Dalinar and the Rift

[Philomath]

Am I the only one who thinks that Dalinar isn’t totally guilty for what happened at the Rift? I really just feel like he is the product of an incredibly violent culture. He was basically raised and used by his brother to be the Warlord. Vorinism reveres soldiers. The whole belief system is that the afterlife will continue to be one big battle to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls. Will the truth of what happened to Evi at the rift be shocking? Yes. But do I blame Dalinar? Not completely. Conquest, brute strength, and force are par for the course in Alethkar. Sadeas certainly didn’t mind what Dalinar did. And in regards to Adolin and Renarin learning about Evi. It’s not like Dalinar sought her out specifically to kill her. Yes it was by his hand. But it was far from his intent. I just find it hard to hold him totally accountable for what happened given the culture he was a part of. 

[Okdes]

Just because he behaved within the bounds of his culture doesn't absolve him. That's a very dangerous trap to fall in. As for Sadeas, that man was universally recognized as a bad person, so not the best benchmark. 

[Philomath]

Oh I don’t think his actions were in any way right or good. Just that culturally, no one should be shocked or surprised or upset that it happened. And it isn’t Dalinar’s fault that he was a product of that. Actually, who Dalinar chooses to become (with some magical help, but even after the memories return) is a testament of who he really could be without some of the Alethi cultural influence. 

[Darvys]

Not guilty ? Only if you shift the blame to the effect of the Thrill, which he had little to no control over. Trying to use culture as a cope out though is a no no in my book, in spite of everything that helped shape you, responsibility still ultimately lies with you, culture and upbringing make his actions understandable but not forgivable, hundreds/thousands of innocents still died, Evi is only a small part of it and only relevant to him and his family. The point you make is applicable to any criminal in real life, hating or despising them is pointless and small-minded, but punishment is still required.

[Calderis]

Alright. Here come some unpopular opinions. 

No, Dalinar is not guilt free, and the OP didn't say that he was... The culture does make his journey to that point understandable. 

Dalinar began to show the man he would become at the Rift though. He realized the horror of what was happening and tried to stop it but Sadeas had gleefully pushed forward to a point that stopping things was not an option. 

These are not mistakes. It's atrocious all around. Unforgivable? No. 

The only way that something is unforgivable is if people choose not to forgive. Forgiveness is a choice. 

And punishment? For what good? Punishment is not justice. Punishment serves two purposes. Either deterrence of an action, or the removal of an element unable to be rehabilitated. "Justice" is to often "just" only in that it is a justification of actions against someone so that those enacting punishment are not as monstrous as the person being punished. 

In an event such as the Rift there can be no "justice." Those people are dead and gone, and absolutely nothing will bring them back or alleviate the burden of loss from anyone who survived them. 

Punishing Dalinar would not be justice, it would be vengeance, and those are not the same thing. 

After the Rift, Dalinar chose to run from his actions. First through drink, then via the Nightwatcher. Now though? Now he's faced those memories, accepted them, and not only decided he must be a better man, but is ensuring that everyone will know of the atrocities he committed. He will never repeat it. He will not willingly let anyone else repeat them. 

If anyone is putting in the work for forgiveness for an action of the magnitude of the Rift it's Dalinar. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger]

The beliefs that we can or can not truly blame Dalinar says more about us then it does about him but here goes. 

I don't think that Dalinar can move on or become a better person without accepting responsibility for his actions their.  I do think that extenuating circumstances ie the thrill, his exhaustion, Sadeas's  misinterpretation of his orders are extenuating circumstances.  I also think that Sadeas's argument that doing this would save lives further down the road by discouraging more rebellions is probably accurate(if horrible and evil) and that the culture that Dalinar lived in would not condemn him for his actions(this is the same culture that made Dalinar embarrassed that he had not killed a child). 

Tanalon's actions were completely unjustifiable he set up and betrayed a man who was trying to help him and who he owed his life to.  Yes that man had murdered his father but from what we know of him that same father would have condemned his son's actions.  Tanalon betrayed his promises to Dalinar both real and implied and slaughtered men whose lives had been given to him as an act of trust I was disguised with the man.  If Dalinar had rode in crushed his armies and chopped his head off with his fauther's blade after this I think most of us would have been fine with it.

Still Dalinar's actions did result in the unnecessary death of an entire city's worth of people many of them innocent woman and children that is not something that I can just ignore and I do think that he bears some guilt for their deaths.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

 

This is like saying that Hitler bears no responsibility for the Holocaust because the German society of Nazism wouldn’t blame him for it.

Dalinar bears responsibility; and it makes him a better character for taking it. If he didn’t he would become someone like Moash who is an absolute idiot.

[Karger]

41 minutes ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

This is like saying that Hitler bears no responsibility for the Holocaust because the German society of Nazism wouldn’t blame him for it.

Hitler was responsible for Nazism and the society that did not blame people for the horrific acts committed during the Holocaust not the other way around.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hitler was responsible for Nazism and the society that did not blame people for the horrific acts committed during the Holocaust not the other way around.

Right, and Dalinar is responsible for the Rift.

I used an over the top example for a reason, society should never be used as an excuse for Murder.

 

[Philomath]

@Calderis Thank you for being able to say what I meant better than I could.

Dalinar is in no way guiltless. And he absolutely must take responsibility for his actions which as of now I believe he has. I guess what I was trying to say is that while he is indeed responsible for those horrible events, there was a lot outside of his control leading up to it. And it is a tragedy that society, upbringing, events could ever lead a person to be what Dalinar was.

What Dalinar did he is absolutely responsible for. And it is inexcusable. But it is also completely understandable. 

He is ,however, as Calderis pointed out, equally responsible for making the world a better place. He is at the forefront of changing the world for the better. And that started back in WoK (and before) when no one in Alethkar wanted to listen to him. Now he has world leaders working with him, high princes following him, and at least one Listener/Singer wondering what he is all about. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Philomath
Adding extra thoughts

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

Right, and Dalinar is responsible for the Rift.

I used an over the top example for a reason, society should never be used as an excuse for Murder.

 

Actually I feel what would be more applicable in your example is Dalinar as one of the german soldiers during World War 2. Not as Hitler. Germany was primed for World War 2 due to their treatment at the end of World War 1. Germany was the scape goat of the first world war, and all the other world powers ended up grinding it into the ground. That resulted in a lot of animosity, resentment, and hardships for the German people. That is a state that Hitler took advantage of, and used to further his agenda and rise to power. That resulted in the culture and society that German children selling out their parents as collaborators to be executed be seen as normal and the right thing to do. The Nuremberg Trials do show at the end of the day we are responsible for our own actions, but it doesn't change the effect the effect society and the culture has on the individuals growing up in it. Dalinar grew up in a society and culture that extoled Sadees (the sunmaker). Sadees (the sunmaker) I think would be the more applicable analogue to Hitler. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

Alright. Here come some unpopular opinions. 

No, Dalinar is not guilt free, and the OP didn't say that he was... The culture does make his journey to that point understandable. 

Dalinar began to show the man he would become at the Rift though. He realized the horror of what was happening and tried to stop it but Sadeas had gleefully pushed forward to a point that stopping things was not an option. 

These are not mistakes. It's atrocious all around. Unforgivable? No. 

The only way that something is unforgivable is if people choose not to forgive. Forgiveness is a choice. 

And punishment? For what good? Punishment is not justice. Punishment serves two purposes. Either deterrence of an action, or the removal of an element unable to be rehabilitated. "Justice" is to often "just" only in that it is a justification of actions against someone so that those enacting punishment are not as monstrous as the person being punished. 

In an event such as the Rift there can be no "justice." Those people are dead and gone, and absolutely nothing will bring them back or alleviate the burden of loss from anyone who survived them. 

Punishing Dalinar would not be justice, it would be vengeance, and those are not the same thing. 

After the Rift, Dalinar chose to run from his actions. First through drink, then via the Nightwatcher. Now though? Now he's faced those memories, accepted them, and not only decided he must be a better man, but is ensuring that everyone will know of the atrocities he committed. He will never repeat it. He will not willingly let anyone else repeat them. 

If anyone is putting in the work for forgiveness for an action of the magnitude of the Rift it's Dalinar. 

This is pretty much exactly what I think. Thanks Cal!

But still not interested in joining the hivemind!

[Karger]

16 hours ago, Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker said:

I used an over the top example for a reason, society should never be used as an excuse for Murder.

"Murder is a legal definition"(Jasnah Way of Kings)

Edited April 9, 2019 by Karger

[Numuhuku]

I think it's worth considering that Dalinar's actions at the rift are somewhat understandable. He DID try to take a peaceful route. And he WAS betrayed by the people who he offered mercy and compromise to. If Dalinar had taken Tanalan's head, and the heads of most of his officers, I don't think you could claim it was an unjust action.

But the thousands of civilians, and children, certainly didn't deserve to be burnt alive because their leader was obsessed with revenge and because Dalinar became consume by rage. Maybe Dalinar's rage had some justification by it, but that alone does not absolve Dalinar of his actions. And I think it says a lot about the man Dalinar would latter become that he's not willing to excuse his actions for the influence his culture or the thrill had on him. Burning the children of Rathalas was wrong no matter what enraged Dalinar to do it, even if his wife inexplicably ending up one of the victims of his wrath is what took Dalinar to properly recognize the horror of what he had done multiplied thousands of times over.

I don't think it's fair to compare Dalinar to Hitler, but I can't say the Blackthorne wouldn't be considered a war criminal by our modern definitions. 

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Numuhuku said:

I don't think it's fair to compare Dalinar to Hitler, but I can't say the Blackthorne wouldn't be considered a war criminal by our modern definitions. 

Depends but he might actually not be.  None signatories of the Geneva conventions are not always protected the same way and Tanalon was definitely not abiding by the rules.

[Turin Turambar]

Society does tend to dictate morality, though only to a degree. Most of the blame, therefore lies with Dalinor, though he can claim a small amount of innocence because of upbringing. 

[duladen]

IMO this is one of the big points of Oathbringer. It would have been very easy for Dalinar to place the blame for all his past mistakes and brutality upon external sources. It would be logical. It would be understandable. Despite this, he denies Odium his pain and takes ownership for these actions. Oathbringer is about failing, accepting that failure, and then taking the next step even if it’s the more difficult path.

[Numuhuku]

41 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

Society does tend to dictate morality, though only to a degree. Most of the blame, therefore lies with Dalinor, though he can claim a small amount of innocence because of upbringing. 

Mitigating circumstances to be honest. Keep in mind while Dalinar's upbringing revered warfare, they also admonished the kind of things Dalinar did enough that his actions at the Rift had to be covered up. His society might have encouraged him in some regards, but he also had plenty others that would have let him know that what he did might have been wrong. Note Dalinar decided entirely on his own accord that murdering Tanalan as a child was an immoral action, before he had the influence of his wife to be less blood thirsty. Dalinar had the standing to recognize that burning the reach was an immoral action, but instead decided to embrace his anger at being betrayed.

Dalinar's culpability might be softened by degrees due by circumstances, but his conduct as the Blackthorne is still monstrous by many degrees and standards. Him accepting responsibility for that despite it all is a sign of his moral character. And excusing his actions too much is a blight against his courage to accept responsibility for his actions.

[Philomath]

I just want to clarify that I think Dalinar’s arc in Oathbringer culminating in “You cannot have my pain” is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. I love his arc. I love him accepting responsibility. But he truly does not have sole responsibility for that tragedy. Gavilar literally sent him there to clean up the mess he couldn’t solve. Gavilar knew bad things were going to happen. 

And I think the biggest part of the event I don’t hold Dalinar completely culpable for is Evi’s death. Everything else sure he can take the blame. But he did not mean to kill her. I’m not sure how Adolin and Renarin will take it, but given everything surrounding that situation, her death ultimately is a horribly tragic accident.

Sorry. I feel like I’m not explaining myself well. And also I hope you all know that I respect different opinions and can say we may just agree to disagree on this. Thanks all for the discussion. 

[Jorr]

I for one am with you, Philomath Guilt is dependent on intent. Claiming otherwise would mean loose stones, avalanches or diseases can be guilty just by causing death. But guilt is meaningless without human context and this is why it's intent that matters, not causation.

Dalinar bears guilt for the innocent lives he decided to destroy (considering of course the effect of the Thrill). But he does not bear guilt for Evi.

[The Sovereign]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:56 PM, Calderis said:

Alright. Here come some unpopular opinions. 

No, Dalinar is not guilt free, and the OP didn't say that he was... The culture does make his journey to that point understandable. 

Dalinar began to show the man he would become at the Rift though. He realized the horror of what was happening and tried to stop it but Sadeas had gleefully pushed forward to a point that stopping things was not an option. 

These are not mistakes. It's atrocious all around. Unforgivable? No. 

The only way that something is unforgivable is if people choose not to forgive. Forgiveness is a choice. 

And punishment? For what good? Punishment is not justice. Punishment serves two purposes. Either deterrence of an action, or the removal of an element unable to be rehabilitated. "Justice" is to often "just" only in that it is a justification of actions against someone so that those enacting punishment are not as monstrous as the person being punished. 

In an event such as the Rift there can be no "justice." Those people are dead and gone, and absolutely nothing will bring them back or alleviate the burden of loss from anyone who survived them. 

Punishing Dalinar would not be justice, it would be vengeance, and those are not the same thing. 

After the Rift, Dalinar chose to run from his actions. First through drink, then via the Nightwatcher. Now though? Now he's faced those memories, accepted them, and not only decided he must be a better man, but is ensuring that everyone will know of the atrocities he committed. He will never repeat it. He will not willingly let anyone else repeat them. 

If anyone is putting in the work for forgiveness for an action of the magnitude of the Rift it's Dalinar. 

Cal, what part of this is supposed to be the unpopular opinion? Also, please get out of my head... it is unsettling to read someone lay out essentially my exact thoughts on something.

 

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker]

13 hours ago, Numuhuku said:

I don't think it's fair to compare Dalinar to Hitler, but I can't say the Blackthorne wouldn't be considered a war criminal by our modern definitions. 

I wasn’t comparing Dalinar to Hitler, I was using an over the top example to show that the idea that killing thousands of non-combatants is never justifiable.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Cal, what part of this is supposed to be the unpopular opinion?

Honestly? All of it if I'd worded it differently. 

I could have just said "justice is a lie to make people feel better, punishment is pointless, and anything can be forgiven."

Remove the nuance and context, and well... Many people trying to say the exact same thing as I did in less companionable settings are painted in... Very unkind terms. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger]

15 hours ago, Numuhuku said:

Mitigating circumstances to be honest. Keep in mind while Dalinar's upbringing revered warfare, they also admonished the kind of things Dalinar did enough that his actions at the Rift had to be covered up. His society might have encouraged him in some regards, but he also had plenty others that would have let him know that what he did might have been wrong

From my understanding everyone knew Dalinar destroyed the rift he did not cover it up.  He covered his motivations because he did not want it to interfere with his troops discipline or moral by making them think of themselves as the bad guys.

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

From my understanding everyone knew Dalinar destroyed the rift he did not cover it up.  He covered his motivations because he did not want it to interfere with his troops discipline or moral by making them think of themselves as the bad guys.

I'll add even further, what was covered up was not the burning of the rift, it was Evi's involvement. Dalinar didn't want Evi to be branded a traitor, so it was changed to a kidnapping. (just in case to avoid confusion, I am agreeing with you Karger, but just adding additional information)