Skybreaker oaths (explained via Lady Justice)

[Karger]

Unlike the average person I am profoundly grateful for skybreakers both in the real world and in the world of Roshar.  Individuals involved in the practice of law including lawyers, cops, and judges are often portrayed in popular media as arrogant, confusing, unfair, or indifferent.  Sometimes this is warranted.  Institutions and individuals responsible for preserving and carrying out the law are just as prone to failure as anyone or anthing else and deserve recrimination when their failures hurt people.  At the same time though law enforcement has created an era in which assaults, rapes, thefts, and murder are all increasingly rare.  With that out of the way I am grateful for the Rosharan skybreakers for an entirely different reason.  This reason is that they clearly explain their code and oaths as soon as asked.  The skybreaker oaths that we understand are

I will put the law before all else

I swear to follow(insert chosen code)

The Ideal of Crusade(The skybreaker completes a chosen quest)

Interestingly the personification of lady justice also has three symbols associated with her.  Her sword, her scales, and her blindfold.

According to Wikipedia

The sword represented authority in ancient times, and conveys the idea that justice can be swift and final.^[10]

The scales represent the weighing of evidence, and the scales lack a foundation in order to signify that evidence should stand on its own.

The blindfold represents impartiality, the ideal that justice should be applied without regard to wealth, power, or other status

The first oath gives Szeth authority to administer justice he demonstrates this with Nightblood.  The second oath is a bit more complicated however it could be interpreted that the code that he eventually decides to follow must stand on its own merits and be self contained.  Finally the blindfold indicates that when Szeth goes on his chosen crusade he will not be able to stay his hand because of new circumstances or personal entanglements but must rather carry out justice without regard for his own inclinations.

Interestingly lady justice has another symbol although this one is less common.  In some depictions she wears the clothing associated with Rome's ruling class to indicate her status and accordion to a proverb her dedication to peace.   "Cedant arma togae," which means "Let arms (war) give way to the toga (civil power)."  Perhaps this is some indication of the final ideal?

Also my pattern of radiant oaths can be found here.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Karger

[Frustration]

What I find interesting is that no Skybreaker has said the fifth Ideal in like 500 years are they lazy or is the fifth Ideal just that hard.

[ftl]

Ideals are hard, and get harder. You don't just have to say it, you have to mean it and live it. Kaladin still can't say the fourth ideal, for example.

[+robardin]

The Fifth Ideal (of five) of the Skybreakers is known; they listed all five Ideals to Szeth when they enrolled him as an acolyte in Chapter 90 of Oathbringer:

Quote

"We can... know what the Ideals are?" Szeth asked. For some reason, he'd thought they would be hidden from him.

"Of course," Ki said. "You will find no games here, Szeth-son-Neturo." [Ki goes on to list all five Ideals]

Skybreakers don't obscure their Ideals, since the highspren will be the one to adjudicate when the Radiant has embraced it correctly at a Spiritual level and is not just mouthing the words. While the advancing in Ideals we see from Kaladin (Windrunner) and Lift (Edgedancer) has required moments of self-discovery and personal growth, and Shallan's Ideals are Truths about herself that she admits to herself that she'd been denying, a Skybreaker's path is not one of discovery but of readiness.

The Fifth Ideal is the Ideal of Law, basically that the one the Skybreaker will follow as the source of truth as per the Third Ideal (which Szeth has settled on Dalinar for) is him/herself.

Curiously, while Nale himself is the only Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal to have reached it in centuries (meaning he's the only one around right now, as an immortal Herald), he still adhered to the local laws while hunting down Ym and releasing Lift when a revived Gawx-turned-Prime voided the writ he had for her execution. So his own mandate, to himself, includes the parameters that he continue to respect the local laws of wherever he is - he's not quite a Judge Dredd "I Am The Law" figure. And Brandon has commented that that is something that could be different between Skybreakers.

Edited December 18, 2019 by robardin

[Karger]

On 12/17/2019 at 8:52 PM, Booknerd said:

What I find interesting is that no Skybreaker has said the fifth Ideal in like 500 years are they lazy or is the fifth Ideal just that hard.

I believe that current Skybreaker goals make swearing the 5th ideal impossible.

[GlowingChamaeleon]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I believe that current Skybreaker goals make swearing the 5th ideal impossible.

Is this due to their choice in OB? 

But I guess I understand it as society on Roshar is far different from what it was when there were more full-fledged Radiants and thus anyone becoming a Skybreaker has a difficult time going beyond that. As well as feeling they don't deserve it with Nale's expectations/example well beyond their ability level/beliefs.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Szeth the Truthless said:

Is this due to their choice in OB?

More their mission before hand of killing good people.  Ideally law should work in such a way as to make that unnecessary.

[agrabes]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

More their mission before hand of killing good people.  Ideally law should work in such a way as to make that unnecessary.

I think that has some contribution, I think the other major factor is the type of recruits and leadership they were getting.  There is a WoB out there saying that Skybreakers can interpret this ideal differently.  It's equally valid for a Skybreaker to take a generally good path of upholding justice and fairness and for a Skybreaker to go down the Judge Dredd path so long as they sincerely believe it.  So, I don't think it's inconsistent with their mission of killing proto-radiants to be a full fledged 5th Ideal Skybreaker.

I think it's just the types of candidates that Nale is bringing in that are generally not of high enough quality.  In a lot of the scenes where you see Nale with his acolytes, they just want to kill people.  I can't remember whether this was in Edgedancer or one of the interludes, but Nale has to hold them back from just killing people without the proper paperwork.  Also Szeth's training scenes indicate that most of the Skybreaker candidates are not exactly great people.  I think we're shown these scenes to point out to us that Skybreakers (like the real world police) should normally be a mixed group with some "good cops" and some "bad cops" but Nale has selected primarily only the "bad cop" types.  People who want the power to kill and are willing to use the law to justify it after the fact.  I think this stops them from advancing far in their oaths.  The ideals of the Skybreakers are to uphold the law as their primary value.  The current group seems to uphold power and killing as their primary value, with the law a means to an end.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

and for a Skybreaker to go down the Judge Dredd path so long as they sincerely believe it.

At lower ideals sure.  At the highest ideals I don't think so.  To become law you have to understand the law's purpose, to create a harmonious society.  Killing good people does not really help with this even if it works in the short term.

[GlowingChamaeleon]

31 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

To become law you have to understand the law's purpose,

Which depends on the law. With Szeth's third and fourth ideals, I could see other Skybreakers, now or in the past, swearing the Ideal of Dedication and Crusade to less-than-honorable people/causes based on their perception and their spren. It seems that the Skybreakers now don't have the right intentions for swearing the Ideal of Law. They act without the discipline necessary and they also have to believe what they are following is truth to them. All seems to be based on the circumstances of the Radiant and perception of the spren.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Szeth the Truthless

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Szeth the Truthless said:

Which depends on the law. With Szeth's third and fourth ideals, I could see other Skybreakers, now or in the past, swearing the Ideal of Dedication and Crusade to less-than-honorable people/causes based on their perception and their spren. It seems that the Skybreakers now don't have the right intentions for swearing the Ideal of Law. They act without the discipline necessary and they also have to believe what they are following is truth to them. All seems to be based on the circumstances of the Radiant and perception of the spren.

That is great for ideals 1 through 4 but for the 5th ideal you need a real understanding of where law comes from and how it is supposed to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law#Legal_theory

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

At lower ideals sure.  At the highest ideals I don't think so.  To become law you have to understand the law's purpose, to create a harmonious society.  Killing good people does not really help with this even if it works in the short term.

I don't think there's any implication that it's necessary to agree with your interpretation of the law's purpose in order to reach the 5th Ideal.  I don't disagree that your definition of the law's purpose is a good one, but it's not the only one.  For example, I believe that someone like the Lord Ruler from Mistborn could achieve the 5th Ideal.  He was in favor of extremely strong law and order and was consistent with those laws, but was also in favor of killing good people.  If a person sincerely believes in a system of law and order set up to serve a purpose they believe in, then I think that person can achieve the 5th Ideal of the Skybreakers.

[GlowingChamaeleon]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

That is great for ideals 1 through 4 but for the 5th ideal you need a real understanding of where law comes from and how it is supposed to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law#Legal_theory

Which depends on the Law the specific Skybreakers follows? Because a different, possibly unorthodox, government could go against another nation's laws while the Skybreakers identifies with that government's form of law or even having a society that has promoted/evolved a law that goes against what we might perceive law to be. With Skybreakers' placement now, it does seem difficult to swear the fifth oath as they might be morally apprehensive to murder. Unless possibly brainwashed/manipulated to think death is the proper consequence for even the slightest transgressions.

[Karger]

19 minutes ago, agrabes said:

For example, I believe that someone like the Lord Ruler from Mistborn could achieve the 5th Ideal.  He was in favor of extremely strong law and order and was consistent with those laws, but was also in favor of killing good people.  If a person sincerely believes in a system of law and order set up to serve a purpose they believe in, then I think that person can achieve the 5th Ideal of the Skybreakers.

What you are talking about is the utilitarian answer to the question.  I (and most people currently living in the western world) prefer the Natural law argument IE laws are based on the " Naturally occurring" IE law should be based on principles like equality, freedom, and impartiality that exist even in the absence of government.  Nale's view is far too narrow , I think this is actually his Herald's madness, and since the skybreakers see him as the ultimate authority over laws and legality they follow him lead in this and so believe in a view of law that overemphasizes trust and compliance.  Many of them may doubt it is possible to swear the third ideal.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Chiberty]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I (and most people currently living in the western world) prefer the Natural law argument IE laws are based on the " Naturally occurring" IE law should be based on principles like equality, freedom, and impartiality that exist even in the absence of government.

Alas, Alethkar is in the East.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

I’m not sure why people the Skybreakers are so noble . The current Skybreakers are pretty much sociopaths that kill anyone that violates the laws they are enforcing . With no remorse . The little girl that drew a knife on Nale and he Rammed a shardblade into her chest , and tossed her like trash . For stealing come on sne was starving . But they don’t care . If there is a Proto Radiant around they would kill him if he was jaywalking . 

         As far as them following the law . I have to honestly say that is the most easiest thing to do . The law is fluid , it means different things to different people. The Alethi have laws , the Shin have laws , and the Aziz have laws . What might be illegal in Azish lands might be legal in Alethkar . So what happens when the Skybreakers go to somewhere where organized crime , a thieves guild or Corrupt politicians control the law making . It could lead to the Skybreakers doing some horrendous things and going well it’s ok cause it’s the Law. So the Skybreakers are following Nale who is choosing to recognize the Dawnsingers as the original inhabitants or Roshar . We don’t know if he will back the Fused or if some of the freed parshendi break away from Odium. And Nale chooses to follow them . But I just don’t have any faith that Nale will of any benifit to any protagnist in this story. 

       Szeth has chosen to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. So basically what Dalinar says is law . If and when he cleanses Shinovar, it May make it Easier for him to Swear the 5th ideal . The one where the Skybreaker becomes the law . If I’m interpreting the concept right , he will literally be the will of Dalinar . “ The right hand of God “ which should be a lot easier than trying to become the embodiment of all the laws of Alethkar or worse all the Laws of the Azish for example . Which do you think is  easier getting your mind into following one mans ideals or following hundreds of laws in a specific land . 

[Karger]

16 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

right , he will literally be the will of Dalinar

I do not think that is how it works.

On 12/14/2019 at 8:46 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Interestingly lady justice has another symbol although this one is less common.  In some depictions she wears the clothing associated with Rome's ruling class to indicate her status and accordion to a proverb her dedication to peace.   "Cedant arma togae," which means "Let arms (war) give way to the toga (civil power)."  Perhaps this is some indication of the final ideal?

 

[agrabes]

On 12/23/2019 at 0:00 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

What you are talking about is the utilitarian answer to the question.  I (and most people currently living in the western world) prefer the Natural law argument IE laws are based on the " Naturally occurring" IE law should be based on principles like equality, freedom, and impartiality that exist even in the absence of government.  Nale's view is far too narrow , I think this is actually his Herald's madness, and since the skybreakers see him as the ultimate authority over laws and legality they follow him lead in this and so believe in a view of law that overemphasizes trust and compliance.  Many of them may doubt it is possible to swear the third ideal.

That's the issue though - I don't think that in the world of the Stormlight Archive the Skybreakers order subscribes to the Natural Law argument you're talking about.  There may be some philosophers who've reached that belief, but there's no implication in the books that it is actually a restriction on how the Skybreakers function.  In fact, Sanderson has implied the opposite - that the Skybreakers are an order who have significantly differing interpretations of what is right.  I think the fact that Nale exists as a 5th Ideal Skybreaker proves that.  If his actions and intent were in conflict with the 5th Ideal, he would have broken his oath and lost his power as a Radiant.

It comes down to the nature of philosophy - philosophers can argue that the proper way for law and society to be established is on the basis of natural law and that there are certain rights which all people must have by nature.  That's a fine argument, as far as it goes.  It doesn't mean that it's a law of physics though - people are free to establish human laws that are contrary to what might be considered natural law.  Societies built on laws that we would today consider a violation of certain freedoms or that enforce things many of us in western society would consider inequalities today can be long lasting, stable, and good for most of the people living within them.  Natural Law is a theory of philosophy, not an actual set of laws and there is debate among philosophers as to what the correct "natural law" is.  Don't get me wrong, the philosophy of Natural Law has done a lot of good for us here in the real world.  I just don't think that it's solid enough or codified enough to be something that is going to make an appearance in the Stormlight Archive as a hard coded morality ruleset for the Skybreakers.

[+Oltux72]

On 23/12/2019 at 6:31 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

That is great for ideals 1 through 4 but for the 5th ideal you need a real understanding of where law comes from and how it is supposed to work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law#Legal_theory

Are you understanding this that the fifth ideal means to pick a school of legal theory and to act accordingly even in the absence of specifc laws? That is to understand it not as setting the law but being bound by it?

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is to understand it not as setting the law but being bound by it?

I believe that is what Nale is doing.  No specific law makes him kill radiants but taking the initiative in that way did not break his oaths.

[Subvisual Haze]

There's an interesting tendency for people to conflate the abstract concept of justice and the administration of law, probably owing to our slapping the name Justice on our legal system and officers of law.  Law in the ideal sense is a method for seeking justice in society, but true justice is a higher ideal than the often flawed and biased system of law can possibly achieve.  As we've currently seen them displayed, the Skybreakers seem an order focused on law above all else.  It's an interesting question how much of this owes to Nale's current madness and dominance of the order, and how the order may have differed in the past.

Of course, justice being such an abstract idea, the meaning of justice has varied extensively in different cultural contexts.  For example Justice in the Bible as championed by the earliest prophets (Amos, Micah, Isaiah), repeatedly defines God's Justice in the context of advocating for and defending the most vulnerable members of society (widows, orphans, aliens) who are often taken advantage of in the courts of law by the powerful.  Because of the nature of abuse of power, law itself can function as a method of injustice.  In fact, if you're viewing Justice in the Biblical context, you could easily make the case that the Windrunners are the true order of justice with their 2nd oath directing them to "protect those who cannot protect themselves"

[Karger]

On 12/31/2019 at 0:37 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

There's an interesting tendency for people to conflate the abstract concept of justice and the administration of law, probably owing to our slapping the name Justice on our legal system and officers of law.  Law in the ideal sense is a method for seeking justice in society, but true justice is a higher ideal than the often flawed and biased system of law can possibly achieve

All of this is true but I don't think that anyone can really administer what you call "true justice" on anything other then an individual scale.  To institute Justice on a wide scale you need to have some kind of orderly process.  Paradoxically if you were to try and run a society by Windrunner ideals you would get into trouble as Windrunners would be unable to administer punishments that stop abuses of power and their rulings would be wildly inconsistent.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Asrael]

I really like the concept of the Skybreakers, and I really dislike/don't see how Machiavellian ends-justify-the-means thinking gets linked with the order. I know that's what the Skybreakers are currently doing, but we've been expressly told that the order as it currently exists is corrupted. 

[Negative_Null]

That makes it hard to judge how they actually work. What with the new info from the Radiant quiz, I think that the ancient Skybreakers struggled with the same questions that are above; what justice really means in context of the law. It also seems like they set up a sort of "high law" for the Radiants that they could have used for an Ideal. Brandon didn't say this right out but I got that sense from it. I think Nale becoming the Law really means that he takes responsibility for whatever goes wrong within his jurisdiction, which is Roshar. Just how Wax thinks on Scadrial (and some of the best police officers I've talked to), and sees it as his duty to stop enforce justice in all of Roshar because it's his responsibility, as opposed to earlier oaths that put responsibility on the laws you swear to

[+Wax]

The fifth ideal is that the skybreaker becomes the law itself.

How would that work - ie as Szeth has said he would follow the rules by Dalinar.  So, how does he become Dalinar?