Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

@BenduLuke it is against shard policy to double post, please stop.

[BenduLuke]

10 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Please tell me where in the Tittle or OP that says Twinborn.

Twinborn is just another type of mistborn from the second age. Wax was a twinborn, and Miles was  a compounding twinborn.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Again I need to disagree with your interpretation on what aluminum does and I did say my interpretation may be a stretch. "If someone were able to burn the amount of aluminum needed to become an Allomantic savant with the metal, it is possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture" Shard blade damage is an effect of unwanted investiture.  If the shardblade is in the Aluminum twin it might be neutralize by like metal with the aluminum burning and the spen inside the aluminum twin might have their identity stored into an Aluminum mind, and finally since the shardblade is the heart of the spren at the time its power might be neutralize as a hemalugic affect. Brandon has not come out on what the compounding effect of aluminum is so my interpretation of what might happen is valid until he does.

Your interpretation is valid, but I don't think that it makes sense. A-aluminum removes the unnatural investiture from you spiritweb. That is why you can cure the injuries from Shades with it: you remove the hostile investiture from your spiritweb. A Shardblade does not become part of your spiritweb, it just cuts the connection between your physical and spiritual. Therefore, no matter how good you are at cleansing the unnatural investiture from your soul, it will not heal your soul.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

and the radiant can be killed in their sleep while the Spren watches.

Or their spren could wake the Radiant up, and then the Radiant could kill the twinborn.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Kaladin did try to form Syl into a shardblade in shadesmar and it didn't work. They did try to take shardplate with them to shadesmar realm and they couldn't. Sure Kaladin walks around with a hoard of flighty air spren in Shademar? If Syl can't be a blade spren can't be armor in Shadesmar.

When Kaladin summoned Windspren into the cognitive, they did not appear to be solid. Windspren, in fact, are stated to be more firmly attached to the physical than the cognitive. Therefore, there is a chance that Windspren can still form into Plate in the cognitive. 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Twinborn is just another type of mistborn from the second age. Wax was a twinborn, and Miles was  a compounding twinborn.

no they aren't

they are another knid of Alllomancer, not Mistborn.

[BenduLuke]

9 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

no they aren't

they are another knid of Alllomancer, not Mistborn.

when you search coppermind for mistborn this is where it takes you

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Allomancy

A twin born is an allomancer and a feruchemist usually in the form of a misting and fering unlike TLR who was a fullborn. (full allomancer or mistborn and full feruchemist.) discussing misting abilities is definitely not beyond the scope of this topic and in my opinion makes the matchup's even more interesting because of the potential resonances.

also when I compare Radiants vs Mistborn I see the contest as resilience and durability vs versatility and creativity and shear power seems just about equal IMHO.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

when you search coppermind for mistborn this is where it takes you

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Allomancy

A twin born is an allomancer and a feruchemist usually in the form of a misting and fering unlike TLR who was a fullborn. (full allomancer or mistborn and full feruchemist.) discussing misting abilities is definitely not beyond the scope of this topic and in my opinion makes the matchup's even more interesting because of the potential resonances.

Mistings have zero chance, and we are not here to discuss Feruchemy if you want to discuss that make a new thread

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

also when I compare Radiants vs Mistborn I see the contest as resilience and durability vs versatility and creativity and shear power seems just about equal IMHO.

Shear power goes one way, versatility is about equal and durability is likewise one sided.

[BenduLuke]

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Your interpretation is valid, but I don't think that it makes sense. A-aluminum removes the unnatural investiture from you spiritweb. That is why you can cure the injuries from Shades with it: you remove the hostile investiture from your spiritweb. A Shardblade does not become part of your spiritweb, it just cuts the connection between your physical and spiritual. Therefore, no matter how good you are at cleansing the unnatural investiture from your soul, it will not heal your soul.

Or their spren could wake the Radiant up, and then the Radiant could kill the twinborn.

When Kaladin summoned Windspren into the cognitive, they did not appear to be solid. Windspren, in fact, are stated to be more firmly attached to the physical than the cognitive. Therefore, there is a chance that Windspren can still form into Plate in the cognitive. 

The reason I question being able to form plate is because Adolin was not able to bring his plate and Syl cannot form into a blade. It could be that living plate might be able to form where dead plate is unavailable. If Kaladin had sworn the 4th ideal at the end of OB we would know for sure but I can see it going either way though lean toward not for now.

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The reason I question being able to form plate is because Adolin was not able to bring his plate and Syl cannot form into a blade. It could be that living plate might be able to form where dead plate is unavailable. If Kaladin had sworn the 4th ideal at the end of OB we would know for sure but I can see it going either way though lean toward not for now.

Well, until we find out, we can't really use this either way.

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Mistings have zero chance, and we are not here to discuss Feruchemy if you want to discuss that make a new thread

Shear power goes one way, versatility is about equal and durability is likewise one sided.

I did open another topic about this before this one opened.

I also didn't see this topic excluding mistings and thus not excluding twinborn and with the various references to Wax and Guns clearly Twinborn fit within this topic. As for shear power from my perspective there have been displays of power from Mistborn that rival any display of Power by Radiants.

IMHO Radiants are potentially more durable and resilient than most mistborn, but that doesn't mean more powerful. A sufficiently amped up Mistborn can rip the metal right out of your body and that might well be enough to overwhelm even radiant healing not to mention the ranged balistic attacks we have seen which could very well demolish even shard plate.

Shardblades and Shardplate are not power alone they are tools that increase durability and attack effectiveness Just like every metal item in the area is a weapon and armor for a coinshot or lurcher.

Certainly don't discount the effectiveness of fire arms in the hands of a sufficiently skilled person Mistborn or not. Skadrial has reached, at this point, a higher level of Tech compared to Roshar and that creates a big advantage for them.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, until we find out, we can't really use this either way.

agreed

[NameIess]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

agreed

I guess we could ask Brandon in the livestream, but I feel like he might RAFO it.

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I guess we could ask Brandon in the livestream, but I feel like he might RAFO it.

I am so new I didn't realize that might be possible. If we did that maybe we should ask him to weigh in on the discussion in general. Who knows even if he doesn't answer some of the ideas might find their way into some of his next books.

I could use some critiques of my fan fic, not on the liberties I take with Brandon's world but on the writing in general. I haven't written much yet but would appreciate any feedback. Again not on the liberties i take with his magic system but on the writing. It is called Identity weaver.

[NameIess]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

I am so new I didn't realize that might be possible. If we did that maybe we should ask him to weigh in on the discussion in general. Who knows even if he doesn't answer some of the ideas might find their way into some of his next books.

I could use some critiques of my fan fic, not on the liberties I take with Brandon's world but on the writing in general. I haven't written much yet but would appreciate any feedback. Again not on the liberties i take with his magic system but on the writing. It is called Identity weaver.

Well, he's having a Stormlight Archives livestream tonight (Including Dawnshard spoilers), at 6:00 MST. I don't think that Brandon gives specific feedback for fan fics, but in his other, non-spoiler livestreams he's given advice for more general writing things.

Also, here's his commentary on the Mistborn vs. Radiant:

Quote

Maria Goulet‏

Radiant vs. Mistborn: who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the situation and the Radiant order.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

[Master Silver]

8 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

A level 4 Radiant?

 

Any Mistborn that isn't Vin with the Mists would struggle.

With enough Atium they would manage against most of them but probably not Bondsmiths. With Duralumin, they could catch a Radiant by surprise and One Hit Kill one with a rail gun shot or an unstoppable melee attack. But otherwise they are in trouble. 

 

Compounders on the other hand would be an absolute menace almost no matter which one they were, and some (Steel) would destroy a Radiant if they have enough stored Speed. 

A Fullborn would utterly wreck a Radiant. 

This is the point I think I was thinking of. Yes if the twin born or Mistborn has enough investiture lying around, for twin borns like Wax, if they have enough speed stored up. But how long does it take to store 5 minutes of speed so you can move super fast (faster than arrows). I think we saw Dalinar cruising along at 200 mph in RoW. So you have speed bubbles but again you have to store speed. If the twin born or even fullborn gets to store up months or years of investiture of course they will win, but what you have essentially done is who would win if they got in a fight the Flash (in the case of Wax) or Superman (in the case of Vyn with the mists or a fullborn like the Lord Ruler) or a Radiant. So I think we really have to define terms of the battle. If they don't have a ton of an attribute in their metal minds even being twice as fast and strong won't do you much good. 10x as fast and strong likely gives you the edge over the advantages of plate. Anyway sorry if someone has already mentioned this

[BenduLuke]

12 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

This is the point I think I was thinking of. Yes if the twin born or Mistborn has enough investiture lying around, for twin borns like Wax, if they have enough speed stored up. But how long does it take to store 5 minutes of speed so you can move super fast (faster than arrows). I think we saw Dalinar cruising along at 200 mph in RoW. So you have speed bubbles but again you have to store speed. If the twin born or even fullborn gets to store up months or years of investiture of course they will win, but what you have essentially done is who would win if they got in a fight the Flash (in the case of Wax) or Superman (in the case of Vyn with the mists or a fullborn like the Lord Ruler) or a Radiant. So I think we really have to define terms of the battle. If they don't have a ton of an attribute in their metal minds even being twice as fast and strong won't do you much good. 10x as fast and strong likely gives you the edge over the advantages of plate. Anyway sorry if someone has already mentioned this

In the case of a steel compound twin (Wax burned steel giving him pushes but stored and tapped Iron for mass) where the twin burns and stores to steel their speed would magnify like Miles health magnified because he compounded gold.  They could store speed, burn their steelmind to store many times more speed essentially producing an unlimited supply of speed so long as they find some way to mitigate wind resistance which could burn them to death if they move fast enough. They can withstand the G-forces generated. Of course the flip side of that would be that they may be able to tap the speed in their metal minds to magnify any steel pushes creating balistically fast accelerating metal projectiles. They certainly could add their own physical velocity to any metal projectile they push. It really would be the flash with a ranged attack and flight.

Maybe they could even launch a Radiant into space by their belt buckle. Only a windrunner or skybreaker could recover from that attack.

[BenduLuke]

43 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, he's having a Stormlight Archives livestream tonight (Including Dawnshard spoilers), at 6:00 MST. I don't think that Brandon gives specific feedback for fan fics, but in his other, non-spoiler livestreams he's given advice for more general writing things.

Also, here's his commentary on the Mistborn vs. Radiant:

 

I am not really expecting his critiques at this time but I would appreciate any feedback from others regardless.

I haven't read dawnshard yet, so not sure I will make the live stream plus I go to bed very early due to my early schedule. Thanks though.

[IndigoAjah]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

In the case of a steel compound twin (Wax burned steel giving him pushes but stored and tapped Iron for mass) where the twin burns and stores to steel their speed would magnify like Miles health magnified because he compounded gold.  They could store speed, burn their steelmind to store many times more speed essentially producing an unlimited supply of speed so long as they find some way to mitigate wind resistance which could burn them to death if they move fast enough. They can withstand the G-forces generated. Of course the flip side of that would be that they may be able to tap the speed in their metal minds to magnify any steel pushes creating balistically fast accelerating metal projectiles. They certainly could add their own physical velocity to any metal projectile they push. It really would be the flash with a ranged attack and flight.

Maybe they could even launch a Radiant into space by their belt buckle. Only a windrunner or skybreaker could recover from that attack.

Really, any Compounder is lethal if they have the imagination. Gold much harder to kill than a Radiant but one of the least scary. Compounded Connection sounds like they have huge Connection options. Fortune might make you Mat freaking Cauthon but able to Leech investiture.  Nicrosil and you could self invest so much that Surges would be useless against you. Brass and you're the Human Torch. But the scariest is Zinc. God-brain AND manipulation powers?!

 

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, IndigoAjah said:

Really, any Compounder is lethal if they have the imagination. Gold much harder to kill than a Radiant but one of the least scary. Compounded Connection sounds like they have huge Connection options. Fortune might make you Mat freaking Cauthon but able to Leech investiture.  Nicrosil and you could self invest so much that Surges would be useless against you. Brass and you're the Human Torch. But the scariest is Zinc. God-brain AND manipulation powers?!

 

Maybe you should present a match up using one of those compounders.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

IMHO Radiants are potentially more durable and resilient than most mistborn, but that doesn't mean more powerful. A sufficiently amped up Mistborn can rip the metal right out of your body and that might well be enough to overwhelm even radiant healing not to mention the ranged balistic attacks we have seen which could very well demolish even shard plate.

Mistborn cannot rip metals out of people, TLR has ways of strengthening his allomancy using compounding.

 

Also, TLR would wreck any Radiant no questions asked. #TLRForever

[NameIess]

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Maybe you should present a match up using one of those compounders.

All right, I'll edit the OP.

[Aspiring Writer]

Also, I'd like to mention that it makes sense in-world for Radiants to be more powerful than Mistborn. Radiants are bonded to a piece of a god, a small sliver (And maybe a combination of two) and utilize smaller slivers of gods for armor. Mistborn don't look that special in that light.

[Frustration]

Ok, now Things get intresting as Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are avalible, however Fabrials are much more powerful than Medalians and OP Scandrian powers like Fullborn and Halfborn, are neigh impossible to get. I'll get into it more later, but this could be really cool.

Also Dawnshards are a Thing but I haven't read Dawnshard, so.......

I can't say on that.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Ok, now Things get intresting as Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are avalible, however Fabrials are much more powerful than Medalians and OP Scandrian powers like Fullborn and Halfborn, are neigh impossible to get. I'll get into it more later, but this could be really cool.

Also Dawnshards are a Thing but I haven't read Dawnshard, so.......

I can't say on that.

I have not read Dawnshard, bt I read the coppermind, and they should not come into the equation.

[NameIess]

So, with the allowance of all Rosharan magic, we have to talk about anti-investiture. What effect will it have on the battle? I'm thinking that it would be fairly easy to create anti-Preservation and Ruin light, but specific anti-metals light would be difficult.

[Master Silver]

38 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Mistborn cannot rip metals out of people, TLR has ways of strengthening his allomancy using compounding.

 

Also, TLR would wreck any Radiant no questions asked. #TLRForever

Challenge accepted. I propose Nale. I have no idea what division does, but I imagine Nale is at least a match for Ishar in terms of combat ability. I know as a bondsmith Ishar wields some crazy amount of power. Fifth Ideal Radiant who happens to be a herald for the win :-p