Jasnah V Kaladin

[Calderis]

Considering the way Ranged Soulcasting seems to work (After the two men in the alley, Shallan's narrative shows Jasnah come back from a trance like state) I don't think that trying to do it mid-combat is a good idea unless you are absolutely sure it's going to end the fight. 

Jasnah appears to have been viewing them in Shadesmar, leaving her body completely vulnerable. 

Which is why I go back to "she'd just transition and soulcast him from the Cognitive" 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

He has a shardblade so he can cut rocks out of the ground if he needs to and can't find them.

I agree, which I mentioned, but that takes time during combat. You have to cut at an angle because otherwise you can't grip the rock to pull it out (as mentioned by Szeth and Dalinar). Also since it would be the ground, he would also have to cut at an angle to remove the stone at all. Basically they would have to be triangular pieces, and that is assuming large chunks. Smaller pieces would be more difficult. So Kaladin would need time to cut at the right angle and then use lashings to withdraw them, wasting stormlight, to then use more stormlight to launch them. Seems counterproductive to me. 

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering the way Ranged Soulcasting seems to work (After the two men in the alley, Shallan's narrative shows Jasnah come back from a trance like state) I don't think that trying to do it mid-combat is a good idea unless you are absolutely sure it's going to end the fight. 

Jasnah appears to have been viewing them in Shadesmar, leaving her body completely vulnerable. 

Which is why I go back to "she'd just transition and soulcast him from the Cognitive" 

Thing is we see Jasnah range soulcast multiple times during the battle of Thaylenah. She soulcasted the ground out from under an enemies feet without touching it, as well as the sheet of oil in front of another. I feel like there is a third but I would have to check. 

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is we see Jasnah range soulcast multiple times during the battle of Thaylenah. She soulcasted the ground out from under an enemies feet without touching it, as well as the sheet of oil in front of another. I feel like there is a third but I would have to check. 

I am not taking anything that happens during the perpendicularity as normal ability. 

[Bigmikey357]

I wasn't thinking about the 'wind sense'. Syl is of CR origin. She may not be able to impart that vision onto Kaladin like Ivory does for Jasnah but she can see enough to maybe predict where Jasnah is reforming a mini-perpendicularity. This wouldn't be unique to Kaladin by the way. I think all Radiants highly progressed enough could do the same. 

Roshar is rocky as ever a planet as there is. Kaladin has a weapon that treats rock like air. He'd be wearing Shardplate and could just pulverize a rock face and make rocks that way. And it's not limited to rocks. With a lashing anything he can reach becomes a weapon. Controlling the trajectory of the weapons in question is irrelevant. As long as there's a reasonable chance it will connect Jasnah has to account for it. Sure she can dodge if he threw one weapon at a time. What if he threw a knife from each hand, one high and one low, applying a triple lashing to the first knife and one to the second?  Say he's applied a reverse lashing to account for any return fire from Jasnah? Hell, Kaladin could pick up a handful of rocks, fly up 20 feet or so, and start chucking them with or without lashings. Jasnah in Shardplate may be able to ignore some of the objects launched and dodge others she may see as non-threatening, but she cannot be sure which will be which. 

Look at Dalinar in the flashback chapter, the one where he's taking out catapults on the heights. In regular, dead Shardplate he's destroying catapults 40 feet or more away by chucking fist-sized rocks at them. This ain't slow-pitch. Now apply this to Kaladin. Add a multiplier for Radiancy, a multiplier for living Shardplate, and another multiplier for however many lashings Kaladin can apply to any object and those projectiles are flying nearly as fast as bullets. Can Jasnah dodge a bullet in Shardplate? How many hits can she take before sections break? How fast can she soulcast the projectile away or make a wall to block them? If Kaladin is smart he won't leave her much time. Like I said, there are ways to make her use Stormlight via Soulcasting or Transportation.

Now, all this is assuming Jasnah's soulcast range isn't something ridiculous, my definition being anything over 10 feet away from her. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I am not taking anything that happens during the perpendicularity as normal ability. 

Touche. I did find a scene which could potentially be interpreted as ranged soulcasting but I recognize it is a loose interpretation. I will dig further into soulcasting when I have the chance to and get back to you. I have included the page and pertinent portion of the scene below for your reference

Way of Kings Page 451

The chained gemstone on the man’s palm flashed. The wall vanished, turned to smoke. A Soulcaster. The dark figure glanced at Szeth. “Indeed. Our master directs that you are to use tactics similar to those you employed so well in Alethkar years ago. When you are done, you will receive further instructions.” He then exited through the opening, leaving Szeth horrified. 

(if you go before that first sentence it never says he raised his hand to the wall or touched the wall. It only says he rolls the head towards szeth. So it could be said he wasn't touching the wall, or it could be said Brandon just didn't make a point to mention it in this case.)

 

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I wasn't thinking about the 'wind sense'. Syl is of CR origin. She may not be able to impart that vision onto Kaladin like Ivory does for Jasnah but she can see enough to maybe predict where Jasnah is reforming a mini-perpendicularity. This wouldn't be unique to Kaladin by the way. I think all Radiants highly progressed enough could do the same. 

Roshar is rocky as ever a planet as there is. Kaladin has a weapon that treats rock like air. He'd be wearing Shardplate and could just pulverize a rock face and make rocks that way. And it's not limited to rocks. With a lashing anything he can reach becomes a weapon. Controlling the trajectory of the weapons in question is irrelevant. As long as there's a reasonable chance it will connect Jasnah has to account for it. Sure she can dodge if he threw one weapon at a time. What if he threw a knife from each hand, one high and one low, applying a triple lashing to the first knife and one to the second?  Say he's applied a reverse lashing to account for any return fire from Jasnah? Hell, Kaladin could pick up a handful of rocks, fly up 20 feet or so, and start chucking them with or without lashings. Jasnah in Shardplate may be able to ignore some of the objects launched and dodge others she may see as non-threatening, but she cannot be sure which will be which. 

Look at Dalinar in the flashback chapter, the one where he's taking out catapults on the heights. In regular, dead Shardplate he's destroying catapults 40 feet or more away by chucking fist-sized rocks at them. This ain't slow-pitch. Now apply this to Kaladin. Add a multiplier for Radiancy, a multiplier for living Shardplate, and another multiplier for however many lashings Kaladin can apply to any object and those projectiles are flying nearly as fast as bullets. Can Jasnah dodge a bullet in Shardplate? How many hits can she take before sections break? How fast can she soulcast the projectile away or make a wall to block them? If Kaladin is smart he won't leave her much time. Like I said, there are ways to make her use Stormlight via Soulcasting or Transportation.

Now, all this is assuming Jasnah's soulcast range isn't something ridiculous, my definition being anything over 10 feet away from her. 

Various spren have various experiences in seeing and interacting with the various realms. If Syl could easily see into the cognitive realm from the physical realm, then she would have had no problem seeing Pattern during the 3 v 1 bout with Adolin yet she was unable to. So I do not think spren can see between the realms as easily as you posit. I think it depends on the type of spren, the bond with the radiant, and the level of physical vs cognitive realm presence which I think is unique depending on the spren themselves.

edit: also again if Kaladin gets this extra warning from Syl (which as I explained I do not think is this case), Jasnah would get the very same from Ivory

Good point regarding punching the rocks to break them up to create projectiles. Except Jasnah would not just be standing there while he did that. She would be taking action while Kaladin breaks up the rocks, and has to lash each one individually. Jasnah could also soulcast a cloud over her obscuring kaladin's sight, screwing up his aim even more. Based on kaladin's power, other than usually aluminum, I do not see why Jasnah would voluntarily create objects to throw at Kaladin knowing it would only give him additional ammunition. 

That is a great point. Throwing rocks high speed. Baseball players throw baseballs at highspeeds, and other trained baseball players can catch said highspeed baseballs. So why wouldn't jasnah also armored, and similarly strengthened be unable to catch or dodge projectiles dropped or thrown without any lashings as you posit? The speed of a bullet I feel in this case is a gross exaggeration. How many times can kaladin smash rocks compromising the integrity of his armor? How many lashes can kaladin do for objects before he runs out? How many lashings on an object does it take to send a large object to going the speed you posit? Szeth had to expend a whole lot of stormlight to just move one slowly and took out the two guys with an element of surprise. How much would it require to infuse the same block to go as fast as you are saying that she cannot dodge it? Jasnah could teleport away. No need to soulcast projectiles nor wall in that case. 

Thing is you are forgetting by kaladin doing all these things, he is actively using stormlight as well. he is running out too. Jasnah has just as much opportunity to use her stormlight intelligently to cause kaladin to run out of his. I believe it was another poster's earlier point that Kaladin does tend to run through his stormlight frighteningly fast. Without any concern towards rationing. The only time we see him ever treat it as a resource is when he left hearthstone to track the voidbringers. otherwise that boy blazed through stormlight faster than an alcoholic through a case of beer. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

(if you go before that first sentence it never says he raised his hand to the wall or touched the wall. It only says he rolls the head towards szeth. So it could be said he wasn't touching the wall, or it could be said Brandon just didn't make a point to mention it in this case.)

Considering Jasnah is, so far, the only Elsecallers, and the fabrials require touch even for Savants, I'll comfortably call that an omission. 

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering Jasnah is, so far, the only Elsecallers, and the fabrials require touch even for Savants, I'll comfortably call that an omission. 

I totally see where you are coming from and agree, but as I said I am still digging and so far the only person I found that specifically says soulcasters require touch is Shallan when she watches Jasnah soulcast at range, and Shallan admits to herself it is based on her limited research of the matter. I do concede most of the instances I can recall off the top of my head involve the individual touching the object, but that is why I want to do a little digging. I am curious if that is a misnomer that the ardentia enforces, meanwhile the individual working for Taravangian might have known better. Again, totally concede it is a stretch, and I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious to check each instance we have seen it be used to see if they all line up and that was the first one I found that doesn't exactly match. One certainly does not make a trend which is why I want to see if I can locate more. 

[Quantus]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I totally see where you are coming from and agree, but as I said I am still digging and so far the only person I found that specifically says soulcasters require touch is Shallan when she watches Jasnah soulcast at range, and Shallan admits to herself it is based on her limited research of the matter. I do concede most of the instances I can recall off the top of my head involve the individual touching the object, but that is why I want to do a little digging. I am curious if that is a misnomer that the ardentia enforces, meanwhile the individual working for Taravangian might have known better. Again, totally concede it is a stretch, and I am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious to check each instance we have seen it be used to see if they all line up and that was the first one I found that doesn't exactly match. One certainly does not make a trend which is why I want to see if I can locate more. 

As a datapoint: The savant trying to reach Akinah in the OB interlude said that she was able to Soulcast a part of an object rather than the whole thing (to be able to poke a hole in the giant stone blades) because she was so advanced with it's use (and/or so far gone into the cognitive, seeing "the dark sky and second sun"), but she still had to physically touch them, and thought it was foolish that the captain had counted on the storm passing enough to let the dinghies get close safely.  I think that if she could distance soulcast she would have had every motive to do it there, and none to protect the secret. 

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

As a datapoint: The savant trying to reach Akinah in the OB interlude said that she was able to Soulcast a part of an object rather than the whole thing (to be able to poke a hole in the giant stone blades) because she was so advanced with it's use (and/or so far gone into the cognitive, seeing "the dark sky and second sun"), but she still had to physically touch them, and thought it was foolish that the captain had counted on the storm passing enough to let the dinghies get close safely.  I think that if she could distance soulcast she would have had every motive to do it there, and none to protect the secret. 

Thank you for the added data point! Still digging, but I found something of interest. Kabsal stated to Shallan that in order to soulcast one must hum in order to get it to work and that it is a closely guarded secret of the ardentia. Now one could reason he was lying because he worked for the ghostbloods, but in the scene where Adolin talks to Kadash about the Assassin in White in Words of Radiance, the group of soulcasters raise their hands in a line, and then hum. Now after they soulcast the windbreak, it does not state that their hands are now resting on the recently created stone, but in the scene I quoted with the man that works for Taravangian, he most certainly did not hum. I could buy not mentioning raising his arm and touching the wall being an omission of forgetfulness, but the humming as well? True she is a savant that learned greater utility but if it was ingrained in her that it required touch, then I do not think it is a stretch for her to think that limitation is a rule. Same applies to Szeth. He believed honorblades required 10 heartbeats, and would summon it in ten heartbeats regardless the danger because he believed it to be true. So back to digging!

 

edit: to add what is interesting about that scene with Kaza is she does not hum either. Maybe this digging might reveal something new! Regardless if it is related to what we are discussing, new info is always great!

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357]

In the Szeth example he cut a section of a fortress wall away and had to lash that portion enough to counter the weight of the surrounding stone including the stone weighing down from above. This is an extreme example of what I had in mind. If that stone were free it wouldn't have taken as many lashings to move it. I'm thinking a rock someone could pick up by hand.

Dalinar threw a fist-sized rock with enough force to destroy the function of a massive machine from a good distance away. Bullet speed may be an exaggeration, but I don't feel it's much of one. If a normal human can throw a baseball 100mph or more, how much faster could someone throw one if they were wearing Shardplate? A baseball thrown at the fastest speed one could achieve on Earth is already difficult to track by eye.

Soulcasting smoke is one of the ways I figured Jasnah could use to counter this ploy. Soulcast a smokescreen and use transpotation to move around within it. She can use her CR sight so her smokescreen wouldn't hinder her.

What are the mechanics of the Transportation surge? A person moves through the CR by creating a mini-perpendicularity. I would argue that while Syl or others may not always be able to see other cognitive beings in the Physical Realm, they would be able to see an opening into their home realm. All higher spren likely have this ability. Willshapers, Elsecallers and Lightweavers have the ability imparted upon them via the Nahel bond. Syl will see a Perpendicularity even if she cannot see Ivory. And she's got enough consciousness to recognize what she sees and can warn Kaladin whenever one forms.

I haven't disregarded Kaladin's Stormlight usage by the way. I just don't think that any of his Stormlight usage costs as much as Jasnah's. Take lashing vs Soulcasting. Everytime someone soulcasts they must overcome the initial Investiture of the object. Doesn't matter if it's a rock or a person, they're basically using their power uphill. Lashing an object, at least the gravity ones, doesn't effect the object, only redirects the forces acting upon it. It probably takes more Stormlight to lash something heavy than something light but essentially it's still a redirect. Overcoming the initial Investiture isn't necessary. What that means to me is that every time Jasnah soulcasts something she burns off more of her Stormlight than a comparative action from Kaladin. If neither go into battle with a mind for Stormlight conservation Jasnah will run out faster. If Kaladin burns like crazy and Jasnah conserves Kaladin lasts longer than if the roles were reversed. If Kaladin conserves and Jasnah burns like crazy, Kaladin dies cause Jasnah has wiped him.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

In the Szeth example he cut a section of a fortress wall away and had to lash that portion enough to counter the weight of the surrounding stone including the stone weighing down from above. This is an extreme example of what I had in mind. If that stone were free it wouldn't have taken as many lashings to move it. I'm thinking a rock someone could pick up by hand.

Dalinar threw a fist-sized rock with enough force to destroy the function of a massive machine from a good distance away. Bullet speed may be an exaggeration, but I don't feel it's much of one. If a normal human can throw a baseball 100mph or more, how much faster could someone throw one if they were wearing Shardplate? A baseball thrown at the fastest speed one could achieve on Earth is already difficult to track by eye.

Soulcasting smoke is one of the ways I figured Jasnah could use to counter this ploy. Soulcast a smokescreen and use transpotation to move around within it. She can use her CR sight so her smokescreen wouldn't hinder her.

What are the mechanics of the Transportation surge? A person moves through the CR by creating a mini-perpendicularity. I would argue that while Syl or others may not always be able to see other cognitive beings in the Physical Realm, they would be able to see an opening into their home realm. All higher spren likely have this ability. Willshapers, Elsecallers and Lightweavers have the ability imparted upon them via the Nahel bond. Syl will see a Perpendicularity even if she cannot see Ivory. And she's got enough consciousness to recognize what she sees and can warn Kaladin whenever one forms.

I haven't disregarded Kaladin's Stormlight usage by the way. I just don't think that any of his Stormlight usage costs as much as Jasnah's. Take lashing vs Soulcasting. Everytime someone soulcasts they must overcome the initial Investiture of the object. Doesn't matter if it's a rock or a person, they're basically using their power uphill. Lashing an object, at least the gravity ones, doesn't effect the object, only redirects the forces acting upon it. It probably takes more Stormlight to lash something heavy than something light but essentially it's still a redirect. Overcoming the initial Investiture isn't necessary. What that means to me is that every time Jasnah soulcasts something she burns off more of her Stormlight than a comparative action from Kaladin. If neither go into battle with a mind for Stormlight conservation Jasnah will run out faster. If Kaladin burns like crazy and Jasnah conserves Kaladin lasts longer than if the roles were reversed. If Kaladin conserves and Jasnah burns like crazy, Kaladin dies cause Jasnah has wiped him.

I will try and dig to find that scene (unless you have the page so I can locate it easier), but I recall it quite differently. it was a solid wall. He cut it at an angle so it could slide out (slanted like a trapezoid). It had nothing to do with the rest of the building. it was because the object was very heavy. But I will endeavor to locate the scene to be sure.

 

edit: found the scene you were referring to! I have included it below for reference:

Way of Kings page 27

He reached the far wall and - preparing himself for yet another blasphemy - he raised his Shardblade and slashed horizsontally through the dark grey stone. The rock sliced easily; a Shardblade could cut any inanimate object. Two vertical slashes followed, then one across the bottom, cutting a large square block. He pressed his hand against it, willing Stormlight into the stone.

Behind him the room's door began to crack. He looked over his shoulder and focused on the shaking door, Lashing the block in that direction. Frost crystallized on his clothing - Lashing something so large required a great deal of Stormlight. The tempest within him stilled, like a storm reduced to a drizzle.

He stepped aside. The large stone block shuddered, sliding into the room. Normally, moving the block would have been impossible. its own weight would have held it against the stones below. Yet now, that same weight pulled it free; for the block, the direction of the room's door was down. With a deep grinding sound, the block slid free of the wall and tumbled through the air, smashing furniture.

The soldiers finally broke through the door, staggering into the room just as the enormous block crashed into them. 

 

So it was like I said. The weight of the block was what was referenced, and it took a whole lot of stormlight to get it moving at its normal weight. Szeth used 1 lashing, just because of the size and weight of the block, that one lashing took a whole lotta stormlight. Much like soulcasting inanimate objects would require less stormlight than a person. 

 

And again whatever enhancements kaladin has from shardplate so does Jasnah. I used the baseball player because the assumption is both involved have the same capabilities. If I was going to try to catch a baseball from a national league pitcher, I would fail horribly. But someone with the same capabilities can catch it no problem. Catchers on baseball teams do it all the time. So Jasnah would have the same speed, and strength as Kaladin and would be able to catch a thrown stone. 

Ehhh, I still feel that is a whole lotta assumptions on your part. We have never seen anyone use their spren in that manner in the books whatsoever. True we have not seen a number of examples of transportation used, but for me if there has to be a special fabrial made with the intention of alerting the oncoming presence of someone, it would rather negate the specialty if all spren, or even a good chunk of them could replicate it. Regarding this point I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I do not personally see it working that way

Yet we see Jasnah casually use her soulcaster to make a paperweight from wine, scribe words onto a piece of paper without issue, much like how kaladin can lash objects without issue. when we see soulcasters break their gemstones, or use massive amounts of stormlight is when they either change people (which we agree takes more because of their innate investiture), or large projects such as whole buildings. So I do not think based on our experience we can be assured that every single use Jasnah employs with her soulcasting will automatically be more than kaladin. As far as we know transforming a stone to air takes the same amount as lashing the stone a certain direction, but if you wanted to transform a person to air, it would take the same amount as lashing a much large rock a certain direction. 

I believe the point of the poster is while from what we see of Jasnah, she is more thoughtful with her stormlight use, Kaladin is more inclined to use it haphazardly in great bursts to accomplish goals. 

edit: for example, kaladin draining all his stormlight to draw all the parshendi arrows to his arm. or kaladin draining all his stormlight fighting parshendi, till they show up with more for him to advance in oaths and leap the chasm taking their stormlight to keep going. or kaladin using all his stormlight to fly as close to hearthstone as he can till he is completely drained and has to stumble to get there. and so on. Oh! also at the end of oathbringer, he drains almost all the stormlight in the area while fighting against Amaram and worries about running out. He comments on how quickly he goes through it and being concerned about getting addicted to it. 

conversely lets look at jasnah. She soulcasts four men, breaks one gemstone, and still has some stormlight left over. when she is jumped and "killed" on the ship, she has enough stormlight to heal from the stabbing, be pulled into shadesmar fully by ivory, and still have enough left over to soulcast away the bonds of the crew to free them while in an entirely different realm. Also Jasnah doing all the soulcasting she did never expressed concern about running out at thaylenah while Shallan burned through all the stormlight gems around her, and so did kaladin. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357]

Jasnah at that point in the story is 1. Higher in Oaths than Kaladin in his scenes and more experienced in Stormlight usage than either of them. Shallan was recreating an army when she ran dry, Kaladin at the end of OB was fighting someone who posessed all Surges and was Invested to the hilt. From what we've seen, Jasnah has yet to encounter a situation where she'd have to use a ruinous amount of Stormlight. Even in Thaylen City she wasn't using it as much as the others had to. She repaired a wall and fought Fused. 

Stormlight doesn't make anyone experience time differently. Just because they have the same enhancements is no guarantee that Jasnah will be able to track an object traveling at a ridiculous speed, just that she can throw objects comparably hard. If Jasnah throws a rock at Kaladin he will have the same problem dodging as she would. But Kal's surge allows him to throw even faster if he applies lashings.

But ok. Let's say both Jasnah and Kaladin are both at 5th Ideal. We know Stormlight usage is more efficient the higher the Oath. I suspect that Jasnah will be more conservative in her usage of Stormlight because she has to be, because she knows that everytime she uses it's going to eat heavily into her stockpile. Kaladin will burn without much regard both because he can't be stingy if he wants to survive v Jasnah and because his usages take up less of his stockpile than his opponent.

@Calderis brings up a good point also regarding Soulcasting at distance. If she has to close her eyes and concentrate when doing so unless she has the power of a nearby Perpendicularity to work with its gonna be real hard to deal with fast moving objects flying towards her head.

[Pathfinder]

So I did a bunch of digging regarding soulcasting and found out some interesting tidbits. I will post them first, and then respond to Bigmikey357.

So other than Jasnah and Shallan, over the course of all three books, we get roughly four instances of soulcasters soulcasting on screen. I also found a mention of something soulcasted that I think is pertinent to this discussion.

So first we have the dark figure working for Taravangian talking to Szeth in Way of Kings page 451. There is no mention of the figure (presumably not an ardent) raising his hand or touching the wall before the soulcaster flashes and the wall turns to smoke. One other thing of note is the gemstone is on the palm, and Szeth can see it, which potentially would have been covered hand the man placed his hand on the wall to soulcast it. So this individual does not chant, and does not seem to be overtly touching the wall. This however could be a potential omission and mean nothing more.

Second is in Words of Radiance page 409, we have five ardent soulcasters creating a windbreak. Some are stone savants as they have gem like eyes, and stony skin (as remarked on by Adolin). In that scene the soulcasters raise their hands, and chant. This scene is of note because we have savants, and they chant in order to soulcast, supporting what Kabsal stated to Shallan. I also bring this scene up because it does not mention that the wall appeared pressed right against their hands which is what should happen if touch is required. The air should have lined up, and changed to stone against their hand. Now again this could be an omission, and probably is, but I wanted to show it for completeness. 

Third, we have Kaza in Oathbringer page 557. She is a smoke savant, not an ardent, and soulcasts portions of the rocks in the water. She does not chant or any other vocal action, but she does clearly touch the rocks. This supports that chanting is not required to soulcast as now we have two instances of users (though the first does not seem to be a savant) soulcasting away a portion of the wall without any chanting or speech required. However here we have a clear indication that Kaza touched her target, while the first two are more ambiguous. 

Fourth, in Oathbringer page 979, we see Dalinar and co. observe the soulcasting of Gavilar's corpse. Again we have a stone savant and again it is an ardent this time. This individual touches Gavilar but does not hum. 

 

So in rough summation of the scenes we have, we have a few variations:

1. we have 2 instances where touch required is ambiguous

2. we have 1 instance with verbal confirmation of chanting being required

3. we have 3 instances where chanting is not used

4. we have 2 instances where touch is required

 

So at the end of the day, I really want more time with Jasnah to learn more of what definitively soulcasting (the fabrial) can do versus soulcasting (the radiant) can do. Now two other things of note. In the scenes where Jasnah and Shallan meet and Shallan watches Jasnah soulcast, Shallan marvels at Jasnah's capabilities. When she comments to Jasnah about this, Jasnah does not reply "Oh that's just because the realms are closer together", Jasnah instead explains her skill and the practical knowledge to attain such proficiency. So although for bigger jobs (soulcasting an entire wall, and soulcasting people directly) is assisted by the realms being closer, I do not think it is entirely fair to say all the ease in which Jasnah soulcasts is owed to that. But till we see her soulcast more, I agree it is left a degree ambiguous. 

 

On 3/7/2019 at 5:50 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Jasnah at that point in the story is 1. Higher in Oaths than Kaladin in his scenes and more experienced in Stormlight usage than either of them. Shallan was recreating an army when she ran dry, Kaladin at the end of OB was fighting someone who posessed all Surges and was Invested to the hilt. From what we've seen, Jasnah has yet to encounter a situation where she'd have to use a ruinous amount of Stormlight. Even in Thaylen City she wasn't using it as much as the others had to. She repaired a wall and fought Fused. 

Stormlight doesn't make anyone experience time differently. Just because they have the same enhancements is no guarantee that Jasnah will be able to track an object traveling at a ridiculous speed, just that she can throw objects comparably hard. If Jasnah throws a rock at Kaladin he will have the same problem dodging as she would. But Kal's surge allows him to throw even faster if he applies lashings.

But ok. Let's say both Jasnah and Kaladin are both at 5th Ideal. We know Stormlight usage is more efficient the higher the Oath. I suspect that Jasnah will be more conservative in her usage of Stormlight because she has to be, because she knows that everytime she uses it's going to eat heavily into her stockpile. Kaladin will burn without much regard both because he can't be stingy if he wants to survive v Jasnah and because his usages take up less of his stockpile than his opponent.

@Calderis brings up a good point also regarding Soulcasting at distance. If she has to close her eyes and concentrate when doing so unless she has the power of a nearby Perpendicularity to work with its gonna be real hard to deal with fast moving objects flying towards her head.

So Jasnah fixing the wall isn't potentially using massive amounts of stormlight? Soulcasting a rock tomb out of midair to entrap multiple fused isn't? Soulcasting a huge sheet of the floor into oil to set on fire isn't? Soulcasting a sheet of oil in midair isn't? Or how about soulcasting a man to crystal, and having that man his another and transform him, and another and another? First you say that soulcasting automatically takes more stormlight pound for pound compared to Kaladin, to now saying Jasnah didn't use that much. Jasnah definitely soulcasted a whole lot during the battle of Thaylenah. I can buy that she had potentially an easier time overcoming a person's or object's identity because the realms were closer, but making it cost less stormlight to do so too? I do not think so. Even if that was the case, then Shallan and Kaladin would have required even less stormlight because they experienced the same phenomena as Jasnah. So again, she experienced just as much battle as Shallan and Kaladin, yet those two burned through it far faster than Jasnah, which to me denotes well thought out use of resources. Jasnah even admonishes herself over setting the ground to oil and igniting it because the fused ended up pushing their way through it, thinking that she should have made a pit instead. I would imagine the pit would not have killed those particular fused, but would have definitely restrained them. As I type this I thought of another example. Shallan asks Jasnah how to soulcast air to rock. Jasnah explains how each essence requires a different approach to convince it to change. She suggests Shallan turning rock to oil rather than air to stone since she is a beginner. So that again suggests a level of knowledge, proficiency, and forethought in all her actions to best employ the tools she has access to. Kaladin demonstrates a different thought. He gets surprised at how much stormlight he used, and gets worried he won't be able to continue for much longer. That denotes to me that he was not paying attention to his stormlight usage and took for granted the amount he had access to. As I mentioned, this is most certainly not the first time this has happened to him. 

Stormlight does increase the persons speed and reaction time. I still think you are grossly over estimating the speed in which a shardplate enhanced person could throw a rock. But at this point I guess regarding that we will have to just agree to disagree on that point. See now you are going back to saying Jasnah uses more stormlight than kaladin because she soulcasts, yet at the battle of Thaylenah, she wasn't?

I referenced scenes above regarding what we know about soulcasting at a distance. I think at this time it is too ambigous to fully say whether or not the ease of ranged casting Jasnah did is purely caused by the realms being closer. 

As to soulcasting something moving, in Oathbringer page 710, Shallan comments on how multiple waterfalls were soulcasted into various materials (marble, etc). The water has to be continually flowing to be considered a waterfall. Shallan even comments how it appeared to be trapped in motion. So if soulcasters (the fabrial) can soulcast flowing water then I see no reason a soulcaster (radiant) would be unable to soulcast moving air or flying objects. Anyway this goes back to our earlier disagreement, where I feel she can simply dodge the projectiles. That they wouldn't be breaking the sound barrier or anything. But at this stage regarding pitching boulders, being unable to measure the speed they are thrown, nor the increase in speed stormlight and shardplate affords, it really comes down to opinion. So on that part I guess all we can do is agree to disagree.

[Karger]

As to the smokescreen idea couldn't Kaladin just disperse if via causing some wind at a critical moment.  I also think that Kaladin knows that he has the advantage in a no stormlight fight so he would probably be more conservative then Jasnah who has to kill him before the battle gets to that point.

[+Oltux72]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

As to the smokescreen idea couldn't Kaladin just disperse if via causing some wind at a critical moment.  I also think that Kaladin knows that he has the advantage in a no stormlight fight so he would probably be more conservative then Jasnah who has to kill him before the battle gets to that point.

Well, no, or at least not unless she needs to kill him for an external reason. She is an Elsecaller. If she wants to flee, she will.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If she wants to flee, she will.

If her stormlight is running low then going to shadesmar is most likely not a good idea.  Especially if Kaladin can draw spren to him.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

If her stormlight is running low then going to shadesmar is most likely not a good idea.  Especially if Kaladin can draw spren to him.

Yes, though still better than facing a Radiant after you've run out of Stormlight. But why Shadesmar? She will do as the Radiants in Dalinar's vision and teleport away. Or behind Kaladin and run him through.

Kaladin has the advantage in remote sensing though. Sylphrena is very mobile. She is likelier to find Jasnah than Ivory would find Kaladin. Yet tactically surprising somebody who can see your soul through obstacles is likely impossible.

[Karger]

Which vision is that?  Also we have no idea how hard that is.

[Bigmikey357]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So Jasnah fixing the wall isn't potentially using massive amounts of stormlight? Soulcasting a rock tomb out of midair to entrap multiple fused isn't? Soulcasting a huge sheet of the floor into oil to set on fire isn't? Soulcasting a sheet of oil in midair isn't? Or how about soulcasting a man to crystal, and having that man his another and transform him, and another and another? First you say that soulcasting automatically takes more stormlight pound for pound compared to Kaladin, to now saying Jasnah didn't use that much. Jasnah definitely soulcasted a whole lot during the battle of Thaylenah. I can buy that she had potentially an easier time overcoming a person's or object's identity because the realms were closer, but making it cost less stormlight to do so too? I do not think so. Even if that was the case, then Shallan and Kaladin would have required even less stormlight because they experienced the same phenomena as Jasnah. So again, she experienced just as much battle as Shallan and Kaladin, yet those two burned through it far faster than Jasnah, which to me denotes well thought out use of resources. Jasnah even admonishes herself over setting the ground to oil and igniting it because the fused ended up pushing their way through it, thinking that she should have made a pit instead. I would imagine the pit would not have killed those particular fused, but would have definitely restrained them. As I type this I thought of another example. Shallan asks Jasnah how to soulcast air to rock. Jasnah explains how each essence requires a different approach to convince it to change. She suggests Shallan turning rock to oil rather than air to stone since she is a beginner. So that again suggests a level of knowledge, proficiency, and forethought in all her actions to best employ the tools she has access to. Kaladin demonstrates a different thought. He gets surprised at how much stormlight he used, and gets worried he won't be able to continue for much longer. That denotes to me that he was not paying attention to his stormlight usage and took for granted the amount he had access to. As I mentioned, this is most certainly not the first time this has happened to him.

When I said Jasnah is using less Stormlight at Thaylen City, it isn't exactly a contradiction.  Yes of course Jasnah is using a bunch of Stormlight, but it's not constant.  Each instance you name is just that, an instance.  Compare that to Shallan and Kaladin in the same battle.  They are on constant burn.  I look at it like a pitcher of water.  Jasnah pours her water in a glass, then another glass, then another glass, each time representing a soulcasting.  Kaladin and Shallan are tipping their pitcher over non-stop until the pitcher is empty.  Jasnah with her experience knows how to pace herself and make whatever amount of Stormlight she has last for as long as possible.  Is it out of the realm of possibility that Kaladin learns this as he becomes more familiar with his surges?  I mean Kaladin is no dumb brute.  Right now he is using his powers instinctively but he can study.  

As for dodging, I'll make one more attempt to state my case before conceding the argument.  Say Kaladin is throwing fist sized rocks at Jasnah. Say he's doing it in Shardplate.  The fastest an unenhanced human can throw something like that is maybe 100 mph give or take.  At the lowest estimate given Shardplate strength magnification, Kaladin would be able to toss said rock twice as fast.  Stormlight magnifies reaction time but not that much.  Now if Kaladin is tossing from 100 yards away, sure it would be doable to dodge something screaming at you that fast.  How about from 10 yards? One would almost have to be moving before the throw is completed to dodge something moving that fast from that close in.  Jasnah ain't burning Atium after all.  I'm sure you've seen a baseball in flight on TV.  Even with a pitcher clocking triple digits on a speedgun it doesn't look all that fast.  I mean you can track it by eye as it leaves the pitcher's hand and all. Being on the other end of that pitch, trying to watch it as it comes towards you, is an entirely different can of worms. Much harder to dodge I assure you.  If Kaladin is tossing rocks, Jasnah isn't dodging all of them.  She will take some hits on her plate.  Kaladin has a much higher chance to dodge because he can fly, but if Jasnah tosses rocks back, Kaladin ain't dodging em all either.  

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

As to the smokescreen idea couldn't Kaladin just disperse if via causing some wind at a critical moment.  I also think that Kaladin knows that he has the advantage in a no stormlight fight so he would probably be more conservative then Jasnah who has to kill him before the battle gets to that point.

Well part of the effectiveness of the smokescreen idea is involving aluminum so it cannot be manipulated by Kaladin. As to Kaladin's conservation of stormlight during a fight, we have seen him in multiple occasions even when fighting "mundane" foes in the parshendi burn through his stormlight in record time. 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no, or at least not unless she needs to kill him for an external reason. She is an Elsecaller. If she wants to flee, she will.

I think a tactical retreat would be well within reason for Jasnah if she felt it necessary. 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

If her stormlight is running low then going to shadesmar is most likely not a good idea.  Especially if Kaladin can draw spren to him.

Not sure how Kaladin drawing spren to himself would threaten Jasnah in the cognitive realm. True if she was low she potentially couldn't travel back, but neither could he travel to the cognitive realm, nor could he harm her there while he remains on the physical. 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, though still better than facing a Radiant after you've run out of Stormlight. But why Shadesmar? She will do as the Radiants in Dalinar's vision and teleport away. Or behind Kaladin and run him through.

Kaladin has the advantage in remote sensing though. Sylphrena is very mobile. She is likelier to find Jasnah than Ivory would find Kaladin. Yet tactically surprising somebody who can see your soul through obstacles is likely impossible.

I do not recall ever seeing Kaladin remote sensing things in the cognitive realm through Sylphrena. Could you provide a reference to this ability?

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Which vision is that?  Also we have no idea how hard that is.

I do not recall a vision where a radiant teleported away, but we have seen a deleted scene written by Brandon about what happened to Jasnah when she was stabbed on the ship she was on with Shallan. Ivory was able to pull her into the cognitive realm without her even intending to. So for elsecallers at least, it seems pretty easy. 

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

When I said Jasnah is using less Stormlight at Thaylen City, it isn't exactly a contradiction.  Yes of course Jasnah is using a bunch of Stormlight, but it's not constant.  Each instance you name is just that, an instance.  Compare that to Shallan and Kaladin in the same battle.  They are on constant burn.  I look at it like a pitcher of water.  Jasnah pours her water in a glass, then another glass, then another glass, each time representing a soulcasting.  Kaladin and Shallan are tipping their pitcher over non-stop until the pitcher is empty.  Jasnah with her experience knows how to pace herself and make whatever amount of Stormlight she has last for as long as possible.  Is it out of the realm of possibility that Kaladin learns this as he becomes more familiar with his surges?  I mean Kaladin is no dumb brute.  Right now he is using his powers instinctively but he can study.  

As for dodging, I'll make one more attempt to state my case before conceding the argument.  Say Kaladin is throwing fist sized rocks at Jasnah. Say he's doing it in Shardplate.  The fastest an unenhanced human can throw something like that is maybe 100 mph give or take.  At the lowest estimate given Shardplate strength magnification, Kaladin would be able to toss said rock twice as fast.  Stormlight magnifies reaction time but not that much.  Now if Kaladin is tossing from 100 yards away, sure it would be doable to dodge something screaming at you that fast.  How about from 10 yards? One would almost have to be moving before the throw is completed to dodge something moving that fast from that close in.  Jasnah ain't burning Atium after all.  I'm sure you've seen a baseball in flight on TV.  Even with a pitcher clocking triple digits on a speedgun it doesn't look all that fast.  I mean you can track it by eye as it leaves the pitcher's hand and all. Being on the other end of that pitch, trying to watch it as it comes towards you, is an entirely different can of worms. Much harder to dodge I assure you.  If Kaladin is tossing rocks, Jasnah isn't dodging all of them.  She will take some hits on her plate.  Kaladin has a much higher chance to dodge because he can fly, but if Jasnah tosses rocks back, Kaladin ain't dodging em all either.  

I will try to find time tonight to go over the battle of Theylenah so we can list all the uses of Kaladin and how much stormlight he appeared to use, all the uses of Shallan and how much stormlight she appeared to use, and all the uses of Jasnah and how much stormlight she appeared to us. I read it recently, and I really do not believe what you are positing regarding the stormlight use in that chapter is accurate, but I will provide references as I am still going on my memory and would rather confirm it. So I will get back to you on that portion. 

The problem with the argument of "Kaladin can study" is we could say anything, and validate it with "well it could happen". The reason why I feel Jasnah's use of stormlight conservatively is valid is because we have multiple examples across all three novels that support it. Just like we have multiple examples of Kaladin burning massively through his stormlight. Otherwise this discussion would end up "because batman". I could say Jasnah would figure out a way to use Kaladin's surges against him and kill him. I have nothing in book to support that, but Jasnah is knowledgeable, so we cannot rule it out. The problem is, how do you have discourse over that? How does one reply to that? So I do not feel saying Kaladin having a well documented history of burning through massive amounts of stormlight is indicating he is a dumb brute, nor do I feel we have any indication that he would "study" and change such habits when they have worked for him in the past. I can't point to anything that says he would never learn to be more conservative, but from everything we have seen so far, he seems to burn through stormlight far more cavalierly than Jasnah. 

You are forgetting two parts of the calculation. Since you are throwing a larger object, the weight and wind resistance increases. The shardplate increase in strength would allow you to lift and throw, but you are still lifting a heavier object, so it is going to take more force to throw it the same speed as the baseball. The rock is also larger than the ball so it would suffer from increased drag. So you would not be getting a double yield off the bat. I have to run now so I will try to edit this later, or post a new comment when I can. 

 

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not recall ever seeing Kaladin remote sensing things in the cognitive realm through Sylphrena. Could you provide a reference to this ability?

Sorry that is a misunderstanding. Sylphrena can fly pretty fast. Searching a large area is possible to her. Jasnah, however, can observe Shadesmar while in the PR, so Kaladin could not approach her undetected, nor could Syl.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not recall a vision where a radiant teleported away, but we have seen a deleted scene written by Brandon about what happened to Jasnah when she was stabbed on the ship she was on with Shallan. Ivory was able to pull her into the cognitive realm without her even intending to. So for elsecallers at least, it seems pretty easy.

But we have a scene (The Recreance) where Knights Radiant materialize. They must have come from somewhere.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The reason why I feel Jasnah's use of stormlight conservatively is valid is because we have multiple examples across all three novels that support it. Just like we have multiple examples of Kaladin burning massively through his stormlight.

Kaladin uses Stormlight for movement. If Kaladin walks, he gives up a lot of his advantages. I suppose the orders who do that (Skybreakers, Windrunners, Edgedancers, Dustbringers)are likely to use more fuel than those who use their powers only for a specific effect.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The problem with the argument of "Kaladin can study" is we could say anything, and validate it with "well it could happen". The reason why I feel Jasnah's use of stormlight conservatively is valid is because we have multiple examples across all three novels that support it. Just like we have multiple examples of Kaladin burning massively through his stormlight. Otherwise this discussion would end up "because batman". I could say Jasnah would figure out a way to use Kaladin's surges against him and kill him. I have nothing in book to support that, but Jasnah is knowledgeable, so we cannot rule it out. The problem is, how do you have discourse over that? How does one reply to that? So I do not feel saying Kaladin having a well documented history of burning through massive amounts of stormlight is indicating he is a dumb brute, nor do I feel we have any indication that he would "study" and change such habits when they have worked for him in the past. I can't point to anything that says he would never learn to be more conservative, but from everything we have seen so far, he seems to burn through stormlight far more cavalierly than Jasnah. 

We can discuss based on conjecture. Yes we have narrative proof that as it stands Jasnah has been shown to be way more conservative with her stormlight usage. But let's put that into context. How long has Jasnah had the use of her Surges? At least 6 years. Kaladin has had his probably just short of 1 year.  At this point in the narrative Jasnah has a great understanding of her capabilities, Kaladin leans on instincts. It's not worth discussing the possibility that Kaladin can grow in his understanding? Kaladin already has the impetus to do better, Thaylen City taught him that just flinging Stormlight around isn't going to be enough. He'd have died without Rock's timely use of a Shardbow. We've also seen in the narrative how hard Kaladin trains, both with the spear and defense against Shardbearers. Why would he give any less effort to learning how to manage his Surges? It's no different than projecting how Lyft will develop when she gets older.

I'm sure that I've already stated that if they fought today Jasnah would wipe the floor with our favorite bridgeman. That's why I proposed to make the contest more even. It's why I set the conditions as both being full Radiants with an equal amount of initial Stormlight and both have Blade and Plate. Even with all things being equal I see Jasnah winning more than she loses. 

I'm going to leave dodging alone as I'm not sure I'd be able to convince you of how devastating a thrown projectile in the hands of a Radiant wearing Plate could potentially be. I think that even with enhanced reflexes dancing past everything is unrealistic but obviously you and others think differently. 

Let me ask you something. I took Kaladin's side as sort of a thought exercise as to how he could potentially win a powered fight with Jasnah. I saw a path to victory for Kaladin. Can you picture a scenario where Kaladin has a chance or is it 100% Jasnah for you? Curious.

[Calderis]

In these discussions, when trying to determine cost/expenditure of stormlight, I really think using anything from Thaylen field from anyone save Lift is pointless. 

The gem reserve was scattered everywhere and the Perp charged everything. Cost was not a concern for anyone with the ability to infuse. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

idea is involving aluminum

Much harder to soulcast also aluminum dust could be moved by a wind caused with surgebinding.

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In these discussions, when trying to determine cost/expenditure of stormlight, I really think using anything from Thaylen field from anyone save Lift is pointless. 

The gem reserve was scattered everywhere and the Perp charged everything. Cost was not a concern for anyone with the ability to infuse. 

Agreed and I am going further and saying that anything that happens at that battlefield should almost certainly be taken with a grain of salt what with everything happening there.

Also why is Kaladin manually throwing rocks?  We saw him move a giant bolder that was comming right at him back at the thunderclast with lashings using a supply of stormlight he was physically carrying.  Doing so did not drain his stormlight reserves to the point where he could not fight during the rest of the long battle and he still had some left over during shademar travel.  Also why does he have to break off chunks of rocks?  To paraphrase prime Taln "We are on Roshar their are rocks."  The size of the rocks is pretty much immaterial just lash them at Jasnah and hope some of them hit.

[Bigmikey357]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also why is Kaladin manually throwing rocks?  We saw him move a giant bolder that was comming right at him back at the thunderclast with lashings using a supply of stormlight he was physically carrying.  Doing so did not drain his stormlight reserves to the point where he could not fight during the rest of the long battle and he still had some left over during shademar travel.  Also why does he have to break off chunks of rocks?  To paraphrase prime Taln "We are on Roshar their are rocks."  The size of the rocks is pretty much immaterial just lash them at Jasnah and hope some of them hit.

Initial momentum. If you lash something you must use Stormlight, more Stormlight for multiple lashings and greater speed, enough speed so that Jasnah cannot easily dodge something incoming. Meanwhile a Shardplate-assisted throw uses no Stormlight and can be imparted with a greater initial velocity. And let's face it kiddies, movement in the Physical Realm is probably Kal's only real advantage in a fight with Jasnah. He needs Stormlight to fly. Tossing rocks with it is a waste.