Republic of Alleycity

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

45 minutes ago, kenod said:

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Btw, if you want the Jackal to escape, don't you control the people who have him in custody after his testimony? Just have him give his testimony and afterwards have the Precursors escort him to prison in the Hunt thread, and have his compatriots help him escape during transport.

 

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Small problem: They would take his mask off, which is what I want to avoid. I just want my character out of this.

Two problems: 1. His argument is foolproof. He didn't break the law, because there are no laws.

2. Kenod, you cannot just say you shot him.

 

[kenod]

Just now, Darth Woodrack said:

 

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I didn't shoot him. I shot at him, over his shoulder, as a warning shot.

As for not taking his mask off, can't he just request that from them? I don't think he ever did, except when he was captured, and I believe that in that particular case he was allowed to keep it on.

As for the not breaking any laws thing, by that logic we could just have 10 characters gang up on him and lynch him as revenge, since we wouldn't be breaking any laws doing that.

 

[Voidus]

19 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Small problem: They would take his mask off, which is what I want to avoid. I just want my character out of this.

Two problems: 1. His argument is foolproof. He didn't break the law, because there are no laws.

2. Kenod, you cannot just say you shot him.

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I'd suggest not jumping into a conflict if you don't want your character to be involved in that conflict. If another group just burst into the hunt for the Jackal thread, murdered everyone in his organization then left without being caught or attacked, would you consider that a satisfying resolution?

1. As mentioned, the fact that it hasn't yet been made explicitly illegal doesn't mean that everyone has to just let him walk away. In addition, it was most certainly against the law where he actually performed the act, he was on a guilds territory.

EDIT:
Also, and I don't follow it beyond my usual checks so I may be mistaken, but isn't the whole point of the Hunt for the Jackal thread that the precursors are hunting the Jackal? They literally have an anti-Jackal taskforce. What's their goal when they find him if they're so bound by the law that they can't respond in any way?

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

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I thought Ark had an ACTUAL EXTRACTION PLAN AND WASN'T JUST EXPECTING US TO GET ON OUR OWN!

They were expecting the senate to come up with laws before they find them.

Also, this:

Doomhorn stood up, was immediately pushed down by his priests, and said, "He does have a point. Before we punish anyone, we should make attacking a guild stronghold, murder, kidnapping, and all things that this group di illegal. Before we do that, we cannot do anything to them,"

[Voidus]

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Again, something not currently being illegal doesn't mean everyone has to passively stand by. Things that are obviously going to be illegal but haven't been formally declared so yet can still be acted upon. They can also just hold prisoners at their own discretion, regardless of whether or not laws have been established yet.
And if anything, the fact that laws haven't yet been established actually means they can do literally anything to him, because it's not against the law.

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

39 minutes ago, Voidus said:

Again, something not currently being illegal doesn't mean everyone has to passively stand by. Things that are obviously going to be illegal but haven't been formally declared so yet can still be acted upon. They can also just hold prisoners at their own discretion, regardless of whether or not laws have been established yet.

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A governing body cannot charge people under laws that do not exist. That is an authoritarian regime, which the Alleyverse is not.

 

[Kidpen he/him]

2 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

 

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So how about instead of charging him they just do it because they want to and it's not illegal?

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

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Well, in that case, I would call upon the all powerful moderators to discuss godmodding, and convince the DA to stop using DA handwavium* to explain how they are doing things.

*DA handwavium refers to a member of the DA having unatrul cpabilties, purely because they are a member of DA, and using the innumerable resources of the DA in any grand way, other than providing funding to a perfectly fine organization, and nothing in excess of logic.

 

[MacThorstenson he/him]

13 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

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*DA handwavium refers to a member of the DA having unatrul cpabilties, purely because they are a member of DA, and using the innumerable resources of the DA in any grand way, other than providing funding to a perfectly fine organization, and nothing in excess of logic.

 

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I would ask where this was exhibited in the recent conflict. Nothing there seemed out of the ordinary from what another great guild could have done.

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

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*shrugs* I don't know. I was jsut defining it because Fatebringer seemed confused on it's definition. I am very tired at this point, and annoyed because, EVEN THOUGH HE GOT ME INTO THIS MESS ARK IS DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO GET ME OUT OF IT. Yes, those capitals were directed at Ark. Ark? Assistances please?

@Ark1002

[Voidus]

23 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

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A governing body cannot charge people under laws that do not exist. That is an authoritarian regime, which the Alleyverse is not.

 

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I said imprison, not charge. And we don't really know what kind of regime the Alleyverse government is, mostly just an inefficient one at the moment.

 

19 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Well, in that case, I would call upon the all powerful moderators to discuss godmodding, and convince the DA to stop using DA handwavium* to explain how they are doing things.

*DA handwavium refers to a member of the DA having unatrul cpabilties, purely because they are a member of DA, and using the innumerable resources of the DA in any grand way, other than providing funding to a perfectly fine organization, and nothing in excess of logic.

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FB changed their post to remove the godmodding, but I can talk to them to make sure there's clarity over what we'd consider godmodding if you'd like.

I don't think the resources used here were in excess of what's reasonable, the church just demonstrated an entire wall with anti-Investiture capabilities. That being said Fatebreaker has actually already asked if retconning back to the Jackal's initial flight would be possible. I told them it would likely just cause more issues but if you want to retcon the whole cage then we can do that. You would still have a group of DA denizens to deal with, including the PCs that have already appeared.

 

[MacThorstenson he/him]

44 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

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A governing body cannot charge people under laws that do not exist. That is an authoritarian regime, which the Alleyverse is not.

 

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I would also add that it's not the Alleyverse government holding him, it's the precursors or the DA depending on when you are looking at it. Neither of those have to obey any laws about holding people, because there are none, internally or externally.

Besides even that, the Jackal did commit a crime in the eyes of the church of the whiterose. The DA is helping bring him to justice in their eyes. The reason they are at the alleyverse republic is to inform the government about the attack and the Ghostblood involvement, not to be brought to justice.

 

[Vargo Seldon he/him]

Keleth pulled another scroll from his robes.  "I propose we decide on a set of laws," he said in his most imperial voice, "A code so we can actually run as a governing body.  Here is the list of laws, I don't have a penal code yet, but it will be ironed out eventually."  He began reading a list of laws. 

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Starts with traditional crimes:

• Thievery of any sort is against the law, ownership being defined in a writen form (receipts, contracts, etc.), or if the owner produced the property.
• Murder or assault of any sort is against the law, assault being determined by causing enough damage to cause pain.
• Vandalism is also against the law.  Vandalism being determined by causing enough damage to property to limit the property's usefulness.

Monetary laws:

• Every citizen of Alleycity will be taxed 5% of all income.
• All transactions will have a 2% tax. 

With regard to Investiture:

• No being shall take undue advantage of those with less investiture (such as coercion, violence etc.).

With regard to Hemalurgy:

• Spike-outs shall only happen to the terminally sick and the elderly.  
• Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government.
• Form:

Spoiler

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic expirements, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life.  I am certified not insane.

 (Sign name here) 

 (Print name here) 

• Spike-ins must be accompanied by a copper spike to keep mental stability.
• Spike-ins may happen to anyone, as long as they are in accordance with hemalurgy laws.
• Spike-ins may not result in death.

Foreign Policy:

• All foreigners to Alleycity are to be subjected to the same laws as citizens (Citizenship to be defined as anyone born in Alleycity, or those applying for citizenship through the proper channels).
• In disputes between foreigners and Alleycitizens, Alleycitizens will be favored by the law.
• Any foreigners are allowed in, as long as they are in accordance with the law.
• Foreign powers will be dealt with by the discretion of the government. 

Keleth read the laws out, and most of the reps, he noticed, fell asleep during the reading.  "These laws are just the beginning, an incomplete beginning.  These "Vargo's Laws" are completely up for debate."

Edited March 29, 2019 by Vargo Seldon

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Doomhorn said, "We could always adopt the effective, and already created, Citadel code of laws, which with the removal of hemalurgc limitations, would work. I agree with the taxes, btu nothing in the hemalurg section works,"

[+Sorana she/her]

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Those laws... wow...they're slightly biased... but I do like the taxes. 5% of your income, that would be heaven

 

[kenod]

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Agreed on both of Sorana's points. Those taxes are great, and the law is somewhat biased. I mean, how are you defining citizens being favored in dispute? Does the law automatically make them right if they have a dispute, without trying to ascertain guilt? What counts as a dispute? I also have a feeling that it would kind of violate the whole being impartial part of the law.

 

[Vargo Seldon he/him]

5 hours ago, Sorana said:

 

 

5 hours ago, kenod said:

 

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True, the city itself is a little bit favored, but seeing as it's laws governing the city, I decided to do that.  We can pound out what "Favored" means, or drop it alltogether.  

 

6 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Doomhorn said, "We could always adopt the effective, and already created, Citadel code of laws, which with the removal of hemalurgc limitations, would work. I agree with the taxes, btu nothing in the hemalurg section works,"

Keleth countered Doomhorn's point, "Hemalurgic limitations are the only thing keeping the city from dissolving into chaos.  I thought they were reasonable, considering they prevent any unnecessary deaths.  They also let the DA practice hemalurgy with almost no handicaps, just a little legal form and some mental stability spikes.  Yes it would be a pain finding spike-out subjects, but any terminally ill would do.  Donating your soul to the greater good is more heroic than lying sick in bed until you die in a pool of your own urine in the eyes of most Alleycitizens."

@Darth Woodrack

[Fatebreaker he/him]

A DA lawyer spoke up, 

"I believe the correct phrase is 'Hemalurgy is the only thing keeping the city from dissolving into chaos' , which is true. We apprehended the Jackal after all. We've shown nothing but good will of late, why does the villanization of our benevolent organization continue so? Furthermore, the vote to make Hemalurgy illegal has already failed."

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Jackal, who had finished head pounding his way out of his cell, walked away, killing any denizens who got in his way, calling his staff to him.

"The random DA lawyer with no right to speak is correct. We cannot make something illegal when the senate has agreed to make it legal. Trying to do so would be foolish, and unconstitutional," Doomhorn said, "To that end, I believe we should adopt the citadel code of laws. It works, it is already in use, and it is practical."

[Voidus]

2 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Jackal, who had finished head pounding his way out of his cell, walked away, killing any denizens who got in his way, calling his staff to him.

 

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Sure that's the way you want to go? Also there are PCs present so you can't godmod kill them. Denizens are also hard enough to kill that you'll need to RP a bit beyond just 'killing any who got in his way'.
They're nerfed to normal power levels but they're not exactly helpless.

The young boy moved smoothly to block his path, staying silent.

[Vargo Seldon he/him]

11 hours ago, Fatebreaker said:

A DA lawyer spoke up, 

"I believe the correct phrase is 'Hemalurgy is the only thing keeping the city from dissolving into chaos' , which is true. We apprehended the Jackal after all. We've shown nothing but good will of late, why does the villanization of our benevolent organization continue so? Furthermore, the vote to make Hemalurgy illegal has already failed."

 

6 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Jackal, who had finished head pounding his way out of his cell, walked away, killing any denizens who got in his way, calling his staff to him.

"The random DA lawyer with no right to speak is correct. We cannot make something illegal when the senate has agreed to make it legal. Trying to do so would be foolish, and unconstitutional," Doomhorn said, "To that end, I believe we should adopt the citadel code of laws. It works, it is already in use, and it is practical."

"The limitations I put on hemalurgy are completely constitutional," Keleth said, "And just put a few safeties on a deadly art."  Keleth pulled out the scroll again, and quoted the section on hemalurgy: 

• Spike-outs shall only happen to the terminally sick and the elderly.  
• Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government.
• Form:

Spoiler

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic expirements, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life.  I am certified not insane.

 (Sign name here) 

 (Print name here) 

• Spike-ins must be accompanied by a copper spike to keep mental stability.

• Spike-ins may happen to anyone, as long as they are in accordance with hemalurgy laws.
• Spike-ins may not result in death.

"As you can see," He continued, "The laws on hemalurgy let the DA take anyone terminally sick or elderly without permission, and everyone else with permission.  They may also perform spike-ins on anyone they find, without discrimination.  All these do is prevent insanity and unnecessary deaths."

[Fatebreaker he/him]

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@Darth Woodrack just because the mask is indestructible doesn’t mean the Jackal has enough strength to break the cage. The mask isn’t shaped in such a way that it would make an effective piercing or chopping tool, since it’s shaped like the head of a Jackal. In addition, he can only use the force that his neck and torso can apply, unless he wants to take the mask off. I know he has enhanced strength, but can he headbutt through magically enhanced steel bars?

 

[I think I am here. he/him]

“It doesn’t seem anyone has any questions about the Ghostbloods,” Lusk said. “Good enough.”

—:—

Wes crept back. It seemed he was back out of control. No longer representative (Lusk had even taken back the little badge Wes had got), no longer important.

Sighing he adjusted his glasses with the Bendalloy reinforcing. And wrapping his cloak over himself again, he walked away, to his Ghostblood dorm.

Edited March 31, 2019 by I think I am here.

[Silva]

23 hours ago, Vargo Seldon said:

"As you can see," He continued, "The laws on hemalurgy let the DA take anyone terminally sick or elderly without permission, and everyone else with permission.  They may also perform spike-ins on anyone they find, without discrimination.  All these do is prevent insanity and unnecessary deaths."

"Your laws don't specify 'with permission' for everyone else," Pry said. She really didn't like this Diagramist representative. "All they say is, and I quote, "Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government." What is to prevent mistakes from occurring in cases where the form is signed only due to duress?"

 

 

[Vargo Seldon he/him]

3 hours ago, Silva said:

"Your laws don't specify 'with permission' for everyone else," Pry said. She really didn't like this Diagramist representative. "All they say is, and I quote, "Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government." What is to prevent mistakes from occurring in cases where the form is signed only due to duress?"

 

 

Keleth nodded.  Good point.  It seemed this one didn't really like him.  His social skills weren't the best.  "Yes, signing under duress is a problem," he conceded, "They can specify 'with permission' if you want them to, and if it really needs to be specified. As for the hemalurgic permission form, there can be a trustworthy government witness, but the witness could be biased or also forced to sign.  Another solution is that they have to be signed by a rep within the government building.  There are also numerous ways to prevent it using investiture."