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2 hours ago, AonEne said:

Okay, explain that reasoning to me. 

Well, never liked Elhokar since his introduction: inept, self-important, lazy, rash, arrogant, classist?/racist? (not sure what's the better fit for the lighteye/darkeye dynamic), drunk. He almost ordered Kaladin's execution over Amaram.

Moash, and all his anger and hatred, did make sense. He struck me as more of a tragic figure who lost his way. Looking forward to a redemption arc.

So, Moash's murder of Elhokar didn't really make me angry... the fact that Elhokar might've completed the Words, however, kinda blew my fuse.

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27 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Well, never liked Elhokar since his introduction: inept, self-important, lazy, rash, arrogant, classist?/racist? (not sure what's the better fit for the lighteye/darkeye dynamic), drunk. He almost ordered Kaladin's execution over Amaram.

Moash, and all his anger and hatred, did make sense. He struck me as more of a tragic figure who lost his way. Looking forward to a redemption arc.

So, Moash's murder of Elhokar didn't really make me angry... the fact that Elhokar might've completed the Words, however, kinda blew my fuse.

Keep in mind that from the perspective of most Rosharans, Elhokar isn’t particularly classist. Sure, he’s a lighteyes and views darkeyes in an inferior light, but he doesn’t specifically mistreat them; not onscreen, anyway. Yes, if it hadn’t been for Dalinar, he might have killed Kaladin because of what he said about Amaram, and that’s definitely extreme. But have you ever done something in a fit of anger? Kaladin had just completely ruined the plans that they’d made. That was not the time to get revenge on Amaram, and he should have known it, but he acted on strong emotions - and so did Elhokar, afterward. Besides, it was the law. 

Elhokar has been drunk like twice onscreen iirc. Both of those times were at the end of WOR, close together. I don’t think that counts as a personality trait. And while he’s quite inept at some things, he isn’t at others. Everyone is inept at something. 

I pretty much agree with your view of Moash. In fact, I think he can still have a redemption arc. But killing Elhokar was wrong. It made sense for Moash and I don’t blame him for it, but he still shouldn’t have done it. That’s why I disputed your “he did nothing wrong”. 

It’s hard for me to see Elhokar Kholin swearing the First Ideal as well, but I recognize that it was foreshadowed. Brandon painted Elhokar as someone who had made a lot of mistakes, and someone who was certainly broken. He also consistently tried to improve himself, even if he wasn’t doing the best at it that he could have. So I understand his path toward Radiancy, even if I probably wouldn’t have guessed that he would actually get there. (Which, in the end, he didn’t.) 

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3 hours ago, AonEne said:

Keep in mind that from the perspective of most Rosharans, Elhokar isn’t particularly classist. Sure, he’s a lighteyes and views darkeyes in an inferior light, but he doesn’t specifically mistreat them; not onscreen, anyway. Yes, if it hadn’t been for Dalinar, he might have killed Kaladin because of what he said about Amaram, and that’s definitely extreme. But have you ever done something in a fit of anger? Kaladin had just completely ruined the plans that they’d made. That was not the time to get revenge on Amaram, and he should have known it, but he acted on strong emotions - and so did Elhokar, afterward. Besides, it was the law. 

Elhokar has been drunk like twice onscreen iirc. Both of those times were at the end of WOR, close together. I don’t think that counts as a personality trait. And while he’s quite inept at some things, he isn’t at others. Everyone is inept at something. 

I pretty much agree with your view of Moash. In fact, I think he can still have a redemption arc. But killing Elhokar was wrong. It made sense for Moash and I don’t blame him for it, but he still shouldn’t have done it. That’s why I disputed your “he did nothing wrong”. 

It’s hard for me to see Elhokar Kholin swearing the First Ideal as well, but I recognize that it was foreshadowed. Brandon painted Elhokar as someone who had made a lot of mistakes, and someone who was certainly broken. He also consistently tried to improve himself, even if he wasn’t doing the best at it that he could have. So I understand his path toward Radiancy, even if I probably wouldn’t have guessed that he would actually get there. (Which, in the end, he didn’t.) 

Almost too many words for me to read right now.....

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10 hours ago, Honorless said:

Never liked Elhokar

Moash did nothing wrong

Storms, that worked for about 3 hours:P

Let’s try this...

Next it shall be assumed that the next person that posts hates Brandon Sanderson with all of their soul and then some.

*wins* hehehehehehehehehehehehhe

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3 hours ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Storms, that worked for about 3 hours:P

Let’s try this...

Next it shall be assumed that the next person that posts hates Brandon Sanderson with all of their soul and then some.

*wins* hehehehehehehehehehehehhe

Try it again. It might work eventually.

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8 hours ago, AonEne said:

Keep in mind that from the perspective of most Rosharans, Elhokar isn’t particularly classist. Sure, he’s a lighteyes and views darkeyes in an inferior light, but he doesn’t specifically mistreat them; not onscreen, anyway. Yes, if it hadn’t been for Dalinar, he might have killed Kaladin because of what he said about Amaram, and that’s definitely extreme. But have you ever done something in a fit of anger? Kaladin had just completely ruined the plans that they’d made. That was not the time to get revenge on Amaram, and he should have known it, but he acted on strong emotions - and so did Elhokar, afterward. Besides, it was the law. 

Elhokar has been drunk like twice onscreen iirc. Both of those times were at the end of WOR, close together. I don’t think that counts as a personality trait. And while he’s quite inept at some things, he isn’t at others. Everyone is inept at something. 

I pretty much agree with your view of Moash. In fact, I think he can still have a redemption arc. But killing Elhokar was wrong. It made sense for Moash and I don’t blame him for it, but he still shouldn’t have done it. That’s why I disputed your “he did nothing wrong”. 

It’s hard for me to see Elhokar Kholin swearing the First Ideal as well, but I recognize that it was foreshadowed. Brandon painted Elhokar as someone who had made a lot of mistakes, and someone who was certainly broken. He also consistently tried to improve himself, even if he wasn’t doing the best at it that he could have. So I understand his path toward Radiancy, even if I probably wouldn’t have guessed that he would actually get there. (Which, in the end, he didn’t.) 

If I got what you're trying to say with the "most Rosharans..." comment right, yeah, that is true. Elhokar is a product of his society. Yes, he has a more general disregard for darkeyes rather than any particular gangsta-style racism, still that kind of behavior doesn't look good on a person, much less a ruler. "Besides, it was the law"??? the hell...? I'm not touching that sentence. Yes, it was the wrong time to choose for Kaladin but he definitely didn't deserve even the jail time for that! Specially considering the things Amaram did.

I didn't count how often (or otherwise) he was drunk. He didn't have many appearances though, and those seemed pretty defining moments for his character. Elhokar was always a centre of the party but not the politics, he didn't partake in any decision-making, a point acknowledged by Dalinar & Navani. Being a King overshadows being a budding architect though, and he seemed quite dismal at that role.

Killing, in general, is wrong. It making sense from Moash's context should be the point of argument here.

Yes, Elhokar for all his failings did try to make things right at the end, possibly even at the start but with much less inspiration. It was far to soon for me to warm up towards that character, however.

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