Where's WalDo: The Kandra Worldhopper

[The Invested Beard]

Wouldn't working beneath Odium's rule kind of go against Autonomy's intent and therefore be a non-starter?

[Khyrindor he/him]

Like I said, Preservation and Ruin worked together to Create, so long as Ruin could destroy it later. I presume Odium and Autonomy would have the same kind of deal. Plus, Autonomy gets to follow his Intent to free Scadrial from Harmony. 

[The Invested Beard]

Like I said, Preservation and Ruin worked together to Create, so long as Ruin could destroy it later. I presume Odium and Autonomy would have the same kind of deal. Plus, Autonomy gets to follow his Intent to free Scadrial from Harmony. 

 

*Gets that Lloyd Christmas look*

 

...So you're saying there's a chance.

[Titan Arum]

Wouldn't working beneath Odium's rule kind of go against Autonomy's intent and therefore be a non-starter?

Not necessarily. Autonomy doesn't have to mean that you're a hermit. It can also imply that you have freedom to make your own choices; freedom to do things how you see fit. If Autonomy decided, on his own merits without being coerced, to join with Odium (even if only briefly), then his intent still stands. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Titan Arum

[Fezzik]

I would just like to bring us back to the thread by saying I support mrall as kandra.

Pros: Bald

Not in charge, but close to the power

Says he can turn off emotions at will

[BrightVoid he/him]

How is bald a pro?

[Eki]

How is bald a pro?

Kandra can't make hair, and they have to arrange every individual hair once they actually get a hold of some. Being bald is just easier if you're a kandra.

[BrightVoid he/him]

I vote Iyatil as not a kandra as it is suspected that she is a southern Scadrian, what with the obsession with masks.

[Khyrindor he/him]

I vote Iyatil as not a kandra as it is suspected that she is a southern Scadrian, what with the obsession with masks.

 

Correction: Iyatil was born and raised on a planet other than Scadrial or Roshar, however, she is of Hunter descent.

 

I do agree that she's likely not Kandra, but that's not definitive proof. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Khyrindor

[hoidhunter he/him]

I would also say that Mrall is too important of a character to be a hidden kandra...it's most likely someone who is good at staying in the background...someone who doesn't have to make decisions that influence the outcome of important events (over a long period of time).  Even on Scadrail the inspector was only replaced long enough to put Wax into position.

 

BTW...going way back in the thread...the kandra ritual of "ChanGarr" (if memory serves me) was the deal where they break all of your bones in front of everyone, and then lock you in a hole in the ground "forever" (until you go completely insane and lose the will to live). I realize that it sound like a kandra name...and maybe it's named after someone...but it could also be that kandra words just sound like that.

Edited June 2, 2016 by hoidhunter

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Are we definitely sure the Kandra is pheremonally female, and not just wearing a female body? That topic about VenDell and his suit has got me this thinking of Warbreaker

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

So technically Mistborn Era 1 can still predate SA right?

The kandra is totally Taln! Totally.

 

Technically, if we think about it, Mistborn Era 1 (i.e. Kelsier, Vin, Elend) are all approximately 1,000 years after the Ascension of TLR.  There's an entire Mistborn Era 0.5, or Era -1 that could possibly shed light on this.  I wonder how much TLR meddled in cosmere affairs.  Perhaps he sent the kandra out and about?  How awesome would it be to have the kandra return to Sazed one day, incredibly confused at what has transpired since they've been gone!

[Yata he/him]

Technically, if we think about it, Mistborn Era 1 (i.e. Kelsier, Vin, Elend) are all approximately 1,000 years after the Ascension of TLR.  There's an entire Mistborn Era 0.5, or Era -1 that could possibly shed light on this.  I wonder how much TLR meddled in cosmere affairs.  Perhaps he sent the kandra out and about?  How awesome would it be to have the kandra return to Sazed one day, incredibly confused at what has transpired since they've been gone!

If I remember right, there is a WoB about TLR that Knowed the Cosmere but He didn't care of events out of Scadrial.

[iBambam]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:41 AM, Yata said:

If I remember right, there is a WoB about TLR that Knowed the Cosmere but He didn't care of events out of Scadrial.

I remember that WoB, but it may have been about Sazed and not TLR if I remember correctly. But it's been a while.

[Yata he/him]

32 minutes ago, iBambam said:

I remember that WoB, but it may have been about Sazed and not TLR if I remember correctly. But it's been a while.

I may try to find it (but with the new layout may be hard) but I think talked about TLR because:

We know that Sazed want to know about the Cosmere but someone try to limit his knowledge and this attitude doesn't fit well with the "don't care" of the WoB

[Windrunner he/him]

Here's the quote that I think you're referring to:

Quote

QUESTION
Did the Lord Ruler know how to worldhop?

BRANDON SANDERSON
He was familiar with the idea that people lived on other planets, but had no interest—or experience—in visiting other places. During his Ascension, he could have left Scadrial, if he'd wished.

Source

Is this the one?

[Yata he/him]

Yes Windrunner, It was the one I talk about 

[iBambam]

that does make more sense that it would be TLR and not Sazed. Thanks for asking the research!

[zeppomarks]

So, I'm sure this has been brought up already, but I can't easily find anything so here goes...

I believe that the Kandra worldhopper is Paalm. 

It seems doubtful that the Kandra worldhopper appeared in any of the stories taking place on Sel since they happened before Mistborn Era 1 and WoB says that the Lord Ruler wasn't interested in worldhopping. And since we know that the worldhopper has shown up in another text, it has to either be Warbreaker, Shadows for Silence, Stormlight Archive, or Sixth of the Dusk. Of those five possible texts, all of them except for Sixth of the Dusk take place between Mistborn Era 1 and 2. Just going by word count throughout all of those stories, I would say that the Kandra worldhopper showing up in Sixth of the Dusk is certainly possible, albeit statistically unlikely. So, admittedly without any proof, I'm going to assume that the Kandra worldhopper showed up in one of the four texts that takes place between Mistborn Era 1 and 2. This means that they were a servant of Harmony.

Now, Mr. Sanderson said, or at least heavily implied, in Dec 2014 that MeLaan is not the worldhopper but that the (at the time) upcoming Mistborn Era 2 novels would give us more options as to who it could be. As far as I remember, the only Kandra introduced in those two novels is Paalm and VenDell. I have no proof that it isn't VenDell, but he doesn't really seem like the ima-shoot-around-the-universe type. Paalm, however, was fanatically loyal to Harmony and would do so in a heartbeat if he was even the slightest bit curious about the rest of the Cosmere, which he certainly is. 

So, we come to the Odium-laced part of the theory. Trying to guess the future. What I think will end up being revealed, likely in The Last Metal, is that Paalm hopped over to at least one other world, though probably more than one, and that's where she caught the attention of Trell. They probably had some words over Harmony and all that and he was like, "I'm telling you. Someday, he'll ask you to do something that ain't cool and you won't be into it. Just hang on to this spike for me, alright? It might come in handy someday." Badabing badaboom, stuff goes down and Paalm finally realizes that maybe that Trell guy had a point, ditches the two regular spikes, falls onto the Trellium spike, and goes on a riot-riling rampage of revenge. 

Side note and wild, baseless idea: Do y'all think Trell might be a third shard that created life on Scadrial? There's naught but flimsy connections in my head, but hear me out for a second. It seems wacky to me that life could be created solely by Preservation and Ruin. How does a being that only wants to destroy and another that only wants to preserve come together to make anything? Like it says that Preservation wanted to have kids, but couldn't due to the limitations of the shard. So, he hits up Ruin? How does that make any sense? If Leras was already too bound to his shard, it stands to reason that Ati was too, therefore how could "Lord Kaiju Destroy Everything Jr." help create life? Now, say, if one were to throw another shard into the mix, like, oh I don't know... Autonomy? That sounds like a baby-makin' combination to me. A little bit of Preservation for the desire to live and procreate, a little bit of Ruin for mortality, and a little bit of Autonomy for free will n such. And it would totally make sense why Preservation and Ruin were the only one's around for so long. The nature of their shards compels them to focus their efforts on preserving and destroying Scadrial, respectively, while the nature of Autonomy would compel him not to care in the slightest. Since Preservation and Ruin could keep each other in check, no one was directly controlling the people of Scadrial, so his gift of free will was the strongest. However, once Harmony arose, that balance kind of went out the window with one hand on the reins. And he can't oppose Harmony directly since Harm's got two shards and all.

The only bit of evidence for this theory that I can think of, and it's incredibly tenuous evidence, is that Trell has an allomantically active metal associated with him and the only shards revealed to be in any way associated with any sort of metal were Preservation and Ruin with Lerasium and Atium. But then again, it's totally possible that this so called Trellium is just an alloy of one of those two god metals and a base metal though. I mean, the Ars Arcanum hints an another fifteen possible metals, similar to Malatium (the Atium-Gold alloy that doesn't appear anywhere in the Ars Arcanum). Perhaps it's just an alloy of Atium and Aluminum? Alatium? Creating a hemalurgic spike with an alloy combining a god metal with the only allomantically inert metal seems like a good way to hide someone from Harmony. But then again, again, Harmony has no idea what kind of metal it is, and I doubt he wouldn't be able to be like, "Oh, yeah, that's totally a physical manifestation of my power mixed with another metal I totally know." That lends credence to the possibility of another god metal. Plus, the book is called The Last Metal. There's fifteen more alloys to be discovered on Scadrial, but no other metals. This Trellium has to be a completely separate metal, not a combination of two already known metals.

TL;DR: I think Paalm is WalDo and maybe, possibly, probably not but who knows, Trell helped create Scadrial. But, with logical arguments to support my theories and stuff.

Like I said, I'm sure at least the first one has been brought up by someone before, but I couldn't find it.

Edit: Oh, and the strongest clue for identifying the non-Mistborn appearance of the Kandra worldhopper that I know of is that Mr. Sanderson said that he couldn't remember if they had ever had any spoken dialogue during their appearance, which eliminates a TON of characters. You can easily eliminate all major and side characters. Anyone that's had more than a few lines of meaningful dialogue is likely out of the running. Which means we're most likely looking for a character that either didn't speak or had such an incredibly small part that it was easy for the man who wrote it to forget the details. It may not seem like much, but that limits the possibilities to a fraction of the characters.

Edited August 21, 2016 by zeppomarks
Added information.

[goody153]

Interesting Paalm makes sense. 

Quote

Do y'all think Trell might be a third shard that created life on Scadrial?

We already know that it's just Preservation and Ruin that settled in Scadrial and created people in there. Also they used Human framework from where they belonged which is why Scandrians are like humanlike. Ruin and Preservation may have given a part of themselves to humanity but that is only to give them sentience not really the nature of Scandrians.

Not saying that it's not possible for another shard to visit Scadrial before but i think this Trell guy is new to Scadrial. And err i don't think anybody would probably wanted to get close to where Ruin is.

Edited August 21, 2016 by goody153

[RYANHOME he/him]

Trell was worshipped by the Nelazan before TLR ascended. What is the consensus of it being the same Trell as in BoM? @goody153

Edited August 21, 2016 by RYANHOME
Just curious

[Jondesu he/him]

6 minutes ago, RYANHOME said:

Trell was worshipped by the Nelazan before TLR ascended. What is the consensus of it being the same Trell as in BoM? @goody153

My opinion is that it's likely not, and that instead the name Trell has been co-opted by someone or something else.  If it's a Shard, then certainly it could be the same, but it just doesn't feel right.

jW

[Eki]

I like that theory, @zeppomarks, but I don't think we'll learn all of that stuff in The Last Metal, since you would need knowledge about the wider Cosmere for it to make sense. It might be hinted at and stuff, but I don't think the book will literally say "she travelled to another world" or anything.

[zeppomarks]

4 hours ago, goody153 said:

We already know that it's just Preservation and Ruin that settled in Scadrial and created people in there

Yeah, I'm highly skeptical of my own idea there, however in regards to the above sentence, do we have WoB on this or is this information just from the novels. Because to be fair, he's great at providing misleading or outright incorrect information in the novels based on what would be considered common knowledge for the characters in the book.

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

My opinion is that it's likely not, and that instead the name Trell has been co-opted by someone or something else.

That's certainly possible, but it does beg the question as to why whoever Trell is would bother Swiper swiping the name of a god that hasn't been worshiped in nearly a millennia and a half, and who holds minimal, if any, sway over the people of Mistborn Era 2. Like, it would certainly make sense that Sazed would have mentioned all of his religions in the Words of Founding, given who he was when he was mortal, but in Era 2 there's no evidence to support this if he did. There are only four religions (Pathism, Survivorism, Sliverism, and Trellism) mentioned throughout all three novels. It doesn't make sense to me with the information we have why a being who isn't the real Trell would take the name. Unless it's actually Trell's jealous brother Nalt come back, but I don't know why that would even be a thing. I really doubt any of this, I'm just kind of throwing stuff out there.

2 hours ago, Eki said:

I like that theory, @zeppomarks, but I don't think we'll learn all of that stuff in The Last Metal, since you would need knowledge about the wider Cosmere for it to make sense. It might be hinted at and stuff, but I don't think the book will literally say "she travelled to another world" or anything.

You're probably right, but I'm not sure. The last half of BoM was pretty revelatory and game changing. TLM could be the same. Especially if it's going to be leading into Era 3 which will have space travel and such. I could see TLM breaking open a lot of the Cosmere to us.

Edit: nvm on that last part. Forgot that Era 4 is space travel. You're probably right, TLM probably won't just bust out and say "Paalm was totally the merchant that got Szeth out of Alethkar!" It'll be a few more years until the Cosmere starts really busting out on us.

Edited August 21, 2016 by zeppomarks

[zeppomarks]

And just to dig myself deeper into this ridiculous "Trell/Autonomy helped create Scadrial" nonsense, my stupid brain thought up another possible connection...

Take how investiture seems to work.

Nalthis only has the shard Endowment, and therefore only has one form of investiture, Awakening.

On Roshar you have Surgebinding which, I believe, was created in a cooperative effort between Cultivation and Honor since they were at one point romantically involved and Surgebinding seems to be a mix of creating or recreating things and affecting how something perceives its obligations (i.e. if a heavy object perceives that it's obligation is to fall downward, a lashing simply alters that object's perception so that it thinks it should fall sideways or upwards or whatever). Roshar also has Voidbinding which hasn't really been explored much but is most likely of Odium.

Sel is a little different, though still fits with the overall scheme we're looking at. Sel only had two shards, yet have far more than two forms of investiture, however I believe that the many forms of investiture simply stem from how the two shards interact with each other. You have Dominion and Devotion. The forms of investiture on Sel are separated by geographic regions, a la Dominion. However, they all seem to need symbols in order to access the Dor. The more well crafted the symbol, the more potent the effect. This is where Devotion comes in. The closer the symbol is to perfection, the better. Which means that the more devoted the crafter is to their craft and getting the symbol correct, the easier it is to access the Dor. We still don't know the details for Dakhor, but even ChayShan fits this formula. While it's not a written or carved symbol, there are still very specific motions one must make before being able to access the Dor.

Now, we get to Scadrial. Allomancy is purely of Preservation. Hemalurgy is purely of Ruin. But what about Feruchemy? Now, it could be argued that it is a mix of both Ruin and Preservation, effectively "ruining" a current ability in order to "preserve" it's use for later. But that's not really what's happening. The Ars Arcanum states that a person is essentially transferring their own capabilities forward in time for when they need them. Feruchemy is "end-neutral" with no power being lost or created. All power in Feruchemy comes directly from one's self and is dependent on no other outside source for power, only a container in which to house that power. This seems super Autonomy-ish to me. Like I said, this can be explained as a combination of ruin and preservation, but that doesn't feel quite as elegant to me, and I've come to expect damnation-near-staggering levels of contemplation and elegance from Mr. Sanderson. 

On top of this, if one is a believer in the Trell-Autonomy theory (which i is one o dem), why is he so fixated on Harmony's "domination" of Scadrial? He doesn't seem super fussy about Odium trying to destroy Roshar for the last who-knows-how-long. And sure, he might show up in Nalthis to (twenty-year-old reference incoming) "people's elbow" Endowment in one of the future Warbreaker novels, but super doubt it. He just seems way too focused on Scadrial to not have some personal stake in the game.

You know, at the beginning of this post I was skeptical of this whole line of reasoning, but I'm just gonna go with it. I mean, if you can't accept your own brand of wacky...

Also, just in case folks think I'm trying to jack this thread, that's not my intention. I'm currently trying to put together a comprehensive list of all characters in WoK, WoR, SfSitFoH (fun to type, funner to say), and Warbreaker that may have been WalDo.