Mistborn vs Else

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

The biggest challenge he could think of offhand for Kelsier with atium (excluding Shards and Slivers) was Vin with atium.

Brandon didn't mention Vin, the questioner did.

5 hours ago, robardin said:

The only times he'd allowed that Kaladin would beat Vin or Kelsier was "on a battlefield" - which I would take to mean with his team of Bridge Four behind him and with coordinated attack patterns. (This also must mean Bridge Four as Windrunner squires, since for Kaladin to have a chance at all he needs to be able to summon Syl as a Shardblade, which means the version of Kaladin that has sworn the Third Ideal.)

 

"On a battlefield" does not mean that Kaladin has his squires with him any more than it means that Kelsier has Vin with him. Brandon was asked whether Kaladin could beat Vin/Kelsier, and Brandon answered that question. Brandon did not say that Kaladin had bridge 4 with him, he said that Kaladin would  beat Vin/Kelsier on a battlefield.

5 hours ago, robardin said:

After all, if you consider the biggest "battlefield showdown vs. a massively Inversted opponent" scene we've seen with Kaladin, that would be in Oathbringer against Yelig-Namaram... Where he needed help from a Stormlight-holding Rock using a Shardbow to defeat him. Which isn't "cheating". It's who and what he is. 

Windrunner powers are very combat-oriented (as seen with Szeth as the Assassin In White), but the way Windrunners operate when spren-selected remind me of Kipling's Law of the Jungle (from The Jungle Book) that Mowgli learns to recite: For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

I believe Kaladin would have beaten Amaran on his own, except that he didn't just fight Amaran, he fought Amaran, disabled him, then fought twelve fused that have thousands of years of experiece at combat at once, with two more fused getting rid of all the stormlight around him, then, while on the ground unable to stand, Rock saved him from Amaran.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Llstml
Grammar

[Aon Tia she/her]

8 hours ago, robardin said:

 

About the skies being Kaladin's vs. Kelsier's domain: I suspect Kaladin can get much higher up than Kelsier, as increasing one's altitude in the sky using A-steel involves constant Pushing on a more and more distant anchor (which gets harder and harder to Push against), while with a Full Lashing you just fall upwards, faster and faster (with natural acceleration as from gravity), until the Lashing is released/altered or the Stormlight runs out. Which would give Kaladin the fabled Advantage of High Ground (well, High Altitude)!

How long these Lashings last, though, versus how much Stormlight Kaladin would typically have on him, is another question. Without special preparation, like his flight across Roshar to Hearthstone when he'd requisitioned most of the Emerald Reserve (and which was still insufficient), I suppose a few large spheres' worth would be normal? Here, I suspect the amount of metal a Mistborn would carry around on a typical day (multiple vials, especially of the basic metals which are cheap and easy to get) would prove an advantage in total Investiture.

I agree. It would be an interesting fight! But I agree that while Kelsier might reach the sky and jump around but he still can not defeat kaladin! Kelsier might have temporary visiting rights in the sky but sky is kaladin’s!! 

[StanLemon]

20 hours ago, Llstml said:

Brandon didn't mention Vin, the questioner did.

"On a battlefield" does not mean that Kaladin has his squires with him any more than it means that Kelsier has Vin with him. Brandon was asked whether Kaladin could beat Vin/Kelsier, and Brandon answered that question. Brandon did not say that Kaladin had bridge 4 with him, he said that Kaladin would  beat Vin/Kelsier on a battlefield.

It also doesn't mean a straight fight, an attack in an alley in the dark is still a straight fight. I interpret battlefield as being a traditional image of a battlefield such as an open field where the Mistborn's mobility would be severely hampered while simultaneously increasing a Windrunner's mobility. That's why the location of a fight is so important to this discussion. The more open the area is the more it slides toward the Windrunner, the more filled the terrain is the more the fight slides to Mistborn 

20 hours ago, Llstml said:

I believe Kaladin would have beaten Amaran on his own, except that he didn't just fight Amaran, he fought Amaran, disabled him, then fought twelve fused that have thousands of years of experiece at combat at once, with two more fused getting rid of all the stormlight around him, then, while on the ground unable to stand, Rock saved him from Amaran.

He wasn't really fighting the Fuzed, mostly distracting them from their goals of attacking Dalinar. If you reread the fight, it's pretty much Kaladin vs Amaram and Kaladin was at best only keeping even with Amaram. Perhaps his performance against Amaram would have been better had he not let himself be so distracted by the Fuzed, but then you also have to take into account that Amaram was brand new to his Surges

[NameIess]

Just now, StanLemon said:

He wasn't really fighting the Fuzed, mostly distracting them from their goals of attacking Dalinar. If you reread the fight, it's pretty much Kaladin vs Amaram and Kaladin was at best only keeping even with Amaram. Perhaps his performance against Amaram would have been better had he not let himself be so distracted by the Fuzed, but then you also have to take into account that Amaram was brand new to his Surges

And the Fused who attacked Kaladin while Kaladin was fighting Amaran, and then assisted Amaran throughout the rest of the fight? Are you forgetting that Kaladin beat Amaran? He stabbed Amaran's crystal, and if a dozen Fused hadn't attacked him, Kaladin would have easily finished Amaran off. I will summarize the battle: first, Kaladin fights Amaran while constantly watching out for Dalinar, being forced to fly off to get the fused away from Dalinar a few time, and despite was about to stab Amaran in the face, when a Fused takes him by surprise and hits him. Kaladin then fought Amaran and the Fused, while still watching out for Dalinar. Kaladin then lashes the Fused into the air and defeats defeats Amaran. Before he can finish Amaran off, he is attacked by a dozen fused at once. Then, after the fused fight Kaladin, leaving him drained of stormlight and unable to stand, Amaran limps up with a broken jaw, and is about to kill him when Rock shoots Amaran with a bow. without the Fused, Kaladin would have simply flown down and stabbed the gemstone in Amarans chest a few more times, killing him.

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It also doesn't mean a straight fight, an attack in an alley in the dark is still a straight fight. I interpret battlefield as being a traditional image of a battlefield such as an open field where the Mistborn's mobility would be severely hampered while simultaneously increasing a Windrunner's mobility. That's why the location of a fight is so important to this discussion. The more open the area is the more it slides toward the Windrunner, the more filled the terrain is the more the fight slides to Mistborn 

A windrunner can still change their gravitational pull in a closed terrain as an open one. Placing the battlefield in a closed terrain may increase a mistborn's maneuverability, but I do not think by proxy it would limit the windrunners. The windrunner can still cut through the terrain with their blade, smash through it with their plate, or redirect it with their surges. Other radiants would have further capabilities. Now if this is in reference to atium, that the windrunner could not get far enough away from the atium user for the atium to run out, my next thought is punching a hole through whatever structure they are in, and thereby attain that height

to clarify I am not saying a windrunner would curb stomp a mistborn. I am not saying that the mistborn's maneuverability in that circumstance would be useless. I am not saying you are wrong to mention the maneuverability. I am just mentioning that I think there are additional traits for a radiant that the increase of maneuverability for a mistborn would lean towards victory. In my opinion. 

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He wasn't really fighting the Fuzed, mostly distracting them from their goals of attacking Dalinar. If you reread the fight, it's pretty much Kaladin vs Amaram and Kaladin was at best only keeping even with Amaram. Perhaps his performance against Amaram would have been better had he not let himself be so distracted by the Fuzed, but then you also have to take into account that Amaram was brand new to his Surges

Anytime one side must protect something while fighting, it leaves that side at a handicap. The attacking side can try and fail 100s of times, but they only need to succeed once. The defending side can succeed 100s of times, but only need to fail once. So for a single individual to cover multiple angles of attack (from above, left, right, front and back) because Dalinar is out in the open, and the opponents can fly, would (to me) significantly put a hamper on kaladin's offensive capabilities in defeating Amaram. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Tglassy]

There is no getting away from someone with Atium.  They'd know how you were going to try it.  Vin tried it.  They'd have to be able to get away with NO way for the Mistborn to stop them.  In an enclosed setting, especially, that's not going to happen. The Mistborn would know exactly how they were going to try to get away and would know exactly how to counter it.  There is no stopping someone with Atium.  If there was only one chance in a billion that the Mistborn could take on a Radiant, then a Mistborn with Atium would hit that chance every single time.  Because Future Sight.  

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

There is no getting away from someone with Atium.  They'd know how you were going to try it.  Vin tried it.  They'd have to be able to get away with NO way for the Mistborn to stop them.  In an enclosed setting, especially, that's not going to happen. The Mistborn would know exactly how they were going to try to get away and would know exactly how to counter it.  There is no stopping someone with Atium.  If there was only one chance in a billion that the Mistborn could take on a Radiant, then a Mistborn with Atium would hit that chance every single time.  Because Future Sight.

It is possible to defeat someone with Atium, as Vin did it, but doing so is almost impossible, even if stormlight gives more speed than pewter does.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Llstml said:

And the Fused who attacked Kaladin while Kaladin was fighting Amaran, and then assisted Amaran throughout the rest of the fight? Are you forgetting that Kaladin beat Amaran? He stabbed Amaran's crystal, and if a dozen Fused hadn't attacked him, Kaladin would have easily finished Amaran off. I will summarize the battle: first, Kaladin fights Amaran while constantly watching out for Dalinar, being forced to fly off to get the fused away from Dalinar a few time, and despite was about to stab Amaran in the face, when a Fused takes him by surprise and hits him. Kaladin then fought Amaran and the Fused, while still watching out for Dalinar. Kaladin then lashes the Fused into the air and defeats defeats Amaran. Before he can finish Amaran off, he is attacked by a dozen fused at once. Then, after the fused fight Kaladin, leaving him drained of stormlight and unable to stand, Amaran limps up with a broken jaw, and is about to kill him when Rock shoots Amaran with a bow. without the Fused, Kaladin would have simply flown down and stabbed the gemstone in Amarans chest a few more times, killing him.

I have the book right in front of me as I'm typing. And you are incorrect and overstating Kaladin.

First off, from the beginning of the fight, Kal was on the defensive. He then disengaged when he noticed a Fuzed go after Dalinar and warded off the Fuzed by cutting through one of their Lance's with Syl. He disengaged them in order to fight Amaram again after Amaram started firing arrows at him. He did keep an eye toward the Fuzed in case they attacked Dalinar so he was somewhat distracted, but he still was on the defensive during this part of the fight. He did Lash a stone to distract a Fuzed, but only after he used gained distance from Amaram. All of this while thinking to himself about how good it was that the field was flush with Stormlight. Then he had Syl to warn him of the Fuzed that attacked him. He was planning to attempt to try to stab Amaram in the face which is a far cry from being about to. As Amaram had already seen Kal do the face stab once before, I personally doubted it would work.

He didn't fight the Fuzed at the same time as Amaram, not really. He fought for a moment with the Fuzed, temporarily disabled it giving him time to fight Amaram, and the moment the Fuzed did start fighting, Kaladin retreated. The Fuzed followed him and Kaladin let the Fuzed hit him so he could face Amaram alone by Lashing the Fuzed away. While fighting Amaram, he once again was on the defensive during the fight. The only reason Kaladin managed to hurt Amaram at all was because he was able to take advantage of Amarams guilt and distract him. That's a far cry from beating him as you say he did.

After that, half a dozen Fuzed showed up, he defended himself for a moment before Dalinar stopped the Thrill and they ran away. Amaram walked up to finish Kaladin off and that's when Rock killed him. 

This is all while Kaladin had far more Stormlight than he has ever had before, more than he could likely carry into a fight with him. So Kaladin was able to take advantage of Stormlight healing more than he usually would have been able to. But the end result is this, Kaladin was always on the defensive against Amaram, whether it was 1v 1 or against a group. He only started to gain the upper hand because he was able to make Amaram lose his composure. I think a lot of people's assumptions on how skilled Kaladin is, is because they remember him doing better in that fight than he actually did. That isn't to say what he did wasn't impressive, it was extraordinary. But it isn't Vin level, I would concede that it is probably Kelsier level though.

 

[Pathfinder]

22 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I have the book right in front of me as I'm typing. And you are incorrect and overstating Kaladin.

First off, from the beginning of the fight, Kal was on the defensive. He then disengaged when he noticed a Fuzed go after Dalinar and warded off the Fuzed by cutting through one of their Lance's with Syl. He disengaged them in order to fight Amaram again after Amaram started firing arrows at him. He did keep an eye toward the Fuzed in case they attacked Dalinar so he was somewhat distracted, but he still was on the defensive during this part of the fight. He did Lash a stone to distract a Fuzed, but only after he used gained distance from Amaram. All of this while thinking to himself about how good it was that the field was flush with Stormlight. Then he had Syl to warn him of the Fuzed that attacked him. He was planning to attempt to try to stab Amaram in the face which is a far cry from being about to. As Amaram had already seen Kal do the face stab once before, I personally doubted it would work.

He didn't fight the Fuzed at the same time as Amaram, not really. He fought for a moment with the Fuzed, temporarily disabled it giving him time to fight Amaram, and the moment the Fuzed did start fighting, Kaladin retreated. The Fuzed followed him and Kaladin let the Fuzed hit him so he could face Amaram alone by Lashing the Fuzed away. While fighting Amaram, he once again was on the defensive during the fight. The only reason Kaladin managed to hurt Amaram at all was because he was able to take advantage of Amarams guilt and distract him. That's a far cry from beating him as you say he did.

After that, half a dozen Fuzed showed up, he defended himself for a moment before Dalinar stopped the Thrill and they ran away. Amaram walked up to finish Kaladin off and that's when Rock killed him. 

This is all while Kaladin had far more Stormlight than he has ever had before, more than he could likely carry into a fight with him. So Kaladin was able to take advantage of Stormlight healing more than he usually would have been able to. But the end result is this, Kaladin was always on the defensive against Amaram, whether it was 1v 1 or against a group. He only started to gain the upper hand because he was able to make Amaram lose his composure. I think a lot of people's assumptions on how skilled Kaladin is, is because they remember him doing better in that fight than he actually did. That isn't to say what he did wasn't impressive, it was extraordinary. But it isn't Vin level, I would concede that it is probably Kelsier level though.

 

Just a quick point or two. The infusion of stormlight from when Dalinar brought the realms together was not a continuous effect. It supercharged all the radiants, and then charged all the gemstones. Then the effect stopped. The gemstones with stormlight in them then became a finite resource. The fused began to remove them from around Kaladin so he could not draw on more. So he had even less. Also from what I recall a fused cracked Kaladin across the face, as well as other injuries? I think trading blows repeatedly (from my understanding of it) would qualify as fighting them. 

Not saying it in that manner to be snarky, or sarcastic. Only stating that is how I interpreted the reading from my recollection. 

[StanLemon]

40 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a quick point or two. The infusion of stormlight from when Dalinar brought the realms together was not a continuous effect. It supercharged all the radiants, and then charged all the gemstones. Then the effect stopped. The gemstones with stormlight in them then became a finite resource. The fused began to remove them from around Kaladin so he could not draw on more. So he had even less. Also from what I recall a fused cracked Kaladin across the face, as well as other injuries? I think trading blows repeatedly (from my understanding of it) would qualify as fighting them. 

Not saying it in that manner to be snarky, or sarcastic. Only stating that is how I interpreted the reading from my recollection. 

They only started doing that at the very end of the fight. So for the majority of the fight he had more than enough Stormlight to keep going. I agree he fought them, what I meant by it is he was usually only fighting one at a time while other enemies were distracted. Yes he was technically fighting multiple enemies during the majority of the fight but he primarily wasn't fighting multiple opponents until the end of the fight. As soon as that happened he was overwhelmed.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I have the book right in front of me as I'm typing. And you are incorrect and overstating Kaladin.

I had the book with me as well, and referred to it while I was typing my post

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

First off, from the beginning of the fight, Kal was on the defensive. He then disengaged when he noticed a Fuzed go after Dalinar and warded off the Fuzed by cutting through one of their Lance's with Syl. He disengaged them in order to fight Amaram again after Amaram started firing arrows at him. He did keep an eye toward the Fuzed in case they attacked Dalinar so he was somewhat distracted, but he still was on the defensive during this part of the fight. He did Lash a stone to distract a Fuzed, but only after he used gained distance from Amaram. All of this while thinking to himself about how good it was that the field was flush with Stormlight. Then he had Syl to warn him of the Fuzed that attacked him. He was planning to attempt to try to stab Amaram in the face which is a far cry from being about to. As Amaram had already seen Kal do the face stab once before, I personally doubted it would work.

This is accurate, although Syl didn't warn Kaladin until the last second, and I think that Kaladin would have succeeded.

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

He didn't fight the Fuzed at the same time as Amaram, not really. He fought for a moment with the Fuzed, temporarily disabled it giving him time to fight Amaram, and the moment the Fuzed did start fighting, Kaladin retreated. The Fuzed followed him and Kaladin let the Fuzed hit him so he could face Amaram alone by Lashing the Fuzed away. While fighting Amaram, he once again was on the defensive during the fight. The only reason Kaladin managed to hurt Amaram at all was because he was able to take advantage of Amarams guilt and distract him. That's a far cry from beating him as you say he did.

Just because Kaladin separated the Fused and Amaram doesn't mean he wasn't still fighting them both at the same time. They were both attacking Kaladin, and so Kaladin split them up to fight them separately. As for Kaladin not beating Amaram, here is a direct quote from the book:

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Syl became a spear in his grip, matching his motions perfectly. He spun and slammed her against the gemstone at Amaram's heart. The amethyst cracked, and Amaram faltered in the air-then dropped. Two shardblades vanished to mist as the highprince fell some twenty feet to crash into the ground.

Then after some dialogue:

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Amaran climbed to his knees, howling a bestial sound and clutching the flickering gemstone at his chest, which went out, plunging the area into darkness.

How is this not defeating Amaram? this is not because of Amaram's guilt, it is because Kaladin severely damaged the gemstone in Amaram's chest. If the Fused hadn't attacked Kaladin, then he would have quickly finished Amaram off.

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

After that, half a dozen Fuzed showed up, he defended himself for a moment before Dalinar stopped the Thrill and they ran away. Amaram walked up to finish Kaladin off and that's when Rock killed him. 

The book doesn't say how long he fought the Fused for, but it was long enough for him to run out of stormlight

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

This is all while Kaladin had far more Stormlight than he has ever had before, more than he could likely carry into a fight with him. So Kaladin was able to take advantage of Stormlight healing more than he usually would have been able to. But the end result is this, Kaladin was always on the defensive against Amaram, whether it was 1v 1 or against a group. He only started to gain the upper hand because he was able to make Amaram lose his composure. I think a lot of people's assumptions on how skilled Kaladin is, is because they remember him doing better in that fight than he actually did. That isn't to say what he did wasn't impressive, it was extraordinary. But it isn't Vin level, I would concede that it is probably Kelsier level though.

Kaladin is the best soldier in the Cosmere:

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Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

On a battlefield, Kaladin would win against anyone short of a herald or Fullborn.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Llstml

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Llstml said:

I had the book with me as well, and referred to it while I was typing my post

This is accurate, although Syl didn't warn Kaladin until the last second, and I think that Kaladin would have succeeded.

We will have to disagree on that, having an attack plan is different than an actual attempt.

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Just because Kaladin separated the Fused and Amaram doesn't mean he wasn't still fighting them both at the same time. They were both attacking Kaladin, and so Kaladin split them up to fight them separately. As for Kaladin not beating Amaram, here is a direct quote from the book:

That's still massively different than two people attacking you at the same time. Yes he fought both but never simultaneously. Its impressive that he was able to set up the situation where he could do that but it's not the same thing.

 

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How is this not defeating Amaram? this is not because of Amaram's guilt, it is because Kaladin severely damaged the gemstone in Amaram's chest. If the Fused hadn't attacked Kaladin, then he would have quickly finished Amaram off.

He only got that hit in because he distracted Amaram by calling out his guilt and delusions. Yes he hurt Amaram, but it didn't take him out of the fight. That's like saying that someone who cracked and knocked over Shardplat "beat" them. Kaladin even thinks to himself that he needs to "press the advantage" and maybe the damage he did would have slid the fight into his favor, but up till then he was on the defensive fighting Amaram. Even before the Fuzed got involved.

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The book doesn't say how long he fought the Fused for, but it was long enough for him to run out of stormlight

You're right but it more or less described the fight and he was pretty overwhelmed pretty fast.

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Kaladin is the best soldier in the Cosmere:

Maybe the best soldier but definitely not the best fighter, honestly we need someone to ask Brandon what he means by battlefield 

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On a battlefield, Kaladin would win against anyone short of a herald or Fullborn.

A claim clearly contradicted by the books, for example Szeth is a much better fighter than Kaladin. The only reason that Kaladin won is because he a- had better Stormlight efficiency and b- Szeth was going through a mental breakdown during their last fight

Edited January 11, 2020 by StanLemon

[Aon Tia she/her]

@StanLemon @Tglassy With regard to a Street alley fight, I don’t think that a mistborn will be as at great an advantage at all against a windrunner. 
While an open field certainly helps a windrunner where he has full and open access to the sky, in closed quarters also, please remember the prologue where szeth killed Gavilar. He was actually able to use the surge of gravity so much better in an enclosed space, keep changing the direction of gravity for yourself or other and you have them so much confused they can not even think straight! Whereas a mistborn can only merely push and pull. 
 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

A claim clearly contradicted by the books, for example Szeth is a much better fighter than Kaladin. The only reason that Kaladin won is because he a- had better Stormlight efficiency and b- Szeth was going through a mental breakdown during their last fight

I disagree. Szeth has years of experience with windrunner surges when he first met kaladin whereas Kaladin was so new to his powers back then! But now, I am sure if they were to spar again, szeth will not win against kaladin. 
Besides, there is a difference between being trained in surges and being an assassin to being a soldier ! Kaladin has a lifetime in army, he is a true soldier. He has the discipline, training, battle experience to defeat anyone in a fight! 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I'll throw my hat in the ring again regarding the 2 arguments going on right now. 

7 hours ago, Tglassy said:

There is no getting away from someone with Atium.  They'd know how you were going to try it.  Vin tried it.  They'd have to be able to get away with NO way for the Mistborn to stop them.  In an enclosed setting, especially, that's not going to happen. The Mistborn would know exactly how they were going to try to get away and would know exactly how to counter it.  There is no stopping someone with Atium.  If there was only one chance in a billion that the Mistborn could take on a Radiant, then a Mistborn with Atium would hit that chance every single time.  Because Future Sight.  

Mistborn has Atium.  Mistborn hits Radiant while burning Atium.  Then what? Does that hit kill the Radiant filled to the brim with Stormlight? Nope,  that guy is going to heal,  nearly instantly depending upon how much Stormlight held and severity of the wound.  Atium could be effective but if I were a Mistborn I'm doing my best to pick my moment, watch the glow, keep my distance.  Atium only helps me if I can one hit kill my opponent.  A bladed Radiant is going to be hard enough to do that to. One with plate too? Only the best of my kind (Vin) stands even a glimmer of a chance. 

Re: Kaladin  vs Yelig namaram

Anytime you fight someone outside your weight class there is little chance that you will dominate them. David beating Goliath is only notable because that isn't the usual outcome.  Therefore, saying Kaladin only got his hits in because of Amaram's guilty conscience is denying Kaladin's initiative in taking advantage of a tactical edge,  one that he in part created by verbally challenging Amaram.  End of the day,  he won. He had help but he won.

If I recall correctly,  Vin is in the same spot when she faced TLR. Fighting out of her weight class? Definitely. Did she take advantage of a tactical edge?  Yes, TLR's overconfidence.  Did she have help? Marsh was there and she got a not insignificant boost from the mists. Was she at the height of her powers at the time? Nope, and neither was Kaladin. They're roughly at the same point in their development. 

Last, we don't know how good Kaladin really is yet.  We don't have the finished product. Vin kills him now,  who is to say he loses after his 5th ideal? 

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

@StanLemon @Tglassy With regard to a Street alley fight, I don’t think that a mistborn will be as at great an advantage at all against a windrunner. 
While an open field certainly helps a windrunner where he has full and open access to the sky, in closed quarters also, please remember the prologue where szeth killed Gavilar. He was actually able to use the surge of gravity so much better in an enclosed space, keep changing the direction of gravity for yourself or other and you have them so much confused they can not even think straight! Whereas a mistborn can only merely push and pull. 
 

The Push and Pull is what makes the Mistborn so deadly in confined quarters. As to your comment about Szeth, yes he was deadly against people who lacked mobility and couldn't reach him which a Mistborn could counteract.

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. Szeth has years of experience with windrunner surges when he first met kaladin whereas Kaladin was so new to his powers back then! But now, I am sure if they were to spar again, szeth will not win against kaladin. 
Besides, there is a difference between being trained in surges and being an assassin to being a soldier ! Kaladin has a lifetime in army, he is a true soldier. He has the discipline, training, battle experience to defeat anyone in a fight! 

You're right, Szeth did have more experience in that role of an assassin. That's what Mistborn are trained as. Their fighting style is entirely built around being unpredictable and that gets maximized in certain environments. When you can obfuscate your attacks, the soldier you are facing gets put at a disadvantage. Also, not counting the time skip between Oathbringer and SL4 the "back then" you refer to is about a month. Also, you say Kaladin has the discipline, training, and battle experience to beat anyone? Are you saying Szeth lacks discipline? Lacks the training? And lacks experience? He trained with all the Honorblades save Taln's, he showed unbelievable discipline up until his ver worldview got upended. And he clearly knows how to fight against Shards and Surges. Frankly as far as accomplishments go, Szeth has shown the greatest combat feats so far in Stormlight.

To put into example how much I think too many of you overstate Kaladin's abilities. I'm certain that Marsh as he was in HoA could crush Kaladin as he is in Oathbringer. And that was before Marsh knew how to Compound. Between all the physical allomantic metals, atrium, feruchemical steel and gold. Kaladin would not survive long unless he kept a distance in the sky. Vin went up against that and several other feruchemy enhanced Inquisitors and lasted a decent while. I fully acknowledge that Kaladin is impressive and has the potential to become possibly the best but as it stands in Oathbringer he has not demonstrated near enough to call him as strong as many of you on here do

[NameIess]

12 hours ago, StanLemon said:

He only got that hit in because he distracted Amaram by calling out his guilt and delusions. Yes he hurt Amaram, but it didn't take him out of the fight. That's like saying that someone who cracked and knocked over Shardplat "beat" them. Kaladin even thinks to himself that he needs to "press the advantage" and maybe the damage he did would have slid the fight into his favor, but up till then he was on the defensive fighting Amaram. Even before the Fuzed got involved.

This is what happens later in the fight, after Kaladin is left without stormlight after fighting the Fused:

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Amaram's glowing red eyes illuminated a distorted face: his jaw had broken as he'd fallen, and gemstones had pushed out the sides of face at awkward angles, making the jaw hang limp from his mouth, drool leaking out the side. He stumbled toward Kaladin, gemstone heart pulsing with light. A shardblade formed in his hand.

It has at least been a few minutes since Kaladin stabbed Amaram, and Amaram is stumbling towards Kaladin. His frenetic grace mentioned earlier in the fight? his strength? gone. Kaladin would have easily beaten this stumbling wreck, especially considering that Amaram had time to recover while Kaladin was fighting the Fused, which he wouldn't have happened if the Fused hadn't interefered.

7 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The Push and Pull is what makes the Mistborn so deadly in confined quarters. As to your comment about Szeth, yes he was deadly against people who lacked mobility and couldn't reach him which a Mistborn could counteract.

In close quarters, a Windrunner or Skybreaker could lash the Mistborn to the ground five times, or lash them into the air. Yes, Investiture resists Investiture, but Kaladin and Szeth have lashed fused before, and Szeth Thinks that it is harder to lash people holding Stormlight. Overall, I think the close quarters fight favors the people who can regenerate, have shapeshifting weapons that can cut through anything and insta-kill almost anyone, and near-indestructible armor that is immune (possibly barring Duraluminum) to being pushed or pulled on.

[Tglassy]

Regenerating only helps if they can still move afterwards.  Cutting off a Radiant's head would pretty much do the job, and a Radiant without Plate is getting his head cut off by a Mistborn burning atrium pretty quick.  Along with his arms.  You can't hold a Shardblade without hands.

 

No, it wouldn't kill him outright.  But it takes a freaking ton of Stormlight to regrow an appendage, which includes the head.  So while he's laying on the ground, and his skin is regrowing and spine extending and skull forming, the Mistborn just continues to cut of appendages, until the glow goes away and the body stops regrowing.  

 

With plate, it becomes much harder.  The only way I see it happening is if they get a break away dagger, or some coins, in through the eye slit, leaving the metal in the head without a way to get it back out without taking the helmet off.  Then, if the Radiant conscious, he either fights with half a brain or takes his helmet off to try to remove the offending metal, in which case his head is coming off.  If the Radiant is not conscious, the Mistborn smashes his helmet with a rock until it shatters, and then takes his head off.  

 

But the thing is, if there is only one possible way out of a billion for a hit like that to work, a Mistborn burning Atium WILL hit it, every time.  The MIstborn would be able to know if he would go unconscious or not.  He would know exactly how to hit so that he WOULD go unconscious.  And if there was no way for him to go unconscious, then he would know if and when the Radiant would take his helmet off.  And if the Radiant DOESN'T take his helmet off, then the Mistborn could probably just shut off his Atium altogether, because fighting someone who can't think straight is not that difficult.  In fact, you don't even need a Mistborn to do all this.  An Atium Misting could.  Add in all the other powers of a Mistborn, and they're toast.  

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Tglassy said:

But the thing is, if there is only one possible way out of a billion for a hit like that to work, a Mistborn burning Atium WILL hit it, every time.  The MIstborn would be able to know if he would go unconscious or not.  He would know exactly how to hit so that he WOULD go unconscious.  And if there was no way for him to go unconscious, then he would know if and when the Radiant would take his helmet off.  And if the Radiant DOESN'T take his helmet off, then the Mistborn could probably just shut off his Atium altogether, because fighting someone who can't think straight is not that difficult.  In fact, you don't even need a Mistborn to do all this.  An Atium Misting could.  Add in all the other powers of a Mistborn, and they're toast.  

It is possible to defeat Mistborn with Atium, you just have to have a fast enough reaction speed to react to their blows, thereby bouncing their Atium off of itself, as their movements change the future that they saw. This would probably be almost impossible at close range, even if Stormlight gives more speed than Pewter, but against things like coins or thrown daggers, it would be possible. Also, whats to stop the Radiant from making "Shardglasses" with a bunch of holes that are too small for the Mistborn to get anything through, but still let the Radiant see. The Radiant could then just attack with shardplate, punching out at the Mistborn, forcing them to use Atium to survive in the close quarters.

[Tglassy]

1 minute ago, Llstml said:

It is possible to defeat Mistborn with Atium, you just have to have a fast enough reaction speed to react to their blows, thereby bouncing their Atium off of itself, as their movements change the future that they saw. This would probably be almost impossible at close range, even if Stormlight gives more speed than Pewter, but against things like coins or thrown daggers, it would be possible. Also, whats to stop the Radiant from making "Shardglasses" with a bunch of holes that are too small for the Mistborn to get anything through, but still let the Radiant see. The Radiant could then just attack with shardplate, punching out at the Mistborn, forcing them to use Atium to survive in the close quarters.

If we're going there, what's to stop a Mistborn from asking his Feruchemical friend to make some Steelmind armor, and Steelmind swords, all of which would be resistant to a Radiant's sword?  No, he can't use the power in the armor, but that's not the point.  The point is to stop that sword.  That's perfect in world, and makes more sense than "Glasses" that somehow stop coins shot at the speed of bullets.  

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

If we're going there, what's to stop a Mistborn from asking his Feruchemical friend to make some Steelmind armor, and Steelmind swords, all of which would be resistant to a Radiant's sword?  No, he can't use the power in the armor, but that's not the point.  The point is to stop that sword.  That's perfect in world, and makes more sense than "Glasses" that somehow stop coins shot at the speed of bullets.  

I not saying that the Radiant would get glasses, I am saying that they could summon their Shardblade in the shape of glasses or a facemask with small holes instead of clear glass, then wear that. Shardplate's one weakness would be solved. If I had prior knowledge of Atium, then I would definitely try to think  of some way to get rid of an easy way for my enemy to win.

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Llstml said:

I not saying that the Radiant would get glasses, I am saying that they could summon their Shardblade in the shape of glasses or a facemask with small holes instead of clear glass, then wear that. Shardplate's one weakness would be solved. If I had prior knowledge of Atium, then I would definitely try to think  of some way to get rid of an easy way for my enemy to win.

I mean...that could work.  But at that point, the Radiant is giving up their blade.  We don't know how Plate works, other than you can summon it or not.  You'd have to keep the Shardglasses up at all times, I'd imagine, because if you ever let it down, the Mistborn burning Atium would know, and would know when you're going to do it, and would always strike, and hit, when you do.  So you're taking out one of your main advantages (Shardblade) to shore up your weakness.  At this point, the Mistborn doesn't even need to burn Atium, and the fight becomes much more even.  Plate is awesome, but it does break, and a Mistborn can take a lot of punishment.

[Elanmorin]

 

2 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

So you're taking out one of your main advantages (Shardblade) to shore up your weakness.  

More like shore up their only weakness against a Mistborn. And if we assume that Plate is at least somewhat as configurable as the Blade then there's no reason a Radiant with knowledge of a Mistborn's capabilities wouldn't make their helm have many small holes instead of the usual slit. Same advantage as the "shardglasses" previously mentioned except now the Radiant still has their I-Win-Button available.

3 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

 At this point, the Mistborn doesn't even need to burn Atium, and the fight becomes much more even.  

Against what's essentially someone with A-Pewter, F-Gold, partial F-Steel, regenerating armor, plus whatever surges they have? The only thing a Mistborn is using Atium for is to stay alive. 

14 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

 a Mistborn can take a lot of punishment.

Not compared to a Radiant, they can't. 

All the future-sight in the world wont let me win a boxing match/knife/gun fight with a self-repairing tank unless I have a rocket launcher in my back pocket. For a Mistborn that would require an environment where they have enough to push/pull to overwhelm the Radiant's defenses as well as sufficient anchors for this purpose. 

In such an environment there's almost no way for them to lose. Without such an environment there's almost no way for them to win. Somewhere in the middle we get an insanely entertaining fight. 

 

[Tglassy]

31 minutes ago, Elanmorin said:

 

All the future-sight in the world wont let me win a boxing match/knife/gun fight with a self-repairing tank unless I have a rocket launcher in my back pocket. For a Mistborn that would require an environment where they have enough to push/pull to overwhelm the Radiant's defenses as well as sufficient anchors for this purpose. 
 

I'd disagree with that, for reasons stated above.  Future Sight wins all.  If there's only one exhaust pipe in the entire space station that would allow for the space station to blow up, the Mistborn would hit it like bulls eyeing womp rats in their T-16 back home.  There only needs to be one chance for them to win, no matter how small, because that's what seeing the future does.  

 

The self repairing tanks only does so with Stormlight, and that's a finite resource.  I've said before, with Plate, it would be harder, but without, their head comes off, along with every other appendage.  

31 minutes ago, Elanmorin said:

 

More like shore up their only weakness against a Mistborn. And if we assume that Plate is at least somewhat as configurable as the Blade then there's no reason a Radiant with knowledge of a Mistborn's capabilities wouldn't make their helm have many small holes instead of the usual slit. Same advantage as the "shardglasses" previously mentioned except now the Radiant still has their I-Win-Button available.
 

We cannot assume anything about Plate, because living plate has only been shown in past visions.  That visor slot is the plate's only weakness.  If they were able to to "Reconfigure" the plate so they could both see and not have that weakness, they wouldn't wait for a Mistborn to do so.  They'd just do it and make it a standard addition.

 

And if we're going to start going down the "I brought my attack dog with a built in Force Field",  "Well I brought my dinosaur, which eats forcefield dogs" path, then the Mistborn gets a Medallion that grants Feruchemical Steel, Feruchemical Pewter and Feruchemcial Gold and wins all fights ever due to compounding.  Or a Hemalurgic Spike that grants the same.  

 

This is supposed to be looking at a Base Mistborn vs a Base user of any SINGLE magic system.  I had originally included all 18 known metals, as that is the MIstborn's full power without any gimmicks.  They technically get more, as Atium can be combined with any metal and, presumably, so can Trellium and Ettmetal, but we don't know what those do.  Somewhere down the line someone decided I should be limited to what is in the books, but I don't understand that.  Just because Mistborn didn't have access to Chromium in the books didn't mean they didn't have them.  Spook likely would have had access, the man reigned a hundred years and Harmony directed him to find the other metals.  A Mistborn with all sixteen base metals plus Atium is at the very least a match for Knight Radiant, though its possible a lvl 5 Radiant would win out, as we've never seen one, and it's possible some orders would do better than others due to Surge combinations.  But with Chromium and Duralamin, I just don't see a Knight Radiant winning.  Pretty much ever.  A Duralumin enhanced Pewter Punch would very likely break shard plate and keep on going.  Vin headbutted a man and his HEAD EXPLODED.  And she was barely dazed.  And she wasn't even using her full strength to do so.  Shardplate is strong, but we don't even know how strong living plate is, and we do know regular shard plate can be cracked by someone falling a really, really long way and kicking it, like Kaladin did in the arena.  He had no extra strength, just more weight.  

[StanLemon]

Wile I still think a base Mistborn would lose against a 5th Ideal Radiant, with the exception of the Vin/Kaladin debate because I still think Vin definitely has shown greater combat abilities than Kaladin has so far, one very important tool a Mistborn would have is Bendalloy. They could make a time bubble, think about their next action for a moment and reposition as needed. That would be very confusing for a Radiant to deal with. 

Also, (this is a big hypothetical if so it shouldn't hold much weight in this debate) if aluminum works like some of us have hypothesized on the forums that cancel out unwanted Investiture with practice based on WoB. Then a Mistborn could potentially cancel out Surge effects applied to them.

Edit: also one thing I'm curious about is why so many people think a Radiant is faster than a Pewter burning Mistborn. I cant remember any times a Radiant has shown greater feats of speed without Abrasion. Also having Stormlight doesn't confer all the same benefits as Pewter, it makes a Radiant stronger, faster and tougher like Pewter does and it allows healing, but it lacks the balance, dexterity, and precision of Pewter 

Edited January 11, 2020 by StanLemon

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

If you don't believe Stormlight grants a Pewter-like effect,  reread the 4 v 1 duel in WOR. Kaladin's performance in this demonstrates the advantages granted by Stormlight,  increases in speed, dexterity and precision but not power so much. A Stormlight enhanced punch won't likely kill an unarmored man like a Thug would but it would hurt him pretty bad. And speaking of that duel, Kaladin lashed himself many times to fall toward the Shardbearer,  hitting hard enough for him to break both his ankles and both his legs. How high a building would you have to jump off of to shatter both legs and ankles upon falling?  5 + stories maybe?  Anyway I think people may be downplaying the force applied by that kick. An unarmored man taking that kick in the back dies instantly, his spine shattered.  It only cracked the Plate, not shattered it. 

@Tglassy

I think you're giving Atium a tad too much credit.  If it were a regular Radiant going up against an Atium Misting,  the Radiant wins because there's too many ways to checkmate them. No maneuverability,  no defense against surges. A Mistborn burning Atium has a better chance because they can move in ways that increase their options.  You have a chance of the one shot with the right weapon (their traditional fighting load, glass knives and coins won't be sufficient). It still would be difficult.  Future sight is all well and good but atium only sees a couple seconds into the future. Prolonged battles aren't going to favor the Mistborn using Atium as a crutch. A Knight in full armor? The guy doesn't have the weaponry to one shot the Radiant.  I'm sorry but Vin trying to headbutt a guy in armor leaves Vin with a split skull, pewter or no, duraluminum plus pewter or no. So what does the Mistborn do once they get in close,  hit that one in a million shot and the Radiant doesn't die?