RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[Sparks]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I don’t think Urithiru falls at the end of Rhythm of War.
 

It falls 4/5ths of the way through. Possibly 2/3ds. The end is much to obvious for Brandon.

Urithiru falling smacks of Kholinar falling, and for similar reasons.  If the Knights successfully defend and stay static in Urithiru, it makes for a less exciting story.  Placing the good guys on the run, and having to scrap for shelter and safety raises the stakes for the Brandon avalanche at the climax.  

I think a good "win some, lose some" scenario for the climax of the second act of the book would be for Raboniel to be successful in driving the Radiants out of Urithiru; but Navani bonds or successfully awakens the Sibling and frees it from containment within the Urithiru gem pillar.  

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Urithiru falling smacks of Kholinar falling, and for similar reasons.  If the Knights successfully defend and stay static in Urithiru, it makes for a less exciting story.  Placing the good guys on the run, and having to scrap for shelter and safety raises the stakes for the Brandon avalanche at the climax.  

I think a good "win some, lose some" scenario for the climax of the second act of the book would be for Raboniel to be successful in driving the Radiants out of Urithiru; but Navani bonds or successfully awakens the Sibling and frees it from containment within the Urithiru gem pillar.  

Agreed. I think it may happen a bit later in the book than Kholinar though. But definitely not at the end - it’s just too obvious a place!

[Sparks]

There may also be a religious parallel at play here too; just as the Church is revealed not to be the building / temple it is housed in, but the hearts of the people that identify with the Church, Urithiru may be revealed not to be the tower that houses it, but instead the Sibling / Bondsmith pairing that resided in the tower all along for dramatic effect.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

51 minutes ago, Sparks said:

There may also be a religious parallel at play here too; just as the Church is revealed not to be the building / temple it is housed in, but the hearts of the people that identify with the Church, Urithiru may be revealed not to be the tower that houses it, but instead the Sibling / Bondsmith pairing that resided in the tower all along for dramatic effect.

Since I’m theorizing that’s Urithiru is actually a giant spren, this could be literally and figuratively true!

[Slater he/him]

12 hours ago, Valigus said:

I think the most interesting take away from this for me isn’t one others may think of but it’s kaladin and at least his perception in that he is unique, the fused seem to have never seen anyone like him before, they don’t even seem to consider that kaladin could be skilled enough to kill lezian without powers and find it more likely for him to have shardplate then be able to do that. That indicates A level of skill they have never seen before and coupled with leshwi’s fascination with kaladin makes me think something about him is unique in all the desolations some part of his skill and the way he has managed to redound a radiant order quite successfully without any help and the fact that even the fused seem to be aware of his growing legend.

 

also I desperately want a leshwi pov chapter, I really want to know what’s driving her fascination with kaladin

I think Kaladin's uniqueness comes from essentially being everything you could want in a Radiant while also being basically totally divorced from the Old Order's roots. If your a Fused, every Radiant you ever fought came about from them following the Heralds and its a history that starts with man betraying the Singers. So even the most honorable of the old Radiant's would to the Fused have the taste of hypocrites and whitewashing there origins.

But Kaladin and his reborn Order came about with basically no help from anything related to the old besides Syl. So for someone like Leshwi seeing him genuinely live up to all those ideals of the Radiant's while also not really being tied to any of of the obviously very bitter past has to stand out.

Edit" Been gona a longgggggg time. Nice to see discussion here is still as thoughtful and fun as ever

Edited October 7, 2020 by Slater

[Karger he/him]

Loosing control of Urithiru seems like a book five thing IMO.  Loosing control for prolonged periods would not really work twice as a method of upping the stakes.

[Goatbringer he/him]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

Why do they imprison their government?

Hey sounds like we could use some of that in the real world amirite people? Ha!

[Sandra she/her]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Loosing control of Urithiru seems like a book five thing IMO.  Loosing control for prolonged periods would not really work twice as a method of upping the stakes.

Knowing Brandon Sanderson, I would expect the plan of Raboniel to be carried out in the first or second arc of this book. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Loosing control of Urithiru seems like a book five thing IMO.  Loosing control for prolonged periods would not really work twice as a method of upping the stakes.

I doubt Urithiru could be taken back. If it is lost, the war is lost.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

I doubt Urithiru could be taken back. If it is lost, the war is lost.

It depends on exactly how it was taken

Perhaps fully awakening the Sibling would be enough to eject the Fused even if they'd driven out the Radiants from it, and they do so from Shadesmar or something

[+Oltux72 he/him]

31 minutes ago, robardin said:

It depends on exactly how it was taken

Perhaps fully awakening the Sibling would be enough to eject the Fused even if they'd driven out the Radiants from it, and they do so from Shadesmar or something

Well, if you were leading the Fused having taken Urithiru, why would you leave it intact? I'd wreck the gem column.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

18 hours ago, Valigus said:

I think the most interesting take away from this for me isn’t one others may think of but it’s kaladin and at least his perception in that he is unique, the fused seem to have never seen anyone like him before, they don’t even seem to consider that kaladin could be skilled enough to kill lezian without powers and find it more likely for him to have shardplate then be able to do that. That indicates A level of skill they have never seen before and coupled with leshwi’s fascination with kaladin makes me think something about him is unique in all the desolations some part of his skill and the way he has managed to redound a radiant order quite successfully without any help and the fact that even the fused seem to be aware of his growing legend.

 

 

I think it is just that they are not used to the Humans having developed this far in skills, military tactics. They mention too many times how they let them go too long. In the past it was always a quick timeline of the Heralds showing up and building up defenses and teaching them what they could.  

18 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Raboniel concern about Dalinar is understandable, as he is a Bondsmith and his powers include the ability to trap spren including the Unmade 

Her concern about Jasnah is yet to be understood, as much as Jasnah is by far the deadliest Soulcaster in the world (and most likely the only one Elsecaller in human army) I don't think soulcasting alone is what is troubling her.  She specified Jasnah oaths might be advanced enough to push through suppression fabrials. Is this in any way related to her order, or is just a assumption her oaths are indeed stronger (4th ideal)?

Kaladin is seen as just a soldier, Dalinar a Bondsmith, as you say.  Jasnah in addition to maybe being at the 4th level,  it also might be their prejudice since it is obvious that they place much more weight on rulers and caste like levels.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

But the leaders being literally a "pillar of the community" must predate that. I wonder if they are imitating something else, like this is the derivative of how Singer leadership used to be. Were singers at one time actually able to transform into living stone? Were they led by "spirits of the stone" that the Stone Shamans refer to, but probably don't really understand? 

I wonder if this connects with the Shin and spirits of Stone? 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

What if the Sibling "going to sleep" or "dying" or whatever process it went through was related to the defeat of Ba-Ado-Mishram?

Quote

“There is very little information about Ba-Ado-Mishram in more modern times. I can only assume she, unlike many of them, returned to Damnation or was destroyed during Aharietiam. ”

—From Hessi's Mythica, page 226

Perhaps this was a trade off, a sacrifice that while costing the parsh their ability to use forms of power, ended up costing the Radiants the ability to use Urithiru.

Consider the Emeralds from the Gem Archive:

Quote

"Something must be done about the remnants of Odium's forces. The parsh, as they are now called, continue their war with zeal, even without their masters from Damnation."

-Drawer 30-20, First Emerald

"A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat." -Drawer 30-20, Second Emerald "Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." -Drawer 30-20, Third Emerald

Notice the connection to scholars identifying an edge, much like this new villain has identified too.  Theorizing, just like she did for millennia...

Quote

“We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects. ”

—Drawer 30-20, fifth emerald

Maybe these "unintended side effects" also applied to the Radiants somehow?

Quote

"Surely this will bring—at long last—the end to war that the Heralds promised us."

-Drawer 30-20, Final Emerald

Sounds like a parallel to our new crazy fused friend's train of thought!

Edited October 7, 2020 by VirtuousTraveller

[Master Silver]

Losing Urithiru is like the Allies losing England during WWII. Would victory have been still technically possible? Maybe, but it would become exponentially higher. Drama and a good and all, but the Radiants are already facing an up hill battle. They started off with all the land, vs ex-slaves, and the Listeners (a people on the verge of surrender). They went from that to losing many countries, fighting against the Fused, the ex-slaves becoming Soldiers, and a people with civilization, losing plate and shards, having a king turn traitor, and the most powerful fused waking up. And during all of this it is humanity vs Odium, so it has always been a lopsided fight. Losing Urithiru would shatter the Aletheis and Radiants ability to effectively wage war. It is unrealistic to think guerrilla tactics can beat a Odium

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

What if the Sibling "going to sleep" or "dying" or whatever process it went through was related to the defeat of Ba-Ado-Mishram?

Perhaps this was a trade off, a sacrifice that while costing the parsh their ability to use forms of power, ended up costing the Radiants the ability to use Urithiru.

The unintended consequence was the Parsh having a piece of their spirit web torn out, a spiritual lobotomy of sorts. The guilt over this act, them thinking the enemy was vanquished for good and Honor raving about how the Surges destroyed Ashyn and would desroy Roshar led directly to the Recreance, which seems like it began either the same day as the strike or soon after. The breaking of the bonds creating "deadeyes" seems to do a very similar thing to the spren as what was done to the Parsh. They still are alive, but part of them has been torn out and it left them severely brain damaged. 

Seems like there were two things going on with the Sibling. It was "withdrawing" before the strike happened causing Urithiru not to function properly which made it too hard to live there, which is why the Radiants abandoned it. Whatever "withdrawing" means the Sibling had to have been bonded to Melishi during the strike otherwise it would not have succeeded. The Recreance began very soon after the strike which created the rest of the deadeyes. Either Melishi broke their oaths or the strike itself damaged the Sibling causing them to be "dead".

I broke down what we know about the timeline of events here and explained why I think something was going on with the Sibling before the strike or the Recreance:

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Losing Urithiru is like the Allies losing England during WWII. Would victory have been still technically possible? Maybe, but it would become exponentially higher. Drama and a good and all, but the Radiants are already facing an up hill battle. They started off with all the land, vs ex-slaves, and the Listeners (a people on the verge of surrender). They went from that to losing many countries, fighting against the Fused, the ex-slaves becoming Soldiers, and a people with civilization, losing plate and shards, having a king turn traitor, and the most powerful fused waking up. And during all of this it is humanity vs Odium, so it has always been a lopsided fight. Losing Urithiru would shatter the Aletheis and Radiants ability to effectively wage war.

It would mean a total loss of the oath gates. It also means a loss of the archives and technology of Urithiru.

In the addition to the hit to morale.

8 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

It is unrealistic to think guerrilla tactics can beat a Odium

Indeed. Odium would exterminate mankind on Roshar.

[Honorless he/him]

Doesn't it strike anyone as weird how Odium apparently just listened to the Fused congregation? I thought he'd have a more direct hand in things. He's giving them a lot more leeway than I expected.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Honorless

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Doesn't it strike anyone as weird how Odium apparently just listened to the Fused congregation? I thought he'd have a more direct hand in things. He's giving them a lot more leeway than I expected.

Well, he tried micromanaging. It lost him an Unmade.

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Losing Urithiru is like the Allies losing England during WWII. Would victory have been still technically possible? Maybe, but it would become exponentially higher. Drama and a good and all, but the Radiants are already facing an up hill battle. They started off with all the land, vs ex-slaves, and the Listeners (a people on the verge of surrender). They went from that to losing many countries, fighting against the Fused, the ex-slaves becoming Soldiers, and a people with civilization, losing plate and shards, having a king turn traitor, and the most powerful fused waking up. And during all of this it is humanity vs Odium, so it has always been a lopsided fight. Losing Urithiru would shatter the Aletheis and Radiants ability to effectively wage war. It is unrealistic to think guerrilla tactics can beat a Odium

The Fused seem pretty desperate this chapter, the fight is not as lopsided as you would think, in fact the opposite might be true, as I theorized here. The fight is not so much Humans vs Odium and Singers as it is Team Honor vs Team Odium, Humans and Singers on both sides. 

This plan of Rebonil  is written like a big gamble. This chapter undermines the credibility behind that plan. Leshwi is the most competent commander from our perspective and she seems to disapproves it. Rebonil  herself is a somewhat crazy person. They could still take Urithiru, it might just not be the win they expect it to be.  

@Oltux72 "Indeed. Odium would exterminate mankind on Roshar." Some Fused want to exterminate Humanity. Odium wants to rule them. Shalash said he always had wanted for Humans to join his side at the end of OB. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Diomedes

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

This plan of Rebonil  is written like a big gamble.

It has a high likelihood of failure.

8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

This chapter undermines the credibility behind that plan. Leshwi is the most competent commander from our perspective and she seems to disapproves it. Rebonil  herself is a somewhat crazy person. They could still take Urithiru, it might just not be the win they expect it to be. 

What is there to lose? Except for Taravangian as an informer, not much. And they are unlikely to keep him much lonfger anyway. They do not even need to take Urithiru. Damaging it beyond repair would do the job.

8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

 

@Oltux72 "Indeed. Odium would exterminate mankind on Roshar." Some Fused want to exterminate Humanity. Odium wants to rule them. Shalash said he always had wanted for Humans to join his side at the end of OB. 

That is very much in conflict with the discussion he had with Taravangian in Oathbringer. He promised to let live the people of Kharbranth. We must conclude that he has changed his mind.

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, if you were leading the Fused having taken Urithiru, why would you leave it intact? I'd wreck the gem column.

Maybe a Fused can't even physically approach the column, much less remain in Urithiru, if the Sibling were up and running. Like, it's more than a Voidlight Surgebinding suppression thing but even a Voidlight cancellation thing (where the Fused perhaps need Voidlight to remain in their host body - Chirri-Chirri killed one simply by sucking out the Light ).

We'll just have to find out eh!

Now that we've seen some Fused POVs, or at least a view into a Conclave of the Fused through Venli's POV, there are a couple more questions that come to my mind.

The construction and founding of Urithiru is still mysterious but we can infer that it was continually in occupation by the Radiants since at least Nohadon's time until the Slumbering, and the Fused have never been able to assault it because of some kind of fabrial installed in it that is still functioning now even with the Sibling "essentially a deadeye". Right? Makes you wonder what the association between the two are.

And how Raboniel knows so much about how it works to know that it could be inverted if the Sibling were "slumbering". Evidently the way the suppressor fabrial they made was somehow based on the Sibling/Fused Repeller fabrial from something she learned millenia ago.

Why is Urithiru "unhallowed" to the Shin, who in addition to possessing the eight abandoned Honorblades, have evidently have known about it and its location all this time? What is it that "hallows stone" in their eyes anyway?

38 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Doesn't it strike anyone as weird how Odium apparently just listened to the Fused congregation? I thought he'd have a more direct hand in things. He's giving them a lot more leeway than I expected.

We don't actually know the "victory condition" that Odium is going for here. Remember, ultimately he doesn't really care about destroying humanity or having the singers retake Roshar - they are proxies for him as physical agents. His true aim is to break from his restriction to the Rosharan system by some past combined machination of Honor and Cultivation - after killing both of them, of course.

He's restricted but not completely bound - while he can't leave, he isn't hobbled in power the way Preservation managed to do to Ruin, because he was still able to splinter and kill Honor after many Desolations (though it should be noted, after Ahrietiam... Was that a factor?).

And yet, by Odium's own statement, the first thing he'd do after being released by Dalinar - if he'd do it - was to "see to Cultivation's death". So while he was able to splinter Honor shortly before the Recreance, such that Honor "was dying" and unable to "support" that generation of Radiants in holding to their oaths, he hasn't been able to do that with Cultivation, but feels he could do so once released.

The Honorpact was broken at Ahrietiam and it seems like, with his support, the singers could finally retake Roshar from humankind. But, as Dalinar said, this would not release him from the Rosharan system. When he first turns down Dalinar's offer of a contest of champions, Odium comments, "I need not take on such a risk, for I know that you... will free me." He refers here to engineering Dalinar's moment at Thaylen Fields in the future, which Dalinar is oblivious to.

Later, at Thaylen Fields, Dalinar says to Odium, "Killing us won't free you, will it? You could rule us or destroy us, but either way, you'd still be trapped here. ... A contest. Your freedom if you win, our lives if humans win." Odium agrees this time, because he was sure that Dalinar would succumb to the Thrill and fall to become his pawn - and of course, immediately release him ("Be careful what you request... As Bondsmith, you can offer this deal. But is this truly what you wish of me?")

He neither refutes or accepts Dalinar's statement - that if he rules or destroys humanity with the singers, he's still locked to Roshar.

For all we know, Odium's long game is to use the singers to push Rosharan humanity to the brink, and then to offer a Taravangian like deal to spare the remnant for his release. "Either my singers wipe you out, or you free me, I kill Cultivation and clean up the mess of over-invested spren hanging around here, and leave you alone" (on Ashyn, Braize, or some other world, leaving Roshar to the singers as he's probably promised them).

A dying, possibly raving Honor recorded this message for a future Bondsmith: "Vex Odium. Convince him he can lose." But never said how.

Edited October 7, 2020 by robardin

[Govir]

 

19 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Doesn't look like any other kind of surge though. Surges humans and singers uses aren't exactly the same, his inability of transport physical objects other than himself doesn't mean he was not performing transportation

I still argue they are using Division. The idea being they are destroying a large portion of their body in order to eject from it, then traveling as a spren and reforming using Voidlight healing. My reasoning for this is because Kaladin still sees the creature while it is "teleporting".

18 hours ago, Nameless said:

Shallan is already of the fourth ideal, I am absolutely certain that I saw a WoB saying that she was one ahead of Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance. I can't seem to find it now though.

 

Quote

 

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

 

 

18 hours ago, Experience said:

Does it change it to stormlight? Or just raw investiture that she uses with her bond?

Does a Larkin (or whatever Nale used) eat stormlight, or investiture? We see Lift get sucked of power in Edgedancer.

15 hours ago, Rainier said:

He killed at least one Thunderclast.

We're also getting Vasher, either next week, or in two other preview chapters. I'm hoping when we see him it's because of Nightblood.

How do you know we're getting Vasher in the preview chapters?

[Diomedes]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What is there to lose? Except for Taravangian as an informer, not much. And they are unlikely to keep him much lonfger anyway. They do not even need to take Urithiru. Damaging it beyond repair would do the job.

They could reveal all the secrets of the Tower to the Radiants. Knowing King T. is on Odium`s side is a big deal. 

 

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is very much in conflict with the discussion he had with Taravangian in Oathbringer. He promised to let live the people of Kharbranth. We must conclude that he has changed his mind.

That conversation lacks context, there is so much we do not know about the Diagram. Odium, however, wants to recruit as many Humans as possible. He does not seem to have a preference for his tools. 

[+Bliev she/her]

5 minutes ago, Govir said:

How do you know we're getting Vasher in the preview chapters?

Last night Brandon said as much on Reddit! To wait for next week's chapter to see more of him. yay!

Quote

Thank you so much for this, really looking forward to Dawnshard and RoW! If you don't mind me asking, will Zahel be in the book at all, whether he's just being grouchy or doing something cosmere relevant?

 

mistborn

 

Ask that question again next week.

Also:

 

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

For all we know, Odium's long game is to use the singers to push Rosharan humanity to the brink, and then to offer a Taravangian like deal to spare the remnant for his release. "Either my singers wipe you out, or you free me, I kill Cultivation and clean up the mess of over-invested spren hanging around here, and leave you alone" (on Ashyn, Braize, or some other world, leaving Roshar to the singers as he's probably promised them).

Yes, this is my read too. Why would a god like Odium care about something as unimportant as mortals, whether human or singer? he doesn't. they are tools. and his end game is freedom and consolidation of power. He made a mistake and got himself stuck, and now he needs to be free, to kill Cultivation, and to be about his business. This has ever been his goal. Which reminds me of the power plays in Mistborn E1:

Spoiler

Vin and Elend and Kelsier thought they were playing a game of dictators and politics, but they were merely pawns in a much bigger game regarding the very nature of humanity and power. They got mixed up in a dispute between gods, and they almost didn't realize it before it was too late. 

I think this is probably similar.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Bliev