Jasnah V Kaladin

[Bigmikey357]

Once aluminum is introduced to the battlefield it becomes a danger to either Radiant. Jasnah can make it but Kaladin isn't unfamiliar with it. And no matter how much Soulcasting she has she ain't beating Kaladin if it comes to a hand to hand fight. As long as the Stormlight holds out Jasnah has the advantage. She has power at range and can Transport, strike, and move. But she doesn't have true battlefield experience while Kal has tons. If Kaladin can avoid Jasnah's attacks until she stops glowing, a possibility due to his fighting experience, then the advantage becomes all his whether he still has Stormlight or not.

As for Jasnah Soulcasting him directly, I don't think it's possible. Can she soulcast Syl? Syl will become Kaladin and vice-versa on the spiritual level when he becomes a full 5 KR. The Investiture resistance is too great to overcome in my opinion. I don't believe Jasnah can soulcast any spren at all, not even lesser spren, so Soulcasting a Radiant is gonna be impossible. But who knows? Been wrong before.

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Once aluminum is introduced to the battlefield it becomes a danger to either Radiant. Jasnah can make it but Kaladin isn't unfamiliar with it. And no matter how much Soulcasting she has she ain't beating Kaladin if it comes to a hand to hand fight. As long as the Stormlight holds out Jasnah has the advantage. She has power at range and can Transport, strike, and move. But she doesn't have true battlefield experience while Kal has tons. If Kaladin can avoid Jasnah's attacks until she stops glowing, a possibility due to his fighting experience, then the advantage becomes all his whether he still has Stormlight or not.

As for Jasnah Soulcasting him directly, I don't think it's possible. Can she soulcast Syl? Syl will become Kaladin and vice-versa on the spiritual level when he becomes a full 5 KR. The Investiture resistance is too great to overcome in my opinion. I don't believe Jasnah can soulcast any spren at all, not even lesser spren, so Soulcasting a Radiant is gonna be impossible. But who knows? Been wrong before.

Jasnah does not need to make a gesture or any overt outside motion to soulcast. Kaladin gets blinded by dust, or finely ground up glass soulcasted right in his face. Stunned, jasnah brings her hand forward as she soulcasts a barbed aluminum knife/harpoon, driving it into Kaladin's eye into the brain. Battlefield experience is great, but you can only respond to so much when so much is going on. And before you mention the "atium like" effect Kaladin got from "dancing with the wind", aluminum does not leave any atium shadows. So if whatever Kaladin did in that moment was supernatural in any way, the aluminum would counter that. 

Yes she can soulcast Syl. It would require far more investiture than is feasible, but they can be soulcasted. Do you have a WoB to back that up about 5th oath knight radiant? I do not recall reading that. 

 

edit: actually even better, soulcast a fine abrasive powder of aluminum directly in his face causing him to be blinded and inhale it. While his eyes are damaged and his breathing is choked up (both unable to be healed), then as I said, ram the barbed aluminum harpoon through the eye slot finishing him off. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

Pretty sure the windspren Kaladin summons can counter the dust.  If Jasnah can and does create aluminum Kaladin can use it against her rip it out and throw it back or use it as an off hand.  Soulcasting takes much more stormlight then lashing so if she tries it and misses thats it.  We all should agree that Kaladin is wining in a hand to hand.

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

Pretty sure the windspren Kaladin summons can counter the dust.  If Jasnah can and does create aluminum Kaladin can use it against her rip it out and throw it back or use it as an off hand.  Soulcasting takes much more stormlight then lashing so if she tries it and misses thats it.  We all should agree that Kaladin is wining in a hand to hand.

Not sure if you saw my edit or not, but I added that Jasnah could soulcast aluminum coarse dust in Kaladin's face. The windspren would not be able to affect it, and we have seen Kaladin be overwhelmed and stunned plenty of times in the books. He wouldn't be able to heal from it being in his eyes and in his lungs, and that would give Jasnah plenty of time to ram the aluminum harpoon home through his eye into his brain. He wouldn't be able to heal it, so it would be treated as a normal wound so could potentially kill him outright. Or, since it is barbed, he would be ripping a huge chunk of his brain out which at the very least would take quite a bit of stormlight to repair, during which Jasnah could be stabbing him with additional aluminum harpoons, and smashing his plate with her shardblade. 

edit: to help the image, I am talking about tiny bits of coarse metal that can act like sandpaper across the eyes, and the mucus membranes in the nose, throat, and lungs. It would be soulcasted directly in his face, so no dodging it, and even if the windspren could affect it (which they couldn't because it is aluminum), it would be too late because it would have already gotten into his eyes, and breathed in. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

@Bigmikey357 the "one soul" thing on the Spiritual level should still be a matter of Connection. They're still two separate entities.

As to the whole aluminum business... Unless Jasnah knows how to make it, it's a moot point. If what's soulcast is even aluminum in the first place. 

As to Kaladin "summoning windspren" to move the aluminum dust... That's not what he does. He can alter pressure to create wind, which we've only seen happen once (on a fairly massive scale) which should allow the dust to be blown away from him... But not reliably at her. 

If it were spren, the aluminum would screw them up and disrupt the power. I doubt a being of pure investiture would enjoy being hit with a substance that negates Investiture. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

There is a side to this that I haven't seen brought up yet, Jasnah has probably already spent time figuring out the best way to kill a member of each order, just in case she needed to at some point.

Kaladin, being the big softy that he is, has almost certainly not considered this.

[Bigmikey357]

Even if, and its a very big if, Jasnah can in fact soulcast Syl its going to be a one shot maneuver, taking all her available Stormlight to overcome the resistance of Soulcasting a being of pure Investiture. Soulcasting aluminum would be loads easier and it's going to affect someone even in Plate. But although she will need no overt gestures to do so, there's no hiding her intentions from a being that can see into the Cognitive. Syl can serve as a warning system thus allowing him to avoid some of her more nasty uses of the Soulcast arts. Not foolproof of course, but it could give Kaladin a slight defensive edge.

As far as the WOB, I read it but don't have time to research it in the coppermind. But I distinctly remember the saying 2 entities, one soul, merging as it were. Yes @Calderis, Connection is involved I believe, but as the mechanism by which the merger takes place, at least from my understanding.

Like I said, Jasnah has the edge with Stormlight, though I don't believe it's as one sided as some believe. Without Stormlight the advantage reverses.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As far as the WOB, I read it but don't have time to research it in the coppermind. But I distinctly remember the saying 2 entities, one soul, merging as it were. Yes @Calderis, Connection is involved I believe, but as the mechanism by which the merger takes place, at least from my understanding.

This is the WoB. 

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

But there's still a distinction between the two. There has to be. The soul defines what the Physical aspect is. To be truly one soul in its entirety would mean both beings would be equally physical. Both would have the same powers and functions. Both would be equally mortal or immortal. But spren survive their radiants deaths, and KR are not immortal. 

There is still a clear distinction between the physical being, and the immortal Investiture being. 

[Pathfinder]

On 3/1/2019 at 10:26 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Even if, and its a very big if, Jasnah can in fact soulcast Syl its going to be a one shot maneuver, taking all her available Stormlight to overcome the resistance of Soulcasting a being of pure Investiture. Soulcasting aluminum would be loads easier and it's going to affect someone even in Plate. But although she will need no overt gestures to do so, there's no hiding her intentions from a being that can see into the Cognitive. Syl can serve as a warning system thus allowing him to avoid some of her more nasty uses of the Soulcast arts. Not foolproof of course, but it could give Kaladin a slight defensive edge.

As far as the WOB, I read it but don't have time to research it in the coppermind. But I distinctly remember the saying 2 entities, one soul, merging as it were. Yes @Calderis, Connection is involved I believe, but as the mechanism by which the merger takes place, at least from my understanding.

Like I said, Jasnah has the edge with Stormlight, though I don't believe it's as one sided as some believe. Without Stormlight the advantage reverses.

Just to clarify, when I said Jasnah could theoretically soulcast Syl, it is because of the numerous WoB where people ask him "can I forge a person into a mistborn" or "can I x the y". Brandon always responds the same. Sure, theoretically, with enough investiture, anything is possible, but that doesn't make it feasible. The amount of power you would need to forge someone into being a mistborn is more than it is worth attempting. So Jasnah could theoretically soulcast anything, including Syl, just the level of investiture needed to overcome Syl's investiture directly would be so great as to unfeasible. That is why I wanted clarity on a radiant and his or her spren becoming one because you implied by them doing so, Kaladin would gain that level of "resistance". 

Now having said all that, personally I still maintain the level of versatility and variability that soulcasting provides in the right hands would be enough for Jasnah to overcome Kaladin. Jasnah is practiced enough to soulcast fine details onto a piece of paper, or larger changes. She is practiced enough to know that the essences are easier to soulcast than specific things. She is also practiced enough to know her proficiency does not lie with creating organics (the strawberry jam being something she never tried before). To me, for a princess with access to expensive materials, coupled with a scholar who has access to a power she relentlessly researched because of the coming desolation, I do not think it a stretch to imagine she went over all the materials that could be soulcasted vs the ones that could not, and made a point to look further into those materials. Aluminum is used in expensive jewelry, so she would most certainly have access to it to experiment on. Given what we know about Jasnah, all it would take is the well known knowledge that aluminum cannot be directly soulcasted on for her interest to be piqued. Even if she didn't start knowing aluminum couldn't be soulcasted, as I said I do not think it a stretch at all that she would test her ability on a whole host of metals and materials to practice. So I think it is entirely plausible that Jasnah would

1. know what aluminum is

2. know its properties of resisting investiture

3. know how to soulcast items and things into aluminum. 

 

I have included below some WoB that I think are also pertinent to this discussion. 

Questioner
Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner
So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson
So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

 

H4rg
I would have a question about Soulcasting : is Soulcasting an invested object harder ? And if it is a human (lets say, an Allomancer) but he is not burning any metal, would he be as easy as Soulcast as any "normal" person ?

Brandon Sanderson
It is harder to Soulcast an invested object, but Soulcasters--by their nature--are used to dealing with this.

When Allomancers aren't burning metal, they are not considered highly-invested.

 

Questioner
If I were to impulsively Soulcast pewter, the way Shallan does with the blood in The Way of Kings, would it come out that an Allomancer be able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson
You could create Allomantically viable metals, yes.

Questioner
But is it automatic?

Brandon Sanderson
I would say that the pure metals are, but the alloys are not.

 

To put those WoB in context (as in why I brought them up). They show that a standard soulcaster (fabrial) is used to getting through an object's natural investiture. They are so used to it, that a standard soulcaster (fabrial) could soulcast through a metalmind invested with a stored attribute. For me, if a standard soulcaster (fabrial) could do it, then I see no reason why a soulcaster (radiant) could not only do the same, but even better. The last WoB confirms it is possible to soulcast allomantically viable metals. Aluminum is one of those metals. The only caveat is if it is an alloy, the soulcaster would have to intend to make it rather than just make pure metals automatically. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357]

@Pathfinder

I actually agree with you. Jasnah has the edge. I think at this point we're arguing frequency rather than capabilities. As long as Jasnah has Stormlight she can beat Kaladin in a stand-up fight between Radiants. I would probably say if they had the same fight 10 times she'd probably win 7. You and others probably would say at least 9 of 10. 

By the way, a fully Oath Kaladin in a fight is going to be one of the most heavily Invested beings in the Cosmere. If he's fighting there's no way he's not holding Stormlight. And he's not going to be burning through Stormlight as quickly. His surges do not have to overcome enrmy Investiture to do what he wants. Meanwhile every move Jasnah makes on the Soulcasting side pushes against the innate Investiture of the object being cast. In a prolonged fight that resistance adds up.

[Turin Turambar]

Jasnah. There's no way she'd go into a fight without being prepared.She'd have taken Kaladin's abilities into account.

[Quantus]

27 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

Jasnah. There's no way she'd go into a fight without being prepared.She'd have taken Kaladin's abilities into account.

That is assuming she is forewarned while he is not, and she has no particular advantage in that arena; she can be caught as unprepared as any other mortal, with the possible exception of Renarin. 

 

I tend to agree with many here, Jasnah and Soulcasting can trump just about anything Kaladin can bring to the table. Though I do agree that if Stormlight is taken out of the equation, Kaladin would almost certainly win a more traditional martial fight. He has more training, battlefield experience, and as far as I can tell Natural Talent than anything we've seen Jasnah demonstrate.  The biggest advantage Jasnah would have in such a fight is that she is far less hindered by traditions honorable combat and/or silly gender roles, and would be more likely to skip straight to any devastatingly brutal options that might present themselves, while Kaladin would be the one more likely to hesitate. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Quantus

[Turin Turambar]

If stormlight were taken out of the equation, then Kaladin wouldn't have a weapon. I'm pretty sure he stopped carrying around a spear when he realized that Syl could become a shardspear. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

His surges do not have to overcome enrmy Investiture to do what he wants.

Not to the same extent, no... But yes they do. Anything invested is going to be harder to lash. Just look at shardplate. He's not going to have the same level of resistance most likely, but it is going to cost him more. 

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Pathfinder

I actually agree with you. Jasnah has the edge. I think at this point we're arguing frequency rather than capabilities. As long as Jasnah has Stormlight she can beat Kaladin in a stand-up fight between Radiants. I would probably say if they had the same fight 10 times she'd probably win 7. You and others probably would say at least 9 of 10. 

By the way, a fully Oath Kaladin in a fight is going to be one of the most heavily Invested beings in the Cosmere. If he's fighting there's no way he's not holding Stormlight. And he's not going to be burning through Stormlight as quickly. His surges do not have to overcome enemy Investiture to do what he wants. Meanwhile every move Jasnah makes on the Soulcasting side pushes against the innate Investiture of the object being cast. In a prolonged fight that resistance adds up.

Thing is there is a lot we do not know about the capabilities of a fully oathed Radiant. Using adhesion and gravitation on himself Kaladin wouldn't be coming against any natural investiture, but any use of adhesion or gravitation on Jasnah would come into the same issues you point out she would have on him. Investiture resists investiture. It is why a radiant has to dismiss their plate, and (seemingly) not hold stormlight in order for someone else to lash them. Potentially Kaladin can, but it would take a whole lot more stormlight to do so. I lean in Jasnah's favor because there are two WoB saying a soulcaster is more practiced getting through investiture than most, so Jasnah would already have experience asserting her will on things that resist. It wouldn't be easy, never said it would be, but out of the two, I would lean towards Jasnah pushing through investiture better than Kaladin. I do not think we have examples in book or WoB that say lashing someone invested would inherently be easier than soulcasting someone. Same thing with adhesion, or abrasion and so on. I mean we could reason it would be harder, but we do not have any real example to base it on. Or at least to the best of my recollection. If you have a book reference or WoB where it shows Kaladin or someone lashing someone infused with investiture, holding stormlight, or encased in shardplate I would love to see it. Not being sarcastic, I am being completely genuine. If I missed something I always would love to learn more. But as far as I can recall, Kaladin has just as much issue lashing invested items as Jasnah would soulcasting them. Kaladin can easily lash rocks and such, just like Jasnah can easily soulcast them. 

 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Not to the same extent, no... But yes they do. Anything invested is going to be harder to lash. Just look at shardplate. He's not going to have the same level of resistance most likely, but it is going to cost him more. 

I asked Bigmikey the same. Out of genuine curiosity, do we have any WoB or in book examples showing Kaladin lashing someone or something invested is not as difficult as soulcasting someone or something invested? I do agree the logic would follow, but I am wondering if we have any particular instances to draw upon. 

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I asked Bigmikey the same. Out of genuine curiosity, do we have any WoB or in book examples showing Kaladin lashing someone or something invested is not as difficult as soulcasting someone or something invested? I do agree the logic would follow, but I am wondering if we have any particular instances to draw upon. 

No. Not that I'm aware of. 

The only Surges I'm aware of that we have an actual WoB concerning are the Stonewards Surges. I made a thread concerning the hierarchy of how I believe the work against people shortly following that WoB though, rather than re-explain I'll just link it. 

Warning: Mistborn spoilers

Edit: As far as what we know for fact though, to my knowledge there's nothing to say that Soulcasting a person is any more difficult than lashing. Just common assumption.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No. Not that I'm aware of. 

The only Surges I'm aware of that we have an actual WoB concerning are the Stonewards Surges. I made a thread concerning the hierarchy of how I believe the work against people shortly following that WoB though, rather than re-explain I'll just link it. 

Edit: As far as what we know for fact though, to my knowledge there's nothing to say that Soulcasting a person is any more difficult than lashing. Just common assumption.

Hmmmm, interesting. Soulcasting does seem to be an outlier like you said in your thread. Makes me wonder what is unique about soulcasters being used to pushing through investiture results in them being able to do so (such as soulcasting people or invested objects like a metal mind), meanwhile even "small" amounts of investiture would interfere with with a stoneward using cohesion enough to prevent it from being done on a person at all. Interesting theory regarding why that may be. It does certainly sound plausible to me that a brief change that maintains the form but changes the composition would be less resistant than changing the form itself from its ideal. I am not sure where I land on it yet, but I do see what you are going for. 

[Bigmikey357]

This may sound like I'm sidestepping the question but in terms of Kaladin fighting I never pictured him lashing someone directly.  It's obviously something that can be done but that seems more Szeth with his akido-like martial arts. In a fight he may make the ground sticky or if they're fighting on a platform he might try to collapse it. Kaladin's best bet is to run Jasnah out of Stormlight, similar to the best way to kill Mistborn burning Atium is to make them use it up. How to do this? Throw things at her from distance. Jasnah can soulcast at range but it can't be more than a few feet. Kaladin can lash rocks at her just outside her range. He can maintain distance because he's faster than her. Jasnah either will have to dodge or soulcast them away. Any attempt at Transportation gets the Syl warning system. That's the only feasible way Kaladin beats Jasnah. Outmaneuver until she runs dry the use his superior fighting abilities to close the deal.

[Karger]

I believe that during his fight with Amaram Kaladin lashes a giant fused.

[+Invocation]

14 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Kaladin's best bet is to run Jasnah out of Stormlight, similar to the best way to kill Mistborn burning Atium is to make them use it up. How to do this?

Trouble with that is, Kaladin's Stormlight burns off fast. Faster than a lot of other Radiants. It's unclear how that matches up to Jasnah's, but I'll bet his goes out first, allowing Jasnah to get in close with magic left in the tank.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Invocation

[Bigmikey357]

11 hours ago, Invocation said:

Trouble with that is, Kaladin's Stormlight burns off fast. Faster than a lot of other Radiants. It's unclear how that matches up to Jasnah's, but I'll bet his goes out first, allowing Jasnah to get in close with magic left in the tank.

1. If he's not constantly in flight it's not going to burn off as fast. 

2. If he's a full 5 Radiant he burns more efficiently. Of course the same applies to Jasnah. 

3. If he's throwing and lashing a barrage of knives and rocks and debris at Jasnah it forces her to use up her Stormlight, which costs more for her to use per surge, on defense. Why does it cost more for Jas? Overcoming the innate Investiture of the objects she soulcasts. It costs less to direct an object than it does to change it to something else.

 

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. If he's not constantly in flight it's not going to burn off as fast. 

It's implied that Windrunners and their Investiture usage is loud, i.e. leaking faster than most Radiants to, and at least from the Kholinar episode, we know Kaladin is very much louder than Shallan when doing things. To me, this correlates to the Stormlight running off faster (which, admittedly, might not be true) than Shallan's. It seems logical to me also that the Order that shares a Surge with Shallan's would be quieter (read: can hold Light longer, possibly also assisted by Jasnah's experience) than Kaladin as well, and Lashing objects would require more than the Soulcasting, especially since Jasnah probably wouldn't Soulcast the obstacles and just dodge with the enhanced mobility of Stormlight.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

2. If he's a full 5 Radiant he burns more efficiently. Of course the same applies to Jasnah. 

That's fair, but yes, Jasnah would receive the same boost, with it maybe not being standard across all orders, so there's a chance she will be more more than him.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

3. If he's throwing and lashing a barrage of knives and rocks and debris at Jasnah it forces her to use up her Stormlight, which costs more for her to use per surge, on defense. Why does it cost more for Jas? Overcoming the innate Investiture of the objects she soulcasts. It costs less to direct an object than it does to change it to something else.

She doesn't have to Soulcast everything. She can just move, using no Stormlight other than the little bit for enhanced mobility.

[Bigmikey357]

Illumination is quieter. Soulcasting isn't. That's why Hoid had to roll out the aluminum siding so that the Wall Guard in Kholinar could feed themselves when the Fused laid siege.

What if he lashes something too large to dodge? Or 5 or 20 little objects at slightly different trajectories? There are ways to do it that'll force her to Soulcast, even if it's just a wall to block incoming objects.

Again I'm only proposing a way for Kaladin to win against the ridiculously powerful surges Jasnah can bring to the table. We know that the powers aren't balanced and that some have better applications in some situations than others. I've stated that Jasnah wins a fight with Kaladin more times than she loses, particularly if they're of equal Oaths and start off with the same amount of Stormlight. I'm just saying not to count out Kaladin so easily. He's nearly as smart, has more combat experience and is younger than Jasnah. This is like the Cosmere Battle Royal post where people argued TLR would destroy everything in an eyeblink without taking into account some of the other overpowered participants, the Heralds restored in particular.

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

This may sound like I'm sidestepping the question but in terms of Kaladin fighting I never pictured him lashing someone directly.  It's obviously something that can be done but that seems more Szeth with his akido-like martial arts. In a fight he may make the ground sticky or if they're fighting on a platform he might try to collapse it. Kaladin's best bet is to run Jasnah out of Stormlight, similar to the best way to kill Mistborn burning Atium is to make them use it up. How to do this? Throw things at her from distance. Jasnah can soulcast at range but it can't be more than a few feet. Kaladin can lash rocks at her just outside her range. He can maintain distance because he's faster than her. Jasnah either will have to dodge or soulcast them away. Any attempt at Transportation gets the Syl warning system. That's the only feasible way Kaladin beats Jasnah. Outmaneuver until she runs dry the use his superior fighting abilities to close the deal.

Szeth primarily lashed normal people. He comments to himself at the beginning of Way of Kings about being unable to lash a shardbearer in shardplate. I can see making the ground sticky, though Jasnah could teleport away, or soulcast away the object that was infused with adhesion. She would have to go through the investiture Kaladin put into it, but as mentioned in the prior WoB, soulcasters are used to dealing with that. Considering how invested a metal mind can be (enough that they can’t be pushed on without duralumin or being a savant), that says to me Jasnah could get through it pretty deftly

As to the range of Jasnah’s soulcasting, frankly we have no clue what the range is. We know she can do it at ranged, but not the distance measured. I checked back at my “Jasnah, More than Meets the Eye” thread to read the scene again, and all it says is “the other two men fled in opposite directions. Jasnah took a deep breath, closing her eyes, lifting her hand above her head. Stormlight shot from Jasnah’s hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical. One struck each of the footpads and they popped, puffing into smoke.” So the implication to me is they ran away roughly equidistant from Jasnah. If in either man’s case it had mentioned how far away he was then we could attempt to judge, but frankly we just don’t have it. I would have to pore over Oathbringer, because there are multiple scenes where Jasnah soulcasts at range, perhaps there it is mentioned. If I recall correctly she soulcasts a pit under an enemy running towards her, soulcasts a sheet of oil at an enemy flying at her, and soulcasts steps while she runs up them. I will get back to you regarding this once I am able to dig into it.

As to Kaladin shooting rocks at Jasnah, he first has to cut up pieces to do so, which takes time, and once he launches them he loses control over their trajectory, which would aid in her dodging them. Why would Syl be able to warn Kaladin about Jasnah teleporting? The “wind sense” was during combat, close quarters with him already aware of all parties. We also do not know the full extent of this “wind sense” nor how it works. So I think it is a bit premature to assume Syl would be like an alert fabrial, able to warn Kaladin as to where ever Jasnah is going to teleport into.

 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

I believe that during his fight with Amaram Kaladin lashes a giant fused.

That is an excellent point. Makes me wonder if that fused potentially was not as “invested” at the time. We see the gravitation fused continually have it active and fly around meanwhile that fused occasionally morphs his body in bursts and then stops. Could also the nature of voidlight operate differently? I believe there was a thread/discussion about voidlight not healing the voidbringers, while stormlight does. So maybe that played into why he was able to be lashed? Now that you mention it, I feel a vague recollection that Szeth was able to put a lashing on a gravitation fused to throw off its flight. Unless I am confusing scenes. Hmmm much to think about there.

 

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. If he's not constantly in flight it's not going to burn off as fast. 

2. If he's a full 5 Radiant he burns more efficiently. Of course the same applies to Jasnah. 

3. If he's throwing and lashing a barrage of knives and rocks and debris at Jasnah it forces her to use up her Stormlight, which costs more for her to use per surge, on defense. Why does it cost more for Jas? Overcoming the innate Investiture of the objects she soulcasts. It costs less to direct an object than it does to change it to something else.

 

1. With his fight with Amaram he was constantly in flight because he was concerned if he touched the ground, Amaram would change it to mud and capture him again. I could see that being a concern for him with Jasnah and her soulcasting, so I think it would be reasonable to consider he would maintain in flight.

2. As you said, them being both 5^th oath would result in them both having the same level of stormlight efficiency. Now whether lashing vs soulcasting takes a different amount of stormlight to use, I believe that depends on what is being lashed/soulcasted.

3. I have already responded to the point about throwing rocks at her. Kaladin first has to produce them to begin with and can potentially run out. When lashed, he loses control over their direction, and finally in order to give small weapons the kind of momentum necessary over a small distance would require, in my opinion, more stormlight than is worth the endeavor considering she could just dodge them.

1 hour ago, Invocation said:

It's implied that Windrunners and their Investiture usage is loud, i.e. leaking faster than most Radiants to, and at least from the Kholinar episode, we know Kaladin is very much louder than Shallan when doing things. To me, this correlates to the Stormlight running off faster (which, admittedly, might not be true) than Shallan's. It seems logical to me also that the Order that shares a Surge with Shallan's would be quieter (read: can hold Light longer, possibly also assisted by Jasnah's experience) than Kaladin as well, and Lashing objects would require more than the Soulcasting, especially since Jasnah probably wouldn't Soulcast the obstacles and just dodge with the enhanced mobility of Stormlight.

That's fair, but yes, Jasnah would receive the same boost, with it maybe not being standard across all orders, so there's a chance she will be more more than him.

She doesn't have to Soulcast everything. She can just move, using no Stormlight other than the little bit for enhanced mobility.

That is true. From the scene in Kholinar it does seem Shallan’s lightweaving requires less stormlight than Kaladin potentially.

I agree about Jasnah being able to dodge the projectiles.

 

40 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Illumination is quieter. Soulcasting isn't. That's why Hoid had to roll out the aluminum siding so that the Wall Guard in Kholinar could feed themselves when the Fused laid siege.

What if he lashes something too large to dodge? Or 5 or 20 little objects at slightly different trajectories? There are ways to do it that'll force her to Soulcast, even if it's just a wall to block incoming objects.

Again I'm only proposing a way for Kaladin to win against the ridiculously powerful surges Jasnah can bring to the table. We know that the powers aren't balanced and that some have better applications in some situations than others. I've stated that Jasnah wins a fight with Kaladin more times than she loses, particularly if they're of equal Oaths and start off with the same amount of Stormlight. I'm just saying not to count out Kaladin so easily. He's nearly as smart, has more combat experience and is younger than Jasnah. This is like the Cosmere Battle Royal post where people argued TLR would destroy everything in an eyeblink without taking into account some of the other overpowered participants, the Heralds restored in particular.

Again I have to ask, where is he getting these objects to throw at her? I could understand if she was creating them, and he was throwing them back at her, but for me, Jasnah would be making things of aluminum, which kaladin would be unable to lash. So where is he producing these objects to shoot at her?

I totally understand, and I hope this clarifies why I am responding as I am. I view this as a thought experiment. Taking the tools at our disposal, what do we think the characters can achieve. I am not trying to do this to say “hey kaladin sux” or anything (not saying you were accusing me of that).

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again I have to ask, where is he getting these objects to throw at her? I could understand if she was creating them, and he was throwing them back at her, but for me, Jasnah would be making things of aluminum, which kaladin would be unable to lash. So where is he producing these objects to shoot at her?

He has a shardblade so he can cut rocks out of the ground if he needs to and can't find them.