[OB] Can you be broken without realizing it?: Speculation on the Stonewards, Adolin, and Maya

[goody153]

Ah my bad i glossed over the "Adolin and his sword". Guess that implies the Adolin is Radiant angle going on but still the way worded his answers by talking "so lets talk around the spoilers" could also mean that he's making an example of another person instead of Adolin regarding the well-adjusted etc etc. cause it seems really weird to me that he'd still say that it's spoiler-territory and he'd still spill it.

I mean Sanderson has sometimes answered questions that aren't really about the exact context target. Like this one about Harmony/Odium

Spoiler

Quote

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's off-world, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge.

source

The "forces" could mean anybody from Odium, to group of people, to group of shards etc and does not necessarily mean Odium himself even wheen the question was specifically about them.

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by goody153

[CrazyRioter she/her]

27 minutes ago, cantabile21 said:

RShara, you have just made my day!!! Thanks so much for sharing!

Though i do have a somewhat crazy theory regarding Adolin and Maya's revival. You know how the dead Radiant spren are supposed to have had their souls or essence ripped out as the original Radiant broke the bond? i'm thinking that when Adolin gets into yet another fight that he simply cannot win and gets all cut up to the point of death, he chooses, he chooses, to sacrifice himself to heal Maya, to let her take his life essence and become whole again, to bond with someone else more worthy - in his eyes - and continue fighting for the good of the world. And because he would then naturally use Maya herself to do the deed, his life force does go into her and restores her completely. And Maya's first act as a fully restored, sentient Radiant spren is to revive her human partner, the man who gave him his life so she could live again. 

I don't think it works that way. Spren can't really affect the physical realm themselves, and it's not life force she needs but a bond.

Edited July 24, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, goody153 said:

I mean Sanderson has sometimes answered questions that aren't really about the exact context target. Like this one about Harmony/Odium

The question you spoilered has two pieces. There's no part of the question that doesn't apply to one piece or the other. 

[Willow]

5 hours ago, RShara said:

In addition, by the end of Oathbringer, Lopen is a Second Oath Windrunner. He really can't be called "well on the way to Knighthood." He already is a Knight.

Ah, but a true knight has to have a sword, armor and a horse, don't they?

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/157-words-of-radiance-scottsdale-signing/#e2858

I think Brandon Sanderson was talking about Lopen when talking about the 'extremely well-adjusted character', by using him as an example, but I also think this definitely means Adolin's not blocked from the Radiant-club by the mechanics of the magic and the story, just because he lacks some vague 'broken-ness' factor.

Also, at what point can we describe a character as 'well on his way to Knighthood'? Was Kaladin  already well on his way to being a Knight Radiant during the flashbacks when we first saw Syl? In the slave wagons when they first talked? I figure that's a similar point Adolin's at now (though Adolin has the 'dead spren' problem).  I personally put Kaladin's 'actively on his way to being a Knight Radiant' point as somewhere near the end of the second book, just before the scene @goody153 describes, because that's when he really starts to move towards a greater ideal (even if it clashes with his immediate emotional reaction), and also when he gets a shardblade, but I don't think that's a universal opinion.

Adolin just in the finale of Oathbringer established a first connection with his dead spren (which is already very impressive and more than most people and spren in-world thought was possible) and now it's up to him to go further, help Maya somehow, and eventually become a Knight Radiant.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Willow

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Willow said:

Adolin just in the finale of Oathbringer established a first connection with his dead spren (which is already very impressive and more than most people and spren in-world thought was possible) and now it's up to him to go further, help Maya somehow, and eventually become a Knight Radiant.

This has been covered in a lot of other threads, so I'm going to keep it brief. 

Adolin, at his core, is a very similar character to lift priority wise. He fits what we know of Edgedancers exceptionally well. Unlike with every other budding Radiant (and yes, after that WoB I feel comfortable calling him that) he doesn't get to attract a spren and develop a relationship that the Spren guides him through. 

He has to fit the order well. Because if he didn't, Maya would still be silent. She's healing, and considering the source of that injury that should be impossible other than by having a bond restored to her. 

[Willow]

46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This has been covered in a lot of other threads, so I'm going to keep it brief. 

Adolin, at his core, is a very similar character to lift priority wise. He fits what we know of Edgedancers exceptionally well. Unlike with every other budding Radiant (and yes, after that WoB I feel comfortable calling him that) he doesn't get to attract a spren and develop a relationship that the Spren guides him through. 

He has to fit the order well. Because if he didn't, Maya would still be silent. She's healing, and considering the source of that injury that should be impossible other than by having a bond restored to her. 

Yes, I completely agree? He wouldn't be able to establish a bond with Maya if he didn't fit the Edgedancer order, and I believe that there is a bond he has with Maya that is different from a simple shardblade and shardbearer one. I just said that I believed that the 'well-adjusted character' mentioned in the WoB referred to Lopen, but that the WoB was still generally about the fact that Adolin was indeed not blocked from Knight Radianthood by some outside factor, in which case Maya talking would have just been a weird fluke (as some theories state - which I do not agree with).

But just like Kaladin's, Shallan's and Dalinar's (who also fit their personal orders quite well) struggles we see in the first three books, Adolin now has to live up these oaths to progress. And since Maya is a dead spren, it might be even more difficult for him, and he can run into obstacles the other characters didn't have to deal with.

My point was that while Maya and Adolin obviously had a connection for years, the first sign of Maya responding and the bond potentially progressing happened very closely to the end of the book, and that the intensity of this bond seems to me to be most similar to Kaladin and Syl's early bond in WoK.

So at what point can we say that Adolin (or any character) is 'well on their way to knighthood?' (not just 'on their way'. Well on their way) Is it when their spren arrives in the physical realm, when characters first talk to their spren, swear the first/second/third/fourth/fifth oath, or as soon as there is some progression? That was one of the discussion points raised in this thread. Is Lopen 'well on his way to Knighthood', or is he already there? Is Adolin 'well on his way' or has he only just made his first steps on the path? That was what I was trying to discuss, because it interests me, and it's a point Jasnah also raises to Shallan in part two of OB.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Willow

[Calderis he/him]

@Willow that's fair. I misunderstood you.

As to the distinction, in my mind at least, the line between the two is when you are bonded to a spren yourself. Lopen is no longer a squire, he's a Radiant. 

Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, Lift, Dalinar... He's are all special cases. They were the first to draw a spren and because of this they had to discover things on their own. Their paths are much harder, because they need to function as a Radiant without other Radiants to help them along the way. 

As to what Jasnah addresses to Shallan. There was a distinction there.

Quote

“Then maybe we can just call the wardship finished, eh?” Shallan said. “I mean, I’m a full Radiant now.”
“Radiant, yes,” Jasnah said. “Full? Where’s your armor?”

In my mind, Lopen became a Radiant the moment he no longer needed Kaladin for his surges.

So far, I think the only "full Radiant" is Jasnah. 

[Willow]

@Calderis, thanks for quoting that text, turns out I misremembered 'knight' instead of Radiant. I just really like the idea of a 'full knight' being one that has all three pieces of the knightly equipment (sword, armor, horse), and the use of knighthood in that WoB just seemed so distinct. On the other hand, by those standards, Jasnah and even Nale aren't full Knights Radiant either :). So maybe that's a bit too strict.

 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I'm gonna copy something I posted on Reddit because I do not want to have to write it up again.

 

Quote

I think his personality is a pretty good match [for the Edgedancers] actually. He defends a totally random prostitute in WoK, for one thing. He's the first person outside Bridge Four to openly believe Kaladin about Amaram, and goes to prison on Kaladin's behalf (even if he doesn't quite get that you usually don't get to wear fancy cologne in prison), he pays attention to Dalinar's Ryshadium when even Dalinar is too busy to. He's always there for his brother who gets ridiculed a lot.

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[cantabile21]

14 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think it works that way. Spren can't really affect the physical realm themselves, and it's not life force she needs but a bond.

Hehe, well i said it's a crazy theory. Heh!

i think spren actually can affect the physical realm, like Syl is able to do little tricks like stick things together, though i admit that Maya using Regrowth on her own to revive a dead Adolin is rather more advanced than that. That said, i've only ever read the Stormlight series and have no idea how death and the final journey of the soul works in the Cosmere, so this is just me and my imagination and my sense of the dramatic. (Other fantasy series have used this device to resurrect a freshly dead character - as the soul leaves the body and starts making its final journey to wherever they're supposed to go after death, something or someone intervenes and prevents it from crossing the final threshold. The soul then gets sent back into the body and the character lives again.)

Anyway, back to this world. As it stands, Maya's bond with Adolin is already pretty amazing, with her being a deadeye and all. She told him her name. She can't speak, but yet she's able to look out for Adolin and warn him of danger as he fights, much like how Syl looks out for Kaladin. She actually physically intervened when Adolin was in real danger of being killed in Shadesmar. She could appear as a Shardblade before the requisite ten heartbeats because she could sense Adolin's desperation, and she could 'see' that Adolin was again in real danger of getting killed. So, i guess we could say she is already well on the road to recovery and revival, and Adolin is therefore well on his way to Knighthood! 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

It's possible to intervene with somebody dying in the Cosmere, it happens with the Returned in Warbreaker, and in at least one other instance, but I don't think it's going to happen with Adolin and Maya.

He might 'try' something stupid and heroic like that, because he feels unworthy, but I think what would happen in that instance would be that she would object as hard as she can and that would be the catalyst for Adolin to swear the First Ideal. Or something like that.

[cantabile21]

6 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

He might 'try' something stupid and heroic like that, because he feels unworthy, but I think what would happen in that instance would be that she would object as hard as she can and that would be the catalyst for Adolin to swear the First Ideal. Or something like that.

Yup, i can see that happening too. 

[+robardin he/him]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Willow that's fair. I misunderstood you.

As to the distinction, in my mind at least, the line between the two is when you are bonded to a spren yourself. Lopen is no longer a squire, he's a Radiant. 

Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, Lift, Dalinar... He's are all special cases. They were the first to draw a spren and because of this they had to discover things on their own. Their paths are much harder, because they need to function as a Radiant without other Radiants to help them along the way. 

As to what Jasnah addresses to Shallan. There was a distinction there.

In my mind, Lopen became a Radiant the moment he no longer needed Kaladin for his surges.

So far, I think the only "full Radiant" is Jasnah. 

So, where's Jasnah's armor, per her own comment? I don't think she was portraying herself as a senior "full" Radiant, was she? Just pointing out that collectively, none of the Radiants in their cadre were advanced past the Third Ideal.

As for who is a "Radiant" vs. "Full Radiant", Kaladin himself (and Syl agreed with him) didn't think he counted as a Knight Radiant until he gained a Shardblade, with the Third Ideal, even though he could use both Windrunner Surges with just the First Ideal (just not as efficiently or as powerfully). Same with Teft, who gloriously arrives at Thaylen Fields with his Shardspear through the Oathgate as "Teft. Knight Radiant." But Lopen is ready to declare himself a "full Knight Radiant now" to Kaladin after his Second Ideal was accepted. And who's gonna call him out on that? (Well, I guess Jasnah.)

The Stormfather "accepts" Words, but he doesn't confer some kind of Radiant Diploma.

[Calderis he/him]

@robardin per the many discussions on Shardplate, I'm of the opinion that the shapes that Adolin saw around her in Thaylen city were her Shardplate fading.

So as I said. I think Jasnah is our only "Full Radiant." 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Calderis

[+robardin he/him]

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@robardin per the many discussions on Shardplate, I'm of the opinion that the shapes that Adolin saw around her in Thaylen city were her Shardplate fading.

So as I said. I think Jasnah is our only "Full Radiant." 

Hmm, that would make sense for Jasnah's comment.

That reminds me - Shallan's external projection of "Radiant" at Thaylen Fields (when she held hands with herself as both Veil and Radiant) appeared "in glowing garnet Shardplate", yet the other illusory Radiants she conjured up were without Plate (including Adolin as a Windrunner, which was an unintended stab in his heart). I found that interesting, since where would she have gotten that detail about Lightweaver Shardplate?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

That reminds me - Shallan's external projection of "Radiant" at Thaylen Fields (when she held hands with herself as both Veil and Radiant) appeared "in glowing garnet Shardplate", yet the other illusory Radiants she conjured up were without Plate (including Adolin as a Windrunner, which was an unintended stab in his heart). I found that interesting, since where would she have gotten that detail about Lightweaver Shardplate?

Considering the panic she feels when asked about Shardplate from Adolin, I think it's yet another suppressed memory. 

Quote

"What about Plate? Do you have that hidden somewhere too?”
“Not that I know of,” she said. Her heart was beating quickly, her skin growing cold, her muscles tense. She fought against the sensation. “I don’t know where Plate comes from.”

I think the only thing keeping her from the "Full Radiant" distinction is her own issues. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yeah I strongly suspect she actually did manifest Shardplate in that scene, but is being an dreadful unreliable narrator about it.

[Stark he/him]

On 7/17/2018 at 1:30 AM, CrazyRioter said:

Also Brandon has mplied there's other methods then brokenness such as maybe being "open" (or something like that) which might be how Lopen managed to bond a spren despite being apparently impervious to negative emotions.

A little late, but to be fair, most people might assume that Lopen is 'broken' after talking to him, if the responses people have to conversing with him are any indication.  I mean, most people would assume that a guy hugging the ground so it would not get jealous of him flying around is more than a little broken.  Just not the same type of broken as others, and not with what is generally considered to be negative emotional association.

 

There are many ways to break, and not all are negative.  And we have not even really touched on children.  How did both young Shallan and young Tien start to lure Patterns?  Children can be broken, of course, but they also tend to be a lot more resilient than adults and make their own realities (which must be fascinating to Cryptics).

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Was Syl starting to bond with Tien before he died?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, good question. But Tien was starting to bond a different spren.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I was suspecting that he was bonding a spren, but then Syl says, at one point, just as she was coming over *inaudible* so I was like, maybe!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Good question, but no, he was going in a different direction.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can you tell me...?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Lightweaver.

source

 

[Willow]

There's another interesting WoB that tells us something about the 'path to full radianthood' (emphasis mine):

Quote

Snote

Would you be willing to confirm if Skar is a proto-radiant (on the same level as The Lopen?)

It is implied by his statement of "We protect those who cannot protect themselves", which is obviously an affirmation of the oath, if not an outright swearing of it. I could see it being either/or. He's a good man that did what he thought the order, and he himself, wanted or he just became a radiant on the same level as Kaladin during the Battle of the Tower.

Thanks for your time. I understand if you can't/won't answer that at this time. It's simply a curiosity, so I get it if you're a bit too busy to answer.

Brandon Sanderson

By the end of Book Three, I'd put Skar very close to (though not quite at the level of) Lopen along the way toward full Radiant-hood.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e10419

Other than the fact that this suggests Skar has also attracted his own spren (?), it seems to say that Lopen, while on the way to Radianthood, is not a full Radiant yet. So a second-oath Windrunner is not considered a full Knight Radiant yet, and Jasnah doesn't accept Shallan at the fourth Oath as a full radiant either. Though Jasnah probably doesn't know exactly how many Truths Shallan has said, and seems to base Shallan's progression on her attainment of Shardblade/Shardplate.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Willow

[CrazyRioter she/her]

For the record Brandon has clarified his original statement on Reddit.

I think this is still very interesting, because he kind of implies there is more than one person on the path to Radianthood who isn't "broken". And it 's still a clear indication that any arguments about Adolin's brokeness are moot.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Considering the panic she feels when asked about Shardplate from Adolin, I think it's yet another suppressed memory. 

I think the only thing keeping her from the "Full Radiant" distinction is her own issues. 

That's basically what I suspect as well

Amazing that a child Shallan might have progressed to the Fourth Ideal or further

[Arraenae]

 

On 7/25/2018 at 8:07 AM, Stark said:

A little late, but to be fair, most people might assume that Lopen is 'broken' after talking to him, if the responses people have to conversing with him are any indication.  I mean, most people would assume that a guy hugging the ground so it would not get jealous of him flying around is more than a little broken.  Just not the same type of broken as others, and not with what is generally considered to be negative emotional association.

 

There are many ways to break, and not all are negative.  And we have not even really touched on children.  How did both young Shallan and young Tien start to lure Patterns?  Children can be broken, of course, but they also tend to be a lot more resilient than adults and make their own realities (which must be fascinating to Cryptics).

 

If being broken enough to have a Nahel Bond functions similarly to Snapping in Mistborn, then negative emotional states of mind aren't necessary at all. According to the epigraphs in HoA, Vin Snapped when she was born, but she clearly isn't traumatized by her birth itself.

[Calderis he/him]

52 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

 

If being broken enough to have a Nahel Bond functions similarly to Snapping in Mistborn, then negative emotional states of mind aren't necessary at all. According to the epigraphs in HoA, Vin Snapped when she was born, but she clearly isn't traumatized by her birth itself.

That's exactly the opposite of what it means. It means the overwhelming fear and pain that she experienced during birth was enough to snap her without any "lasting" emotional effects. 

The annotations also say it's possible to snap from extreme joy. 

It's purely emotional, and does not require lasting psychological effects. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm of the opinion that the issue which the brokenness circumvents is access.  A nahel bond requires a sort of soul-melding of a spren and a human.  Almost like a nicer and less destructive version of hemalurgy.

The hard part is "breaking the ice" between the human and the spren as it were.  Spren are largely in the cognitive realm, and humans are largely in the physical, with relatively little ability to interact with one another.  A human having a broken spirit-web somehow makes it easier for a spren to initiate contact with them and start the formation of a nahel bond.

I do think there are alternate ways around this roadblock though.  Notably I think once a Radiant achieves a true bond with their spren, their squires in turn somehow become more "available" to bond a spren, similarly I think friends and family who are especially close to the Radiant are similarly effective.  It's almost like the Radiant/spren's bonded soul becomes a beacon to light the way to further humans for spren to bond with .  I think this helps explain why new Radiants seem to cluster together amongst squires or families of existing Radiants.