Jasnah V Kaladin

[Bigmikey357]

Kaladin doesn't wanna be in Jasnah's Soulcasting range. Very bad idea. She's not going to let him into grappling range because though she cannot cast him directly she can make the very air around Kaladin into a weapon. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

What happens if shardplate Kaladin goes in for some kind of grappling move?  Pinning him is almost impossible as any direction can be down soulcasting is not going to help(Kal is directly resitant and transforming the area is dangerous) and I am not sure if the way Jasnah teleports would allow her to escape a hold(she might take him with her).

I'm not sure what good it would do to lash himself while grappling. He would not be able lash Jasnah since she has plate.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

What happens if shardplate Kaladin goes in for some kind of grappling move?  Pinning him is almost impossible as any direction can be down soulcasting is not going to help(Kal is directly resitant and transforming the area is dangerous) and I am not sure if the way Jasnah teleports would allow her to escape a hold(she might take him with her).

So although I do not have concrete evidence to back up what I am about to say, there are two things I feel support it. I believe a radiant using the surge of transportation can exclude anyone they wish when they transport. In other words I do not think just because Kaladin is touching Jasnah, that he would automatically be brought along for the ride. Now as to the two reasons I believe this.

First, there is a WoB where an individual asked about the scene where Adolin sees Jasnah throw the fused the length of the alley. That coupled with what she did to the three men (soulcast and push one, that then pushed the next with the same amount of force, that then pushed the next with the same amount of force) led the questioner to wonder if transportation also allowed the wielder to control inertia and do a kind of "force push". Brandon responded that it is possible to move someone else with transportation, but not in the way the person is thinking. I believe Brandon was implying that you could teleport someone away, without also teleporting yourself. I am having some slight difficulty finding it because I cannot think of the wording the person and brandon used and I do not have the time right now to dig properly. If anyone recognized my description, please feel free to post it.

Second, the oathgates can transport enmasse, or be selective. Now true it is the difference between the entire platform, vs inside just the control building, but being able to select when people are still on the gate platform denotes to me the ability to be selective. And that is with a fabrial. I would imagine a radiant would have greater proficiency, if not number (be able to be even more selective, even though they probably cannot transport as many as the oathgate). 

 

So in summation, I believe that Jasnah could teleport herself away without having to carry Kaladin with her just because he is grappling her. As to using soulcasting, since Kaladin could not lash Jasnah without using a massive amount of his own stores, theoretically jasnah could just soulcast oil/fat all over her own armor to slip out of his grasp. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So in summation, I believe that Jasnah could teleport herself away without having to carry Kaladin with her just because he is grappling her. As to using soulcasting, since Kaladin could not lash Jasnah without using a massive amount of his own stores, theoretically jasnah could just soulcast oil/fat all over her own armor to slip out of his grasp. 

I am not sure this would work as Jasnah would have to look into shadesmar while fighting.  This is a dangerous prospect as her ability to see real world events might be altered(She might try and soulcast and come back to discover Kaladin has shattered her helm).  Also Providing Kaladin with a combustible seems like a bad idea given what he is able to do with pressure.

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I'm not sure what good it would do to lash himself while grappling. He would not be able lash Jasnah since she has plate.

Try pinning someone to the ceiling.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Try pinning someone to the ceiling.

I'm not sure how well that would work. Kal probably has at least 30 pounds on Jasnah, but they're both in plate so its pretty negligible. He'd basically be lifting her into the air gently. I also don't know how much good it would do him to grapple with her. He is very inexperienced with plate, and since they both have it, their strength is close enough to being equal that it wouldn't be a factor. In my opinion, his best chance (slim though it seems to me) would be his martial ability with the spear.

Personally I see the fight ending with Kal soulcast inside of a block of something a la Han Solo in Empire.

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I'm not sure how well that would work. Kal probably has at least 30 pounds on Jasnah, but they're both in plate so its pretty negligible. He'd basically be lifting her into the air gently. I also don't know how much good it would do him to grapple with her. He is very inexperienced with plate, and since they both have it, their strength is close enough to being equal that it wouldn't be a factor. In my opinion, his best chance (slim though it seems to me) would be his martial ability with the spear.

I am not sure that in a grapple plate experience matters that much.  Is it not the same as normal grappling but choke holds are out?

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not sure this would work as Jasnah would have to look into shadesmar while fighting.  This is a dangerous prospect as her ability to see real world events might be altered(She might try and soulcast and come back to discover Kaladin has shattered her helm).  Also Providing Kaladin with a combustible seems like a bad idea given what he is able to do with pressure.

Try pinning someone to the ceiling.

Jasnah didn't seem to have any problem peering into the cognitive realm while fighting at thaylenah before the effect of bringing the realms together kicked in. As I mentioned in a prior post she soulcasted steps from the air, soulcasted three men in succession with the "disease like" soulcasting, and soulcasted a wall away to smoke without pause or difficulty. Then Renarin felt the effects of the bringing the realms together. It is not like she cannot see the real world any longer when she soulcasts. What she does is kind of half "dip in" getting a form of double vision. This double vision was even easier during the realms being brought together, but she can still certainly do it (as per her own thoughts) outside that event. 

As to providing Kaladin with a combustible, how many arms does our dear bridgeman have? Basically the order of events I am gathering from you would be:

1. Kaladin gets in close and grapples Jasnah

2. Jasnah soulcasts fat to attempt to slip out

3. Kaladin while still grappling Jasnah, creates a pressure effect to pull all the near by oxygen in close

4 Kaladin grows an extra hand to then reach out and lash a stone with enough lashes to have it hit the ground creating a spark (which as explained in a prior post would require certain types of stone such as flint, so any old stone wouldn't do) to then blow both Jasnah and himself up

 

So I do not see this being possible for a myriad of reasons. First he would need to get close to her and grapple her. Second she would have to be unable to teleport away which I do not think would be the case. Third, Jasnah soulcasting a layer of fat around her to escape, she could then just soulcast it to smoke or air right after she escapes, like she did with the oil she used to burn the fused. Fourth assuming Kaladin could create the pressure effect that would pull all the oxygen towards them (which I do not think would be possible either), that would be a massive pull on Kaladin's stormlight. Fifth, as shown in a prior post, the amount of lashes it would take to cause a stone to move with enough momentum to create a spark would be yet another massive pull on all of Kaladin's stormlight. Sixth, the likelihood of having the right type of stone nearby to lash to create said spark is incredibly low resulting in just breaking the rock and not actually igniting anything. Finally assuming Kaladin some how accomplishes all of these things, by grappling Jasnah he would also end up blowing himself up, and given all the stormlight he had to use to accomplish all these feats, it is more likely that he would end up burning himself to death than her. 

Now a separate question is the environment in which our two combatants meet. I was going on the assumption that both parties start in a clear large open stone field. I assumed such a scenario would end up benefiting Kaladin because of his flight capabilities. If however you would like it to be in an enclosed space, I could see that actually benefiting Jasnah. Imagine the opening scenes of Szeth in the castle going for Gavilar, but Jasnah was there to create barriers behind him, above him, below him. Boxing him in. Even if they were made of stone and he had to cut them to get through, that would still slow him down, hamper his maneuverability, and help Jasnah own the battlefield. 

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not sure that in a grapple plate experience matters that much.  Is it not the same as normal grappling but choke holds are out?

Grappling, to the best of my knowledge is always more dependent on experience than strength. Judo being a prime example of this. Joint locks and choke holds I am not sure would be as effective on a power armored opponent, regardless if both involved are similarly armored. But I am in no way shape or form a judo expert to know. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Grappling, to the best of my knowledge is always more dependent on experience than strength. Judo being a prime example of this. Joint locks and choke holds I am not sure would be as effective on a power armored opponent, regardless if both involved are similarly armored. But I am in no way shape or form a judo expert to know. 

Plate seems to limit range of motion quite a bit. You could probably still use some moves, but it would be pretty awkward. I think the duel where Adolin dismissed his blade and beat the other guy with his fists is a good example of how to go hand to hand with plate. Use its power for strikes rather than holds. Once you shatter a piece, the person underneath is very squishy.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Calderis]

My main issue with the idea of somehow... I don't know the right words here... Gravitation grappling? Is that it's only going to offer a real advantage if you can get them pinned between yourself and something else, otherwise your just swinging at each other in midair... 

But the moment that your pressed against a wall to "pin" the other person, your going to be equally as hampered by gravity as they are in most cases. You need to have Lashed yourself and your plate with enough force to lift its own weight, plus the weight of the other person and their plate... Which is going to hamper your own movements just as much as theirs. Bring pressed against something under multiple gravities is going to get uncomfortable quickly. And may possibly hamper you more that your opponent as you can't lash them in their plate. 

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah didn't seem to have any problem peering into the cognitive realm while fighting at thaylenah before the effect of bringing the realms together kicked in. As I mentioned in a prior post she soulcasted steps from the air, soulcasted three men in succession with the "disease like" soulcasting, and soulcasted a wall away to smoke without pause or difficulty. Then Renarin felt the effects of the bringing the realms together. It is not like she cannot see the real world any longer when she soulcasts. What she does is kind of half "dip in" getting a form of double vision. This double vision was even easier during the realms being brought together, but she can still certainly do it (as per her own thoughts) outside that event. 

Jasnah was on the offensive against unintelligent, thrilled opponents who probably underestimated her.  She easily got rid of them by soulcasting or transporting them neither of which is feasible on Kaladin as he can fly and has armor.  Also Sadeas's soldiers never closed on her.  They spent time running at her yelling which is different from a direct hand to hand combat where half a second is a long time.

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. Kaladin gets in close and grapples Jasnah

2. Jasnah soulcasts fat to attempt to slip out

3. Kaladin increases pressure.

4. Kaladin punches the rock with his shardplate to generate a spark

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Grappling, to the best of my knowledge is always more dependent on experience than strength

I am pretty sure that Kaladin has some experience in regular grappling.  We see he has some skill as he spars with Rock Sig and Lopen in WoR.  I have serious doubts the Jasnah does though.  Who would she practice with?  Dito to Jasnah having experience with plate.

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Plate seems to limit range of motion quite a bit. You could probably still use some moves, but it would be pretty awkward. I think the duel where Adolin dismissed his blade and beat the other guy with his fists is a good example of how to go hand to hand with plate. Use its power for strikes rather than holds. Once you shatter a piece, the person underneath is very squishy.

I agree. To me the biggest advantage of plate is its durability, and strength increase, which would be become a hindrance rather than an aid in a grapple to me. 

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My main issue with the idea of somehow... I don't know the right words here... Gravitation grappling? Is that it's only going to offer a real advantage if you can get them pinned between yourself and something else, otherwise your just swinging at each other in midair... 

But the moment that your pressed against a wall to "pin" the other person, your going to be equally as hampered by gravity as they are in most cases. You need to have Lashed yourself and your plate with enough force to lift its own weight, plus the weight of the other person and their plate... Which is going to hamper your own movements just as much as theirs. Bring pressed against something under multiple gravities is going to get uncomfortable quickly. And may possibly hamper you more that your opponent as you can't lash them in their plate. 

I agree. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Jasnah was on the offensive against unintelligent, thrilled opponents who probably underestimated her.  She easily got rid of them by soulcasting or transporting them neither of which is feasible on Kaladin as he can fly and has armor.  Also Sadeas's soldiers never closed on her.  They spent time running at her yelling which is different from a direct hand to hand combat where half a second is a long time.

3. Kaladin increases pressure.

4. Kaladin punches the rock with his shardplate to generate a spark

I am pretty sure that Kaladin has some experience in regular grappling.  We see he has some skill as he spars with Rock Sig and Lopen in WoR.  I have serious doubts the Jasnah does though.  Who would she practice with?  Dito to Jasnah having experience with plate.

In the case of the three soldiers, she touched the lead one and shoved him transforming him into crystal that then hit another, transferring the momentum to him and transforming him to them hit another and transforming him. So he most definitely did close on her. I included the page number in a prior post, please give the scene a read so we are on the same page as it were lol. Secondly we are saying Jasnah would be soulcasting the air around her, not Kaladin directly, in which again in that scene we see her soulcast steps while running up them, and soulcast a wall easily without pause so I do not see how Kaladin would change that. 

See again, you are saying Kaladin is grappling Jasnah, but then magically grows a third arm to do this to a stone while holding her? if you mean he does this after she slips out, again as I said in a prior post Jasnah can then dismiss the fat just as quickly as she changed it as we see her do in the novels. Also again, the stone would have to be a specific type of stone to accomplish this. So is the entire ground flint or is kaladin just insanely lucky to break up the exact rock he needs to lash at her to cause a spark? Because otherwise all he would accomplish is breaking the rock. 

My point is the plate would not provide any real potential advantages and in fact could potentially hamper such a strategy as in judo choke holds, and joint manipulation is the goal of their grapples which depends on the experience to target them over strength. If you theoretically cannot reach such vulnerabilities, I am not sure how you would capitalize on them, regardless your experience.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Quantus]

@Pathfinder I went off to research and the conversation mostly moved on, but here's more or less what I found on Oxygen & Ozone.  As others have said, both Oxygen and Ozone technically cant burn since combustion is literally defines as Oxygen reacting to some other fuel. So Oxygen cant burn in a vaccum and needs fuel. Ozone is mostly in the same boat in that it's great as a more dense source of oxygen for such reactions but usually needs a fuel. However it is also a molecule at a higher energy state than the atoms want to be at, so it can "degrade" back into o2 and release energy in the process; there seems to be some debate between the chemistry wizards as to whether that can be called burning, and I dont know whether it would look like fire (in a vacuum, again), but it does sound like a high concentration can release that energy quickly enough to potentially give you an explosion, and that's a point worth remembering:  Any significant volume change can give you explosions and/or detonations even without actual fire. If you have some free time I recommend doing a youtube search on Thermite & ice or Thermite & lead, they show how simply driving a phase fast enough can cause a proper detonation (and are shockingly cool). 

Back to oxygen, the critical thing with Oxygen, be it o2, o3 (ozone), or liquid Ox (LOX) is all about concentration.  The higher the atmospheric concentration of Oxygen the more explosively reactive the fuels become, and the more things can be considered a Fuel until the threshold become basically any organic material.  A cloud of pure o2 or o3 can explosively react with just about anything with carbon in it, so for most practical purposes it's going to cause an explosion, though it still needs an ignition source such spark or significant heat source (though that too can be achieved via pure compression as in the old fashion fire piston). LOX does it better than either of those by virtue of being a liquid and thus a wildly more dense source of oxygen for the chemical reaction (861:1 at earth standard sea level).  One big difference is that liquid oxygen will ignite via light impacts if it has a decent fuel present.  For example, they use charcoal briquettes soaked in liquid oxygen as a demotion charge in some things like mining operations where it becomes expensive to use traditional nitrate-based explosives. 

 

EDIT: on the topic of the hampering effects of plate, Im curios to see if this is the case with an actual Radiant creating their own plate.  Shardplate does flex and/or conform to it's wearer to some extent, and forms a similar if lesser Bond in much the same way a deadeye shardblade does.  And one of the biggest downsides to shardblades was thought to be the fact that they were so large and ungainly, until we saw a living shardblade that far more readily adapted to the situation, going from sword to knife to spear.  I suspect, but cant say for certain, that an active radiant in their own manifested Shardplate is going to find that it conforms to their movements far more readily than a dead/borrowed set, especially for the Orders that are more agility-oriented like the edgedancers.  But even if the only change is that they can summon and dismiss it as quickly as they can their blades, that would go a long way to reducing the tactical drawbacks. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Quantus

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

@Pathfinder I went off to research and the conversation mostly moved on, but here's more or less what I found on Oxygen & Ozone.  As others have said, both Oxygen and Ozone technically cant burn since combustion is literally defines as Oxygen reacting to some other fuel. So Oxygen cant burn in a vaccum and needs fuel. Ozone is mostly in the same boat in that it's great as a more dense source of oxygen for such reactions but usually needs a fuel. However it is also a molecule at a higher energy state than the atoms want to be at, so it can "degrade" back into o2 and release energy in the process; there seems to be some debate between the chemistry wizards as to whether that can be called burning, and I dont know whether it would look like fire (in a vacuum, again), but it does sound like a high concentration can release that energy quickly enough to potentially give you an explosion, and that's a point worth remembering:  Any significant volume change can give you explosions and/or detonations even without actual fire. If you have some free time I recommend doing a youtube search on Thermite & ice or Thermite & lead, they show how simply driving a phase fast enough can cause a proper detonation (and are shockingly cool). 

Back to oxygen, the critical thing with Oxygen, be it o2, o3 (ozone), or liquid Ox (LOX) is all about concentration.  The higher the atmospheric concentration of Oxygen the more explosively reactive the fuels become, and the more things can be considered a Fuel until the threshold become basically any organic material.  A cloud of pure o2 or o3 can explosively react with just about anything with carbon in it, so for most practical purposes it's going to cause an explosion, though it still needs an ignition source such spark or significant heat source (though that too can be achieved via pure compression as in the old fashion fire piston). LOX does it better than either of those by virtue of being a liquid and thus a wildly more dense source of oxygen for the chemical reaction (861:1 at earth standard sea level).  One big difference is that liquid oxygen will ignite via light impacts if it has a decent fuel present.  For example, they use charcoal briquettes soaked in liquid oxygen as a demotion charge in some things like mining operations where it becomes expensive to use traditional nitrate-based explosives. 

 

EDIT: on the topic of the hampering effects of plate, Im curios to see if this is the case with an actual Radiant creating their own plate.  Shardplate does flex and/or conform to it's wearer to some extent, and forms a similar if lesser Bond in much the same way a deadeye shardblade does.  And one of the biggest downsides to shardblades was thought to be the fact that they were so large and ungainly, until we saw a living shardblade that far more readily adapted to the situation, going from sword to knife to spear.  I suspect, but cant say for certain, that an active radiant in their own manifested Shardplate is going to find that it conforms to their movements far more readily than a dead/borrowed set, especially for the Orders that are more agility-oriented like the edgedancers.  But even if the only change is that they can summon and dismiss it as quickly as they can their blades, that would go a long way to reducing the tactical drawbacks. 

All that information is great, and thank you so much for going through the trouble of researching it and typing all that up! 

Now I will be completely honest, I am reading up the links you provided, but it will take me a bit to wrap my head around it to comment adequately but I always do work better with seeing something, or doing it myself, so I thought of a way that might help process this information. Given all you said, and given what we understand of Kaladin's powers and how they function, could you describe a means, or how Kaladin could accomplish that? For instance first could just increasing the pressure in a defined area around Jasnah result in the higher concentrations of oxygen that you are referring to, to result in the effect you explained? Second, if Kaladin could attain such concentrations of oxygen due to the localized increase in pressure, would the increase in pressure keep the higher concentrations of oxygen contained in that area? Third, is there a way through manipulating pressure, that Kaladin could create a fire piston, or would he have to actually have or make one to employ it? Finally, if all of the above could be accomplished, save the third, my understanding of using a rock to strike a spark relies on the material of the rock being strong enough to maintain its integrity for the friction to cause the resulting spark. Would the resultant combustible nature increase the likelihood of the spark regardless the composition of the rock?

Hope I didn't overwhelm you with questions. Just trying to understand the function better and how it would apply to the scenario. Thank you!

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

All that information is great, and thank you so much for going through the trouble of researching it and typing all that up! 

Now I will be completely honest, I am reading up the links you provided, but it will take me a bit to wrap my head around it to comment adequately but I always do work better with seeing something, or doing it myself, so I thought of a way that might help process this information. Given all you said, and given what we understand of Kaladin's powers and how they function, could you describe a means, or how Kaladin could accomplish that? For instance first could just increasing the pressure in a defined area around Jasnah result in the higher concentrations of oxygen that you are referring to, to result in the effect you explained? Second, if Kaladin could attain such concentrations of oxygen due to the localized increase in pressure, would the increase in pressure keep the higher concentrations of oxygen contained in that area? Third, is there a way through manipulating pressure, that Kaladin could create a fire piston, or would he have to actually have or make one to employ it? Finally, if all of the above could be accomplished, save the third, my understanding of using a rock to strike a spark relies on the material of the rock being strong enough to maintain its integrity for the friction to cause the resulting spark. Would the resultant combustible nature increase the likelihood of the spark regardless the composition of the rock?

Hope I didn't overwhelm you with questions. Just trying to understand the function better and how it would apply to the scenario. Thank you!

Ok, so in practical application it's probably not going to work within the timeframes of any direct fight, though he were trying to accomplish something sneaky with more time he might be able to pull a LOX bomb off (if at far more difficulty than a soulcaster or dustbringer).  So this is very much a distant tangent to the actual topic of Windrunner Vs Elsecaller.

Fundamentally, if you compress a gas it heats up, if you decompress a gas it cools down.  So if you have a collection object (basically a metal container, and repeatedly decompress a gas in or near it, you will lower its temperature by an incremental amount, and if you can do that repeatedly it will get lower and lower until it starts cooling the air and various elements start to liquefy at normal atmospheric temperature. The way we do  this is by first compressing the air, giving it a bit of time to equalize back to room temperature, and then releasing the gas to atmospheric pressure which cools the gas and whatever it's touching.  This basic concept is how we do most of our refrigeration, with minor changes depending on the compressor fluid used (air, Co2 for dry ice, various refrigerants with beneficial thermal properties, etc).  Assuming that a Windrunner can directly create magical Vacuum rather than just the compression that we can, they'd be able to skip the compression and temperature equalizing step, but the pressure difference at each "release" cycle would be a lot smaller (1 atmosphere as compared to the 100-ish that industrial compressors will often do) so they'd need more cycles, at which point the limiting factor becomes how fast they can crank those cycles out magically.  

Now if some combination of Pressure and Gravitation allows him to be chemically selective, such that he can choose to move just oxygen atoms rather than the whole air mixture, he can fiddle with the Oxygen concentration directly. Then said Windrunner would be using the same mechanism as the Flame Alchemist from FMA.  He'd could generally skip the liquefaction idea entirely and be able to just make a bubble of high percent oxygen atmosphere around the target, then use any available spark (or a tiny bit of super-compressed air for ignition heat the way flame pistons work) to burn a person up using their own hair and skin and clothing as the fuel.  Though the liquefaction described above would still be on the table as a way to make an inexpensive bomb. 

[Karger]

On 3/19/2019 at 9:21 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I'm not sure how well that would work. Kal probably has at least 30 pounds on Jasnah, but they're both in plate so its pretty negligible. He'd basically be lifting her into the air gently. I also don't know how much good it would do him to grapple with her. He is very inexperienced with plate, and since they both have it, their strength is close enough to being equal that it wouldn't be a factor. In my opinion, his best chance (slim though it seems to me) would be his martial ability with the spear.

I meant it would be basically impossible for Jasnah to pin Kaladin as he could just reverse gravity.

[Calderis]

I work with HVAC systems regularly, and the cooling provided is cause by the state change of a liquid to a gas that is induced by pressure... But your not going to get that in an open environment. 

Trying to to do this in an open environment is just going to to fluctuate the temperature back and forth, and never reach a point of cooling that oxygen will liquify. 

Refrigeration works by compressing a gas to a liquid, and then allowing it to expand and steal heat for the phase change. It's the transition from a liquid to a gas that creates the cooling by ribbing energy from the surrounding materials. The introduction of pressure, and we're talking about a lot of pressure, is to force the gas back into a liquid state. 

I don't think your going to create liquid O² in an open air environment by this method at all. I don't think it's possible. The surrounding temperature is going to be to high, and the medium to create the temperature shift through phase change would need to be something other than and isolated from, the oxygen itself. 

[Pathfinder]

59 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ok, so in practical application it's probably not going to work within the timeframes of any direct fight, though he were trying to accomplish something sneaky with more time he might be able to pull a LOX bomb off (if at far more difficulty than a soulcaster or dustbringer).  So this is very much a distant tangent to the actual topic of Windrunner Vs Elsecaller.

Fundamentally, if you compress a gas it heats up, if you decompress a gas it cools down.  So if you have a collection object (basically a metal container, and repeatedly decompress a gas in or near it, you will lower its temperature by an incremental amount, and if you can do that repeatedly it will get lower and lower until it starts cooling the air and various elements start to liquefy at normal atmospheric temperature. The way we do  this is by first compressing the air, giving it a bit of time to equalize back to room temperature, and then releasing the gas to atmospheric pressure which cools the gas and whatever it's touching.  This basic concept is how we do most of our refrigeration, with minor changes depending on the compressor fluid used (air, Co2 for dry ice, various refrigerants with beneficial thermal properties, etc).  Assuming that a Windrunner can directly create magical Vacuum rather than just the compression that we can, they'd be able to skip the compression and temperature equalizing step, but the pressure difference at each "release" cycle would be a lot smaller (1 atmosphere as compared to the 100-ish that industrial compressors will often do) so they'd need more cycles, at which point the limiting factor becomes how fast they can crank those cycles out magically.  

Now if some combination of Pressure and Gravitation allows him to be chemically selective, such that he can choose to move just oxygen atoms rather than the whole air mixture, he can fiddle with the Oxygen concentration directly. Then said Windrunner would be using the same mechanism as the Flame Alchemist from FMA.  He'd could generally skip the liquefaction idea entirely and be able to just make a bubble of high percent oxygen atmosphere around the target, then use any available spark (or a tiny bit of super-compressed air for ignition heat the way flame pistons work) to burn a person up using their own hair and skin and clothing as the fuel.  Though the liquefaction described above would still be on the table as a way to make an inexpensive bomb. 

Ok, so to make sure I understand, Kaladin would potentially need to do these actions to accomplish this:

1. Do a reverse lashing/gravitation pull to pull all the surrounding gas in the air centrally to Jasnah

2. Increase the pressure and decrease the pressure selectively around Jasnah of the gas that is being continually pulled towards Jasnah to keep the effect localized

3. Then once the perimeters have been met, use pressure to create a flame piston to ignite it all

 

So first and foremost, love all the learning going on here. Thanks again for all that info! Second, based on all that, i do not see that working on Jasnah lol. To me she can either teleport away easily before this gets anywhere near what you are saying, or theoretically soulcast the air back to normal air negating any progress the alternating increase/decrease of pressure would have created. If theoretically Jasnah could (had she been successful) have soulcasted the poison out of strawberry jam (which she implies she could have considering she admits she is personally not good with organics, which I do not believe air is included in this rationale) then I would imagine she could soulcast the air in such a way to return it to its prior state (unconcentrated, and different temperature). Finally there is also the issue range and how much stormlight is required. A reverse lashing, which is the one that causes its own gravitation pull in a radius, requires constant touch to maintain, and relatively weak so would need a higher amount of stormlight to cause the same effect. 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I meant it would be basically impossible for Jasnah to pin Kaladin as he could just reverse gravity.

Thing is if Kaladin somehow pins Jasnah to the ground, Jasnah could then soulcast bonds around them completely, and teleport out, leaving Kaladin "pinned". True in that case he could break out, because it would have to not be aluminum for her to teleport out, but it would slow him down and potentially cause this idea to backfire. 

[Karger]

54 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I would imagine she could soulcast the air in such a way to return it to its prior state (unconcentrated, and different temperature)

I don't think you can create or destroy mass via soulcasating so no she could not soulcast the air back into its original state as their is more air in a given area.  You cannot soulcast air into less air by my understanding of the surge.

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thing is if Kaladin somehow pins Jasnah to the ground, Jasnah could then soulcast bonds around them completely, and teleport out, leaving Kaladin "pinned". True in that case he could break out, because it would have to not be aluminum for her to teleport out, but it would slow him down and potentially cause this idea to backfire. 

Again we do not know how teleportation works, if it works by opening a perpendicularity then Jasnah may take Kaladin with her or be unable to teleport if he keeps a strong hold.  Also I think it is easier for Kaladin to move a given mass then it is for Jasnah to create it in terms of stormlight consumption so doing so would drain more of her stormlight then his leaving her at a disadvantages after she completes this maneuver.

[Quantus]

50 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, so to make sure I understand, Kaladin would potentially need to do these actions to accomplish this:

1. Do a reverse lashing/gravitation pull to pull all the surrounding gas in the air centrally to Jasnah

2. Increase the pressure and decrease the pressure selectively around Jasnah of the gas that is being continually pulled towards Jasnah to keep the effect localized

3. Then once the perimeters have been met, use pressure to create a flame piston to ignite it all

 

So first and foremost, love all the learning going on here. Thanks again for all that info! Second, based on all that, i do not see that working on Jasnah lol. To me she can either teleport away easily before this gets anywhere near what you are saying, or theoretically soulcast the air back to normal air negating any progress the alternating increase/decrease of pressure would have created. If theoretically Jasnah could (had she been successful) have soulcasted the poison out of strawberry jam (which she implies she could have considering she admits she is personally not good with organics, which I do not believe air is included in this rationale) then I would imagine she could soulcast the air in such a way to return it to its prior state (unconcentrated, and different temperature). Finally there is also the issue range and how much stormlight is required. A reverse lashing, which is the one that causes its own gravitation pull in a radius, requires constant touch to maintain, and relatively weak so would need a higher amount of stormlight to cause the same effect.

Not quite, but yes in nearly any scenario I can think of Jasnah would be able to counter and destroy a windrunner trying this. If Lashing are a thing that can be applied to selective gasses (ie just oxygen and excluding the Nitrogen part of air), then all he'd have to do is maintain one long enough to spike the O2 concentration around her and then ignite it with a small flame piston pressure effect; that's the only route that I'd see being fast enough to be useful in a fight, and she'd still be able to do the exact same thing faster by Soulcasting the nitrogen into Oxygen, then a touch of Fire Essence.  The cycling only comes into play if he's trying to make a liquid oxygen grenade, and that would be more about cycling the air pressures to supercool a metal container until liquid oxygen started condensing out of the air, then you add charcoal as fuel and throw it, the impact would be enough to ignite it without a spark.  If he could also lash that object to pull only o2 it would work faster, but isnt necessary since oxygen condenses before the nitrogen.  If you somehow managed to do that actively around a person rather than in a container, you'd already have frozen them solid before any ignition became necessary. 

Wikipedia on Liquid Oxygen Explosives

Homemade liquid Nitrogen Generator (same general principle as Liquid Oxygen)

 

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't think you can create or destroy mass via soulcasating so no she could not soulcast the air back into its original state as their is more air in a given area.  You cannot soulcast air into less air by my understanding of the surge.

Per WOB soulcasting does violate conservation of mass in some instances.  The most obvious ones we've seen are when they soulcast lighter materials into Stone or Metal, particularly when they soulcast lighteyed corpses and get a statue of the same dimensions rather than much smaller but the same weight.  That being said I have no idea what the specifics or limitations of that are, and suspect it varies by essence.

[Calderis]

I highly doubt you can isolate a specific gas. It's pressure manipulation. 

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I highly doubt you can isolate a specific gas. It's pressure manipulation. 

Agreed.  It would be cool, but if it's possible (and that's a big ol' IF) it would be a Reverse lashing/Gravitation effect rather than Adhesion/pressure manipulation. 

On the gas liquefaction, a phase change makes it significantly more effective in refrigeration, but a phase change is not theoretically required for the cooling effect.  Check out that link on the DIY liquid nitrogen system, it's using simple air in the 3000 PSI range and a regenerative cooling tower.  But I completely agree that you just arent going to be able to get it to work in open air around a target, at least before the threshold of "Anything it possible with absurd/Shardic levels of Investiture". 

On the other hand, if you could make an inverted Heat Fabrial that absorbs thermal energy rather than expelling it there might be some possibilities.  But I have no idea what principle (or Surge) that fabrial is working on.  Any thoughts on that?

[Bigmikey357]

Even if it were possible for Kaladin to use selective gravitation on a molecular level that would presuppose a knowledge of science that nobody on Roshar possess at moment. Even Jasnah is fuzzy on molecular chemistry and she can actually see molecules in Shadesmar. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I don't think you can create or destroy mass via soulcasating so no she could not soulcast the air back into its original state as their is more air in a given area.  You cannot soulcast air into less air by my understanding of the surge.

Again we do not know how teleportation works, if it works by opening a perpendicularity then Jasnah may take Kaladin with her or be unable to teleport if he keeps a strong hold.  Also I think it is easier for Kaladin to move a given mass then it is for Jasnah to create it in terms of stormlight consumption so doing so would drain more of her stormlight then his leaving her at a disadvantages after she completes this maneuver.

Although Quantus does make a good point later regarding soulcasting and the conservation of mass, my reference to the jam is what backs up what I am trying to say. Also as I type this, so too the paper having words soulcasted onto it. The jam was poisoned. As in the poison was mixed into a viscous fluid. Physically you could not separate the poison from the jam unless you used centrifuges or chemicals, yet Jasnah was able to soulcast the jam with the intention of keeping the jam as it was, but removing the poison. She only failed in her attempt because by her own admittance, she sucks at organics. Also consider that Jasnah was able to soulcast words onto a piece of paper. That is a fine level of etching that is incredible. She is literally soulcasting the tiniest of the sliver of paper to smoke, so that words are seen on it. So for me, it is entirely plausible for her to in an area of highly concentrated oxygen, to soulcast it to smoke, or water, or even soulcasting some of the oxygen atoms to another element resulting in an harmless gas. That is my point, her proficiency in soulcasting is incredible. 

True, how she teleports is a agree to disagree point. I think she could teleport out of his grasp easily, you disagree. 

As to stormlight consumption, if I understand you correctly Kaladin is using gravitation to make himself heavy enough to pin Jasnah to the ground. Given the strength of shardplate and also given due to shardplate it would be difficult to take advantage of choke holes, and joint locks, then I would assume the amount of weight Kaladin would have to increase via gravity to keep her pinned would use far more stormlight than she would just soulcasting the area around her allowing her to slip from his grasp. Also still do not see him being able to close the distance and grab onto her before she got away or used soulcasting in some way to harm him. But that is my reading of the situation. 

59 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Not quite, but yes in nearly any scenario I can think of Jasnah would be able to counter and destroy a windrunner trying this. If Lashing are a thing that can be applied to selective gasses (ie just oxygen and excluding the Nitrogen part of air), then all he'd have to do is maintain one long enough to spike the O2 concentration around her and then ignite it with a small flame piston pressure effect; that's the only route that I'd see being fast enough to be useful in a fight, and she'd still be able to do the exact same thing faster by Soulcasting the nitrogen into Oxygen, then a touch of Fire Essence.  The cycling only comes into play if he's trying to make a liquid oxygen grenade, and that would be more about cycling the air pressures to supercool a metal container until liquid oxygen started condensing out of the air, then you add charcoal as fuel and throw it, the impact would be enough to ignite it without a spark.  If he could also lash that object to pull only o2 it would work faster, but isnt necessary since oxygen condenses before the nitrogen.  If you somehow managed to do that actively around a person rather than in a container, you'd already have frozen them solid before any ignition became necessary. 

Wikipedia on Liquid Oxygen Explosives

Homemade liquid Nitrogen Generator (same general principle as Liquid Oxygen)

 

Per WOB soulcasting does violate conservation of mass in some instances.  The most obvious ones we've seen are when they soulcast lighter materials into Stone or Metal, particularly when they soulcast lighteyed corpses and get a statue of the same dimensions rather than much smaller but the same weight.  That being said I have no idea what the specifics or limitations of that are, and suspect it varies by essence.

Hmmmm, hey here is a thought. If the WoB I mentioned that to me implies jasnah could teleport someone else to another location, without herself traveling, then what is to stop Jasnah from transporting all the condensed oxygen around her to Kaladin, and then igniting it herself with a soulcast spark? Then the whole process would backfire on him, literally lol. 

54 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I highly doubt you can isolate a specific gas. It's pressure manipulation. 

I agree.

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Agreed.  It would be cool, but if it's possible (and that's a big ol' IF) it would be a Reverse lashing/Gravitation effect rather than Adhesion/pressure manipulation. 

On the gas liquefaction, a phase change makes it significantly more effective in refrigeration, but a phase change is not theoretically required for the cooling effect.  Check out that link on the DIY liquid nitrogen system, it's using simple air in the 3000 PSI range and a regenerative cooling tower.  But I completely agree that you just arent going to be able to get it to work in open air around a target, at least before the threshold of "Anything it possible with absurd/Shardic levels of Investiture". 

On the other hand, if you could make an inverted Heat Fabrial that absorbs thermal energy rather than expelling it there might be some possibilities.  But I have no idea what principle (or Surge) that fabrial is working on.  Any thoughts on that?

Maybe the heat fabrial used fire spren, so it could have something to do with dustbringers? Even though I still have no idea how their use of division and abrasion works lol. 

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Even if it were possible for Kaladin to use selective gravitation on a molecular level that would presuppose a knowledge of science that nobody on Roshar possess at moment. Even Jasnah is fuzzy on molecular chemistry and she can actually see molecules in Shadesmar. 

I agree. 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As to stormlight consumption, if I understand you correctly Kaladin is using gravitation to make himself heavy enough to pin Jasnah to the ground. Given the strength of shardplate and also given due to shardplate it would be difficult to take advantage of choke holes, and joint locks, then I would assume the amount of weight Kaladin would have to increase via gravity to keep her pinned would use far more stormlight than she would just soulcasting the area around her allowing her to slip from his grasp. Also still do not see him being able to close the distance and grab onto her before she got away or used soulcasting in some way to harm him. But that is my reading of the situation. 

My point is that Kaladin himself is impossible to pin because he can move any weight she can conceivably soulcast and reverse the direction gravity pulls on him.

[Quantus]

13 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Even if it were possible for Kaladin to use selective gravitation on a molecular level that would presuppose a knowledge of science that nobody on Roshar possess at moment. Even Jasnah is fuzzy on molecular chemistry and she can actually see molecules in Shadesmar. 

Absolutely.  This is on the same general order as Fabrial radios, Soulcasting Nukes, or Lightweaver Lasers; it may or may not even be possibly, but would require a major leap in Rosharan scientific understanding. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmmm, hey here is a thought. If the WoB I mentioned that to me implies jasnah could teleport someone else to another location, without herself traveling, then what is to stop Jasnah from transporting all the condensed oxygen around her to Kaladin, and then igniting it herself with a soulcast spark? Then the whole process would backfire on him, literally lol.

I doubt it, because I think (with nothing close to proof) that unlike Gravitation, Teleportation used that way is going to work on a similar principle as Soulcasting in that it's easier to affect a single 'thing', either some physical area like the oathgates or something with a unified Identity like traditional soulcasting, and to affect just the oxygen and exclude the rest of the air would require the caster to view all the different atoms as distinct things. It would be far easier to to take a mass of Air and Soulcast it into an equal mass of pure Oxygen (or hell, swamp-gas methane) and ignite that.