life

This also explains why Yelig-nar gives surges, because natural law is needed for life.

Now the hard part came with separating the abilities of the unmade from the powers of Voidbinding, and I think I've done it

With this lens I broke apart everything we know about them and searched for signs of life.

For those who don't know something is considered alive if it can

1. React to changes in it's enviroment
2. Prosses energy
3. Evolve
4. Able to Reproduce
5. Grow and develope
6. Self regulate(temerature, ph etc)

Now on to the Voidbinding chart a few things of note, It has commonly been stated that the Voids are the surges with the left side flipped 180 degrees.

And While this is true of

Gravitation

Progression

Illumination

Transportation

and Cohesion

it is not true for all of them

Division could be counted as flipped with artistic lisence making it look better, but I'm unsure

The ones that don't fit are

Adhesion

Division(Maybe)

Abrasion

Transformation

and Tension

So I have(I think) eight of the ten Voids

1. Desire, the ability to manipulate the wants of others
2. Instinct ability to manipulate your own emotions 

Spoiler

MiToRo94 (paraphrased)

This is a question about both The Stormlight Archive and the Mistborn series. Does The Thrill have anything to do with zinc, Rioters, or Allomancy in general?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

"They work on very similar principles." Their magic is based on similar ideas, and they do have a lot in common. A specific example would be that, "they both can affect different people to different extents and in slightly different ways. You can see that in how the Thrill affects Dalinar, and how burning zinc affects kandra differently than others on Scadrial. That is because kandra have pierced souls, so Allomancy affects them differently."

Superstars Writing Seminar 2018 (Feb. 3, 2018)

 

        3. Learning, Note similarity to F-Zinc and copper. "Over time, slowly, she'd[Re-shephir] become increasingly intrigued by the things she had murdered." Oathbringer page 309

        4. Foresight, only one confirmed

        5. Memory, aids living things, note similarity to F-copper

        6.Enlightenment, corruption, transforming one kind of investiture into another kind, prossesing it.

"Did not the humans revere Transformation-the ability of all beings to become something new, someone better-as a core of their religion?" -Sja-Anat on Enlightening RoW page 287

        7.Evolving other things, similar principles to Hemalurgic construction.

        8. Life drain, hurting other things to heal oneself note similarity to Hemalurgy

 

Of course there are other things, we haven't seen three Unmade and there are other things unexplained, Time Dialation at Kholinar palace, the Queens guard's unusual stillness, but I think this works in a way.

Now on to the more mechanical ascpects of Voidbinding

One should note that the Two VoidOrders inside the gem are not connected to Voids, I think this is because of BAM in some way

I belive Voidbinding to be a End-Negative 

Spoiler

Herald (paraphrased)

Have we seen any of the system or the world that has end-negative magic system other than Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is one more end-negative magic system and you have seen minor hints of it.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

On page 671 of RoW it says that recording visions takes stormlight and effort from Glys, reminds me of Aethers tireing,

which makes me wonder if something like this questioner was

Spoiler

dvoraen

Does Ba-Ado-Mishram have similar traits to a Borg Queen? In other words, does she consume individuality itself?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

If, Voidbinding, like Dakor consumes the soul itself.

 

Anyway what do you think? I've spent so long on this I'm starting to lose my mind and probably missed something.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Ookla the Frustrated
Corrections and new evidence.

[+Bzhydack]

Its very posssible, even plausible, than Odiums magic is End-Negative. Hatred is basicly destrucrive, not constructive.

Need to note that indeed, known Unmade require sacrifice.

- Yelig-Nar consumes his host

- Moelach gives glimpses of future while person is dying

- Nergaoul gives passion to fight until death

- Ashertmarn gives passion to feast until death

- Re-Sephir simply murders people to study them

Only Sia-Anat doesnt kill anyone, but this is now, she changes spren, maybe earlier she simply hurt them more directly, so this is also some sacrifice.

Also Fused share similarities to hemalurgy.

Spiked poeple uses exactlythe same powers as born Allomancers and Feruchemists. But They are not using Allomancy/Feruchemy but Hemalurgy. And first they need kill someone with spike to gain powers. Similary Fused - they use normal surges, but to gain them (and physical body), they need sacrifice Singer.

So Fused ar Voidbinders not because they use some other Voidsurges, but because they are using Voidbinding to be back.

[Kyn]

7 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Only Sia-Anat doesnt kill anyone, but this is now, she changes spren, maybe earlier she simply hurt them more directly, so this is also some sacrifice.

I think your idea of the Unmade requiring sacrifice holds up even if Sja-anat always did something similar to how she enlightens spren now. Yes, it’s likely she treated/affected them more harshly in the past, considering what she did was termed corruption by those who encountered the changed creatures.

But creatures giving up their identity is a tremendous sacrifice, trading what they were for what Sja-anat can make them. Especially if they give up memories and/or come out not knowing what their new roles, abilities, or identities are.

It seems as if all the Unmade require/manipulate a sort of selfish self-abnegation on the part of targets, making them give up or lose themselves in exchange for what the Unmade has to offer/inflict. A sacrifice indeed.

[Lunu’anaki]

I don't have much to add... but this is a really good theory! This makes so much sense I'd be surprised if the broader theory you present here isn't true in some way. 

I think you are getting there with the 8 voids you've guessed at, but I'm not truly convinced by half of them. Learning, Foresight, and "Enlightenment" are the most convincing to me, though I think your mention of "Natural forces" as a void is intriguing as well.

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I don't have much to add... but this is a really good theory! This makes so much sense I'd be surprised if the broader theory you present here isn't true in some way. 

I think you are getting there with the 8 voids you've guessed at, but I'm not truly convinced by half of them. Learning, Foresight, and "Enlightenment" are the most convincing to me, though I think your mention of "Natural forces" as a void is intriguing as well.

Thanks man, I really appreciate it,

 

I found a ninth Void in my notes that I missed putting in so I'll add it now,

Senses, living things react to their enviroment, I think it is closer to Lifesense than A-Tin due to the Screamers in OB, but something in between is not off the Table.

[basement_boi]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:12 PM, Frustration said:

I found a ninth Void in my notes that I missed putting in so I'll add it now,

Senses, living things react to their enviroment, I think it is closer to Lifesense than A-Tin due to the Screamers in OB, but something in between is not off the Table.

It's actually more like Allomantic Bronze. The Screamers respond to kinetic Investiture.

[Frustration]

19 hours ago, basement_boi said:

It's actually more like Allomantic Bronze. The Screamers respond to kinetic Investiture.

Probably a better comparison.

[Honorless]

I don't think what Nan Balat was doing was a life drain. Seemed more like a magically enhanced psychological compulsion.

I both like the idea of Voidbinding being esoteric, costly magic and don't like the idea...

I rather look forward to the idea of inverse-Radiant Orders, y'know?

Edited January 25, 2021 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

On 21.1.2021 at 5:24 PM, Frustration said:

All spoiler tags are WoBs Voidbinging ususally comes from the Unmade

 

  Reveal hidden contents

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

1. Voidbinding coming from the Unmade does not mean that the Unmade are Voidbinders. In the other systems that is not the case. Spren themselves have the cutting effect, they are not Surgebinders.
2. The Sanderson is devious and his words often lead thee astray. The only Voidbinder we can be quite sure is a Voidbinder and whom we have seen voidbind is Renarin. And his ability does come from an Unmade, Sja-Anat, in origin, but it tells us nothing about Sja-Anat.

 

33 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I rather look forward to the idea of inverse-Radiant Orders, y'know?

The oaths are secondary. So even while the pairings may be natural a pure Voidbinder would be unlikely to be a member of an order.

And if there were full symmetry, we would need to ask - where are the Voidblades and the Voidplate?

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Voidbinding coming from the Unmade does not mean that the Unmade are Voidbinders. In the other systems that is not the case. Spren themselves have the cutting effect, they are not Surgebinders.

Honorspren can use small amounts of Adhesion, Criptics can make sound(Illumination) etc.

20 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1.  
2. The Sanderson is devious and his words often lead thee astray. The only Voidbinder we can be quite sure is a Voidbinder and whom we have seen voidbind is Renarin. And his ability does come from an Unmade, Sja-Anat, in origin, but it tells us nothing about Sja-Anat.

But it mirrors Moeloch with incredible accuracy.

[Honorless]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The oaths are secondary. So even while the pairings may be natural a pure Voidbinder would be unlikely to be a member of an order.

And if there were full symmetry, we would need to ask - where are the Voidblades and the Voidplate?

Hey, we haven't seen much of Voidspren yet. Their spren are more selfish, so if it's a costlier effect there, I'll be happy with it. But I definitely want there to be Oaths. And not ones that are Prime Total Utter Inarguable Evil™ material but just flawed perhaps or geared towards anger.

[+Oltux72]

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Honorspren can use small amounts of Adhesion,

So can animal spren. The problem using adhesion is that it is peculiar to Honor.

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Criptics can make sound(Illumination) etc.

All Spren can be seen and communicate. And flame spren can make heat in a fabrilal. We are not looking at Surgebinding specifically..

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But it mirrors Moeloch with incredible accuracy.

So does (Scadrial)

Spoiler

Atium and Electrum. That merely tells us that it is an invested art

 

36 minutes ago, Honorless said:

But I definitely want there to be Oaths.

Ishar imposed them on the Spren. He lacked the ability to do this to Voidspren. In fact, we have no strict confirmation that oaths work the same way for "enlightened" Spren.

[Frustration]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

So can animal spren. The problem using adhesion is that it is peculiar to Honor.

All Spren can be seen and communicate. And flame spren can make heat in a fabrilal. We are not looking at Surgebinding specifically..

Fair enough

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

So does (Scadrial)

  Reveal hidden contents

Atium and Electrum. That merely tells us that it is an invested art

 

And?

Aviar and Allomancy are almost identicle.

[mathiau]

Quote

Voidbinging ususally comes from the Unmade

Usually being an important word

Quote

1. Neargual - The Thrill, emotional bliss and physical might.
2. Moeloch - Deathrattles, foresight
3.  Yelig-nar grants all ten surges
4. Re-shephir midnight mother- creates imitations of things
5. Ashertmarn - creates disire fro exsess.
6. Saj-anat - corrupts spren

Wait, Neragoul cause emotional bliss? Seemed more like emotional chaos to me. Also Arshertmarn can also create illusion and more importantly the Diagram state all unmade can give some level of foresight, Moelach being the best at this.

And Sja enlighten, she doesn't corrupt.

Quote

my breakthrough came when I thought of how Odium describes the Shards of Roshar

Honor and Cultivation are natural forces, they don't care, Odium does however.

Surges are the fundemental forces of the Cosmere, so it stands to reason that Voids would be the fundementals of Life

Except he was wrong, Honour and Cultivation cares.

Quote

For those who don't know something is considered alive if it can

1. React to changes in it's enviroment
2. Prosses energy
3. Evolve
4. Able to Reproduce
5. Grow and develope
6. Self regulate(temerature, ph etc)six and four, remember that

Except we're talking about humans, we also need other things, connexion to others for exemple.

Also you're talking about 6 and 4 but you had only shown the 6

Quote

Now on to the Voidbinding chart a few things of note, It has commonly bee stated that the Voids are the surges with the left side flipped 180 degrees.

I don't know who said that but they obviously didn't watch the chart for long enough. Voids are Honour's surges but centrally symetric instead of vertically symetric, it's not always the left side that's flipped, for Adhesion the central symetry was done on the oposite side compared to the one the vertical symetry was done, for Division, Progression and Tension the center of symetry is inside the rightmost of leftmost bar and you need a bit more defformation for Gravitation, Abrasion and even more for Transformation.

So I'm finding a 3-3-3-1 motif, you could argue that I'm separating a bit too much and it's actually a 7-3 or a 6-3-1 motif with the three being Gravitation, Abrasion and Transformation and the one being Adhesion.

Also, about Adhesion being weird, I guess the Voids are the basis of lifes then we're assuming they only works for living things? The wierd flip could mean they only have Void sipritual Adhesion and not Void physical Adhesion? It'd mean corrupted windsprens cannot control wind which would be weird.

Quote

Five and Five, intresting

Did you mean six and four? If not I'm having trouble following you.

Quote

    4. Foresight, only one confirmed

Welllllll, actually it's probably either a side effect more than Void or restricted to V-Truthwachers or V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths. My argument for the first is that we've seen Renarin's power have malatium effects twice, when he used illumination on Moash at the begining of RoW but also when he healed Adolin's wrist at the begining of Oathbringer (the same scene he's shown to have made a blade) and I think we can agree there's no reason he'd be accidently using Illumination at that moment. Of course there's still the possiblity that future sight is an effect of Progression and his Malatium-light effect on Moash was actually a fusion V-Illumination and V-Progression

My argument for Foresight being locked to certain orders comes for the chart, every orders except V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths are linked to their surges with purple lines, these two are on a a rubis linked to surges by lightnings; this implies their voids works differently than with the other orders, like what happen with H-Boundsmiths. Also that chart kind of makes me think to an eyes of which the ruby would be the iris.

Quote

If, Voidbinding, like Dakor consumes the soul itself.

Dakor is end-positive, did you mean Hemalurgy?

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And if there were full symmetry, we would need to ask - where are the Voidblades and the Voidplate?

In Renarin's hand.

[Honorless]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Ishar imposed them on the Spren. He lacked the ability to do this to Voidspren. In fact, we have no strict confirmation that oaths work the same way for "enlightened" Spren.

This seems to have been contradicted by a fair few WoBs like:

Quote

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Usually being an important word

Wait, Neragoul cause emotional bliss? Seemed more like emotional chaos to me. Also Arshertmarn can also create illusion and more importantly the Diagram state all unmade can give some level of foresight, Moelach being the best at this.

Dalinar discribes it as life itself, seems blissful to me

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Except he was wrong, Honour and Cultivation cares.

And yet the Surges are all natural forces, and besides, while Rayse lies with some regularity he has yet(to my knowledge) been 100% untruthful

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also you're talking about 6 and 4 but you had only shown the 6

So I'm finding a 3-3-3-1 motif, you could argue that I'm separating a bit too much and it's actually a 7-3 or a 6-3-1 motif with the three being Gravitation, Abrasion and Transformation and the one being Adhesion.

Did you mean six and four? If not I'm having trouble following you.

I wrote that post three time and sometimes I didn't completly get everything changed

20 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't know who said that but they obviously didn't watch the chart for long enough. Voids are Honour's surges but centrally symetric instead of vertically symetric, it's not always the left side that's flipped, for Adhesion the central symetry was done on the oposite side compared to the one the vertical symetry was done, for Division, Progression and Tension the center of symetry is inside the rightmost of leftmost bar and you need a bit more defformation for Gravitation, Abrasion and even more for Transformation.

It was in the coppermind and on at least one but maybe two of the threads I looked at.

21 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Welllllll, actually it's probably either a side effect more than Void or restricted to V-Truthwachers or V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths. My argument for the first is that we've seen Renarin's power have malatium effects twice, when he used illumination on Moash at the begining of RoW but also when he healed Adolin's wrist at the begining of Oathbringer (the same scene he's shown to have made a blade) and I think we can agree there's no reason he'd be accidently using Illumination at that moment. Of course there's still the possiblity that future sight is an effect of Progression and his Malatium-light effect on Moash was actually a fusion V-Illumination and V-Progression

My argument for Foresight being locked to certain orders comes for the chart, every orders except V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths are linked to their surges with purple lines, these two are on a a rubis linked to surges by lightnings; this implies their voids works differently than with the other orders, like what happen with H-Boundsmiths. Also that chart kind of makes me think to an eyes of which the ruby would be the iris.

Yes but Renarin is not a pure Voidbinder, he'd be closer to Twinborn so weirdness for him is to be exspected

25 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Dakor is end-positive, did you mean Hemalurgy?

It is ver much end negative, Dilaf required the souls of fifty of his bretheren to gain the ability to break Aons, teleporting requires the consumtion of a Dakor's soul, it is very much end negative.

[Leuthie]

36 minutes ago, Honorless said:

This seems to have been contradicted by a fair few WoBs like:

 

Ishar didn't define the Oaths, but he did impose their requirement upon the process. The process is a creation of Ishar (requiring the 5 Ideals/Oaths to get more power), the Oaths themselves are determined by the spren (and accepted by Shards, Stormfather stepping in for Honor).

[mathiau]

45 minutes ago, Honorless said:

This seems to have been contradicted by a fair few WoBs like:

This is not a straight contradiction, Enlighted sprens have been artificially modified so they're no longer a natural out growth of human perception. Brandon said before radiants started swearing oaths they had access to a weaker form of Nahel bound so I assume Voidbinders will have some equivalent to the Oaths but in a more Odium way; Glys once asked Renarin to take his pain so it might be that.

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar discribes it as life itself, seems blissful to me

Seems not very bissful to me. I was probably wrong about chaotic though.

Quote

And yet the Surges are all natural forces, and besides, while Rayse lies with some regularity he has yet(to my knowledge) been 100% untruthful

I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying he's wrong.

How would you cultivate something if you can't keep it alive?

Quote

Yes but Renarin is not a pure Voidbinder, he'd be closer to Twinborn so weirdness for him is to be exspected

Why do you say that? I'd understand if you said Rlain was some kind of Twinborn and not a Warbinder but Renarin's spren is clearly different than Rlain's, Tumi apear as a blue cristal soldier while Glys apear as a floting red crystal.

Quote

It is ver much end negative, Dilaf required the souls of fifty of his bretheren to gain the ability to break Aons, teleporting requires the consumtion of a Dakor's soul, it is very much end negative.

It's not. And we know it consumes lives, do we know it also consumes souls?

Quote

Questioner

So in Scadrial we know that Allomancy is end-positive, and Hemalurgy end-negative, and Feruchemy is neutral, right? Is there such a concept on Sel, with the magics?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the magics on Sel, every one of them, is end-positive.

Questioner

Okay. And what fuel-- well, it's not a fuel. What focuses it? It's-- no, not that too.

Brandon Sanderson

They all draw power from the Dor. None of it's coming from the people. That's what this refers to, right?

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Edited January 25, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

How would you cultivate something if you can't keep it alive?

Old magic is like that, and intrestingly is considered the Cousin to Voidbinding.

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Why do you say that? I'd understand if you said Rlain was some kind of Twinborn and not a Warbinder but Renarin's spren is clearly different than Rlain's, Tumi apear as a blue cristal soldier while Glys apear as a floting red crystal.

Because Renarin has the Surge of Progression, not the Void that would have it's place.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's not. And we know it consumes lives, do we know it also consumes souls?

I'm aware of the WoB, but as has been brought up in Shardcast multiple times  recently(even by Brandon himself) they aren't 100% correct.

And Hrathen seemed to think it consumed the soul, and life doesn't really contain investiture, souls do though.

[+Oltux72]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm aware of the WoB, but as has been brought up in Shardcast multiple times  recently(even by Brandon himself) they aren't 100% correct.

And Hrathen seemed to think it consumed the soul, and life doesn't really contain investiture, souls do though.

But it does not consume the user. The point of using an external fuel is to consume it. Whether you consume Stormlight that does not come from yourself or somebody else's soul for power or use a human sacrifice as a key to channel the Dor does really not make a difference. End-positive is not meant in an ethical sense.

Hemalurgy is end-negative because it decays. The only obvious analogy would be Shades. They spontaneously decay..

[Honorless]

20 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Ishar didn't define the Oaths, but he did impose their requirement upon the process. The process is a creation of Ishar (requiring the 5 Ideals/Oaths to get more power), the Oaths themselves are determined by the spren (and accepted by Shards, Stormfather stepping in for Honor).

 

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Brandon said before radiants started swearing oaths they had access to a weaker form of Nahel bound

Can you link the WoBs/relevant passages from the books? 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

But it does not consume the user. The point of using an external fuel is to consume it. Whether you consume Stormlight that does not come from yourself or somebody else's soul for power or use a human sacrifice as a key to channel the Dor does really not make a difference. End-positive is not meant in an ethical sense.

Hemalurgy is end-negative because it decays. The only obvious analogy would be Shades. They spontaneously decay..

It seems to require some willingness from the sacrifice, so I'd count it.

Ultimatly these definitions are human classifications that don't really 100% fit, I think we can make a solid argument for either case.

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Because Renarin has the Surge of Progression, not the Void that would have it's place.

Progression is two different powers Growth and Regrowth and Renarin only managed to use one of them, and as I said he's using it differently than Lift.

Quote

I'm aware of the WoB, but as has been brought up in Shardcast multiple times  recently(even by Brandon himself) they aren't 100% correct.

Yeah that's a fair point

Quote

And Hrathen seemed to think it consumed the soul, and life doesn't really contain investiture, souls do though.

Vivenna thought the same of Awakening

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Can you link the WoBs/relevant passages from the books? 

Yes

Quote

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Progression is two different powers Growth and Regrowth and Renarin only managed to use one of them, and as I said he's using it differently than Lift.Yes

Not sure how much use Growth has for them, or if they know about it, otherwise they would use it for Food. But that is intresting, I'll look into it if I have time.

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Vivenna thought the same of Awakening

Well, she wasn't wrong.

[mathiau]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not sure how much use Growth has for them, or if they know about it, otherwise they would use it for Food. But that is intresting, I'll look into it if I have time.

Lift knows about Growth, I'm pretty sure she was using it before she tried using regrowth and she once asked Windle whether eating plants she grow would give her more or less light than it uses, his answer was "normally yes but with you everything is weird". She probably don't know all about Growth since she never tried to make herself more buff like the Altered Ones.

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, she wasn't wrong.

She was. Breaths a gaseous investiture not souls.