Jasnah V Kaladin

[Calderis he/him]

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

From the context I inferred that he meant that radiant's could more accurately produce more complex substances not that they were unable to produce any substance with any gemstone.

And the question then becomes why not? 

A soulcaster Fabrial uses a particular gemstone for a particular effect. But a lightweaver or Elsecaller acts as the gemstone. Holding the stormlight itself. Why would the gem color have any bearing whatsoever? The stormlight itself is unchanged. 

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The stormlight itself is unchanged. 

We do not actually know that.

[Calderis he/him]

No, we don't. But it looks the same it, it acts the same, and literally no one we've seen infuse with stormlight has made a single comment anywhere in the text that it feels different or anything. 

If it is somehow changed, it's been exceptionally poorly shown.

Edit: as I said, I've had this argument before and it's not conclusive. I really don't want to get into it. Just pointing out that this is another line of reasoning in the thread that comes down to opinion and as such becomes a sticking point rather than a point to further the discussion. 

And I think that example is already amply made. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

Ok, got a whole lot to catch up on. Here we go

 

18 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not referencing struggle I am referencing the fact that it took more then one command.  Try saying you will change two times it takes a while.  Yes a master artist can render almost anything given enough time but they still practice specific techniques and find some easier then others.  It also takes them longer and more effort to render somthingthey have not done before.  Jasnah points out the basics of soulcasting the different essences to Shallan as they move she does not get into any of the nuanced detail that I would imagine a master soulcaster uses.  She also explains that it is a practiced art meaning it takes time to get good at different aspects of it.  I know of no practiced arts where someone can say that they have mastered every aspect of it.  It stands to reason therefore that Jasnah practiced specific aspects she thought would be useful along with the basics and that she would have varying skill levels with different essences and would have a hard time working some of them under pressure. 

Jasnah had just been stabbed through the chest and healed from it, while being pulled into another realm and is exhausted. For me that scene was to illustrate the difference between Shallan soulcasting and Jasnah soulcasting. Any resistance Jasnah commands. I would still ask you to explain the speed of soulcasting I keep referencing. What is happening there. Please show me the delay there. Then show me a scene with Kaladin that clearly shows his surgebinding is faster. That is what I am requesting. Actual examples that can be compared. What is shown in the speed of Jasnah's soulcasting in the book that indicates it is slower than Kaladin's. 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 

Just to be clear, I was being fair to both parties in regards to what we've observed them doing so far. If you feel that I've loaded Kaladin down with all sorts of advantages while not taking into account Jasnah's awesomeness, I would ask that you review my posts on the subject again and not confuse me with other posters. If afterwards you still feel that way then its about agreement to disagree. Note however that even if your interpretation of my words still leads you to think I've been unfair to Jasnah I still believe she wins more than she loses given what we know of her capabilities and giving each party a level boost and an equal amount of Stormlight.

My frustration lies in the idea that you think my opinions run in the opposite direction than they do. I don't think Kaladin would be the hands down winner in a contest between the two. Run the battle in a simulator 100 times and Kaladin maybe wins 30. The numbers for a Windrunner not named Kaladin Stormblessed are considerably worse facing Jasnah. Teft maybe wins 10 of those matches, I'd be surprised if Lopen won 5. By extension, Kaladin's numbers improve if he's fighting an Elsecaller not named Jasnah Kholin, closer to 50/50 but still losing more times than he wins. Probably a 60/40 split in favor of the Elsecaller due to the power set advantage the caster employs.

As for the dome thing, I'll give that one more shot. Jasnah casts a dome. She can spy on Kaladin through the CR and thus has time to craft numerous strategies, sift through likely scenarios and act upon them. That's great and all but what stops Kaladin from just walking away? She's neutralized in her little dome, she cannot attack him unless he closes the distance. Depending on the mission, her holing up could count as a win for Kal. If Jasnah's mission is to kill Kaladin she's going to leave her place of safety in order to do him harm, has to draw him into her effective range. The dome is no good for that. 

Or he could sell out, use a goodly portion of his reserves to send a large attack from outside her range. Yes Jasnah can react to anything he can do from outside her range with a high degree of success. That's not the point. The point is that moves like the dome are defensive. She must react, she has given up the initiative, she's letting Kaladin dictate the engagement. I'm not sure Jasnah would want to take an action like that against an opponent with as much battle experience as Kal. Of course the calculations are different depending on her range. If her max range is 10 feet or so she ain't putting up a dome. If it's out to the size of a football field the strategy is a bit more palatable because she can cast an entire obstacle course and force him to burn through a prohibitive amount of fuel. If she can do so to the horizon then nobody beats her except another Elsecaller. 

Anyway, Kal isn't winning at all unless he can make Jasnah run dry by keeping her on the defensive. Jasnah will know this and her strategy will therefore be to get him to close the range while she still has enough of her stockpile to cast. If she can somehow conceal her range then that's another plus. Why does everyone assume that Kaladin will be stupid enough to voluntarily close with Jasnah being full of Stormlight? Most of the strategic gambits I've seen proposed for Jasnah to win require Kaladin to be stupid, inexperienced in battle or both. Do we assume that Jasnah knows the full capacity of a full Windrunner and Kaladin goes in unaware of his opponent? 

Hopefully I can explain what I mean better. For instance:

1.  you have maintained that Kaladin will outlast Jasnah with stormlight and that is one way he could prevail.

2. I provided multiple references in the book of Kaladin blazing through his stormlight without any regard of rationing to the point he has frequently ran out before realizing how low he was. I have also pointed to multiple references in the book where Jasnah has rationed her stormlight and outlasted the other surgebinders.

3. You replied that the experience with Rock, would have taught Kaladin to be more conservative with his stormlight. This portion is conjecture. 

4. I replied that based on the multiple instances of Kaladin wasting his stormlight, I have not seen any indication that he would change. This portion is conjecture

5. You base some of your later assertions on the idea that Kaladin would outlast Jasnah with stormlight. That is an idea we have not agreed upon

6. For me, if we are giving Kaladin the benefit of the doubt, allowing him to conserve his stormlight in a way that to me is not reflective in the book, then Jasnah should be able to have access to information she would not have in the book. 

7. For me this extends to other examples. Most are from Karger, but some are from you as well.

8. If we cannot agree on the level of stormlight use, then we cannot agree on how it is employed, so then we cannot come to a consensus on who would win in a battle

9. If I understand you correctly (please correct me if I am wrong), you are trying to say Kaladin would win some of the time, and this and that is why. That is not how I am approaching things so that might be where the disconnect is. I am approaching it as taking two individuals with certain skills and certain abilities, and am examining based on the information we have at hand, on who would win, how effectively, and why. For me it isn't about averages. If Jasnah can provide a counter to an ability to Kaladin, I see that as Jasnah winning the bout. If Jasnah can eliminate Kaladin before he can bring his powers to bear, I see that as Jasnah winning the bout. For me it is not about who "wins more". It is about how the powers function, how they interact with other powers, and how the possessors of said powers employ them to a resolution. Hopefully that clarified that portion

As I said above, when I say we disagree, I am not referring to "the winner". I am referring to how the powers function, how they interact with other powers, and how the possessors of said powers employ them to a resolution. We disagree on just about every one of those three. That is why I feel it has reached a point of repeating and talking past each other. You can say all day everyday that Kaladin will outlast Jasnah in stormlight use. And I will say all day everyday that that is not the case. You have your reasons to believe as you do and I have my reasons to believe as I do. So repeating them back and forth accomplishes nothing except beating a dead horse. I would rather end a convo amicably based on agreeing to disagree, than repeating each other to the point of frustration. 

If Kaladin retreated wouldn't he be forfeiting the match? Again the dome is meant to be a counter to an attack. If that was all she could do, then yes the match would be over, but she has a whole host of other possibilities that she could do in response. Which is again why I think Kaladin's power set is ill suited against Jasnah's. 

Again, where is he getting these boulders? We agreed he has to produce them. So it will take time and stormlight to smash the ground into the right sizes. It will then take a whole bunch of stormlight to lash a boulder enough to send it to her at speed. If you are talking a boulder size that I think you are, then even a shardplate throw wouldn't accelerate it enough to accomplish what you are positing. But again, we disagree on how much lashing takes from stormlight. I provided references of Szeth lashing boulders. I provided references of Kaladin lashing rocks and how that functioned. So for me I am secure in my interpretation. You are secure in yours. So I do not see how we can reach an accommodation. 

I believe the reason others say Kaladin will attempt to close on Jasnah is because melee combat is his strength. Also as I used in the example of the willshaper, Jasnah's options of soulcasting becomes more limited. She could theoretically get away from Kaladin using oil or teleporting away, but a willshaper would be able to keep on her to prevent that from being useful. As to knowing the full capacity of a windrunner, we have precedent to support that. Jasnah has extensively researched the radiants in preparation for the desolation. She talks to Shallan after meeting Kaladin for the first time and remarks how he does seem a standard example of what she would expect of his windrunner order. Also when she first meets Shallan, she is able to identify based on what two surges Shallan exhibits what order she belongs to, what is the name of the surges, and roughly how they function. Kaladin on the other hand has none of this knowledge. Though I would agree to make it fair he should know what Jasnah is capable of. 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Yes they do

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)
#12 Share Copy

 

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Why can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

Calderis already replied to this

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Don't start playing this game. 

The wob you quoted is older than the one @Pathfinder quoted that says that Radiants are less constrained. 

As is its unclear. I've heard arguments from both sides of this in a much more focused debate than this side tangent.

Personally I side with Pathfinder here though. Why the type of gemstone a Radiant uses would mater for Soulcasting, and only Soulcasting, once the stormlight is no longer in the gem but inside them is beyond me. 

I am going to try again to locate that smoking gun WoB. I swear it exists because the person was trying to say Jasnah would be more concerned about maintaining the ruse of needing a garnet to soulcast blood than saving Shallan's life. Wish me luck!

1 hour ago, Karger said:

From the context I inferred that he meant that radiant's could more accurately produce more complex substances not that they were unable to produce any substance with any gemstone.

Calderis says everything I would have said. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And the question then becomes why not? 

A soulcaster Fabrial uses a particular gemstone for a particular effect. But a lightweaver or Elsecaller acts as the gemstone. Holding the stormlight itself. Why would the gem color have any bearing whatsoever? The stormlight itself is unchanged. 

I agree. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jasnah doesn't even use gem stones at the Battle of Thaylen Feilds, she just absorbs the Stormlight as if she were in a highstorm. If she needed to get the Stormlight from a specific type of gem then she should not have been able to soulcast at all until she reached the walls where the Thunderclast had dumped the gem reserve.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jasnah doesn't even use gem stones at the Battle of Thaylen Feilds, she just absorbs the Stormlight as if she were in a highstorm. If she needed to get the Stormlight from a specific type of gem then she should not have been able to soulcast at all until she reached the walls where the Thunderclast had dumped the gem reserve.

In the interest of full disclosure and being fair to Karger and Bigmike, it would be reasonable to conclude that if Jasnah knew she had a limitation such as relying on specific gemstones to soulcast essences, that she would include a myriad of gemstones with her at all times. We know when she was "killed" she had gemstones sewn into her dress hidden and infused at all times. 

Now having said that, had Jasnah needed to use specific gemstones to soulcast, given the type of soulcasting she did and frequency in doing so, she should have shattered every single potential one she held prior in the process. That would then require her to run around looking for and grabbing specific gemstones on the field to continue to do so which we do not in fact see her do. 

So in the end I agree with you, but brought forward the above point in an effort for full disclosure. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In the interest of full disclosure and being fair to Karger and Bigmike, it would be reasonable to conclude that if Jasnah knew she had a limitation such as relying on specific gemstones to soulcast essences, that she would include a myriad of gemstones with her at all times. We know when she was "killed" she had gemstones sewn into her dress hidden and infused at all times. 

Now having said that, had Jasnah needed to use specific gemstones to soulcast, given the type of soulcasting she did and frequency in doing so, she should have shattered every single potential one she held prior in the process. That would then require her to run around looking for and grabbing specific gemstones on the field to continue to do so which we do not in fact see her do. 

So in the end I agree with you, but brought forward the above point in an effort for full disclosure. 

Even bearing that in mind, she never actually takes Stormlight from the gems. During her PoV part of the fighting she remarks internally that her Stormlight is constantly being "topped off". I don't have the book on me to quote it, but it's same part where she notes that the souls of the people she is killing hardly resist her at all and that she feels like a god (and is disturbed by it).

I really feel like if the gems were important, Brandon would make it obvious. Why hide something that was explained, as it pertains to fabrial soulcasters, in another part of the book. Anything else would be needlessly cruel to the fan base.

[Karger he/him]

14 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Even bearing that in mind, she never actually takes Stormlight from the gems. During her PoV part of the fighting she remarks internally that her Stormlight is constantly being "topped off". I don't have the book on me to quote it, but it's same part where she notes that the souls of the people she is killing hardly resist her at all and that she feels like a god (and is disturbed by it).

I have to reiterate that once the perpendicularity opens I am not sure that we can take anything Jasnah does as examples of her normal abilities. 

 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

9. If I understand you correctly (please correct me if I am wrong), you are trying to say Kaladin would win some of the time, and this and that is why. That is not how I am approaching things so that might be where the disconnect is. I am approaching it as taking two individuals with certain skills and certain abilities, and am examining based on the information we have at hand, on who would win, how effectively, and why. For me it isn't about averages. If Jasnah can provide a counter to an ability to Kaladin, I see that as Jasnah winning the bout

I think you are correct here about a disconnect.  To use your earlier example a highly skilled marksmen can still loose to a sword master if his gun jams or he runs out of bullets on none critical hits or their are other conditions like heavy fog that obscure vision at a distance.  Jasnah's is (contrary to Ivory's insistence) human and therefor fallible.  If she has a clear advantage that is just that an advantage but I do not think it fair to say that a given ability means she wins all the time.

[Pathfinder]

57 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have to reiterate that once the perpendicularity opens I am not sure that we can take anything Jasnah does as examples of her normal abilities. 

 

I think you are correct here about a disconnect.  To use your earlier example a highly skilled marksmen can still loose to a sword master if his gun jams or he runs out of bullets on none critical hits or their are other conditions like heavy fog that obscure vision at a distance.  Jasnah's is (contrary to Ivory's insistence) human and therefor fallible.  If she has a clear advantage that is just that an advantage but I do not think it fair to say that a given ability means she wins all the time.

And to reiterate jasnah does exactly as swordnimi describes three times before the realms were put together. Soulcasted three guys, soulcasted a wall, and soulcasted steps. All before renarin felt the super charge. No indication of reaching for specific gemstones

And the highly skilled sword martial artist can roll a 1 and trip and fall impaling himself on his own sword. The assumption for me is of we are using the best of a given field, then such occurrences aren't on the table. A marksmen would maintain his guns religiously. A marksman would have the speed and accuracy to hit multiple times before the sword martial artist got anywhere near. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and crushed the sword martial artist. Does that mean the marksmen won based on his capabilities? To me that is a clear no. So I do not see the point in taking such things into consideration.  Just as much as jasnah can make a mistake, so can kaladin so that doesn't give us any indicator why one would triumph over the other

 

edit: Just for completeness here is a rough run down of what Jasnah soulcasts from one to another

before the realms coming together

-three people (flesh) into crystal (lucentia)

-wall (talus) into smoke (vapor)

-air (zephyr) into steps (talus)

after the realms came together

-air (zephyr) to oil (tallow)

-air (zephyr) to fire (spark)

-rock (talus) to air (zephyr)

-thin layer of rock (talus) to oil (tallow)

-air (zephyr) to rock tomb (talus)

-air (zephyr) to bronze (foil)

(there may be more)

So in summation Jasnah soulcasted zephyr, flesh, lucentia, vapor, talus, tallow, spark, and foil. Eight of the 10. She only left out pulp and blood. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A marksman would have the speed and accuracy to hit multiple times before the sword martial artist got anywhere near. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and crushed the sword martial artist. Does that mean the marksmen won based on his capabilities? To me that is a clear no. So I do not see the point in taking such things into consideration.  Just as much as jasnah can make a mistake, so can kaladin so that doesn't give us any indicator why one would triumph over the other

I agree that either could loose by mistake but to keep this metaphor going a marksmen and a swordsmaster standing a few feet from one onother at the begining of a battle have about an equal chance of wining. 

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And to reiterate jasnah does exactly as swordnimi describes three times before the realms were put together. Soulcasted three guys, soulcasted a wall, and soulcasted steps. All before renarin felt the super charge. No indication of reaching for specific gemstones

She was prepping to fight Reniarian who she thought was a traitor and she had stormlight on her contained in normal gemstones.  It is not unreasonably to expect these to be of different verities based on what she wanted to soulcast.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I agree that either could loose by mistake but to keep this metaphor going a marksmen and a swordsmaster standing a few feet from one onother at the begining of a battle have about an equal chance of wining. 

She was prepping to fight Reniarian who she thought was a traitor and she had stormlight on her contained in normal gemstones.  It is not unreasonably to expect these to be of different verities based on what she wanted to soulcast.

Yeah I am sorry but I am not now going down this path too with you.  marksman would shoot the swordsman dead long before the swordman could reach him. Period. There is a whole host of reasons (swordsman would need warning to deflect a bullet which if lucky would only work once, then the sword would be broken, and the deflected bullet would still based on tragectory hit the swordman. The speed of the marksman would unload a full clip by then, and so many others. Again things we have references for in real life to draw upon)

 

She was going to execute Renarin from behind in a quick painless strike from her shardblade. We have her PoV leading up to it. She was planning to rally Dalinar and his remaining troops to retreat from the route. Renarin was a very painful and traumatic moment that she had to push herself through before accomplishing the rest. She held back, and then Renarin and her ran the length of the city to the wall. That is when Renarin saw her do all I have mentioned. Then he felt the charge. I editted while you posted a list of all the essences she soulcasted during the battle. 8 out of 10. She would have had been switching them out constantly as she shattered them if the gemstones were required. 

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The speed of the marksman would unload a full clip by then, and so many others. Again things we have references for in real life to draw upon)

I was thinking that if the swordmen drew fast enough he could just stab the marksmen before he got off a shot.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She was going to execute Renarin from behind in a quick painless strike from her shardblade. We have her PoV leading up to it.

Sure but she was also Jasnah which means she was prepping for the worst and would have everything she needed to engage in a high level combat with a powerful opponent.  I also believe that she only uses a few essences before the perpendicularity opens.  Could you post that scenes were she uses them before the perpendicularity opens?  My copy of Oathbringer is missing.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was thinking that if the swordmen drew fast enough he could just stab the marksmen before he got off a shot.

Sure but she was also Jasnah which means she was prepping for the worst and would have everything she needed to engage in a high level combat with a powerful opponent.  I also believe that she only uses a few essences before the perpendicularity opens.  Could you post that scenes were she uses them before the perpendicularity opens?  My copy of Oathbringer is missing.

How close are you assuming they start lol? I said equidistant. I assumed it would be understood for being 15 to 20 or more feet apart. Much like with Kaladin and Jasnah.

Please refer to page 6 of this thread. I wrote a very detailed post with page citations regarding that scene.

[Karger he/him]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Please refer to page 6 of this thread. I wrote a very detailed post with page citations regarding that scene.

Thank you she only turns things into crystal stone and smoke before the perpendicularity opens.  So she only uses three essences.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Karger

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I put the averages in for a simple reason, because battles aren't solely about skills, that there are unpredictable elements even in a contest with a clear favorite. Like in sports, the best team doesn't always win the championship. I'm also looking at their skill sets and predicting some growth for both characters based on our knowledge of the character, not just their powers. Therefore Jasnah's pragmatism and coolness under fire factor in as much as Kaladin's will to improve, fighting experience and improvisation. They both have room to grow; neither one is a 5 Ideal Radiant. I thus think it's fair to do some projecting. That's why I did not object to Jasnah's use of Aluminum as a possible game-changer. It's no fun pitting them against each other as they stand right now because she likely has Plate and has a higher degree of control of her Surges because she's further along in her progression than he is. At this point in the narrative Kaladin has about a 1% chance.

I thought we already established that Rocks on Roshar should not be difficult to procure, nor take Stormlight to acquire if he has both Plate and Blade. Punch the ground, pick up rock, throw, repeat. It takes more time to procure a big boulder but fist-sized rocks are infinite in supply and there should be no danger in procurement if Kal is outside her range. 

Speaking of range, I have a theory about Jasnah's. I believe her Stormlight is more effective and faster the closer she casts from herself. Looking at the scene where she executes those criminals in the alley we learn 2 things. One, that she can cast things she isn't touching. Two, that distance casting isn't instantaneous. She takes a breath, seems to gather her focus, then a spark shoots out from either hand, makes contact with the running men, and they visibly change instead of flash and it's done like the 2 she touches. I have never maintained that distance casting is as simple as direct contact, though as a full Radiant it may be faster for her to do so.

You're probably right that it's best to maybe put a pin in this. I'll respond if you choose because I'm enjoying the mental exercise, but I respect the fact that you look at this battle differently than I do.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I have to reiterate that once the perpendicularity opens I am not sure that we can take anything Jasnah does as examples of her normal abilities.

On most things with the perpendicularity, I absolutely agree... 

But if gemstone colors are a requirement of soulcasting, they would be a requirement. Stormlight that had never touched a gem would be un-assigned to the proper essence. 

In this case, I strongly disagree. 

[Karger he/him]

Perhaps soulcasting is so difficult that the amount of stormlight it takes to do a major transformation is to much for a single person to hold.  When doing something minor Jasnah can use the unassigned stormlight contained in her body but for something major she cannot hold the stormlight and draws it directly out of the gemstone which is required to be of the correct type.  Just a theory but it does make sense.  Care to poke holes in it?

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Thank you she only turns things into crystal stone and smoke before the perpendicularity opens.  So she only uses three essences.

Yep, I whole heartily agree. Calderis then put forward what I think is a very good point. The realms being close together may make surgebinding easier, but requirements should still be in place. 

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I put the averages in for a simple reason, because battles aren't solely about skills, that there are unpredictable elements even in a contest with a clear favorite. Like in sports, the best team doesn't always win the championship. I'm also looking at their skill sets and predicting some growth for both characters based on our knowledge of the character, not just their powers. Therefore Jasnah's pragmatism and coolness under fire factor in as much as Kaladin's will to improve, fighting experience and improvisation. They both have room to grow; neither one is a 5 Ideal Radiant. I thus think it's fair to do some projecting. That's why I did not object to Jasnah's use of Aluminum as a possible game-changer. It's no fun pitting them against each other as they stand right now because she likely has Plate and has a higher degree of control of her Surges because she's further along in her progression than he is. At this point in the narrative Kaladin has about a 1% chance.

I thought we already established that Rocks on Roshar should not be difficult to procure, nor take Stormlight to acquire if he has both Plate and Blade. Punch the ground, pick up rock, throw, repeat. It takes more time to procure a big boulder but fist-sized rocks are infinite in supply and there should be no danger in procurement if Kal is outside her range. 

Speaking of range, I have a theory about Jasnah's. I believe her Stormlight is more effective and faster the closer she casts from herself. Looking at the scene where she executes those criminals in the alley we learn 2 things. One, that she can cast things she isn't touching. Two, that distance casting isn't instantaneous. She takes a breath, seems to gather her focus, then a spark shoots out from either hand, makes contact with the running men, and they visibly change instead of flash and it's done like the 2 she touches. I have never maintained that distance casting is as simple as direct contact, though as a full Radiant it may be faster for her to do so.

You're probably right that it's best to maybe put a pin in this. I'll respond if you choose because I'm enjoying the mental exercise, but I respect the fact that you look at this battle differently than I do.

My problem with unpredictable elements, is because they are unpredictable. As I said to karger. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and killed Kaladin before he can lash it away, or before he can heal from it. Jasnah wins? it doesn't have to do anything with the powers, their abilities, and how they employ it. So how can we measure it?

We established that Kaladin has to spend time and resources to produce them. While Kaladin is smashing rocks and spending stormlight to shoot them off, is time Jasnah can be doing other things, and employing her stormlight towards other ends. She is not going to just stand there patiently while he produces his arsenal. 

As I have mentioned multiple times across this thread, Jasnah soulcasts steps at distance while running up them before the realms are put together. There is that mysterious time she was "dead" where she could have learned alllllll sorts of things, like kaladin learned from Rock saving his life that you posit. Just we see the potential result with Jasnah while Kaladin remains to be seen till the next book. 

No problemo. Like I said I just don't want this to devolve. If we have already said all we have to say, then saying it again accomplishes nothing. 

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps soulcasting is so difficult that the amount of stormlight it takes to do a major transformation is to much for a single person to hold.  When doing something minor Jasnah can use the unassigned stormlight contained in her body but for something major she cannot hold the stormlight and draws it directly out of the gemstone which is required to be of the correct type.  Just a theory but it does make sense.  Care to poke holes in it?

Please quantify what you consider "minor" vs "major"? Complexity? Size? The humans she soulcasts to crystal are pretty complex. The wall she soulcasts to smoke is pretty big. According to your theory, where do these rate? So I have something to go on to respond. 

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Please quantify what you consider "minor" vs "major"?

Could be either or some combination thereof.

[Greywatch she/her]

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

How close are you assuming they start lol? I said equidistant. I assumed it would be understood for being 15 to 20 or more feet apart.

Just a small note of pedantry, equidistant does not have a specific length implied. Equidistant means there there is a third party or a third point, and the two subjects are equally distant from it. If you were picturing a particular distance, you just need to say that particular distance, like twenty feet, say. Saying that two people are equidistant is not correct.

[Pathfinder]

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

Could be either or some combination thereof.

Kind of hard to poke holes without defined perimeters lol.(keeping in mind you are requesting that I poke holes in it) 

25 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Just a small note of pedantry, equidistant does not have a specific length implied. Equidistant means there there is a third party or a third point, and the two subjects are equally distant from it. If you were picturing a particular distance, you just need to say that particular distance, like twenty feet, say. Saying that two people are equidistant is not correct.

Lol touche. To join the convo, how far would you consider fair for both parties to stand apart? My point is there is a reason for the saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight". 

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Lol touche. To join the convo, how far would you consider fair for both parties to stand apart? My point is there is a reason for the saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight". 

As in everything in this conversation, it depends. Are both parties aware they're about to start fighting? Are they both prepared for a duel? Are we assuming that Kaladin is not capable of creating a projectile weapon with Syl? An unprepared gunman against a swordsman sprinting towards them is different from both of them standing at the ready raring to go at the sound of the gunshot. I just think there are way too many possible variables for me to say who would win flat out, so it's not fun for me to bother with the specific cases - a specific case is just a particular set of variables, which could be totally different in the next specific case.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

As in everything in this conversation, it depends. Are both parties aware they're about to start fighting? Are they both prepared for a duel? Are we assuming that Kaladin is not capable of creating a projectile weapon with Syl? An unprepared gunman against a swordsman sprinting towards them is different from both of them standing at the ready raring to go at the sound of the gunshot. I just think there are way too many possible variables for me to say who would win flat out, so it's not fun for me to bother with the specific cases - a specific case is just a particular set of variables, which could be totally different in the next specific case.

it was stated that the swordman is a martial artist focused in the blade, and that the pistol wielder was a marksmen. So both are extensively trained in their field. Which was used to illustrate the situation with Kaladin and Jasnah. I assumed a clear field, both parties dueling to the death, facing off, a la mortal kombat. Count down, fight. So I was thinking a standard distance of about 15 to 20 feet. We could do closer to like a boxing ring though I think the outcome would still be the same. 

For me in fights in order to come to conclusions, one must do their best to make all things equal. That is why I feel Kaladin's power set is ill suited to combat Jasnah's. Just like a sword would be ill suited to combat a gun. 

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For me in fights in order to come to conclusions, one must do their best to make all things equal. That is why I feel Kaladin's power set is ill suited to combat Jasnah's. Just like a sword would be ill suited to combat a gun. 

This is entirely reasonable but others may disagree.  For example early guns were often ditched in favor of swords as swords were more accurate and did not require difficult reloading. 

 

As to terrain assuming that it is an ambush what exactly is either party going to do? Their is no skill involved in cutting off the head of a sleeping opponent although I doubt Kaladin could do it.    If the two of them are leading armies against each other and they meet on the battlefield I am going to swing the fight Kaladin's way as he is better at small scale field tactics al la taking a brightlord off his throne.  Kaladin would get somone behind Jasnah and she would die with a knife in her back same as anyone else.  If the two of them face each other alone on an open field then Kaladin would have to be extraordinarily careful due to the large variety of attacks Jasnah can use against him.  He would have to get clever in order to win.  If they fight in Shadesmar my money is on Jasnah no question.  Kaladin does not know how to use the sea of beads.  Dito if they are fighting in the ruins of an old city.  Jasnah could see Kaladin but the inverse is not necessarily true.