Deadeye Forgery

[DrakeMarshall]

Remember how in Emperor's Soul, a braindead person's mind was recreated using an essence mark?

Dead shardblades are basically braindead spren (recall how Pattern said spren don't truly die, they just sort of break).

It seems probable that you could temporarily resurrect a "dead" shardblade with an essence mark, provided you knew enough about the blade's history to make a forgery.

There's most likely an easier way to revive a dead shardblade (I give it 50/50 odds that Adolin resurrects his blade at some point in the books), but, the idea is kind of interesting. Restoring an ancient and damaged thing seems like exactly the kind of thing forgery was made for.

[RShara]

The problem here is that investiture resists investiture. So trying to change a deadeye, made completely of investiture, would be really really hard, and might take more investiture than a stamp is capable of.

[Ashertliden]

5 minutes ago, Ookla of Drakeface said:

Restoring an ancient and damaged thing seems like exactly the kind of thing forgery was made for.

*Puts a soulstamp on a shard and makes adonalsium*

[DrakeMarshall]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

The problem here is that investiture resists investiture. So trying to change a deadeye, made completely of investiture, would be really really hard, and might take more investiture than a stamp is capable of.

Correct. This is why all but the most powerful allomancy doesn’t work on metalminds...

Or on humans, and any metal inside of humans, because humans are also invested.

But forgery works on humans. I think it is not quite as restricted as allomancy in that regard.

[Weltall]

The amount of Investiture in a Shardblade is way higher than the innate Investiture of a baseline human. Note how a Shardblade resists being cut by another Shardblade but a person... doesn't. For contrast a metalmind (which barring crazy things like the Bands is mid-level Invested per Brandon) can resist a Shardblade to an extent.

So Forgery working on humans says nothing about whether it could work on a Shardblade.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ookla the Gralsritter

[DrakeMarshall]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Gralsritter said:

The amount of Investiture in a Shardblade is way higher than the innate Investiture of a baseline human. Note how a Shardblade resists being cut by another Shardblade but a person... doesn't. For contrast a metalmind (which barring crazy things like the Bands is mid-level Invested per Brandon) can resist a Shardblade to an extent.

So Forgery working on humans says nothing about whether it could work on a Shardblade.

A shardblade can also cut humans that aren’t baseline.

For example, Returned and nahel spren are both splinters of a shard, and so probably have a comparable amount of investiture. But Returned are very probably not immune to shardblades.

I doubt even the Lord Ruler or Susebron enjoy the total immunity that a shardblade has to other shardblades cutting it. Both of them are very probably more invested than a shardblade by a couple orders of magnitude.

It seems necessary that there are other factors in play. I don’t think you can use a shardblade’s cutting power to predict investiture interference.

 

Edit: For that matter, it seems at least plausible that you could use an essence mark on a Returned.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ookla of Drakeface

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Ookla of Drakeface said:

For example, Returned and nahel spren are both splinters of a shard, and so probably have a comparable amount of investiture. But Returned are very probably not immune to shardblades.

Returned are not splinters. 

They are Cognitive Shadows anchored to their physical body by a splinter. The divine breath. 

Spren are beings composed entirely of Investiture. 

I think you are vastly underestimating the difficulty here. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

That all assumes that the spren doesn't want to be resurrected. I know investiture resists investiture, but In this case its got a mind(i have to assume they still have a subconscious.... Otherwise Maya would make no sense.) I'm willing to bet that if the investiture wants to change it will make a big difference.

[Jace21]

16 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

That all assumes that the spren doesn't want to be resurrected. I know investiture resists investiture, but In this case its got a mind(i have to assume they still have a subconscious.... Otherwise Maya would make no sense.) I'm willing to bet that if the investiture wants to change it will make a big difference.

I dont think it does. Remember in Dalinar's vision in order for one Radiant to be lashed they had to remove their Shardplate. Their obvious willingness to be lashed didn't make a difference.

Investiture resists investiture, itseems to be a hard and fast rule even if we dont know all the details yet.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Jace21

[Lidolas]

I think the barriers to getting into a situation where you could even attempt it are too difficult for 99.9% of the Cosmere. 

1. Get a dead blade from Roshar. They don't grow on trees.

2. Find a perpindicularity or an Elsecaller to get into the Cognative Realm. 

3. Find passage to Sel.  Probably the most dangerous place in the Cognative Realm.

4. Find another perpidicularity to get back into the Physical Realm.

5. Find a forger of significant skill.

6. The forger would have to know enough about the blade's spren to actually re-write a history.  I don't see how this would be possible, unless the gem recording in Urithiru have some very detailed stories.

[Steel Inquisitive]

9 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I dont think it does. Remember in Dalinar's vision in order for one Radiant to be lashed they had to remove their Shardplate. Their obvious willingness to be lashed didn't make a difference.

Investiture resists investiture, itseems to be a hard and fast rule even if we dont know all the details yet.

I'm not sure that's really a good comparison. Shardplate and a Shardblade are very different. Forgery and Lashings are very different. I see what your saying, but don't really agree. Yes investiture resists investiture, but if that investiture is alive and wants to change, than I think there would be less resistance. Shardplate isn't alive in the same way as shardblades. (Even if they do turn out to be the minor spren they wouldn't be as alive.)

[Gasper]

On 11/26/2018 at 3:10 PM, Ookla of Drakeface said:

A shardblade can also cut humans that aren’t baseline.

For example, Returned and nahel spren are both splinters of a shard, and so probably have a comparable amount of investiture. But Returned are very probably not immune to shardblades.

I doubt even the Lord Ruler or Susebron enjoy the total immunity that a shardblade has to other shardblades cutting it. Both of them are very probably more invested than a shardblade by a couple orders of magnitude.

It seems necessary that there are other factors in play. I don’t think you can use a shardblade’s cutting power to predict investiture interference.

 

Edit: For that matter, it seems at least plausible that you could use an essence mark on a Returned.

Also remember that a Shardblade is a massive incline plane being swung by a guy in magical power armor. Invested being/object/force field aside, having a six foot long blade hitting your body, even if it is not super naturally sharp, will cause a massive amount of damage. And by massive amount of damage, I mean that unless you are wearing power armor or have a storming dense body, or can heal, you will be deader than an aluminum gnat in a room full of angry, hungry, heavily armed koloss.

[Jace21]

7 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

I'm not sure that's really a good comparison. Shardplate and a Shardblade are very different. Forgery and Lashings are very different. I see what your saying, but don't really agree. Yes investiture resists investiture, but if that investiture is alive and wants to change, than I think there would be less resistance. Shardplate isn't alive in the same way as shardblades. (Even if they do turn out to be the minor spren they wouldn't be as alive.)

I see what you're getting at, but I see it differently.

We are talking about Deadblades here, which without a bond are, for all intents and purposes, mindless. They scream yes, but they don't seem to be conscious enough to permit themselves Forged, putting them in the same camp as Plate.

Likewise for the purposes of this debate, Forgery and Lashing work the same. Both are attempts by someone external to change the (spiritual) properties of an object. In forgeries case it is to rewrite it's past, for a Lashing it is a change to how it is effected by gravity. The end result is irrelevant, both are changes forced on an object by a 3rd party using investiture.

Even if the Blade was aware enough to give "permission" how is it different to a person giving "permission" for an invested object keyed to their identity (Plate) which is clearly impossible?

[Steel Inquisitive]

5 hours ago, Jace21 said:

I see what you're getting at, but I see it differently.

1.We are talking about Deadblades here, which without a bond are, for all intents and purposes, mindless. They scream yes, but they don't seem to be conscious enough to permit themselves Forged, putting them in the same camp as Plate.

2.Likewise for the purposes of this debate, Forgery and Lashing work the same. Both are attempts by someone external to change the (spiritual) properties of an object. In forgeries case it is to rewrite it's past, for a Lashing it is a change to how it is effected by gravity. The end result is irrelevant, both are changes forced on an object by a 3rd party using investiture.

3.Even if the Blade was aware enough to give "permission" how is it different to a person giving "permission" for an invested object keyed to their identity (Plate) which is clearly impossible?

Maya disproves the first point. She might be "waking up" but even before that she had a subconscious. I believe they all do. 

You have convinced me on point two. However, Forgery would have the power of the Dor behind it so...

As I have said: the plate isn't alive enough to give permission. Just because it's keyed to you wouldn't matter. The investiture would resist because that's what it does. A radiant spren however is much more alive. I believe if Kaladin wanted he could lash syl (also assuming she wanted it) but since Syl can fly and doesn't obey the laws of nature all ready.... What's the point? 

[Jace21]

24 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

1. Maya disproves the first point. She might be "waking up" but even before that she had a subconscious. I believe they all do. 

2. You have convinced me on point two. However, Forgery would have the power of the Dor behind it so...

3. As I have said: the plate isn't alive enough to give permission. Just because it's keyed to you wouldn't matter. The investiture would resist because that's what it does. A radiant spren however is much more alive. I believe if Kaladin wanted he could lash syl (also assuming she wanted it) but since Syl can fly and doesn't obey the laws of nature all ready.... What's the point? 

1. I think Maya proves my point, unless I have forgotten something. When do we see any conscious kr subconscious thought from her before sge begins waking/ forming a bond with Adolin?

2. Thats a fair point, I am not sure how you could increase the investiture used though, I doubt every forgery uses the whole power of the Dor.

3. Sure it would! Identity is significant for this kind of thing, it's why your own investiture doesnt interfere with itself. If the investiture itself resists, "permission" shouldn't matter. If I throw a rock at a wall it will bounce off, the same as I will if I run at it. The fact I am alive and permit myself to pass through the wall doesnt matter. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

16 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

1. I think Maya proves my point, unless I have forgotten something. When do we see any conscious kr subconscious thought from her before sge begins waking/ forming a bond with Adolin?

2. Thats a fair point, I am not sure how you could increase the investiture used though, I doubt every forgery uses the whole power of the Dor.

3. Sure it would! Identity is significant for this kind of thing, it's why your own investiture doesnt interfere with itself. If the investiture itself resists, "permission" shouldn't matter. If I throw a rock at a wall it will bounce off, the same as I will if I run at it. The fact I am alive and permit myself to pass through the wall doesnt matter. 

1. I think Maya proves my point..... So I don't know where we go from here My point being that deadblades do still have a mind it's just turned off. I like to think of them like a remote without a battery. Are they broken? Sort of. If you insert a battery however, boom still works. The deadblades, in my mind, are just operating on a subconscious level.

2. I can't imagine Forgery using entire Dor either.... But there has to be a way to increase power of a stamp. Maybe make them bigger? That seemed to work for Elantris. 

3. I think we are confusing terms here. Identity doesn't play into this too much (in my opinion of course). Because you are in invested being you can give permission for investiture to be used on you. Now, you aren't the most invested thing in the world so others can more easily override your wishes. Spren are a lot more invested so it would take more investiture to override what they want. But if they wanted the change than there wouldn't be as much interference.

[Scion of the Mists]

5 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

3. I think we are confusing terms here. Identity doesn't play into this too much (in my opinion of course). Because you are in invested being you can give permission for investiture to be used on you. Now, you aren't the most invested thing in the world so others can more easily override your wishes. Spren are a lot more invested so it would take more investiture to override what they want. But if they wanted the change than there wouldn't be as much interference.

I don' think that people can will their Investiture resistance away.  If I had metal inside my body, you wouldn't be able to suddenly Push on it just because I asked you to.  

[Jace21]

33 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

1. I think Maya proves my point..... So I don't know where we go from here My point being that deadblades do still have a mind it's just turned off. I like to think of them like a remote without a battery. Are they broken? Sort of. If you insert a battery however, boom still works. The deadblades, in my mind, are just operating on a subconscious level.

We are at an impasse it seems  I agree deadblades have a mind, albeit switched off. I just think that a switched off mind would prevent them permitting investiture to effect them, I dont think subconscious would be enough.

35 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

2. I can't imagine Forgery using entire Dor either.... But there has to be a way to increase power of a stamp. Maybe make them bigger? That seemed to work for Elantris. 

Good point, I think size would definitely work. I am sure there's another way too though, otherwise the WoBs we have about certain possible but inefficient forgeries don't work. What I wouldnt give for an interview with Shai.

37 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

3. I think we are confusing terms here. Identity doesn't play into this too much (in my opinion of course). Because you are in invested being you can give permission for investiture to be used on you. Now, you aren't the most invested thing in the world so others can more easily override your wishes. Spren are a lot more invested so it would take more investiture to override what they want. But if they wanted the change than there wouldn't be as much interference.

I think Identity is what lets any investiture be linked to a mind. If investiture is sentient of its own accord then it's own investiture is keyed to it's own identity. If I'm right then a Sprens power to permit investiture on its own body would be the same as a Radiant with his Plate. If I'm wrong then investiture resists investiture as a natural property, which can't be overcome through will. I cant change the way physical matter effect me just because I have a mind, I dont see why investiture would be different.

[Steel Inquisitive]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I don' think that people can will their Investiture resistance away.  If I had metal inside my body, you wouldn't be able to suddenly Push on it just because I asked you to.  

That's a different situation. Jace and I were debating whether you can stop or allow a spiritual change through willpower. Pushing/Pulling is purely a physical change.

@Jace21 To sum up:

We mostly agree on point one with contention on whether a subconscious mind would be enough.

Point two we are in complete agreement.

Point three has become too philosophical for me to think about right now Maybe I'll have more brain power later today (and not be running late for work! Yikes!).

[StrikerEZ]

@Steel Inqusitive Okay, here is the thing about Identity: it’s one of the underlying forces of how the Cosmere works, much like gravity in our world. Even if you really wanted to work against it, there is no way to do so (unless you have enough Investiture, but with enough Investiture you can do basically anything, so that’s besides the point. While perception and Intent do have some influence over things like this, I think the Identity of a spren would be enough to resist the Soulstamp. 

I basically agree with the conclusions you’ve made on the other two points. However, I do think that, even if a spren wanting the Forgery to happen were enough to overcome the Identity issues, a deadeye is still not conscious enough to let it happen.

[Jace21]

2 hours ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

That's a different situation. Jace and I were debating whether you can stop or allow a spiritual change through willpower. Pushing/Pulling is purely a physical change.

@Jace21 To sum up:

We mostly agree on point one with contention on whether a subconscious mind would be enough.

Point two we are in complete agreement.

Point three has become too philosophical for me to think about right now Maybe I'll have more brain power later today (and not be running late for work! Yikes!).

That pretty much sums it up 

The 3rd point is basically related to the definition of identity and the influence it has over investiture use. I dont think we have enough hard and fast info either way to be sure right now, but the debate is fun!

1 hour ago, Ookla-Shephir said:

@Steel Inqusitive Okay, here is the thing about Identity: it’s one of the underlying forces of how the Cosmere works, much like gravity in our world. Even if you really wanted to work against it, there is no way to do so (unless you have enough Investiture, but with enough Investiture you can do basically anything, so that’s besides the point. While perception and Intent do have some influence over things like this, I think the Identity of a spren would be enough to resist the Soulstamp. 

This is my understanding of Identity as well, it's so fundamental to the Cosmere you can't easily ignore it.

I don't know exactly how it works with investiture that is in and of itself sentient but I think it is likely it works the same as any other investiture keyed to someones identity.

[Steel Inquisitive]

@Ookla-Shephir I know that..... But think it would help not hinder this process..... After all the identity of the spren would not be of a cool sword.... The stamp would help restore it's original identity.... I don't know I'm not really married to the idea... I just like debating! On that note: thanks @Jace21 for indulging me! I think you win this one.

(btw what's up with the "ookla"? I keep seeing it in peoples user-names.)

Edited November 29, 2018 by Steel Inqusitive

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

@Ookla-Shephir I know that..... But think it would help not hinder this process..... After all the identity of the spren would not be of a cool sword.... The stamp would help restore it's original identity.... I don't know I'm not really married to the idea... I just like debating! On that note: thanks @Jace21 for indulging me! I think you win this one.

(btw what's up with the "ookla"? I keep seeing it in peoples user-names.)

The Identity of the spren should still be unique and not "sword" or "spren". 

The Spiritual property of Identity and the lower case identity we use for somethings self image are not the same thing. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Identity of the spren should still be unique and not "sword" or "spren". 

The Spiritual property of Identity and the lower case identity we use for somethings self image are not the same thing. 

So..... Am I right about Identity not being a big factor in Forgery? From what I recall of ES Identity didn't really come up. I know it's important in Feruchemy but.... I'm probably just being thick-headed now

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Steel Inqusitive said:

So..... Am I right about Identity not being a big factor in Forgery? From what I recall of ES Identity didn't really come up. I know it's important in Feruchemy but.... I'm probably just being thick-headed now

Identity is a factor. 

Quote

sebarial

Would a feruchemist actively storing identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of effecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra investiture. Something invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of investiture.

bubblebooy

That is what I had originally thought before you capitalized "ALL KINDS".Is soulcasting people like Jasnah Kholin did doubly hard since people a have a strong sense of identity and have innate investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

We're getting a bit far on this course, so it's time to pull out the RAFOs. I don't want to overplay my hand and leave the books without anything to talk about.

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

source

Edit: Investiture in and off itself resists other Investiture. Identity apparently reinforces that resistance. And in the case of Identity matching (I.E. A radiant and their own Shardplate) to bypass that resistance. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Calderis