Mistborn vs Else

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

The quote specifically says.  "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you ."

Thank you, I still don't remember it but I'll go looking

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

The quote specifically says.  "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you ."

Thank you, I still don't remember it but I'll go looking

 

4 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Not to hurt an ally but Amaram was almost dead by the time Rock shot him

 

Uh no, 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

If there is enough room to be jumping around with Steel then there is enough room to dodge.

Then there is enough room for gravitation.

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

True, I'll give you that

Thank you

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Not particularly, he used a couple tricks but he really didn't do much. 

He'd get better

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They are fundamental forces, but you are waaaaay overplaying how a Radiant could use them. Using that logic a Mistborn should just be able to push on the iron in the Radiants blood causing a whole host of nastiness. 

And compounding is more than a Mistborn, and a Feruchemist could do, together, I'm saying, if a Herald with unlimited Stormlight, or Yelig-nar got a lot of time to grow then your screwed.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Uh no, 

Broken jaw and Crystals, on top of a cracked gemheart, yeah he was almost dead.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Booknerd said:

Broken jaw and Crystals, on top of a cracked gemheart, yeah he was almost dead.

He was hurt, that doesn't mean almost dead. Kaladin only got one good hit on him

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

And compounding is more than a Mistborn, and a Feruchemist could do, together, I'm saying, if a Herald with unlimited Stormlight, or Yelig-nar got a lot of time to grow then your screwed.

And we saw what Vin vould do with unlimited power, she flattened a city

[StanLemon]

Frankly I think the moderators need to lock this thread because this debate has gotten ridiculous. Much of the pro Radiant arguments require hypothetical and conjecture as we dont know what 4th or 5th Ideal Radiants are capable of. And we have gotten to the point where we are talking about unlimited power vs unlimited power

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And we saw what Vin vould do with unlimited power, she flattened a city

And when she explodes from rapidly expanding blood initiated by someone in the CR? What does she do then?

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

He was hurt, that doesn't mean almost dead. Kaladin only got one good hit on him

He was barely functional, and it only took one more hit to his gemheart to kill him

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Frankly I think the moderators need to lock this thread because this debate has gotten ridiculous. Much of the pro Radiant arguments require hypothetical and conjecture as we dont know what 4th or 5th Ideal Radiants are capable of. And we have gotten to the point where we are talking about unlimited power vs unlimited power

My point on the surges being more powerful was an offhand comment that I agree has gotten too much attention.

As for your pro Mistborn argument, it's all Atium which we know is fallible.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Booknerd said:

And when she explodes from rapidly expanding blood initiated by someone in the CR? What does she do then?

And when she explodes the radiant from ripping out all the Iron in their system?

Just now, Booknerd said:

He was barely functional, and it only took one more hit to his gemheart to kill him

It's almost like the gemheart was struck by an arrow designed to pierce Plate and was the source of his powers. Almost like a glowing weak spot?

Just now, Booknerd said:

As for your pro Mistborn argument, it's all Atium which we know is fallible.

I have pointed out how Chromium and Nicrosil could both be used to drain a Radiant of their Stormlight thus greatly weakening them and the advantage time bubbles and electrum future sight give. Atium is simply the most powerful metal, but by no means the only one they could use against a Radiant

While I have been making pro-Mistborn arguments, that is because I very much do not believe that they are as unstoppable as so many believe. As I said before, I do very much believe that Radiants have the advantage overall. Just by no means an insurmountable one.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

And when she explodes the radiant from ripping out all the Iron in their system?

That's why I specified CR

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It's almost like the gemheart was struck by an arrow designed to pierce Plate and was the source of his powers. Almost like a glowing weak spot?

A cracked gemheart similar to a linchpin spike being all but removed, and the inquisitor distracted with multiple bones broken, only to give the credit to the guy that pulled it out the last few inches

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I have pointed out how Chromium and Nicrosil could both be used to drain a Radiant of their Stormlight thus greatly weakening them and the advantage time bubbles and electrum future sight give. Atium is simply the most powerful metal, but by no means the only one they could use against a Radiant

Neither metal gets through plate, and even if you did you still have a blade to deal with. And if you say Dur-aluminum I will just have the Radiant pull stormlight from gems they have on their person

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

While I have been making pro-Mistborn arguments, that is because I very much do not believe that they are as unstoppable as so many believe. As I said before, I do very much believe that Radiants have the advantage overall. Just by no means an insurmountable one.

I don't think a Radiant would win every time I just think that those time where they wouln't are the exception not the norm. maybe like 35:1 chances the Radiant wins

[NameIess]

On 1/11/2020 at 6:24 PM, Nameless said:

1. Mistborn with steel, iron, tin, pewter, zinc, brass, gold, electrum, Atium, bronze, copper, duraluminum, and aluminum. For equipment, they have glass daggers, a coin pouch, and a Mistcloak.

2. Mistborn with all sixteen metals, but no Atium. For  equipment, they have aluminum daggers and a coin pouch

3. Mistborn with all metals we have seen in the books, equipped with aluminum daggers and a coin pouch.

This is my opinion on how the fights would go:

1. Radiants below third ideal have no chance unless they are from either the Skybreaker, edgedancer, Windrunner, or Dustbringer, and have the terrain advantage. With Plate, and possibly shardglasses, those orders win most of the time. The other orders have a chance once they get Plate, depending on how powerful living Plate is, they could possibly win.

2. Radiants without Plate lose to chromium unless they are either a Windrunner, Skybreaker, Edgedancer, or Dustbringer, and are in a position were they can use their full mobility, or a Lightweaver who fools the Mistborn with illusions. With Plate I think all the orders would win, unless chromium instantly destroys Shardplate.

3. before Plate, all orders lose. With Plate, only the Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, and Dustbringers have a chance, and I think the terrain will decide the victor.

(I didn't include Stonewards because we haven't seen them in action yet)

On a side note, could Lightweavers make a bunch of fake Atium shadows to fool a Mistborn? I know that illusions can be detected by bronze, but it would still be extremely confusing and could help to negate the effects of Atium somewhat.

This is what I believe, and it still stands, with the addition of the Elsecallers, who could win every battle as long as they have enough Stormlight to get to the Cognitive.

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

This is what I believe, and it still stands, with the addition of the Elsecallers, who could win every battle as long as they have enough Stormlight to get to the Cognitive.

I'm not sure the amount of Stormlight affects it, at least not by itself. In Oathbringer Jasnah thinks to herself how the realms are so close because of the perpendicularity which makes it easier, but she also does think to herself that she has so much Stormlight helps.

Edited March 30, 2020 by StanLemon

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

Not to hurt an ally but Amaram was almost dead by the time Rock shot him

He would have burned out yeah but Kaladin was out of stormlight and Amaram was about to deliver his coup de grace.

49 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Frankly I think the moderators need to lock this thread because this debate has gotten ridiculous. Much of the pro Radiant arguments require hypothetical and conjecture as we dont know what 4th or 5th Ideal Radiants are capable of. And we have gotten to the point where we are talking about unlimited power vs unlimited power

There is a world of difference between a reasonable or near certain conjecture and a hypothetical.  As to Mods locking it down I don't think that is necessary. 

59 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Thank you, I still don't remember it but I'll go looking

Do you need a chapter?

Edited March 30, 2020 by Karger

[StanLemon]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

Do you need a chapter?

I'll go looking when I have spare time but the chapter would help

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'll go looking when I have spare time but the chapter would help

Chapter 34 OB.  It is pretty easy to spot Dalinar is talking to the Windrunner. 

[Bigmikey357]

The difference between Vin's fight with the Inquisition and Kaladin's versus Amaram and the Fused was that Kaladin had to both fight all his foes and protect a defenseless Dalinar at the same time. Vin just had to stay alive until she ascends.  Kaladin,  even 3rd Oath Kaladin, is a super formidable foe, and I expect him to get much better. 

That being said, if we're talking Vin pre-ascension vs. 5 Oath Kaladin,  I'd put my money on Vin figuring out a Radiant weakness and exploiting the advantage at just the right time.  She doesn't think Atium is an automatic I Win card and she has an intuitive sense of her powers.  Plus she's much more ruthless. Kaladin can get squeamish in the moment,  Vin won't until after the fight ends. However,  neither Kal or Vin is the baseline for their respective power sets, both are exceptional.  

So for our baseline we could choose Shan Elarial vs. Teft boosted to 5 Oath territory.  Shan isn't beating a Radiant of the 5th Oath and most likely wouldn't be able to best a 3 Oath guy no more than 3 times out of 10. And that's with Atium.  Without it she's toast. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So for our baseline we could choose Shan Elarial vs. Teft boosted to 5 Oath territory.  Shan isn't beating a Radiant of the 5th Oath and most likely wouldn't be able to best a 3 Oath guy no more than 3 times out of 10. And that's with Atium.  Without it she's toast. 

Radiants are selected. Mistborn come out of a roulette. So, yes, the average KR of a martial order is likely better than a randomly picked Mistborn. Whether you like to pit random picks against each other or equal skills is a matter of preference. I just have to point out that Shan Elarial against the Stump or Ym may have ended again differently.

And in fact, Shan would have retreated in most cases. And then she would have struck from an ambush. The question who beats whom in hand to hand combat is really not all that relevant. How long can a Radiant keep his Plate on? They still have to eat and drink. And the other end of metabolism imposes some limitations. Can you sleep in it? Hence the question of how well a Radiant can fortify himself is highly relevant. As well as how 'loud' a Radiant with armor summoned is to a user of bronze. And what does a coppercloud do to a spren?

[Bigmikey357]

@Oltux72

Stump isn't off her first Oath and Ym was never a Radiant in the first place. At their level a Misting could beat them bloody. But what you say is relevant regardless. 

But if they aren't planning on fighting gladiator style it becomes a game of hide and seek. Mistborn are better suited to that type of battlefield scenario and striking from ambush greatly improves their chances for survival. It's not perfect;  spren serve as an excellent detection alarm. So Shan would have to be ,successful on her first attempt or the game is over. 

So let's say I'm Shan Elarial and I wanna kill the Lopen. Teft is way too easy a target,  compromised because of his addiction.  So the Lopen at Oath 5.  I'm schooling my emotions by soothing myself, the better to attract little notice in either Realm. I drop from a rooftop or high ceiling, the intent being to bury the blade in his brain and snapping off the hilt.  Then it depends upon how much warning Tua could give Lopen and how fast Plate can generate. If the response time is slow, Lopen dies. A dagger in the brain could be worse than a bullet. Fast reaction time kills Shan. She breaks the blades on Lopen's helm, he grabs her before she can flee. If she managed to free herself Tua will be on hyper alert for the next attempt.  In other words her cover gets blown. That's a fatal mistake. 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So let's say I'm Shan Elarial and I wanna kill the Lopen. Teft is way too easy a target,  compromised because of his addiction.  So the Lopen at Oath 5.  I'm schooling my emotions by soothing myself, the better to attract little notice in either Realm. I drop from a rooftop or high ceiling, the intent being to bury the blade in his brain and snapping off the hilt.  Then it depends upon how much warning Tua could give Lopen and how fast Plate can generate. If the response time is slow, Lopen dies. A dagger in the brain could be worse than a bullet. Fast reaction time kills Shan. She breaks the blades on Lopen's helm, he grabs her before she can flee. If she managed to free herself Tua will be on hyper alert for the next attempt.  In other words her cover gets blown. That's a fatal mistake. 

And here we enter the area of unknowns. What does a coppercloud do to a spren's powers of observation? Are spren vulnerable to emotional allomancy? Can you use chrome against a spren? Can you sense a spren with bronze? What do zinc and brass do to a Knight Radiant? Can you make them not care enough to resummon their Plate?

Actually I would leave the hilt on. It may stop the Radiant from summoning his helmet. Notch some hooks into your blade. But those are details. That is indeed the basic tactic. If the Radiant is disabled more than a few seconds, he will die. If the Radiant gets a good strike with his Blade in, the Mistborn is dead. That means the Radiant could try to use a trap. This really boils down the unknowns and individual capabilities, not arcane powers.

For that you would need clearer differences. A Radiant without a Blade would die, unless he simply runs far away. I would bet on the Mistborn, if the Radiant had no Plate, but this is not a sure thing. If the Radiant has Plate and Blade, all bets will be of.

[StanLemon]

Mistborn are trained from childhood though. So they wouldn't be slouches in a fight, even Shan. However they are trained more as assassins than soldiers. 

I was wondering if anyone remembers the chapter that Shallan gets an arrow in the head. I can't remember the scene completely. I'm asking because one of the big parts of this debate are that a Radiant can take a head wound and heal. However what I remember from that scene is that Shallan was half debilitated and needed help removing the arrow. That makes me think a knife or even a coin through the eye would still be bad for a Radiant. One other reason I want to reread that scene is I can't remember if it uses up a lot of her Stormlight to survive and heal from it

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I was wondering if anyone remembers the chapter that Shallan gets an arrow in the head. I can't remember the scene completely. I'm asking because one of the big parts of this debate are that a Radiant can take a head wound and heal. However what I remember from that scene is that Shallan was half debilitated and needed help removing the arrow. That makes me think a knife or even a coin through the eye would still be bad for a Radiant. One other reason I want to reread that scene is I can't remember if it uses up a lot of her Stormlight to survive and heal from it

Shallan had trouble speaking and holding things but on the thinking end she was fine, personally I think it was just her being stupid that she didn't just rip it out to begin with.

 

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Shallan had trouble speaking and holding things but on the thinking end she was fine, personally I think it was just her being stupid that she didn't just rip it out to begin with.

 

Which is why I want to reread the scene. To see how much it really did affect her.

I would live if anyone remembers where the chapter that it happens in because I'm having trouble finding it for some reason. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Which is why I want to reread the scene. To see how much it really did affect her.

I would live if anyone remembers where the chapter that it happens in because I'm having trouble finding it for some reason. 

If I recall correctly it's in OB during the Kholinar mission before the heart of reavel. Hope that helps.

[StanLemon]

@Booknerd thank you it did. OB chapter 72.

The wound doesn't seem to use up more Stormlight than any other healing. However the wound was debilitating. She lost feeling in the left side of her body and she had trouble pulling it out herself. Stormlight healed around the crossbow bolt causing it to stick in her. Most importantly, removing it caused her to black out.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

The wound doesn't seem to use up more Stormlight than any other healing. However the wound was debilitating. She lost feeling in the left side of her body and she had trouble pulling it out herself. Stormlight healed around the crossbow bolt causing it to stick in her. Most importantly, removing it caused her to black out.

An aluminum dagger through the eye would kill a Radiant unless they took it out right away. Aluminum inflicted wounds cannot be healed as long as the aluminum remains in it.