Kaladin, Leshwi and Venli

[Realmatic Shadow]

21 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

On 17/09/2020 at 4:20 AM, Kuram said:

10:16 ratio

HMMM

Interesting ratio...

It seems kind of... perfect, doesn't it.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, Gilphon said:

That's not how ignoring technicalities works and you know it. A year is a year.

I personally don't think this pairing will happen, but to everyone concerned about years and ages: WOB has stated outright that a year on Roshar is longer than a year on Earth. 

Brandon has said that even though Kaladin is 19 in Way of Kings, he would be in his mid-twenties on Earth.  A year on one planet obviously does not equal the same amount of time as a year spent on another planet.  For example, 26 years on Earth is the same amount of time as 14 Mars years.  Venli is no more child than Shallan or Adolin.

[Rai]

Um, no... I keep seeing people make this mistake, but one Rosharan year is 1.1 Earth years, because even though their years are longer they also have shorter days, so it rounds out a bit. The difference isn't thaaaaaaat great, he still wouldn't have been in his mid-twenties on Earth during TWoK lol. (IMO, focusing on this distinction is pretty pointless anyways, because the characters always act like the age they're given in the books or their Rosharan year). 

[Gilphon]

If you convert from Rosharan years to earth years, Venli is 15 or 16 and Kaladin is 24 or 25. It's a detail that increases the age gap between the two. 

[The One Ring]

Okay, so I'm going to ignore the difference between Rosharan years and Earth years because as Rai has pointed out, human characters always act like the age they are given. That being said, I think Kaladin+Venli still won't work out, at least not for long. The two mature at different rate, and at some point, the gap would have been too great. I also believe many human (including Kaladin himself) would find Kaladin dating a 14-year-old to be inappropriate, even if Venli doesn't feel that young. And hiding her age also wouldn't work.

 

The ship might still work out, they might find a way to deal with it all, but I think it's unlikely.

[+Oltux72]

On 15.9.2020 at 8:18 PM, Harbour said:

Bonus point if pro-Odium Fused will ambush the whole meeting, killing Leshwi for betrayal, and Kaladin and Venli will survive and cooperate after that.

How? And why? Leshwi is basically immortal while the Everstorm blows. You need to report her to Odium to cancel her immortality.

On 16.9.2020 at 10:53 PM, Karger said:

I completely understand where you are coming from.  However cultural conditioning makes me, and probably Kaladin as well, think that the relationship is inappropriate.

That is a tall assumption. We know nothing about Alethi customs in that regard, other than nobody thinking Shallan is at a normal age to wed and she was most likely 17 (Rosharan years) when bethroated.

9 hours ago, The One Ring said:

The ship might still work out, they might find a way to deal with it all, but I think it's unlikely.

We are talking about another species, which does not do long-term pair bonding.

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is a tall assumption. We know nothing about Alethi customs in that regard, other than nobody thinking Shallan is at a normal age to wed and she was most likely 17 (Rosharan years) when bethroated.

In WoKp Dalinar is actually betrothed to a much younger woman and finds the entire practice dishonorable.  I believe Shallan was at least 21 when she got married to Adolin who was max 24(earth years).  We don't really see any married couples who have large differences in age in alethkar which I think is noteworthy.

[+Oltux72]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

In WoKp Dalinar is actually betrothed to a much younger woman and finds the entire practice dishonorable.

There the difference was about 40 years and the bride not really past puberty. And it was his personal opinion. Apparently not scandalous enough that he dared say no.

Quote

  I believe Shallan was at least 21 when she got married to Adolin who was max 24(earth years).  We don't really see any married couples who have large differences in age in alethkar which I think is noteworthy.

According to the coppermind Shallan is born 1156. She married on Nanishah 1174. That is exactly at the 20% mark of that year. That gives us a 80% likelihood that she was 17 years old when she married. In fact her birthday is not mentioned in Oathbringer. The preponderance of evidence was on her being 17. Her bethrotal was earlier, obviously, giving us a good chance that she was bethroated at age 16. And nobody mentioned that the bride is young.

So, no, it does not look like Alethi think that an early marriage is a bad idea.

EDIT:
Adolin is born in 1150. THat makes him 23 at marriage, giving a 6 year difference to his wife. Kaladin is born in late 1153. Meaning that in Rhythm of War he is 21. That would give him about 7 years to Venli.
I still think this is fanciful, but not due to age.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Oltux72
too lazy to calculate for Adolin and Kaladin

[Zea mays]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

In WoKp Dalinar is actually betrothed to a much younger woman and finds the entire practice dishonorable.  I believe Shallan was at least 21 when she got married to Adolin who was max 24(earth years).  We don't really see any married couples who have large differences in age in alethkar which I think is noteworthy.

We saw Roshone and Laral. The only person who ever voiced an objection to that union was Kaladin. When he did, his parents told him that those kind of marriages are not uncommon among Lighteyes.

[Karger]

19 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

We saw Roshone and Laral. The only person who ever voiced an objection to that union was Kaladin. When he did, his parents told him that those kind of marriages are not uncommon among Lighteyes.

That is a fair point I forgot but note Kaladin's reaction as well as the way Lirin explains it.  The massive age difference is a thing nobles sometimes do for political reasons not something that Kaladin is particularly comfortable with. 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Karger

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That is a fair point I forgot but note Kaladin's reaction as well as the way Lirin explains it.  The massive age difference is a thing nobles sometimes do for political reasons not something that Kaladin is particularly comfortable with. 

Kaladin is not comfortable with a lot of things in Alethkar. Taking that as an indication of how things are done in the Vorin lands is daring.

[Karger]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Kaladin is not comfortable with a lot of things in Alethkar. Taking that as an indication of how things are done in the Vorin lands is daring.

I am not.  That is your assumption.  I merely am pointing out that Kaladin personally has problems with it and those probably came from the cultural conditioning of his upbringing as reasons why this relationship is unlikely.

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not.  That is your assumption. 

Sorry. It wasn't guided at you.

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I merely am pointing out that Kaladin personally has problems with it and those probably came from the cultural conditioning of his upbringing as reasons why this relationship is unlikely.

Well, he remarked on his would-be girlfriend.

[Honorless]

Okay, so with the latest chapter, Leshwi is clearly at the very least fascinated by Kaladin and starting to get attached to him. She enjoyed their spars and gave off the impression of teaching him and now protected him from being hunted, or so it seems. She's also very sane and quite sympathetic to Venli. She's gotten attached to two of the 10 main backstory characters, as something of a mentor figure (hopefully she doesn't pay for it like tvtropes says she might). I think Leshwi is going to be among the ones who defect from Odium, possibly within this very book or the next.

[snoopy]

Quote

Timbre pulsed inside her.

“Opportunity?” Venli said. “What kind of opportunity?”

Timbre pulsed again.

“I thought you hated the human Radiants,” Venli whispered. “Who cares if we’re going to find them at the tower?”

Timbre pulsed decisively. She had a point. Perhaps the humans could train Venli. Maybe she could capture one of their Radiants and make them teach her.

I think there will be a singer/human relationship this book.  However, now I am thinking it could be Venli + whoever she captures to train her.    Who are the single Bridge 4 members besides Kaladin?  I don't think Kaladin would be captured, though that would be a cool plot twist. On the flip side, Venli is very young.

Edited October 6, 2020 by snoopy

[Harbour]

I can easily see it to be Renarin. Their powers are fun to explore, they both are teens and scholar. That can be interesting to see.

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

I can easily see it to be Renarin. Their powers are fun to explore, they both are teens and scholar. That can be interesting to see.

And Renarin's Spren is corrupted by Sja-Anat, which may make a reasonable cover story for him if he gets found with Venli by the Fused/Regals.

[Zelly]

So Leshwi was not even on my radar for Kaladin.

Until chapter 14. Halfway through it I was like, "OH NO I'm shipping them in my head!"  So I guess I'm curious to see where the ship goes, assuming there's one there at all.

Or if it's a ship full of hidden explosives.

Fun either way!

Edited October 10, 2020 by Zelly

[+robardin]

I like the idea of Leshwi surging away from Odium - gravitating, if you will - towards the Windrunners and a Venli-like alignment of Free Singers For A Better Roshar, and I can see that her admiration or respect for Kaladin is a big part of that.

But full on shipping the two of them, I dunno. It's the reverse scenario of a Kaladin/Venli pairing but even more extreme. I mean, Leshwi is thousands of years old. And she's spent the vast majority of that time killing and being killed by Radiants. (And by Moash. Storm him, but that was still an impressive act. That he owed to Kaladin, like everything else that didn't end with him dead by a Parshendi arrow on a Sadeas bridge run. Storming traitor... But I digress.)

 

By the way, Chapter 14 also shows that Vyre has been learning to speak the singer language, albeit with a "thick accent". Which language was apparently different from what Venli spoke as a "listener"; she referred to translating things into "the ancient language" for the Fused after taking on Envoyform.

What is the ancient language? The so-called Dawnchant, right? And would Venli lose command of it if she were to take on another form?

[+Oltux72]

On 7.10.2020 at 0:40 AM, Harbour said:

I can easily see it to be Renarin. Their powers are fun to explore, they both are teens and scholar. That can be interesting to see.

Somebody has to be practical. How do you imprison a Shard Bearer? Even if she can get her hands on a Nullifier fabrial, she will still have to allow for demonstrations. A Radiant of the 2nd ideal who cannot fly would be much simpler, so a junior Edgedancer.

[I Am A Fish]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody has to be practical. How do you imprison a Shard Bearer? Even if she can get her hands on a Nullifier fabrial, she will still have to allow for demonstrations. A Radiant of the 2nd ideal who cannot fly would be much simpler, so a junior Edgedancer.

Renarin can't fly...

[+Oltux72]

11 minutes ago, I Am A Fish said:

Renarin can't fly...

But he has a Blade.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:05 PM, Gilphon said:

If you convert from Rosharan years to earth years, Venli is 15 or 16 and Kaladin is 24 or 25. It's a detail that increases the age gap between the two. 

Hasn’t Venli already been ‘married’ once already? She’s a different species, and probably has a shorter ‘childhood’. They certainly seem to have lower birth rates... 

[Ramona Tehradin]

Kaladin and Venli can be partners in bridging the gap between their cultures. I absolutely cannot imagine them being involved romantically within two books. And I also do not find Leshwi as a suitable choice. In fact, ever since Shallan made her decision- I wanted Kaladin to remain single for both the arcs. There are other things instead of rooting over a relationship which could potentially enstate an internal crisis. 

- Venli is so glory-centric and self-absorbed most of times which is enough to fall out with anybody. That does not mean I don't like her. I like her but I don't want her with Kaladin of all people who is the most selfless character we've witnessed yet (not forgetting you Taln). 

-Leshwi is interested in Kaladin because again, didn't Venli state that in order to win over her, you have to kill her? And Kal did that. Probably many times by now. I would put a cent that she has an insider-Pursuer complex screaming to take revenge in the most 'honorable' fashion. Besides, she wants to eradicate humans and fade in time. No second to spare for budding romance with a 21-year old mythical-reputed Windrunner. 

Kaladin is my favorite character in whole Cosmere, and I want him to remain etched to his duties and explore different worlds. Probably meet Kelsier and give him a punch. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by RamonaTehradin

[Stormfather's Beard]

Can't quite believe no-one has mentioned that Venli, when not in mate-form does not have sexual urges and whilst she maintains her current form is unlikely to start. By the same token, it seems unlikely that the fused have these urges either. Clearly Venli is not a-romantic, but she does find sex repulsive (when not in mate-form anyway), as did Eshonai. She had a partner tho that she had been in a sexual relationship with previously but clearly the concept of "once-mate" is very different to "marriage" in the Listener society.

So we aren't going to have an "eyes meeting across a crowded room" moment for Venli and Kaladin. Any relationship would need to start with friendship. Whilst I could see mutual respect forming, I don't think Kaladin is easily going to forgive her for causing the everstorm to get closer than that. On top of that any "chemistry" people are seeing between him and Leshwi (which I *don't* see) is at best one sided on Kaladin's part (and we get no indication he thinks that way) because it is so unlikely that Leshwi would feel sexual desire for him right now. And even if she were to turn from Odium, we don't know if she would survive that, and even if she did, we can only guess how many humans she has killed which I think Kaladin might have an issue with. He can respect her, but love? What is the basis for this relationship? Shared ideals? If that's the only criterion then why did the relationship with Lyn fail? He's looking for something more and there is no reason to think Leshwi or Venli are the answer at this point.

This is one of many examples where Kaladin simply gets paired with anything in a metaphorical skirt.