Dalinar and the Rift

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

From my understanding everyone knew Dalinar destroyed the rift he did not cover it up.  He covered his motivations because he did not want it to interfere with his troops discipline or moral by making them think of themselves as the bad guys.

Exactly. The death and destruction of an entire city isn't something you can just cover up. 

The official story of how and why it happened was changed, and Evi's death in particular was lied about... 

But the destruction of the Rift still kept Dalinar as the hero in everyone's mind. Alethi society had no issue with that scale of slaughter. 

[Numuhuku]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Exactly. The death and destruction of an entire city isn't something you can just cover up. 

The official story of how and why it happened was changed, and Evi's death in particular was lied about... 

But the destruction of the Rift still kept Dalinar as the hero in everyone's mind. Alethi society had no issue with that scale of slaughter. 

I'd have to reread, but I think the official story was that "nominally" the fire started accidentally, but given the Rifts traitorous actions (including assassinating Evi in the official narrative) it was considered totally justified.

You are right though. Nobody would come out and straight justify it directly and openly, but it was pretty obvious that lots of people had an inkling it was intentional.

[equinox]

6 hours ago, Numuhuku said:

I'd have to reread, but I think the official story was that "nominally" the fire started accidentally, but given the Rifts traitorous actions (including assassinating Evi in the official narrative) it was considered totally justified.

Ob, ch. 76:

Quote

“She did not betray us,” Dalinar snapped. “Keep the discovery of her body quiet, Kalami. Tell the people … tell them my wife was slain by an assassin last night. I will swear the few elites who know to secrecy. Let everyone think she died a hero, and that the destruction of the city today was done in retribution.” Dalinar set his jaw. Earlier today, the soldiers of his army—so carefully trained over the years to resist pillaging and the slaughter of civilians—had burned a city to the ground. It would ease their consciences to think that first, the highlady had been murdered.

It was clearly not an accident. However, it's again mentioned that soldiers in Dalinar's army are trained (!) not to slaughter civilians. Apparently it is usual behavior of other troops to do so.

Now, I have to think further on @Calderis' words.. There is no justice and anything can be forgiven. Hm. I like this way of thinking very much, but I'm not sure my brain can fully grasp this notion.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, equinox said:

Now, I have to think further on @Calderis' words.. There is no justice and anything can be forgiven. Hm. I like this way of thinking very much, but I'm not sure my brain can fully grasp this notion.

See... That's why this is a complicated issue. 

People want things to be simple and they aren't. Justice... Should be about seeing things made right... Which isn't always possible. Just because anything can be forgiven doesn't mean that it will or should. 

Context of actions is important. The mindset and likelihood of repeated action on the part of the guilty party is important. 

Every situation is unique and treating them all as simple codified rules to follow and punish if not followed is just flawed, and coincidentally why I find Nale to be a storming monster. 

As I seem to being saying a lot lately. Black and white morality works great on paper, but reality is shades of gray.

[equinox]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Context of actions is important. The mindset and likelihood of repeated action on the part of the guilty party is important. 

Every situation is unique and treating them all as simple codified rules to follow and punish if not followed is just flawed, and coincidentally why I find Nale to be a storming monster. 

I guess we do not think so differently after all. I do not think that following the law word by word (or even worse using the law to "justify" an action as Nale does) is just. However, I still think that justice and vengeance are two different things. Sometimes justice does provide adequate punishment, but not vengeance. And Dalinar experienced certain punishment. I don't think I could live with the voices of the dead in my head (including his my own husband/wife)... 

[Stormfather-in-Law]

On 4/9/2019 at 8:26 PM, Numuhuku said:

I don't think it's fair to compare Dalinar to Hitler, but I can't say the Blackthorne wouldn't be considered a war criminal by our modern definitions. 

Hitler lost. Bomber Harris of the UK would likely have been called one had the war gone the other way. Or the U.S.'s LeMay of the Japanese firebombing campaign, who went so far as to admit it:

Quote

I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.

Stalin, who won, would easily have met those same definitions - in many respects, the man was more of a monster than Hitler himself. Ramifications? None.

In-world Jasnah has the right of it as mentioned above: murder is a legal definition. War crimes are that too, but are often used for political reasons as much as for what was done.

[ShardShaper]

         I do not think that Evi's death at the rift was Dalinar's fault. That being said, the destruction of the rift WAS his fault, and that was wrong. Also, he went to the nightwatcher so he could forget about her, which was an insult to her memory, so that WAS his fault

[Subvisual Haze]

There's a reason Cultivation referred to Dalinar as a child of Honor and Odium.  The two are not necessarily opposing forces and can work in tandum.  For example Dalinar punishing an oathbreaking vassal who attacked him under the flag of truce while then fulfilling his own promise of retribution.  It was morally wrong to burn a city, but simultaneously a perfectly honorable thing for him to do because he was fulfilling an oath to punish oathbreakers.

(Also, Sadeas was involved somehow in the attempt on Dalinar's life.  The passing comments about his army arriving earlier than expected indicate to me that he was involved in the plot and planned to have Dalinar killed and then torch the city himself to cover up his involvement.  He also conveniently oversaw the execution of the scouts who led Dalinar into the trap to cover up even more loose ends.)

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

(Also, Sadeas was involved somehow in the attempt on Dalinar's life.  The passing comments about his army arriving earlier than expected indicate to me that he was involved in the plot and planned to have Dalinar killed and then torch the city himself to cover up his involvement.  He also conveniently oversaw the execution of the scouts who led Dalinar into the trap to cover up even more loose ends.)

I doubt that Sadeas was involved.  He was loyal to Gavilar at the time (we know that he was the decoy during the attempt on the kings life) it strikes me as odd that such an individual who is willing and expects to die on behalf of a King would be willing to kill said King's brother for no real gain.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, ShardShaper said:

         I do not think that Evi's death at the rift was Dalinar's fault. That being said, the destruction of the rift WAS his fault, and that was wrong. Also, he went to the nightwatcher so he could forget about her, which was an insult to her memory, so that WAS his fault

He did not go to the Nightwatcher to forget about her. 

He asked for forgiveness. He did accept when Cultivation said what she would do... But that was not his goal when he journeyed there. 

[ShardShaper]

Meh... he still did it.

[Karger]

43 minutes ago, ShardShaper said:

Meh... he still did it.

Intentionality matters.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Karger