animalia Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Kind of a random thought but I wonder if it’s possible to be broken WITHOUT realizing or thinking you are broken. Maybe that’s the reason that the patron herald of the Stonewards lasted so long. He basically broke a long time ago but took forever to realize it. The reason I bring is this up is because of all the talk about Adolin and Maya. It’s been speculated before that Shalash, patron of the Lightweavers might end up becoming a Dustbringer. And when you think about their opposite positions on the Knight Radiant board it makes sense, she’s changed so much she’s become her opposite. Well guess what position is opposite the Edgedancers, aka the type of Knight Radiant Maya belonged to, the Stonewards. Maybe similar to how Shalash will become a whole new type of Radiant/Kinght (in theory at least), THAT’S how Maya will be revived as a whole new type of spren. I could be wrong of course but it seems to fit. Adolin was born under the symbol of the patron herald of the Stonewards. Also IF he is broken but doesn’t realize it (and such a thing is possible, etc,) the reason why he doesn’t attract his own spren could be because of the reason mentioned with Maya. 1
StrikerEZ he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) @animalia I'd just like to point out that being "broken" is an in-world explanation for people being able to bond spren; this isn't canon, though it hasn't pretty good WoB evidence, but many of us believe that children can bond spren because their spiritwebs are underdeveloped at young ages. You also don't have to be as broken as say Kaladin or Shallan. I think it's a bit unfair to compare levels of "brokenness" between characters. Everyone responds to situations differently and has different emotions, so what may be enough to break one person may not be enough to break someone else. Also, extreme emotions like happiness can also be enough to snap people, which is the same Cosmere mechanic as being broken. It's highly likely Adolin could have "Snapped" through intense joy or some other emotion at a previous point in his life. As for Maya changing spren type, this should be completely and utterly impossible. Unless she is given new Investiture from either Honor or Cultivation so that she no longer would be a cultivationspren and would instead be classified as a Stonewardspren, this cannot happen. I think it's highly likely that Adolin will simply being reviving Maya and becoming an Edgedancer. He fits the order pretty well, in my opinion, and he has already been able to do things with Maya that should be impossible since she's dead. Edited July 17, 2018 by StrikerEZ
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Yeah, I think Kaladin and Shallan shouldn't even remotely be taken as the baseline for amount of brokeness you need to be a Radiant. Also Brandon has mplied there's other methods then brokenness such as maybe being "open" (or something like that) which might be how Lopen managed to bond a spren despite being apparently impervious to negative emotions. He just really really wanted it. That might also be how Adolin qualifies though I actually think he's got more issues then are immediately apparent and might qualify the "usual" way. And he definitely fits as an Edgedancer. I expect him to get along very well with Lift.
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 It's an interesting theory too, it just doesn't really fit with the metaphysics, as far as we understand them. Which admittedly, maybe isn't that far.
animalia Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said: It's an interesting theory too, it just doesn't really fit with the metaphysics, as far as we understand them. Which admittedly, maybe isn't that far. Speaking of Adolin HAS changed. He might not have changed much but the change is there. IF YOU ARE right about him being an Edgedancer maybe in the next book, once Dalinar’s confessions comes out, Adolin will tell Sadeas’ wife (can’t remember her name) about the fact that he killed her husband. Because let’s be honest, Adolin has PROBABLY been operating under some misconceptions here. He might have thought that Sadeas was responsible for his mom’s death. While I doubt it will change his mind that it needed to be done it may make him re-examine his motives about why he did it. It might also make him realize that in some ways Sadeas and his own wife had their own warped marriage similar to that of his parents, and that his wife has been ignored while in her genuine greif and he is the one person who can give her answers. So in that case he would be listening to those who were ignored. how does that idea sound?
Calderis he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, animalia said: He might have thought that Sadeas was responsible for his mom’s death. He believed that his mother was killed by assassin's from a rebel group, which put in context, is obviously the result official story released after the Rift.
animalia Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 Has anyone here been to the Oathbringer reread on Tor?
Quantus he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 To the OP: I would tend to think the vast majority of broken people arent aware of it, as a general statement. Granted I think a lot of the purpose (both Doyistic and Watsonian) of the Ideals it to guide the Radiant toward recognizing and reconciling that reality, but I think in most cases the process will have started long before they actually get to that level of introspection. But consider the reeeeaally broken people, the classically Mad are often unable to recognize the fact of their own madness, almost by definition (Im looking at you Ishar...). 1
NiceBleach Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 I assume that Adolin and Maya will become something new that we haven't seen or heard of before, sort of like how Venli (a Listener) bonded Timbre (a spren of Honor), or Renarin (a human) bonded Glys (a spren of Honor, corrupted to become a spren of Odium). This new Desolation is full of things that have never happened before. That doesn't necessarily mean that Maya will become a spren of the Stonewards. According to someone from Shadesmar in Oathbringer, it isn't possible to revive a spren who has died and whose Radiant has also died, but who knows. New things are happening that have never happened before. Additionally, a being who is "broken" has suffered some great trauma. I assume this has to be mental, as opposed to physical, trauma. As I'm writing this, I realized that being "broken" in this way is, like the fulfillment of the Radiants' oaths, a matter of perception. The fulfillment and following of a Radiant's oaths is, as Kaladin discovered at the end of WoR, determined by the Radiant's perception of whether or not they are following their oaths. A person could witness a thousand deaths without "breaking," but if someone they love is brutally murdered in front of them, they (could) "break." Perception. This would seem to disprove @animalia's theory about being "broken" and not realizing it, but perhaps not. Perhaps someone can be "broken" in this way and not realize it. We don't know. What I think happened is that Taln was "broken" just like the other heralds, but the other heralds were all mentally exhausted and scared. They were all scared of the torture. Taln, in his absolute selflessness, was willing to withstand the torture in order to spare humanity. It wasn't that Taln wasn't "broken" or didn't realize that he was "broken". It was that Taln was selfless, and the other nine heralds were not.
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 People react to stress differently, what breaks one person might not break another person. And some people are just inherently prone to mental illness regardless of what happens to them due to genetic factors. Kaladin had issues with depression even when he was young though they were of course made worse by what happened to him. As for not realizing it, if somebody has had problems since they were very young they might not realize it's out of the ordinary because it's just normal for them. Or they could deny it (consciously or unconsciously) because of stigma against mental illness.
Calderis he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 This all assumes that "broken" has to manifest as some kind of psychological issue to begin with. I don't think that's what "broken" is. Fear, pain, love, joy, loss, whatever. If it's an emotional experience that shakes you to your core and changes your view of the world permanently, that's it. It doesn't have to be trauma, it doesn't have to be horribly scarring and leave you unable to function normally. It just needs to leave you changed deeply.
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Spren cannot change their fundamental nature. There's no way a cultvationspren can be any thing else. In fact, that unchanging nature is a primary factor in why spren are so interested in humanity. To a spren, the ability to change is a strength of the species, to be able to form different opinions.
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Yeah spren are static unless bonded to a human, which still doesn't change their basic nature, or unless something powerful tampers with them like Sja-anat and her "enlightening" business.
animalia Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 Sorry. And I KNEW you didn't have to be broken to bond ala Lopen. However I WAS thinking from the point of view of Yin-Yang symbolism. That combined with how little we knew about the stonewards (and another crazy WMG I don't even want to go into because it's even MORE crazy) was what made me think of it.
Calderis he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Lopen is kind of what I meant... He's not mentally broken, but he lost an arm and was branded as a slave. His life has not been rainbows and sunshine. Just because he hasn't succumbed to some dark mental anguish doesn't mean he hasn't met the requirement that both "being broken" and snapping are. Even if those in world would not consider him broken, I don't see how it's possible to go through the thing he has and not have that meet the requirements. The WoBs don't say that Lopen isn't broken, they say he doesn't have a dark past. Those aren't the same thing.
SzethIsBadAsHell he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 26 minutes ago, animalia said: Sorry. And I KNEW you didn't have to be broken to bond ala Lopen. However I WAS thinking from the point of view of Yin-Yang symbolism. That combined with how little we knew about the stonewards (and another crazy WMG I don't even want to go into because it's even MORE crazy) was what made me think of it. Lopen acts positive all the time . That could be a front . Inside he could really be depressed but hides it with jokes and super positive attitude . I have heard before that Lopen is written as the exact opposite of Galladon from Elantris . Galladon always said “ sule” , Lopen says Gancho. Galladon always cautions Raodon something bad will happen , Lopen always See’s Something good will happen . Etc. anyways by him loosing his arm , becoming a Slave and never letting it stop him from believing he was open to a spren that just as crazy as he is. I love Rua, out of all the spren his personality is so amazing to me and I would love to see more of him and future books
NiceBleach Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Calderis said: This all assumes that "broken" has to manifest as some kind of psychological issue to begin with. I don't think that's what "broken" is. Fear, pain, love, joy, loss, whatever. If it's an emotional experience that shakes you to your core and changes your view of the world permanently, that's it. It doesn't have to be trauma, it doesn't have to be horribly scarring and leave you unable to function normally. It just needs to leave you changed deeply. This kind of "broken" refers to something having caused cracks in your soul, which provide space for Investiture.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, NiceBleach said: This kind of "broken" refers to something having caused cracks in your soul, which provide space for Investiture. I'm well aware of that. 1
NiceBleach Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 I was doubting that love would produce this effect.
SzethIsBadAsHell he/him Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, NiceBleach said: I was doubting that love would produce this effect. I think that the universal constant is loss. The person would had to have lost something precious to them . And was made stronger because of it. So no love probably won’t create this effect unless u lost someone u loved perhaps
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 Calderis probably has the WOB on deck, the one that states one's spiritweb can be cracked by extreme joy. Intensity matters.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2018 Posted July 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said: I think that the universal constant is loss. The person would had to have lost something precious to them . And was made stronger because of it. So no love probably won’t create this effect unless u lost someone u loved perhaps 24 minutes ago, NiceBleach said: I was doubting that love would produce this effect. Breaking is the same mechanism as snapping in Mistborn. It is a Cosmere wide mechanic. The thresholds just vary. Quote Questioner Why, in your books, are your characters so often, per say - before they get the powers they become broken first. Brandon Sanderson There is a narrative reason and an in-world reason. The narrative reason is characters in pain are more interesting to write about. This is just a rule of thumb for writing. Find the person whose in the most trouble, things are going the worst for and that's generally your easiest character. In the stories, the actual Cosmere, the mechanics of the magic finds, this is only one way to describe it - its not the only way - might not be one hundred per cent accurate but it's an easy metaphor, cracks in the soul allow the magic to seep in and that's how you end up with a lot of the different magic systems. source Quote Jeremy (paraphrased) We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others. source And as the annotations from Mistborn tell us, it is possible to snap from joy. (cut for length as only the last paragraph is relevant, an it won't unbold...) Quote Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control. source Its not about trauma. It's about emotional extremes. 2
cantabile21 Posted July 21, 2018 Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 7:25 AM, SzethIsBadAsHell said: Lopen acts positive all the time . That could be a front . Adolin acts positive all the time too and that is also a front. As the favoured son of the Blackthorn and the heir of the Kholin princedom, he has always been expected to act strong, be just and moral, and to be a leader. For the most part most of this comes naturally to him, but there is also this undercurrent of Adolin feeling inadequate and unworthy and in the shadow of his father whom he could never hope to match. His self esteem has always been rooted in his identity and his skill with the sword, but now that the world has completely shifted, the things about himself that he took pride in just don't seem to matter anymore... and therefore Adolin himself doesn't matter anymore. He doesn't say so in so many words, but it's there, in his introspective moments that don't last long because he then consciously chooses not to dwell on it, and instead gets up and tries to makes himself useful in what small ways he can, even though everyone around him is wielding Stormlight and changing the world. 7
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