Moash

[AonEne he/him]

Obviously there is such a thing as morality, I've never met anyone who believes otherwise. And I believe good and evil are real too (partially for religious reasons). It's just that we're all different people and opinions on what is good and what is evil will differ, so let's all be polite, that's all I'm asking.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Are you honestly saying murder isn't evil? Please explain.

Is Adolin evil?

I'm not stating my opinion here--I'm just asking.

Edited May 7, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Is Adolin evil?

Adolin's father was being threatened, so no. If he had killed Sadeas at any of the other times he wanted to then yes he would be. I have also said Adolin should be more upset by that on another topic. Why did Moash kill Jezrien? Because he was asked to.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Frustration

[Nellac]

16 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Is Adolin evil?

No. I would compare the difference between Elhokar and Sadeas as the difference between manslaughter and murder. For those unfamiliar with the terms, I don't know if they're used outside the U.S., manslaughter is unintentionally killing someone while murder is purposefully killing someone. Elhokar accidentally killed Moash's grandparents because of his incompetence. This is nowhere near how evil Sadeas is purposefully sending out Bridgemen to their deaths. Elhokar should face some form of punishment for what he did, but he doesn't deserve the death sentence. Sadeas on the other hand definately deserves the death sentence for what he has done. That is why Adolin is good and Moash is evil.

[NameIess]

In my head-canon, Moash will continue down his current path until he has to fight Kaladin, in a situation where neither of them can afford to back down. During the battle there are a few options: 1. Kaladin doesn't want to kill Moash, but eventually accepts that Moash has made his decision, and that he has to kill him. 2. Moash fights Kaladin, and Kaladin defeats him but refuses to kill him, capturing him instead. 3. Kaladin refuses to kill Moash, and because of this, perhaps with help form the Fused or Nale, Moash defeats him. Moash then doesn't want to kill him, but the fused/Nale/Odium insist, causing Moash to realize how far he's fallen and betraying Odium to help Kaladin. 4. Kaladin refuses to kill Moash, and Moash kills him. Then Moash realizes that he's just killed the only man whom he classified as good, and betrays Odium, joining Dalinar.

[Chiberty]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Adolin's father was being threatened, so no. If he had killed Sadeas at any of the other times he wanted to then yes he would be. I have also said Adolin should be more upset by that on another topic. Why did Moash kill Jezrien? Because he was asked to.

So, you had given that question about murder in response to bring asked why you thought Moash was evil. In your views here on Adolin, you provide an answer to your question that is contrary to what the question implied your answer was. Asking if someone "honestly [thinks] that murder isn't evil" implies that you think that it is evil. However, you do not believe that Adolin murdering Sadeas was evil, as it is justified in your opinion. This implies that your actual thoughts on the morality of murder is that it is evil unless it is for a good cause. Of course, I could be wrong about what you're saying, and please correct me if I am. On the other hand, if I am correct about what you are saying, I believe that you just provided an explanation for how somebody could consider murder not to be evil on your own.

[Frustration]

32 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

So, you had given that question about murder in response to bring asked why you thought Moash was evil. In your views here on Adolin, you provide an answer to your question that is contrary to what the question implied your answer was. Asking if someone "honestly [thinks] that murder isn't evil" implies that you think that it is evil. However, you do not believe that Adolin murdering Sadeas was evil, as it is justified in your opinion. This implies that your actual thoughts on the morality of murder is that it is evil unless it is for a good cause. Of course, I could be wrong about what you're saying, and please correct me if I am. On the other hand, if I am correct about what you are saying, I believe that you just provided an explanation for how somebody could consider murder not to be evil on your own.

I'm saying what Adolin did was not 'murder' though that is a term I have used for it in the past. I don't know what to call it as it's not 'self defense' but he is protecting his father, no more murder than attacking thugs who are talking about killing people, he did bring it too far by killing Sadeas, and I would like for him to be at least a little upset that he did it, so he was right to confront Sadeas but killing him was too far, I'm rabbling aren't I?

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Nellac said:

No. I would compare the difference between Elhokar and Sadeas as the difference between manslaughter and murder. For those unfamiliar with the terms, I don't know if they're used outside the U.S., manslaughter is unintentionally killing someone while murder is purposefully killing someone. Elhokar accidentally killed Moash's grandparents because of his incompetence. This is nowhere near how evil Sadeas is purposefully sending out Bridgemen to their deaths. Elhokar should face some form of punishment for what he did, but he doesn't deserve the death sentence. Sadeas on the other hand definately deserves the death sentence for what he has done. That is why Adolin is good and Moash is evil.

But neither Moash nor Adolin were authorized by law to carry out punishment.  This was not justice, so it doesn't matter if Elhokar or Sadeas were guilty of a crime.  In a court of law, you can't get your crime reduced from murder to manslaughter by proving that your victim was guilty of an unrelated crime.  If anything, Adolin's killing of Sadeas was more murder than Moash's killing of Elhokar.  Moash acted more honorably than Adolin, despite not even being on the side of Honor.

Adolin killed Sadeas in cold blood and without giving him a chance to defend himself or even letting Sadeas know he was going to try anything violent.  He also did it on his own - he was not ordered to do it and in fact Dalinar did not approve of his actions.  That's murder in my opinion, even if Sadeas was deserving of death it is still murder to kill him in cold blood and outside the legal system.

In Moash's case there were significant differences.  First, when he killed Elhokar he faced him head on and did it openly.  Elhokar at least had a chance to fight or run away and he had Kaladin around to defend him.  They were also on opposite sides in a war.  This makes his killing of Elhokar more like a battle than a murder.  Also, he was ordered to kill both Elhokar and Jezrien making it less his own personal decision.  What Moash did was a lot more like manslaughter or maybe some type of war crime.  

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Moash acted more honorably than Adolin, despite not even being on the side of Honor.  

Moash killing Elhokar was an act of war not murder Jezrien is a different story, the Herald was defenseless and couldn't have done anything if he wanted to. Additionally he was asked not ordered, in war, on the field of battle killing is the purpose, and not a crime for a reason, killing a prisoner of war, that is a whole different field.

[Aminar]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Moash killing Elhokar was an act of war not murder Jezrien is a different story, the Herald was defenseless and couldn't have done anything if he wanted to. Additionally he was asked not ordered, in war, on the field of battle killing is the purpose, and not a crime for a reason, killing a prisoner of war, that is a whole different field.

Also Treason. He did kill his rightful ruler after defecting to the other side in a conflict. Not his first Treasonous act, but it's the most defining one. Your comparing apples and oranges here guys. Adolin killed a man who had just said he was going to kill his father. Moash betrayed his nation. Their non-comparable. Neither is right. How they respond to doing those things is the important part. Adolin fessed up. He was willing to face punishment(eventually) and the appropriate legal authorities(who admittedly have a conflict of interest) decided not to punish him. Moash has so far continued his treachery and moved on to what amounts to deicide. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Aminar

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Also Treason. He did kill his rightful ruler after defecting to the other side in a conflict. Not his first Treasonous act, but it's the most defining one. Your comparing apples and oranges here guys. Adolin killed a man who had just said he was going to kill his father. Moash betrayed his nation. Their non-comparable. Neither is right. How they respond to doing those things is the important part. Adolin fessed up. He was willing to face punishment(eventually) and the appropriate legal authorities(who admittedly have a conflict of interest) decided not to punish him. Moash has so far continued his treachery and moved on to what amounts to deicide. 

Now we're getting into a law vs. morality direction which is a whole other rabbit whole.

[agrabes]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Moash killing Elhokar was an act of war not murder Jezrien is a different story, the Herald was defenseless and couldn't have done anything if he wanted to. Additionally he was asked not ordered, in war, on the field of battle killing is the purpose, and not a crime for a reason, killing a prisoner of war, that is a whole different field.

I think being asked by a superior is equivalent to being ordered.  Still, you're right that killing Jezrien would be (at best) a war crime.  Moash isn't squeaky clean, but in terms of the two people he killed I personally see those killings as less morally wrong than Adolin's murder of Sadeas.  

10 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Also Treason. He did kill his rightful ruler after defecting to the other side in a conflict. Not his first Treasonous act, but it's the most defining one. Your comparing apples and oranges here guys. Adolin killed a man who had just said he was going to kill his father. Moash betrayed his nation. Their non-comparable. Neither is right. How they respond to doing those things is the important part. Adolin fessed up. He was willing to face punishment(eventually) and the appropriate legal authorities(who admittedly have a conflict of interest) decided not to punish him. Moash has so far continued his treachery and moved on to what amounts to deicide. 

Adolin killed a man who said he would remain a bitter political rival of his father.  He had plenty of other options to deal with the threat.  Sadeas was not going to murder Dalinar, he was going to work to cause him to lose political power, put him in risky battles, etc.  Dalinar knew this and was prepared to deal with it.  Adolin chose to murder Sadeas because he felt that was the easiest way to deal the the problem.

Moash tried to do what he thought was the patriotic duty of removing his nation's incompetent leader.  That attempted assassination was probably the most dishonorable thing he did.  When that failed, he defected from his nation.  He didn't sneak around about it, he didn't play a double agent.  He simply changed sides after being continually let down and betrayed by the people who were supposed to be protecting him.  A lesser crime than Adolin's murder, in my view.

Moash is basically a tragic character and a foil for Kaladin.  If he'd been stronger and better, he could have ended up like Kaladin.  And conversely, if Kaladin had given in to despair he could have ended up like Moash.  Part of why I see Adolin's actions as worse than Moash's actions is because Adolin had the power and resources to solve his problem with Sadeas another way.  Moash never had the power or resources to choose his own path.  He could choose to live with the injustice done against him and his family in a legal system that failed him or take an action.  He was left with two bad choices and the tragic thing is that he chose the wrong one.

[Aminar]

4 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think being asked by a superior is equivalent to being ordered.  Still, you're right that killing Jezrien would be (at best) a war crime.  Moash isn't squeaky clean, but in terms of the two people he killed I personally see those killings as less morally wrong than Adolin's murder of Sadeas.  

Adolin killed a man who said he would remain a bitter political rival of his father.  He had plenty of other options to deal with the threat.  Sadeas was not going to murder Dalinar, he was going to work to cause him to lose political power, put him in risky battles, etc.  Dalinar knew this and was prepared to deal with it.  Adolin chose to murder Sadeas because he felt that was the easiest way to deal the the problem.

Moash tried to do what he thought was the patriotic duty of removing his nation's incompetent leader.  That attempted assassination was probably the most dishonorable thing he did.  When that failed, he defected from his nation.  He didn't sneak around about it, he didn't play a double agent.  He simply changed sides after being continually let down and betrayed by the people who were supposed to be protecting him.  A lesser crime than Adolin's murder, in my view.

Moash is basically a tragic character and a foil for Kaladin.  If he'd been stronger and better, he could have ended up like Kaladin.  And conversely, if Kaladin had given in to despair he could have ended up like Moash.  Part of why I see Adolin's actions as worse than Moash's actions is because Adolin had the power and resources to solve his problem with Sadeas another way.  Moash never had the power or resources to choose his own path.  He could choose to live with the injustice done against him and his family in a legal system that failed him or take an action.  He was left with two bad choices and the tragic thing is that he chose the wrong one.

It's him or me after a comment about old whitespines dueling for a kingdom is not a statement about political power. It's saying one of them will die and Sadeas will not hesitate to kill Dalinar. He's tried to kill Dalinar and Adolin in the past. He's making it clear he will do so again. Adolin knows it. Sadeas knows it. Hiding behind imprecise language doesn't lessen the lethality of the threat.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Aminar

[agrabes]

Just now, Aminar said:

It's him or me after a comment about whitespines is not a statement about political power. It's saying one of them will die and Sadeas will not hesitate to kill Dalinar. He's tried to kill Dalinar and Adolin in the past. He's making it clear he will do so again. Adolin knows it. Sadeas knows it. Hiding behind imprecise language doesn't lessen the lethality of the threat.

That's not true. You're implying that this was a new or different threat from how Sadeas had already acted since WoK.  Sadeas was always working to either kill Dalinar or remove him from political power and both Dalinar and Adolin knew this for a long time by the end of WoR.

Sadeas did this more than once in the first two books - he worked to undermine him politically and put him in bad positions on the field of battle where he might die.  That is fair game in the way the Alethi play power politics.  The only thing that changed at the end of WoR was that Sadeas made the mistake of saying this directly to taunt Adolin when they were alone in Urithiru.  Sadeas believed that Adolin was too honorable to murder him in cold blood, but he was wrong.  

Dalinar fully understood this and accepted the risk.  Even after being betrayed more than once, Dalinar still hoped he could bring Sadeas around and was willing to match him strength for strength and defeat him fair and square.  He also knew that Sadeas respected the Alethi customs enough to not have him assassinated.  It was Adolin who decided, on his own, that Dalinar shouldn't take that risk anymore and made the choice to murder Sadeas.

[Raphaborn]

21 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think being asked by a superior is equivalent to being ordered.  Still, you're right that killing Jezrien would be (at best) a war crime.  Moash isn't squeaky clean, but in terms of the two people he killed I personally see those killings as less morally wrong than Adolin's murder of Sadeas.  

Adolin killed a man who said he would remain a bitter political rival of his father.  He had plenty of other options to deal with the threat.  Sadeas was not going to murder Dalinar, he was going to work to cause him to lose political power, put him in risky battles, etc.  Dalinar knew this and was prepared to deal with it.  Adolin chose to murder Sadeas because he felt that was the easiest way to deal the the problem.

Moash tried to do what he thought was the patriotic duty of removing his nation's incompetent leader.  That attempted assassination was probably the most dishonorable thing he did.  When that failed, he defected from his nation.  He didn't sneak around about it, he didn't play a double agent.  He simply changed sides after being continually let down and betrayed by the people who were supposed to be protecting him.  A lesser crime than Adolin's murder, in my view.

Moash is basically a tragic character and a foil for Kaladin.  If he'd been stronger and better, he could have ended up like Kaladin.  And conversely, if Kaladin had given in to despair he could have ended up like Moash.  Part of why I see Adolin's actions as worse than Moash's actions is because Adolin had the power and resources to solve his problem with Sadeas another way.  Moash never had the power or resources to choose his own path.  He could choose to live with the injustice done against him and his family in a legal system that failed him or take an action.  He was left with two bad choices and the tragic thing is that he chose the wrong one.

Sadeas tried to kill Dalinar more than once, and suggested betrayal even to the throne itself. Sadeas was being so stingy that he would ignore the threat to the world just out of a desire for power for himself, and would continue to undermine Dalinar even after discovering he was right (who already had enormous difficulties in getting help from other kingdoms in the fight against the Voidbringers). Comparing him to the person who was willing to kill his own friend in exchange for revenge, just to keep his position and status safe afterwards, is just senseless.

Storm Moash.

[Raphaborn]

19 minutes ago, agrabes said:

That's not true. You're implying that this was a new or different threat from how Sadeas had already acted since WoK.  Sadeas was always working to either kill Dalinar or remove him from political power and both Dalinar and Adolin knew this for a long time by the end of WoR.

Sadeas did this more than once in the first two books - he worked to undermine him politically and put him in bad positions on the field of battle where he might die.  That is fair game in the way the Alethi play power politics.  The only thing that changed at the end of WoR was that Sadeas made the mistake of saying this directly to taunt Adolin when they were alone in Urithiru.  Sadeas believed that Adolin was too honorable to murder him in cold blood, but he was wrong.  

Dalinar fully understood this and accepted the risk.  Even after being betrayed more than once, Dalinar still hoped he could bring Sadeas around and was willing to match him strength for strength and defeat him fair and square.  He also knew that Sadeas respected the Alethi customs enough to not have him assassinated.  It was Adolin who decided, on his own, that Dalinar shouldn't take that risk anymore and made the choice to murder Sadeas.

Sadeas* tried to kill Dalinar through sabotage, and it almost killed Kaladin and Shallan if you forgot. It was no longer about war games.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Raphaborn

[agrabes]

13 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Sadeas tried to kill Dalinar more than once, and suggested betrayal even to the throne itself. Sadeas was being so stingy that he would ignore the threat to the world just out of a desire for power for himself, and would continue to undermine Dalinar even after discovering he was right (who already had enormous difficulties in getting help from other kingdoms in the fight against the Voidbringers). Comparing him to the person who was willing to kill his own friend in exchange for revenge, just to keep his position and status safe afterwards, is just senseless.

Storm Moash.

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here.  I think you're saying Adolin was justified to murder Sadeas because Sadeas was a bad person?

I don't personally subscribe to your Ends Justify the Means morality here.  Sadeas deserved death, but Adolin still murdered him in a dishonorable way.  Elhokar and Jezrien also deserved death or severe punishment.  Elhokar had allowed many people to die or be falsely imprisoned through negligence.  Jezrien abandoned his oaths, leaving Taln to four thousand years of torture.  He essentially committed treason against the entire human race.  But, Moash doesn't get to use the excuse that they are guilty - he still killed them.  

You second part isn't very clear though.  Is "the person" you're referencing Moash?  Moash wasn't willing to kill his friend.  He has not once tried to kill Kaladin.  He's wanted to kill people that Kaladin wanted to protect, and he fought Kaladin in the failed assassination attempt but he's never tried to kill Kaladin himself.  He intentionally spared Kaladin in that failed assassination attempt and didn't fight him in the battle where he does kill Elhokar.  He's also not been motivated by his own position or status, he's been willing to throw that away the entire time.  In fact, he did throw away his status by attempting to murder the king.

 

16 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Dalinar tried to kill Dalinar through sabotage, and it almost killed Kaladin and Shallan if you forgot. It was no longer about war games.

I did forget this, but looking it up in my opinion it only reinforces my argument.  Dalinar knew that Sadeas would even try assassination and was willing to take the risk.  He would have challenged Sadeas through proper channels.  Adolin already knew all this and already knew it was wrong to murder Sadeas.  He chose to do it anyway.

[NameIess]

16 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You second part isn't very clear though.  Is "the person" you're referencing Moash?  Moash wasn't willing to kill his friend.  He has not once tried to kill Kaladin.  He's wanted to kill people that Kaladin wanted to protect, and he fought Kaladin in the failed assassination attempt but he's never tried to kill Kaladin himself.  He intentionally spared Kaladin in that failed assassination attempt and didn't fight him in the battle where he does kill Elhokar.  He's also not been motivated by his own position or status, he's been willing to throw that away the entire time.  In fact, he did throw away his status by attempting to murder the king.

Moash punched Kaladin in the chest, and mortally wounded him, then pulled out his Shardblade and prepared to kill Kaladin. He tried to kill Kaladin.

[agrabes]

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Moash punched Kaladin in the chest, and mortally wounded him, then pulled out his Shardblade and prepared to kill Kaladin. He tried to kill Kaladin.

That's not totally accurate.  In Chapter 87 Moash thinks to himself that he had tried to Kaladin while he is wallowing in his guilt over what he did, but his actions do not show that he attempted to kill Kaladin. 

I copied the relevant passage (Ch. 84 WoR).  Moash punched Kaladin in the chest with the intent of disabling him so that he could spare Kaladin.  He even says he did not intend to hit that hard - he's inexperienced with the plate so this is likely sincere.  He repeatedly tries to spare Kaladin, but Kaladin keeps getting back up and trying to fight him.  Graves tells him he has to do it, but he still hesitates.  He draws his shardblade, but never makes an attack.  Then, once Kaladin swears his third oath he runs.

He doesn't want to kill Kaladin and never (intentionally) tries to strike a killing blow.  I'll also point out that Kaladin attacks him first.  If Kaladin hadn't sworn his third oath, we don't know if Moash would have been willing or able to actually kill him or not.  I personally think not - he was extremely upset over what he'd done and clearly did not want to kill him.

Quote

Moash stepped forward, but did not summon his shardblade.

Kaladin struck with his spear, but it was futile.  He'd used what strength he had to merely remain upright.  His spear glanced off Moash's helm, and the former bridgeman slapped a fist down on the weapon, shattering the wood.

Kaladin lurched to a stop, but Moash wasn't done.  He stepped forward and slammed an armored fist into Kaladin's gut.

[...]

"Storms."  Moash's voice was distant.  "That was a harder blow than I intended."

[...]

"Finish this, Moash," Graves said.

"Storms," Moash said.  "There's no need.  Look at him.  He can't fight back."

[...]

"I'm sorry, Kal," Moash said, stepping forward.  "I should have made it quick at the start."

[...]

A Shardblade appeared in Moash's hands.

[...]

Moash hesitated.

[...]

Moash looked from Graves back at Kaladin.  Then he ran, Plate clinking as he turned and dashed down the corridor and disappeared.

 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

He doesn't want to kill Kaladin and never (intentionally) tries to strike a killing blow.  I'll also point out that Kaladin attacks him first.  If Kaladin hadn't sworn his third oath, we don't know if Moash would have been willing or able to actually kill him or not.  I personally think not - he was extremely upset over what he'd done and clearly did not want to kill him.

I think he would have. Agree to disagree?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

I don't personally subscribe to your Ends Justify the Means morality here.  Sadeas deserved death, but Adolin still murdered him in a dishonorable way.  Elhokar and Jezrien also deserved death or severe punishment.  Elhokar had allowed many people to die or be falsely imprisoned through negligence.  Jezrien abandoned his oaths, leaving Taln to four thousand years of torture.  He essentially committed treason against the entire human race.

I agree that ends do not justify the means, but I have to contend that Jezrien doesn't deserve punishment, if he were just tired of pain but cognitively functional that would be a different story, but his brain is coming apart at the seems and we have from Brandon that he is insane. So, there's my two cents.

[Raphaborn]

6 hours ago, agrabes said:

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here.  I think you're saying Adolin was justified to murder Sadeas because Sadeas was a bad person?

I don't personally subscribe to your Ends Justify the Means morality here.  Sadeas deserved death, but Adolin still murdered him in a dishonorable way.  Elhokar and Jezrien also deserved death or severe punishment.  Elhokar had allowed many people to die or be falsely imprisoned through negligence.  Jezrien abandoned his oaths, leaving Taln to four thousand years of torture.  He essentially committed treason against the entire human race.  But, Moash doesn't get to use the excuse that they are guilty - he still killed them.  

You second part isn't very clear though.  Is "the person" you're referencing Moash?  Moash wasn't willing to kill his friend.  He has not once tried to kill Kaladin.  He's wanted to kill people that Kaladin wanted to protect, and he fought Kaladin in the failed assassination attempt but he's never tried to kill Kaladin himself.  He intentionally spared Kaladin in that failed assassination attempt and didn't fight him in the battle where he does kill Elhokar.  He's also not been motivated by his own position or status, he's been willing to throw that away the entire time.  In fact, he did throw away his status by attempting to murder the king.

 

I did forget this, but looking it up in my opinion it only reinforces my argument.  Dalinar knew that Sadeas would even try assassination and was willing to take the risk.  He would have challenged Sadeas through proper channels.  Adolin already knew all this and already knew it was wrong to murder Sadeas.  He chose to do it anyway.

The issue here is not just about "Ends Justify the Means". Adolin killed Sadeas because he knew Sadeas would escape politically like a hero in public, while in private he would remain a traitor to the throne. Altogether Sadeas put three people that Adolin cares at risk, and was confirming to Adolin that he would do it again. Dalinar continued to give Sadeas a chance, even though he didn't deserve it., all based on a friendship that no longer existed. Any other High Prince would have already been executed for crimes like those that Sadeas committed, and Adolin realized this short-sightedness of his father and decided to act and make the best decision for the kingdom. Adolin still tries to argue with him that he had another way of solving things.

"Why?" Adolin asked, stepping up to him. "Why are you like this, Sadeas?"
“Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died. ”
"It doesn’t have to be that way."
“It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it. ” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback. ” Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped. That’s it.

Moash never gave Elhokar a chance, he didn't even let Kaladin argue with him about Roshane. He didn't even plan to hear Elhokar's side of the story.
And this moment where he speaks:
"I'm sorry, Kal," Moash said, stepping forward. "I should have made it quick at the start."
it was after Graves saying to him:
"He has seen too much," Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him. ”

And shortly thereafter he summoned the Shardblade. If he only planned to incapacitate Kaladin he would not need a super weapon against an already severely injured and powerless man armed with a knife. Could he have repented? It can. Could he have given up? Yes. But it does not change the fact that he has shown himself willing to kill Kaladin for a petty revenge.

So I accept that you defend Moash's actions, or that he is redeemable, and that what Adolin did was wrong. But not to compare Adolin and Moash. Moash betrayed Kaladin, the Bridge Four and the Kingdom, and after that he went on to even worse crimes.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Raphaborn

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

I think he would have. Agree to disagree?

Yeah, I think that's fair.  I guess the thing I'm trying to point out here is there is a lot more gray to Moash than people like to talk about these days.  The fact that we're even having this conversation says there's not a clear cut answer.  He went over to the side of evil, but I think he still has some good in him.  It may not come out except at the very end of his life like a Darth Vader, but I think it's there.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I agree that ends do not justify the means, but I have to contend that Jezrien doesn't deserve punishment, if he were just tired of pain but cognitively functional that would be a different story, but his brain is coming apart at the seems and we have from Brandon that he is insane. So, there's my two cents.

You could argue Jezrien's maybe already had his punishment - thousands of years of insanity and guilt for what he did.  

 

@Raphaborn It's fair to say that as a whole Adolin has not done as many bad things as Moash.  But, it's also fair to say that Adolin has not been in a position where he was forced to do bad things to survive the way Moash was.  Part of the reason I judge Adolin more harshly is because he had better choices.  Adolin had the option to trust his father and fight Sadeas honestly, but chose to murder Sadeas.  Moash tried to use legal recourse against the king and it failed.  He had the option to sit idly by while Elhokar's continued negligence and incompetence caused major harm to society or try to do something about it.  He also chose murder which was still wrong, but he didn't really have a good choice available.  

We started this whole argument because someone said Moash is evil because he killed someone.  If killing someone makes you evil, then Adolin is just as evil.  You can't justify Adolin's unilateral decision to murder Sadeas.  It was wrong.  I think both Adolin and Moash are redeemable, but I also think people are WAY too harsh on Moash for what he's done relative to other characters who've committed major crimes for understandable reasons like Adolin and Venli.

I'm not going to rehash the Moash/Kaladin fight scene.  I think from the text it's clear that Moash did not want to kill Kaladin and tried everything he could think of to stop it from happening.  Importantly, he never swung his shard blade at Kaladin.  Also, in OB after killing Elhokar he could have easily killed Kaladin while Kaladin was having his mental breakdown, but he chose not to.  I think this shows that twisted as it is, Moash still feels love and respect for Kaladin.

Edited May 8, 2020 by agrabes

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

Isn't there a whole thing about having a duty to refuse a blatantly illegal orders from superiors? I know our laws are not Roshar's, but we're already referring to Earth conventions of what an order is, and killing a drunk beggar (who let's be honest is not about to be confused with the Herald of Kings) seems like the kind of thing that a reasonable person would think is beyond the acceptable. As for Elhokar supposedly being able to fight back against Moash, I don't see how that's the case when he's carrying a child and quite obviously escaping rather than facing him in combat.

It may not have legal standing, but I can certainly understand Adolin's response to someone who has attempted to kill both him and his father (not to mention actually has killed thousands of other soldiers in that attempt, but no-one seems to care about them) admitting that they intend to do so again. If pre-emptive self defense existed, this might be the textbook example.

As for the whole 'how dare Moash salute Kaladin' thing, it seemed to me that it meant 'we are on opposite sides, but I respect you and the conviction you have' not the 'haha storm you now I'll twirl my moustache and cackle' that people think it is.

As I've said before, I can accept Moash being redeemed (hell, I'd wager the only reason people don't hate Dalinar this much is because we met him after he was already midway through his redemption), but it needs to be more than the 'you had a bad childhood so any crimes you commit are instantly forgiven with a half-assed apology' that seems to be prevalent in fandom lately.

[Raphaborn]

43 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

As I've said before, I can accept Moash being redeemed (hell, I'd wager the only reason people don't hate Dalinar this much is because we met him after he was already midway through his redemption), but it needs to be more than the 'you had a bad childhood so any crimes you commit are instantly forgiven with a half-assed apology' that seems to be prevalent in fandom lately.

I agree. That is why I get irritated by this "Moash did nothing wrong" philosophy. All the characters have had serious flaws in the course of the books, in some cases really terrible things that would make them the villains of another works. I don't think Moash is the worst person in the world, my biggest anger at him was for betraying the person who saved his life (which puts him in the same group as Amaram and Sadeas). I think he can redeem himself, but for that he will have to stop being stupid and accept the consequences of his mistakes.
In fact, I really hope that in RoW we will see the characters having to deal with the consequences of their choices so far. Kaladin confessing about conspiring against Elhokar, Dalinar having to rebuild the trust his children had in him after confessing how Evi died, Adolin facing the fact that he murdered Sadeas, and Renarin having to deal with the lies and his corruption. As we are going to have Moash's arc in this book I would then like to see him having to deal with the fact that he is this selfish coward, and making new choices. I just hope that if he decides to redeem himself  he survives, i hate when characters die without having to deal with their own mistakes.
Life before death, Radiant.