Chapter 15/Warbreaker incosistency?

[DracostarA]

So as you all know in Chapter 15 Vasher mentions how he has reorganised his classification system so that Spren are Type 1 and Returned are Type 2, whereas in Warbreaker he considered the Returned to be Type 1.

However, we know from WoB that Vasher has been to Scadrial before Warbreaker, and the Shardblades were his inspiration for Nightblood. Assuming he travelled via the Cognitive Realm, he should have met sentient Spren, or at the very least been aware of them even before Warbreaker, so why has the change to his classification system come afterwards?

Either this is a continuity error or perhaps he was just reluctant to tell Vivenna about true Type 1s since there was no example of them on Nalthis.

Any thoughts?

[Ixthos he/him]

1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

So as you all know in Chapter 15 Vasher mentions how he has reorganised his classification system so that Spren are Type 1 and Returned are Type 2, whereas in Warbreaker he considered the Returned to be Type 1.

However, we know from WoB that Vasher has been to Scadrial before Warbreaker, and the Shardblades were his inspiration for Nightblood. Assuming he travelled via the Cognitive Realm, he should have met sentient Spren, or at the very least been aware of them even before Warbreaker, so why has the change to his classification system come afterwards?

Either this is a continuity error or perhaps he was just reluctant to tell Vivenna about true Type 1s since there was no example of them on Nalthis.

Any thoughts?

I don't think Vasher had been to Roshar, but rather had heard of it and that became the inspiration - so not based on something he saw but something he heard. If he has been to Roshar before it could be he didn't realise the significance of spren, seeing them as some sort of native species and not linking them to the concept of investiture. And it also is possible that it is only recently he started to think about spren and evaluate their possible inclusion into the system even if he had known of them before, so expanding his ideas from just BioChroma to investiture, or seeing BioChroma and investiture as part of the same concept where before he thought of them as separate.

[Ookla-son-son-Ventyl]

5 hours ago, DracostarA said:

So as you all know in Chapter 15 Vasher mentions how he has reorganised his classification system so that Spren are Type 1 and Returned are Type 2, whereas in Warbreaker he considered the Returned to be Type 1.

However, we know from WoB that Vasher has been to Scadrial before Warbreaker, and the Shardblades were his inspiration for Nightblood. Assuming he travelled via the Cognitive Realm, he should have met sentient Spren, or at the very least been aware of them even before Warbreaker, so why has the change to his classification system come afterwards?

Either this is a continuity error or perhaps he was just reluctant to tell Vivenna about true Type 1s since there was no example of them on Nalthis.

Any thoughts?

He may have visited during the time between the False Desolation and Present day Roshar, when there were either no Radiants or few, excluding the Skybreakers.

[DracostarA]

Quote

Questioner

Is [Nightblood] like, the Shardblades, kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

It is. So, what happened is: Vasher, who was involved in the creation of Nightblood, visited Roshar and came back with this knowledge, and they tried to create something.

Questioner

So he based it off those?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And they got it kind of right.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 22, 2017)

So Brandon has confirmed that Vasher went to Roshar, most likely post-Recreance with the Shardblades, and wanted to make one himself and that's how Nightblood was created.

1 hour ago, Ventyl said:

He may have visited during the time between the False Desolation and Present day Roshar, when there were either no Radiants or few, excluding the Skybreakers.

I agree he visited during this time, but if he had he would have come through Shadesmar where Spren were still alive and active in their cities like Celebrant. Even if he avoided settlements I doubt he would have got through Shadesmar without at least being aware of sentient Spren living there.

[spaidapig he/him]

So we know from WoB that Vasher had been to Roshar before creating Nightblood. Supposedly together with Shashara, but that question had been RAFOed.

At least we know that Shardbaldes were the model for Nightblood, so Vasher was there and has maybe seen them in use, or has heared of them from stories.

Quote

Questioner

So was Vasher, or the lady that created-- that was part of the process creating Nightblood a worldhopper, then?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher had been to Roshar before he created Nightblood, yes.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

All, or at least some, of the Five Scholars were off world, some possibly on other planets than Roshar, because they visited places that have reached an Industrial time (So Scadrial is a possibility, or some other world we do not yet know) AND they know Silverlight, the CR city with one or more Univerities.

The Scholars were supposedly some of the first cosmere scholars in general and researched a broad field regarding Investiture. Through this research they were able to decifer at least some of the machanics behind awakening an BioChromatic Breath. Meanwhile they created their system of four different types of awakened entities.

I think they were so focused on their homeworld, that they didn't condider incluing other magic systems in their research. Now, Vasher has spent a significant time on Roshar, to get to know at least some part of this system. He delves deeper into the nature of spren and Investiture in general and widens his limited view.

So I think, this is no continuity error, because at that moment in Warbreaker he didn't know/think/research about the true nature of spren, it is simply science. Like Zahel himself says. You have to adapt your point of view/your systems, based on the knowledge you have. And if you get to know new information, you have to change them, so they fit to your new understanding.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

I think the simplest understanding of the apparent inconsistency is that Casher has greatly expanded his understanding of Realmatics, and as a consequence he has added to and restructured his entire system. Just as real life science evolved from viewing cells as blobs of living material to understanding DNA, organelles, and cellular membranes, so has this scholar’s understanding of the underlying principles of Investiture evolved. 

[Rorzikel]

15 hours ago, DracostarA said:

I agree he visited during this time, but if he had he would have come through Shadesmar where Spren were still alive and active in their cities like Celebrant. Even if he avoided settlements I doubt he would have got through Shadesmar without at least being aware of sentient Spren living there.

Depending on how soon after the Recreance he came, Vasher wouldn't have necessarily had to seen any truespren, let alone whole cities of them, unless he specifically went to the highspren. However long the window was before the spren started appreciably regaining numbers from a near complete genocide would allow for him not to even know they existed.

[RShara she/her]

On 10/15/2020 at 1:47 AM, DracostarA said:

However, we know from WoB that Vasher has been to Scadrial before Warbreaker, and the Shardblades were his inspiration for Nightblood.

Do you mean Roshar? Because Brandon has said that Vasher has only been to the Physical Realm of Roshar and Nalthis.

Quote

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015)

Nightblood would have been made less than 1000 years ago, so definitely after the Recreance.

(WB takes place between SA and Mistborn Era 1, so within that 350 year period. In WB, the Manywar was about 300 years ago, and Nightblood was made a little bit before that. Assuming the maximum amount of time between Warbreaker and SA, it'd be somewhere around 750 or 800 years since Nightblood was created.)

[DracostarA]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Do you mean Roshar? Because Brandon has said that Vasher has only been to the Physical Realm of Roshar and Nalthis.

The WoB you link there explicitly says that aside from the Physical Realms of Roshar and Nalthis, he has been to places in Shadesmar, which is where sentient Spren live. He would have had to be in Roshar's CR to get to Roshar's Physical Realm, so he must have known about Spren. Whether or not he cared to classify them or told Vivenna the full story in Warbreaker is a different matter.

5 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Depending on how soon after the Recreance he came, Vasher wouldn't have necessarily had to seen any truespren, let alone whole cities of them, unless he specifically went to the highspren. However long the window was before the spren started appreciably regaining numbers from a near complete genocide would allow for him not to even know they existed.

I don't think it was ever a TOTAL genocide. We know not all truespren want to bond, like Ico and others who presumably have their own lives in Shadesmar. I think there were still a significant number of truespren who survived the Recreance.

[RShara she/her]

6 hours ago, DracostarA said:

The WoB you link there explicitly says that aside from the Physical Realms of Roshar and Nalthis, he has been to places in Shadesmar, which is where sentient Spren live. He would have had to be in Roshar's CR to get to Roshar's Physical Realm, so he must have known about Spren. Whether or not he cared to classify them or told Vivenna the full story in Warbreaker is a different matter.

I wasn't arguing against that? I was asking the OP if they meant Roshar instead of Scadrial, since Vasher has never been to the PR of Scadrial.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Depending on how soon after the Recreance he came, Vasher wouldn't have necessarily had to seen any truespren, let alone whole cities of them, unless he specifically went to the highspren.

How did he cross the oceans of beads without spren? Even if he built his own ship, how did he propel it and how did he find the perpendicularity?

[Rorzikel]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How did he cross the oceans of beads without spren? Even if he built his own ship, how did he propel it and how did he find the perpendicularity?

I dunno, how do you think a master Awakener with the ability to animate constructs could propel a ship? When a sock is a deadly weapon and pants are power armor I wouldn’t worry about transportation. As for the perpendicularity? Same way he’d find anything else, he’d go looking for it until he found it.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I dunno, how do you think a master Awakener with the ability to animate constructs could propel a ship? When a sock is a deadly weapon and pants are power armor I wouldn’t worry about transportation.

True.

7 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

As for the perpendicularity? Same way he’d find anything else, he’d go looking for it until he found it.

I have to point out that a whole continent is a very large place to search and Vasher is on a tight time budget. Each week costs him a Breath, which is irreplacable in Shadesmar.

[Wandering Investor]

Instead of an error, I view this as Vasher changing his thinking over time. His original categories were based solely on awakening standards. Now he's had time to incorporate the greater realmatics into his categories. 

Also, we see him referring to himself as not a real person. Now, he may have believed this back in Warbreaker and never said it, but working on the assumption that this is a new idea for him (as in came about after Warbreaker). This would make him more inline with a spren than a person with a real soul, which would lead to pulling all forms of investiture life forms into this categorization efforts. 

[RShara she/her]

22 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How did he cross the oceans of beads without spren? Even if he built his own ship, how did he propel it and how did he find the perpendicularity?

There are actually routes and caravans between Roshar and Nalthis.

Quote

Questioner

For the worldhopping that happens with Vasher and Vivenna. Does that happen... Are they the humans that came over--

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not.

Questioner

They're just completely independent people who hopped--

Brandon Sanderson

They're moving more with the hidden cosmere economy that has grown up moving between planets. Between Nalthis and Roshar, you can actually catch a caravan. There's actual movement and travel between them. That's been in place on Roshar for quite a while at this point.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, RShara said:

There are actually routes and caravans between Roshar and Nalthis.

 

But where do they end? We saw no offworlders in Oathbringer. Spren have an inherent economic advantage in Shadesmar. They do not need to eat or drink, yet they cannot go to other subastrals. Hence the caravans will end at a port, where Spren take over shipping. Or there is even an exchange point out there as far as Spren can go.

We saw how trade to Scadrial quickly ended. If the Spren had been wiped out, trade would have ceased.

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But where do they end? We saw no offworlders in Oathbringer. Spren have an inherent economic advantage in Shadesmar. They do not need to eat or drink, yet they cannot go to other subastrals. Hence the caravans will end at a port, where Spren take over shipping. Or there is even an exchange point out there as far as Spren can go.

We saw how trade to Scadrial quickly ended. If the Spren had been wiped out, trade would have ceased.

We saw several offworlders in Oathbringer, including Riino from Elantris, Vivenna (who even says she took a caravan, I think?). Plus the mist like spren, that are sapient, but aren't Radiant spren. Ico transports them often enough that he has a device that condenses water for them.

We also only saw a very small part of Shadesmar--one city and a couple of ships. It would make more sense for the trade routes and caravans (and humans) to begin/end near Cultivation's perpendicularity, since that's where most of the transitions would happen.

Edited October 18, 2020 by RShara

[+Bzhydack he/him]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But where do they end? We saw no offworlders in Oathbringer. Spren have an inherent economic advantage in Shadesmar. They do not need to eat or drink, yet they cannot go to other subastrals. Hence the caravans will end at a port, where Spren take over shipping. Or there is even an exchange point out there as far as Spren can go.

We saw how trade to Scadrial quickly ended. If the Spren had been wiped out, trade would have ceased.

Riino the Lighthousekeeper, when he saw Kaladin is Invested, asked him first about Hightening - this mean this is probably the most common Investiture in Cognitive Realm, so this mean travelers from Nalthis probably arent that rare like, for example, from Northen Scadrial.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 18.10.2020 at 4:39 PM, RShara said:

We saw several offworlders in Oathbringer, including Riino from Elantris, Vivenna (who even says she took a caravan, I think?). Plus the mist like spren, that are sapient, but aren't Radiant spren. Ico transports them often enough that he has a device that condenses water for them.

What, are you saying that some spren need water? That is quite unlikely. Ico wouldn't store his unused water device in a box in that case.

On 18.10.2020 at 4:39 PM, RShara said:

We also only saw a very small part of Shadesmar--one city and a couple of ships. It would make more sense for the trade routes and caravans (and humans) to begin/end near Cultivation's perpendicularity, since that's where most of the transitions would happen.

The caravans cannot begin there. The perpendicularity is on land, hence inside an ocean in Shadesmar. You must go there by ship. And it really makes no sense to take pack animals for use in Shadesmar, whatever they be, into a montain environment on Roshar.

 

[Lemiltock]

I think a big assumption you are making here is that the first time Vasher saw a spren he was like hmmm a piece of divinity these must be investiture that has achieved sapience. But given the lack of spren on Nalthis he likely just thought of them as creatures that now lived in the cognitive, especially given when they got to Roshar no sapient spren appeared.

 

So yes he saw spren, but nothing he saw indicated he needed to change his system on invested/awakened objects.

[RShara she/her]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What, are you saying that some spren need water? That is quite unlikely. Ico wouldn't store his unused water device in a box in that case.

The caravans cannot begin there. The perpendicularity is on land, hence inside an ocean in Shadesmar. You must go there by ship. And it really makes no sense to take pack animals for use in Shadesmar, whatever they be, into a montain environment on Roshar.

 

No, I'm saying that Ico transports humans often enough that he has a device to make water for them.

Caravans don't have to be only land-vehicles. They can involve land vehicles and ships, on the same route!

[Rainier]

On 10/15/2020 at 0:47 AM, DracostarA said:

However, we know from WoB that Vasher has been to Scadrial before Warbreaker, and the Shardblades were his inspiration for Nightblood. Assuming he travelled via the Cognitive Realm, he should have met sentient Spren, or at the very least been aware of them even before Warbreaker, so why has the change to his classification system come afterwards?

Either this is a continuity error or perhaps he was just reluctant to tell Vivenna about true Type 1s since there was no example of them on Nalthis.

Any thoughts?

I think it has to do with ego. Vasher, and the other Scholars, were all Returned, and their thinking reflects a certain arrogance, or selfishness. The main reason why I think this is how Vasher acts in chapter 15. He put himself as the type 1, but then realized he's more like the Lifeless than anything else, and that the spren are truly distinct from both the Returned and the Lifeless.

It makes sense, after all. The Returned are worshipped like gods, while the Lifeless are used as slaves. Of course they're two different things, and deserve two different classifications. When he went to Roshar, he couldn't call anything Awakened, because there was no Awakening, so a distinction is right and proper. At some point he realizes how connected and similar everything is, and eventually his ego allows him to realize he's been wrong the whole time.

So Type 1 Invested Entity is power becoming aware on its own, spontaneously. Type 2 Invested Entity, Returned and Lifeless, Vasher and Szeth, are the soul of something that once lived, stapled to a dead body. Type 3 Invested Entities would have to include Awakened objects, as that was the original Type 3, but what else would it include? Fabrials and gemstones? Who knows. Vasher will have to inform us. What I wouldn't give for his lecture as epigraphs. Maybe I'll get that, too, in the Warbreaker sequel.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

No, I'm saying that Ico transports humans often enough that he has a device to make water for them.

In a box in the hold. It is not unknown, but it is rare. I may point out that long-range aircraft carry an emergency coffin. It costs him next to nothing to carry that thing.

9 hours ago, RShara said:

Caravans don't have to be only land-vehicles. They can involve land vehicles and ships, on the same route!

Yes, but then the personnel will change. That is at a minimum, pack animals (lifeless ?) carry stuff through the void until the first port on the pseudo-oceans of the subastral. There the cargo will be transferred to ships. The caravaneers going through the void between worlds will never see the final destination. In fact they may not know where it even is. Possibly there are waystops where personnel changes in between the worlds and only passengers go the full way.

So if the spren part were to vanish, the whole route would collapse.

[Quantus he/him]

21 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The caravans cannot begin there. The perpendicularity is on land, hence inside an ocean in Shadesmar. You must go there by ship. And it really makes no sense to take pack animals for use in Shadesmar, whatever they be, into a montain environment on Roshar.

Actually, the Perpendicularity is *technically* underwater in the Horneater Ocean(s).  It's a green fluid layer found under the normal water, so that should, or at least could, be an Island in the Bead Sea, with a land-bridge if there are any decent-sized rivers flowing down the mountains.    

On 10/16/2020 at 6:22 PM, Oltux72 said:

True.

I have to point out that a whole continent is a very large place to search and Vasher is on a tight time budget. Each week costs him a Breath, which is irreplacable in Shadesmar.

Maybe not.  The spren need Stormlight to survive just like he does, and they are able to soak it up from the sky directly when the storm passes. Vasher may be able to do that too, on the Shadesmar side.  

 

Devil's advocate:  Separate from the Time Budget issue, we know he's been to Roshar before, but we dont know what the Naltis side of that looks trip like.  Odds are one or more of hte other Scholars came on that previous trip, and nothing to say that locating the Perpendicularity was something they were even involved in.  We know they made the trip, learned Realmic things, and revolutionized Awakening after they returned.  But discovering interesting new things on a research trip to the Amazon does not mean you also Discovered the New World. That could have been some entirely different, much earlier group, who may or may not have had the Dietary needs of a Returned.  

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/19/2020 at 7:55 PM, Rainier said:

So Type 1 Invested Entity is power becoming aware on its own, spontaneously. Type 2 Invested Entity, Returned and Lifeless, Vasher and Szeth, are the soul of something that once lived, stapled to a dead body. Type 3 Invested Entities would have to include Awakened objects, as that was the original Type 3, but what else would it include? Fabrials and gemstones? Who knows. Vasher will have to inform us. What I wouldn't give for his lecture as epigraphs. Maybe I'll get that, too, in the Warbreaker sequel.

There's no reason Type 2 has to still include Lifeless and Type 3 has to include Awakened objects. He specifically says he threw the whole scale out.