Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Firstly, how do you know that? Secondly, what does that have to do with Steelrunner vs Radiant?

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm just curious about Steelrunners. I have to ask, assuming they have physical limitations?

Brandon Sanderson

They do. We can't go Speed Force on this sort of thing. Wind resistance is still a thing, and stuff like that.

Questioner

Bodily, their bodies--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So, most magic in the cosmere will strengthen your body to let you use the magic to an extent, but-- Yeah, there's some pretty strong limitations.

Questioner

If you had a steel/steel Twinborn racing a pewter/steel, would you say that the pure steel, or the pewter burning to enhance their body-- in a short race?

Brandon Sanderson

Who would win? Probably pewter then, at that point. I would have to have Peter-- I wouldn't do it myself, make Peter run the math, and see what he comes up with. Those are the sort of things I go to him with.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Second off steelrunners aren't breaking the sound barrier, they are good, but not unbeatable, especially when all you have to do is jump to throw the ground out from under them.

[therunner]

33 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Again, it's not like a Radiant of any order would put up much of a fight to a rusting Steelrunner.

Since steelrunners are limited by air friction and per WoB would lose on short distances to A-pewter/f-steel, they would not be that much of a problem. Not to mention they have not tool to go through plate (although you could give them ordinary guns).

[Enter a username]

11 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

not necessarily, i think. The Fourth Bridge is pulled along horizontally, so it might actually be faster to reset it than to use up the next gem.

First, I don't see how the Fourth Bridge's direction matters, and second, all of those weights would have to be pulled up by either hand or chull, which isn't particularly speedy, unless there's a highstorm going on wherever the windmill Navani was planning is, which isn't particularly likely. (And that's assuming the weights can even drop during a highstorm.)

11 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

and besides, that airship has only one conjoined load that reverses itself instead of ever resetting.

I'm not completely sure what you're saying here.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Second off steelrunners aren't breaking the sound barrier, they are good, but not unbeatable, especially when all you have to do is jump to throw the ground out from under them.

First, they might not be unbeatable, but they have a really good chance. Second, I'm not completely sure what you mean by "jump to throw the ground out from under them." Third, they're not fighting a steel Compounder or Steelrunner/Pewterarm Twinborn, they're fighting a Windrunner or Skybreaker, someone who's much, much slower.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Since steelrunners are limited by air friction and per WoB would lose on short distances to A-pewter/f-steel, they would not be that much of a problem. Not to mention they have not tool to go through plate (although you could give them ordinary guns).

Yes, they'll probably have guns. All of Scadrial includes all of Scadrial's tools and weapons. (And it also means they won't be fighting a Twinborn.)

And I only said Steelrunner, not steel Compounder.

[therunner]

3 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

First, they might not be unbeatable, but they have a really good chance. Second, I'm not completely sure what you mean by "jump to throw the ground out from under them." Third, they're not fighting a steel Compounder or Steelrunner/Pewterarm Twinborn, they're fighting a Windrunner or Skybreaker, someone who's much, much slower.

How do they have a chance? Outside of guns they have no way to breach plate, much less kill Radiant. To break one section of plate would require 2-3 bullets (most likely in relatively quick succession). If the Radiant was Windrunner they could simply carry shield imbued with reverse lashing to make all their shots miss target, Skybreaker would just need to touch ship to damage it with division.

[Enter a username]

Just now, therunner said:

How do they have a chance? Outside of guns they have no way to breach plate, much less kill Radiant. To break one section of plate would require 2-3 bullets (most likely in relatively quick succession). If the Radiant was Windrunner they could simply carry shield imbued with reverse lashing to make all their shots miss target, Skybreaker would just need to touch ship to damage it with division.

Remember that a Steelrunner directly involved in this would have quite a reserve. They could just move to the Windrunner's back and use the Reverse Lashing to deliver even more force to the Plate (or just use aluminum bullets to completely bypass the Lashing), and with a Skybreaker they could simply shoot the plate. Killing the Radiant would be no problem at all because aluminum blocks Invested healing, and Scadrial easily has enough aluminum to outfit everyone on the crew with daggers, bullets, and so forth.

[Zapata]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

First, I don't see how the Fourth Bridge's direction matters, and second, all of those weights would have to be pulled up by either hand or chull, which isn't particularly speedy, unless there's a highstorm going on wherever the windmill Navani was planning is, which isn't particularly likely. (And that's assuming the weights can even drop during a highstorm.)

I'm not completely sure what you're saying here.

the conjoined fabrial that controls the horizontal movement of the Fourth Bridge is not moved up and down, but horizontally dragged back and forth across the ground by chulls. This means that they never have to reset the paired gem, but instead reverse it. The vertical fabrial is seperate, and pulled up and down by humans. 

[Enter a username]

Just now, Bearer of Agonies said:

the conjoined fabrial that controls the horizontal movement of the Fourth Bridge is not moved up and down, but horizontally dragged back and forth across the ground by chulls. This means that they never have to reset the paired gem, but instead reverse it. The vertical fabrial is seperate, and pulled up and down by humans. 

I would assume that they'd replace the horizontal pairing with the type found in the personal lift fabrial Navani gave Kaladin.

[Zapata]

Just now, Enter a username said:

I would assume that they'd replace the horizontal pairing with the type found in the personal lift fabrial Navani gave Kaladin.

Why? the personal lift had to be reset, but the horizontal chulls could move practically indefinitely, as long as there are fresh chulls to switch out.

[Frustration]

20 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

First, they might not be unbeatable, but they have a really good chance. Second, I'm not completely sure what you mean by "jump to throw the ground out from under them." Third, they're not fighting a steel Compounder or Steelrunner/Pewterarm Twinborn, they're fighting a Windrunner or Skybreaker, someone who's much, much slower.

A normal human's weight was enough to almost drop the lifeboat, what happens when someone wearing Shardplate which if SA uses real world stones instead of it's own measurements, is 1,400 pounds, jumps on it?

[Enter a username]

3 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Why? the personal lift had to be reset, but the horizontal chulls could move practically indefinitely, as long as there are fresh chulls to switch out.

Because the personal lift moves fast enough to shock the user considerably. Compare that to chulls, which are reportedly slower than walking.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A normal human's weight was enough to almost drop the lifeboat, what happens when someone wearing Shardplate which if SA uses real world stones instead of it's own measurements, is 1,400 pounds, jumps on it?

Why in Harmony's True Name would Scadrial send a fleet of lifeboats? This would be happening on the actual airship, where the Radiant couldn't just send the whole thing down by jumping.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Why in Harmony's True Name would Scadrial send a fleet of lifeboats? This would be happening on the actual airship, where the Radiant couldn't just send the whole thing down by jumping.

The Airship would have to be at least 14 time larger before it had the same effect, istead of immeadiatly breaking it, and that is without any downwards lashings added by the Radiant, my point it that they aren't designed to handle that kind of weight.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Frustration

[Zapata]

Just now, Enter a username said:

Because the personal lift moves fast enough to shock the user considerably. Compare that to chulls, which are reportedly slower than walking.

The personal lift also has to deal with only the weight of one person. It would be a stretch currently to strengthen that enough to support the weight of the airship. Besides, the Raysium could be used for force multiplication now, so the chull power could move the boat much faster.

[Enter a username]

Just now, Frustration said:

The Airship would have to be at least 14 time larger to accomidate for that, and that is without any downwards lashings added by the Radiant, my point it that they aren't designed to handle that kind of weight.

Going back and checking...

Quote from Bands of Mourning, chapter 17

       It was a boat.

       Of course, the common word "boat" didn't do the thing justice. Wayne stared at the massive contraption, searching for a better description. One that would capture the majesty, the incredible scale, of what he was seeing.

       "That's a [dang] big boat," he finally whispered.

       Much better.

Yeah, fourteen times sounds realistic.

5 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

The personal lift also has to deal with only the weight of one person. It would be a stretch currently to strengthen that enough to support the weight of the airship. Besides, the Raysium could be used for force multiplication now, so the chull power could move the boat much faster.

I guess you do have a point there. But chull power, even multiplied, would make it much easier to hit with a cannon or a toned-down ettmetal bomb. (Remember, the full-sized ones are powerful enough to destroy Scadrian cities. Imagine what they'd do to a Rosharan city.)

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

Going back and checking...

Yeah, fourteen times sounds realistic.

great, now they can fall at the same speed, even if it somehow kept in the air, a single downwards lashing, just on the Radiant would necessitate making it twice as big.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Frustration

[Zapata]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

I guess you do have a point there. But chull power, even multiplied, would make it much easier to hit with a cannon or a toned-down ettmetal bomb. (Remember, the full-sized ones are powerful enough to destroy Scadrian cities. Imagine what they'd do to a Rosharan city.)

to be fair, I feel like Roshar could be on the path to anti-light bombs. and like @Frustration said, the Scadrian ships have the major weakness of having to be near-weightless in order to fly. In a fight on the decks of airships, Surgebinders would not be courteous enough to Lash themselves weightless while fighting on a Scadrian ship

[Enter a username]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

great, now they can fall at the same speed, even if it somehow kept in the air, a single downwards lashing, just on the Radiant would necessitate making it twice as big.

I don't understand this.

7 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

to be fair, I feel like Roshar could be on the path to anti-light bombs. and like @Frustration said, the Scadrian ships have the major weakness of having to be near-weightless in order to fly. In a fight on the decks of airships, Surgebinders would not be courteous enough to Lash themselves weightless while fighting on a Scadrian ship

The Radiant wouldn't be on deck for very long: The Steelrunner can tap large amounts of steel and discharge 2-3 aluminum kolossblood/Pewterarm bullets into the Radiant's chest (more to break the Plate, if there is any). This should kill the Radiant. If not, stab them with an aluminum dagger. They'd then get a few Pewterarms/Brutes/Pewter Compounders to throw the now dead Radiant off the ship, or just do it themselves if there's no Plate.

[Zapata]

2 minutes ago, Enter a username said:

I don't understand this.

The Radiant wouldn't be on deck for very long: The Steelrunner can tap large amounts of steel and discharge 2-3 aluminum kolossblood/Pewterarm bullets into the Radiant's chest (more to break the Plate, if there is any). This should kill the Radiant. If not, stab them with an aluminum dagger. They'd then get a few Pewterarms/Brutes/Pewter Compounders to throw the now dead Radiant off the ship, or just do it themselves if there's no Plate.

assuming that works, the Scadrian ship would still lose mobility and start falling each time it happens. during this time they are vulnerable to further attacks. Besides, the Radiants could also load boulders or other weights onto their own ships and just drop those onto the Scadrian ships. Ad something i realized is the Scadrians are disadvantaged in this area, since they could not form their own boarding parties as easily. they'd have to launch Crashers, because a normal Coinshot would push the weightless ship too much. And steel Allomancers moving between two moving objects could easily miss and fall away from the fight. They can also send Lurchers (who couldn't miss), but that depends on where metal can be found on a Rosharan ship. Plus, a Scadrian boarding party would not be as immediately effective as a Rosharan one, since the mere presence of a Rosharan on a Scadrian ship would destabilize it.

[BenduLuke]

On 3/23/2021 at 4:52 PM, Frustration said:

It's far easier to get fourth oath Radiants than most of your suggestions.

We know that at least someone at Dragonsteel beleives that they have a non-invested ability to cut.

The Stormfather also says that seeing the lines shouldn't be possible, and that bringing spren into the PR like Ishar was doing, should be impossible

prevent it.

Even if we give Kelsier Preservation, he won't win a two vs one,

and that's without bringing Preservation into it, or trying to unsplinter Honor.

Because muscle mass increases with Feruchemy, even if bone size increased with it, square cube law would prevent them from ever getting to that level of strength

it's always there, that's what it says

Maybe once 4th oath might have been common, though according to the books most didn't reach that point, but at this time they are most definitely not.

Sure but not necessarily better than a regular metal sword and we don't know how hard or sharp the God metal would be.

All it took was a shardblade to disrupt connection manipulation. For all we know a coppercloud could cause disruption.

Kel serves Ruin more than preservation.

It is pewter allomantic strength not pewter feruchemical strength being feruchemically tapped.

It is always there but not always active.

On 3/23/2021 at 5:02 PM, The Technovore said:

It's both a magical invested ability and a material ability. The material is godmetal, and as such has these properties as part of its heavily invested nature. Brandon has stated (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023) that leecher's can damage shardblades if they really worked at it, but that doesn't mean that they can nullify its powers. If a leecher touched a bead of Atium, could they remove it's magic properties? Probably not, but they could destroy it with time. A leecher could totally nullify a fabrial that requires stormlight to run, but godmetal is different. You're right though that if a leecher got ahold of a Radiant before they summoned the blade, the Radiant would be in trouble. Someone posted an idea of a leecher grabbing onto an unsuspecting Radiant and activating their chromium while stabbing--that would work easily on 3rd Oath Radiants, but if the Leecher broke contact and the Radiant summoned the blade, it's all over.

Finally, like @Frustration said, 4th oath Radiants are not as rare as Mistborn are. We see in the vision of Recreance that there were dozens of Radiants with sprenplate, and while 3rd oath Radiants outnumber them well, the great majority of experienced Radiants are 4th and 3rd oath. 2nd Oath is not the average, 3rd Oath is. If you want "rare as Mistborn", look at 5th Oath Radiants (which we don't yet know what boon that gives, but I'd reckon it's a big one.) So sure, not every Radiant is going to have the "I win" defense of sprenplate, but the "I win" offense of a sprenblade is basically standard.

Shardblades are essentially sharpened mist. They cut because they are invested. With the investiture drained at best they are ordinary metal swords, but because of their connection to the person they would potentially make great bridge to that persons investiture.

Your right mistborn are unknown in the population of 2nd era but we only have 2 maybe 3 4th oath by the end of ROW so for now both are extremes.

On 3/23/2021 at 7:18 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

 

@BenduLuke

Iron burns at about 1500°C. There is no way any human body can even reach such a temperature without every fluid in their body explosively combusting. Chemical burning and Allomantic burning are not the same, not by a long shot.

Yeah it probably takes that kind of energy to unlock the Iron allomancy key for Iron pulls so most of that energy goes into that not into boiling the body.

On 3/24/2021 at 0:28 PM, Enter a username said:

I'm siding with the Mistborn for a number of reasons:

1. Bendalloy. While the Radiant simply can't make any real plans, the Mistborn can pause time whenever they want and carefully formulate a plan.
2. Pewter, though this one is more psychological. While I fully agree that the Radiant would be just as strong, if not stronger, they'd be used to a huge advantage over an opponent. Pewter would level the playing field at least somewhat, and the Radiant would have to adapt. Mistborn on the other hand, fight other Mistborn and Misting kill squads on a semi-regular basis. They know how to fight someone who matches their strength and agility.
3. Nicrosil. People have said that chromium would take a few seconds to wipe a Radiant's Stormlight reserves, but what about the opposite route? A massive burst of Stormlight followed by none at all will shock the Radiant much more than their Stormlight quickly being drained.
4. Electrum. I have seen this mentioned, I haven't seen it really discussed the way iron or pewter have. Being able to see what plans end in failure before completing them is a huge asset. (Clarification: I know that electrum only works a few seconds into the future. What I mean by this is being able to cancel an attack knowing that carrying through would have killed you.)
5. Steel. Pushing coins into the Radant's plate might not crack it, but it will chip away at their Stormlight. In addition, it allows for a range of mobility only outclassed by Windrunners and Skybreakers- and even then, the Radiant has to engage eventually. And concerning the Stoneward scenario mentioned earlier, the Mistborn could put their anchor on the ground the Stoneward is standing on. 
6. A Mistborn's fuel will last much longer than a Radiant's. Metals burn much slower than Stormlight leaves, and can be turned on and off at will. Comparing sixteen gemstones to sixteen metal vials, the Radiant would have to use a gemstone... maybe every minute or two. The Mistborn would only have to use a metal vial several minutes after the last one. Then there's the problem of Stormlight leaking faster when the Radiant is holding more, and being consumed whenever the Radiant experiences any bodily damage, no matter how minor, or whenever the plate cracks at all. Metal vials will last longer than Stormlight, unless the Mistborn acts like an idiot and wastes all the combat-useful metals in each one on duralumin the first chance they get. The Mistborn just has to outlast the Radiant, because the Radiant will run out of Stormlight and that will rob them of a major advantage.
7. Planning. As mentioned above, bendalloy allows the Mistborn time to carefully formulate plans mid-battle.The only plans a Radiant can use are those they brought in from before the battle started, which can quickly fall apart.
8. Ranged attacks. The only ranged attacks a Radiant can use require a somewhat significant use of Stormlight. A Mistborn's ability to Steelpush coins is comparatively much cheaper.

And I'm not even considering atium, because that usually lasts a minute or two, which is more than enough time with all the advantages I just mentioned. Even with near-invincible armor and an instant death sword, how do you fight someone who can clearly see both the immediate future and how that future affects them?

Even without atium, a Radiant can't outplan someone who can lay out specific plans whenever they want, outlast someone whose fuel lasts longer, or outthink someone who can literally see the how your strike affects them before you make it. I know about that one WoB that said that Vin could sometimes defeat 3rd ideal Kaladin, but she was missing several metals that would have given her a big advantage, and Kaladin is far from an average Windrunner.

I am with you. I must warn you that most of these guys you have been debating seem to believe Radiants are invincible. I also think there is more potential with twinborn than with full mistborn, but you make a great case.

I agree with @AirsickAviar that the physical abilities of metalborn actually do exceed those of Radiants. One thing the Rosharites fail to address is that feats of strength on Roshar are tempered by the lower gravity so are actually less impressive than they seem.

There is not reason to believe that invested attributes can't be divided into separate Nicrosil metal minds, but if not feruchemically tapping allomantic pewter would produce affects to potentially exceed duralumin bursts for longer periods.

So Agent Quicksilver arrives on Roshar to scout. Gets attacked by a shardbearer who throws a painrial net over him. For a few instants he feels searing pain but he burns it away feigning incapacity. When the shardbearer is about 10 paces away he draws and fires his revolver shooting right through the eye slit in the visor killing the shardbearer. After spending a few days bonding the shardblade left behind he uses the connection to store the shadow of the identity of the previous radiant. He experiences why they broke their bond and stores the pain of that breaking into the painrial while re-establishing the bond with the cryptic that formed the sword at the level before death. He makes an oath to revive as many other dead spren as he can before he is stopped while guaranteeing the safety of Scadrial from Rosharan invasion. He uses the radiant bond to the cryptic to find the matching plate. When he confronts the Shardbearer he is attacked at which time he disolves the shardplate and shoot that radiant in the head then proceeds to bond and revive the leftover blade adding a Reacher spren to his arsenal. The next plate leads to find and bond a cultivation spren after dispatching the shardbearer.

As he is investigating Alethcar he is accosted by a Skybreaker and the fight begins. The Skybreaker summons his blade stabbing Quicksilver through the body. For a moment it seems as if the fight will be over right there but the Skybreaker suddenly feels a painful tug against his spren bond. Quicksilver stored some of the Skybreakers identity and burned away the shard wound. Then he shoots the Skybreaker through the eye ending the fight and completing the bond transfer by tapping the Skybreakers stolen identity.

With the near complete bonding of all Rosharan surges he forms a Nahel bond through his feruchemy to Harmony making him the forth kind of bond smith with full metalborn potential.

The greatest weakness of Rosharan magic is that it can be assumed by anyone who fits the ideals of the relevant spren. At this time the conflict needs to be on Roshar as none of the spren who provide investiture can leave the system and stormlight needed to fuel it are only available there as well. Anywhere you can find the relevant metals Scadrian investiture works. Swinging Kolos swords is comparable to wielding shardhammers, so we have comparable strength. Brandon hand waved on pewter speed vs steel speed in the quoted material earlier, but compounded speed is near infinite just like compounded health. A thug would not have broken there legs like Kal did because of their increased durability. By the way Vin head butted a Thug and smashed his skull with D-Pewter so it was hard head vs very hard head neither had regular bone density. Scadrian science works throughout the cosmere but Rosharn science does not yet. In addition ultimately the combinations of abilities provide Scadiral with some the greatest advantages in the Cosmere.

@Bearer of Agonies Lots of metal on a Rosharan ship since all Rosharan fabrials require metal.

Edited March 25, 2021 by BenduLuke
New comment avoid double post.

[Zapata]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

@Bearer of Agonies Lots of metal on a Rosharan ship since all Rosharan fabrials require metal.

sure, but are they in a good position for a Lurcher to pull themself on deck?

[BenduLuke]

3 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

sure, but are they in a good position for a Lurcher to pull themself on deck?

Just saying metal wont be a problem

worse yet it is all burnable by allomancers or useable by ferrrings.

Edited March 25, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Zapata]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Just saying metal wont be a problem

worse yet it is all burnable by allomancers or usable by ferrings.

i'm not sure an allomancer would be in position to rip out a fabrial and eat it while being attacked, honestly. Besides, if the metal isn't as high up as possible, then the lurcher wouldn't be able to even land on deck. 

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Bearer of Agonies said:

i'm not sure an allomancer would be in position to rip out a fabrial and eat it while being attacked, honestly. Besides, if the metal isn't as high up as possible, then the lurcher wouldn't be able to even land on deck. 

Maybe not but any coinshot or lurcher could mess with the workings of a Rosharan Fabrial because of the metal wires.

[Zapata]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Maybe not but any coinshot or lurcher could mess with the workings of a Rosharan Fabrial because of the metal wires.

if they know what to look for and if fabrial metal isn't invested while in use. but to do that the allomancer needs to have their own weight, which they couldn't do on their own weightless ships. 

[BenduLuke]

3 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

if they know what to look for and if fabrial metal isn't invested while in use. but to do that the allomancer needs to have their own weight, which they couldn't do on their own weightless ships. 

From what I can tell the metal in the fabrials is not invested, just the gems. It doesn't take much force to bend wires depending on the metal and that is what the allomancers are pushing or pulling on. Bend the wires warp the affects. Change the fabrials position mess with its operation.

A coinshot could keep a fabrial ship away from them and add that ships speed to their own, and a lurcher could bring their ship to the fabrial ship to send over a boarding party.

[Enter a username]

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A coinshot could keep a fabrial ship away from them and add that ships speed to their own, and a lurcher could bring their ship to the fabrial ship to send over a boarding party.

What's the point of a boarding party? Unless you're planning to take prisoners or steal fabrails or something else that requires the fabrial ship to remain intact, Scadrial has the technology to completely destroy it.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Enter a username
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