[OB] Surges destroying a world

[Lightspine]

Oathbringer answered a surprisingly large number of questions regarding the history of Roshar, confirming theories about the Heralds, and actually telling us what made the Knights Radiant abandon their oaths. I wasn't expecting this at all and was actually almost dissatisfied, like, "that's it?" since we pretty much already knew that humans were *not* native to Roshar. However, we did learn something new and there's still a very large mystery to be answered. This mystery of course, is that surgebinding somehow destroyed a planet: Ashyn (yes, it was Ashyn, source here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243 ). 
First of all, the new thing: humans brought Odium to Roshar. This point was a bit fuzzy to me at first though, I thought that the references to their god being the "Void" were references to Honor, since Odium had claimed earlier that Honor lacked emotion and passion. However, Syl seems to tell Kaladin that the Void is Odium, not Honor, and that humankind were originally of Odium. This lines up nicely if you subscribe to the theory that Dawnsingers were Listeners who could held forms granted by Honor, before the spren "betrayed them." It also lines up with WoB that Odium arrived after Honor and Cultivation. With this knowledge, here is my general idea of the initial events on Roshar:
Humans arrive, traveling through Shadesmar or some other method, at Shinovar. Perhaps this involved Odium creating a perpendicularity there (temporarily?), leading to his entrance into Roshar. The humans make an agreement with Honor, Cultivation, and the Listeners in order to inhabit Shinovar. Odium, however, wants to grab power on this planet and decides that the best way to do it is to incite the humans to try and conquer the world. Odium likely aided mankind in taking over Roshar, using this to create a force he could control even more easily: the Fused. Because of their hatred towards mankind for breaking their promises, and the way that Listeners change forms, Odium found it advantageous to switch sides and convert the Listeners into his army. At this point, Honor would then have sided with Humans - the "betrayal" of the Listeners - in order to oppose Odium.
Now then, for the mystery, how was Ashyn destroyed? The Eila Stelle mentions surges, and bonds to spren, but this means it involved bonds to Odium's spren, and we have no real idea of how that would function in Ashyn. On Roshar, humans need to ingest a gemheart in order to hold surges granted by Odium (Amaram's forces on the battle of Thaylen City were bonded to Odiumspren without gemhearts, but they didn't gain any powers from this bond, unlike Amaram, who bonded Yelig Nar, and the Queen, although her precise powers weren't really displayed. The exception is Renarin, but his spren is rebelling against Odium and he seems to be using a Nahel bond and uses Stormlight: his powers derive from Honor's investure even though his spren is of Odium.) but gems being a focus for magic is specific to the planet of Roshar, so this type of interaction would be very different in Ashyn. Currently, people on Ashyn gain abilities by contracting diseases. To me, this makes sense if the disease is seen as a form of parasitic symbiosis, and compare how this works with bonds on Roshar. Nahel bonds are mutualistic symbiosis, Listener bonds are either mutualism or commensalism (uncertain what the spren in the gemheart gains), while the Fused and the Regals seem to be a form of parasitism, with the Listener being forced to comply with Odium or being destroyed completely. Parasitism is a trait of both Odium's bonds in Roshar and the magical interactions of Ashyn. Perhaps Ashyn's current magic system was created when Odium's spren left the planet, leading to diseases somehow taking their place in the magic system. 
None of this, however, seems to describe how an entire world could be destroyed. The only theories I've seen floating around about this seem to be that the Dawnshards were employed somehow. For this, think for a moment of Amaram and Aesudan. What type of symbiosis did they have?? Amaram's mind was preserved, and we don't know his perspective so we don't know if Yelig Nar took control of him in any way (beyond transforming his body). Aesudan, however, seems really odd. She claims "Yelig-nar serves me" - implying that it is a parasitism, but that Aesudan is the parasite. (Of course Aesudan may just have been misled and falsely believed she was in command. Also how is Yelig-nar trapped in both Amaram and Aesudan at the same time? Or is Aesudan no longer holding that power, at the time of the battle at Thaylen City?). If it is true that the parasitic nature of bonds drawing from Odium can work with the human as the parasite, and the Dawnshards are capable of "binding anything," then perhaps the Dawnshards were used to bind the very mind/soul of Ashyn. The planet itself must have a cognitive representation in Shadesmar, and the planet itself is certainly Invested. If it could be bound, through Dawnshard, into some form of parasitism were Humans drew on this investure, perhaps this could have rendered the planet uninhabitable.
Okay that's it for my crazy theory. Have fun picking it apart or completely demolishing it I won't mind. If there are any WoB's I've missed on this subject please enlighten me haha. Thanks for reading this giant thingy.

[Yvainnie she/her]

So couple things wrong with this theory but nice comment that humans brought Odium to Roshar. even though I read it it never occured me that their surgebinding could not be with Honor since they brought Void which is certainly Odium (hence Voidlight.

Dawnsingers were Listeners. It is not theroy is is specifically said so in OB.

But their form did not have to be granted by Honor there are a lot of spren that are from Cultivation or may be predating both.

If is was Odium who switched sides of humas and Listeners, it is not specifically.

On Roshar humans do not need to ingest gemheart in order to access surges from Odium. They need it only to access power from Yelig-nar. And he is not in both queen and Amaram but furt in the queen and then Amaram afterer she dies. 

Renarin does not have spren "rebeling againts Odium" he has spren from either Cultivation or Honor which has been corrupted by one of the Unmade. 

As for Yelig-nar serving the queen it could be just her ego talking.

And I dont see how or why "planet itself MUST HAVE a cognitive representation in Shadesmar" ?

 

[Weltall]

7 hours ago, Lightspine said:

First of all, the new thing: humans brought Odium to Roshar.

Brandon has said that while this is what the singers assumed, it may not actually be the case, He arrived on Roshar after humans did and they gave him more of an ear than the singers, so it was assumed he was their god. He may have been indirectly involved on Ashyn without being actively worshipped by the humans living there before they caused a cataclysm.

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Humans arrive, traveling through Shadesmar or some other method, at Shinovar. Perhaps this involved Odium creating a perpendicularity there (temporarily?), leading to his entrance into Roshar.

Brandon had something very interesting to say on this point. While he hasn't canonized it yet, his current idea is that they did not use the Cognitive Realm or Physical space travel but something similar to how Oathgates work, involving travel via the Spiritual Realm. Make of that what you will. xD

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The humans make an agreement with Honor, Cultivation, and the Listeners in order to inhabit Shinovar. Odium, however, wants to grab power on this planet and decides that the best way to do it is to incite the humans to try and conquer the world. Odium likely aided mankind in taking over Roshar, using this to create a force he could control even more easily: the Fused.

It's less that Odium wants power on the planet and more that he wants Honor and Cultivation dead, but the general idea checks out. Brandon has said that Odium ordered his hit list by personal danger and by Shards he could claim were violating whatever agreement the Vessels made. Hence, Ambition was on the top of the list because he felt she was the biggest threat and he likely would have gone after Scadrial next because of the presence of two Shards had he not gotten stuck on Roshar, unless there's some other Shard he considered personally dangerous that was higher up the list.

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The exception is Renarin, but his spren is rebelling against Odium and he seems to be using a Nahel bond and uses Stormlight: his powers derive from Honor's investure even though his spren is of Odium.) but gems being a focus for magic is specific to the planet of Roshar, so this type of interaction would be very different in Ashyn.

As mentioned, his spren is 'of Honor/Cultivation' but has been corrupted by Sja-anat. We have evidence from the Gem Archive that at least one other Truthwatcher had something similar happen, at a time when it would have been even harder to hide this since there were many Radiants back then and they'd all know what a Truthwatcher and their spren are supposed to be like. Somehow, this unknown Radiant managed it.

Anyhow, it's very likely (if not yet canonized by Brandon) that the focus for the entire Rosharan System is bonds. We know they predated the arrival of the Shards (long-ish WoB here) and are responsible for things like chasmfiends being able to exist at all, they're responsible for the singer/listener forms and eventually they became responsible for human Surgebinding via the Nahel Bond. You can extend this to Ashyn too, with humans forming a symbiotic bond where the bacteria get a host that will pass it on and the human gets magic and an incentive to stay sick. Gems aren't really a focus of magic, they're just a convenient way of containing stormlight and spren. We know the Heralds had no need for gems because they could draw power directly from Honor for example, and Lift is definitely a weird case but she doesn't even need Stormlight directly. Yet she still has Surgebinding, because it's the bond that's important.

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Of course Aesudan may just have been misled and falsely believed she was in command. Also how is Yelig-nar trapped in both Amaram and Aesudan at the same time? Or is Aesudan no longer holding that power, at the time of the battle at Thaylen City?

Aesudan was very definitely overestimating her control over Yelig-nar. Odium even tells Amaram when handing him the gemstone that the queen was unable to control the power and it consumed her. In other words, she's dead and Yelig-nar is looking for a new host by the time the battle at Thaylen City happens.

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The planet itself must have a cognitive representation in Shadesmar, and the planet itself is certainly Invested. If it could be bound, through Dawnshard, into some form of parasitism were Humans drew on this investure, perhaps this could have rendered the planet uninhabitable.

Planets all have Cognitive Representations as long as they're inhabited by any form of life, or they're being thought about. Brandon has said that there are 'souls' to planets but that doesn't mean that humans could necessarily affect them in a meaningful way. Khriss has some comments on this in the essay on the Selish System vis a vis that planet being unusual. Given what we've seen of Ashyn (not strictly canonical but the relevant bits are supported by Arcanum Unbounded) it sounds like humans destroyed the ecosystem with some form of the Surges, which is why most fled and others now live on floating cities above the uninhabitable surface. Sounds a lot like they're using Gravitation, both in the 'how could you mess things up that badly?' sense and in the 'how could you make these cities work?' sense.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Weltall

[Yvainnie she/her]

Well said @Weltall but I have a question about this:

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Hence, Ambition was on the top of the list because he felt she was the biggest threat and he likely would have gone after Scadrial next because of the presence of two Shards had he not gotten stuck on Roshar, unless there's some other Shard he considered personally dangerous that was higher up the list.

Is there a WoB he was after Ambition? I missed it somehow, please if you would be so kind and link it?

and this WoB said he is scared of Harmony:

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Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

So why would he try to kill him?

[Weltall]

6 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

Is there a WoB he was after Ambition? I missed it somehow, please if you would be so kind and link it?

Here's where Brandon said that Ambition was on the top of the list (but actually the third killed):

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Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

source

 

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and this WoB said he is scared of Harmony:

So why would he try to kill him?

We don't actually know that Odium is currently doing anything about Harmony, but he would almost certainly be on the top of the revised post-Roshar list due to his power. Also, while Harmony has far more raw power than Odium, we have multiple WoBs that this isn't going to deter Odium. Rayse has held his Shard for something on the order of ten thousand years based on what Brandon's said about the timeline while Sazed has only held his power for three hundred. He's more knowledgable, he's more skilled and he's far more willing and able to use his power.

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Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

source

 

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Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's off-world, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge.

source

 

[Yvainnie she/her]

3 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Here's where Brandon said that Ambition was on the top of the list (but actually the third killed):

 

We don't actually know that Odium is currently doing anything about Harmony, but he would almost certainly be on the top of the revised post-Roshar list due to his power. Also, while Harmony has far more raw power than Odium, we have multiple WoBs that this isn't going to deter Odium. Rayse has held his Shard for something on the order of ten thousand years based on what Brandon's said about the timeline while Sazed has only held his power for three hundred. He's more knowledgable, he's more skilled and he's far more willing and able to use his power.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying but one more question. Ambitiion is splintered? Where and how? Do we have WoB or something?

 

[Weltall]

Arcanum Unbounded's essay on the Threnodite System (where Shadows for Silence takes place) was where we first learned about Ambition and how she and Odium fought.

Oathbringer mentions this when the first of the letters in the epigraphs mentions that Uli Da was always going to be a problem and they're better off without her, in the context of Odium's actions. This was confirmed to be the name of Ambition's Vessel via WoB. Relatedly, another WoB reveals that she was a Sho Del, the third sapient race of Yolen with the others being humans and dragons.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Weltall

[Lightspine]

8 hours ago, Yvainnie said:

On Roshar humans do not need to ingest gemheart in order to access surges from Odium. They need it only to access power from Yelig-nar. And he is not in both queen and Amaram but furt in the queen and then Amaram afterer she dies.

Wait Aesudan died? Whoops i wasn't aware. I thought she was still alive haha, I missed the quote that Weltall pointed out which claimed she was dead.

Thanks for posting so much WoBs @Weltall haha, it's been a while since i came on here so i missed a lot.

As for not needing to ingest a gemheart, I just assumed that it was needed but the examples we've seen are pretty limited. We haven't seen any Humans gaining surge-powers by bonding an odiumspren other than Yelig-nar yet, so I'd say this is uncertain? Unless you had a WoB on it which I don't know of.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Lightspine
Forgot to add stuff

[teknopathetic he/him]

We also have the Shattered Plains. Likely the Surges caused that, and that little whoops pushed people to abandon their oaths. 

[ZenBossanova]

I have my suspicions that Skybreaker surges were behind the Scouring of Aimia as well, and that is the most recent. 

[Gasper he/him]

The Surge most likely to cause a world to be uninhabitable is either transformation or division. Those two have the most destructive powers in terms of efficiency.

[DocHoliday he/him]

On 5/15/2018 at 11:39 PM, Gasper said:

The Surge most likely to cause a world to be uninhabitable is either transformation or division. Those two have the most destructive powers in terms of efficiency.

I can very easily see Gravity gone awry contributing. No-one said it was one Surge, every reference is to the Surges.

[Kokotheworm]

 I thought that prior to the Nahel Bond Human didn't have access to the Surge. That the Shards on Roshar didn't intend for the surge to be usable . Did the Human who came to Roshar used Fabrial? 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Kokotheworm

[RShara she/her]

5 minutes ago, Kokotheworm said:

 I thought that prior to the Nahel Bond Human didn't have access to the Surge. That the Shards on Roshar didn't intend for the surge to be usable . Did the Human who came to Roshar used Fabrial? 

Ashyn's magic is disease based. But from the view of an outsider, it would seem to be the same as surges, if the outsider only knew of magic via surges. From the Silence Divine reading, people can float, change objects, and so forth, which are very similar to the surges of Gravitation and Transformation.

My theory is that the disease functions like a low level spren. When the human is infected or bonded with the disease, it gives them something similar to a surge, until they recover and the bond dissolves.

 

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Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

 

[Kokotheworm]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

Ashyn's magic is disease based. But from the view of an outsider, it would seem to be the same as surges, if the outsider only knew of magic via surges. From the Silence Divine reading, people can float, change objects, and so forth, which are very similar to the surges of Gravitation and Transformation.

My theory is that the disease functions like a low level spren. When the human is infected or bonded with the disease, it gives them something similar to a surge, until they recover and the bond dissolves.

 

 

I though the human refugee were using either Fabrial or the magic of Odium to burn away their first world. It tied with what I thought about them being the human Odium made,and worshiped, and through his intent/shard , which seem to be pure passion/feeling with hatred dominating, ending up using the surge to destroy their world. 
Now I am not so sure, the Storm-father says human were first of Odium then of Honor. Do we know were they originated in the first place?

 

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, Kokotheworm said:

I though the human refugee were using either Fabrial or the magic of Odium to burn away their first world. It tied with what I thought about them being the human Odium made,and worshiped, and through his intent/shard , which seem to be pure passion/feeling with hatred dominating, ending up using the surge to destroy their world. 
Now I am not so sure, the Storm-father says human were first of Odium then of Honor. Do we know were they originated in the first place?

 

They really weren't "of" Odium. I think that Odium went there and meddled with them, possibly enpowered some of them, and that led to them destroying their world, but the humans in general didn't worship him.

Have you read the text of the Silence Divine reading? It takes place on Ashyn sometime after the cataclysm. You can find it in the Unpublished forum.

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Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

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Lirins hand

On Roshar, do the humans predate the two Shards coming there, or did they come with the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

The humans were...not created by Honor, Cultivation or Odium.

source

 

[Kokotheworm]

I did not, yet , read that. Thanks, this put one of my other reply into more context.
In one of your quote though it appear the human who came to Roshar are either the product of another shard or an offshoot of humanity but that they encountered Odium after coming to Roshar.

Was it there that he interfered with the religion , introducing the "Passion" into human of Roshar ? 

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

23 hours ago, Kokotheworm said:

I did not, yet , read that. Thanks, this put one of my other reply into more context.
In one of your quote though it appear the human who came to Roshar are either the product of another shard or an offshoot of humanity but that they encountered Odium after coming to Roshar.

Was it there that he interfered with the religion , introducing the "Passion" into human of Roshar ? 

 

We still don't know a whole lot of the pre-Desolation Cycle history of the Rosharan system. Personally though, I don't think the Ashyn humans were ever directly "of Odium" in the same way that Scadrians are "of Ruin and Preservation." That was, presumably, before Odium got trapped in the Rosharan system, so why would he have completely taken control of a population? He specifically didn't want to Invest himself anywhere, and that would go against that. However, I do think he was fundamental in the cataclysm on Ashyn and the event she leading up to the human invasion of Roshar from Shinovar. How much is unclear at this point. I don't think the humans ever directly worshipped Odium, but I doubt it looked that way from the Dawnsingers' perspectives. 

[RShara she/her]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:59 PM, Kokotheworm said:

I did not, yet , read that. Thanks, this put one of my other reply into more context.
In one of your quote though it appear the human who came to Roshar are either the product of another shard or an offshoot of humanity but that they encountered Odium after coming to Roshar.

Was it there that he interfered with the religion , introducing the "Passion" into human of Roshar ? 

 

The Passions are just a religion. And Odium isn't Passion, darn it.

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Questioner

Navani’s emotion fabrial, are those correspondent to the Thaylen Passions in any way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the Thaylen Passions would’ve come second to some of this.

Questioner

So through a cultural filter?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There is no magic to the Thaylen Passions, they are a religion but with no magical component. Sometimes a religion is just a religion.

source

 

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Millennium

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

 

[Weltall]

To add to what @RShara said, we also know that Odium was originally going to be named Hatred. Between that, the WoB about how the names are more or less intrinsic to the Shards and Rayse not being entirely honest with himself about being 'Passion' and with Frost callimg him 'God's divine hatred' I think we can more or less close the book on it.

That said, the WoB about the Thaylen Passions having no magical component predates Oathbringer and doesn't rule out that the religion itself may have been inspired by ancient human contact with Odium, even if it has no actual Investiture angle. I don't think that interpretation contradicts what Brandon said and what we know of the Passions does align with something Leshwi says in Oathbringer

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Yalb in The Way of Kings:

"Don't know much blustering math...But I do know the Passions. You win when you need it most, you see."

Leshwi in Oathbringer:

"You have given him your pain. He will return it, human, when you need it."

We know that a common expression of the Passions is to wear a charm associated with a particular emotion as a reminder. One of the guards in Rysn's interlude in Words of Radiance wears one associated with Courage and later she swears by 'Craving, Passion of need' when she's in the middle of doing something spectacularly foolish. Might be this whole idea came out of a memory of Odium who apparently can take your emotions from you, then return them at an appropriate moment.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

17 minutes ago, Weltall said:

To add to what @RShara said, we also know that Odium was originally going to be named Hatred. Between that, the WoB about how the names are more or less intrinsic to the Shards and Rayse not being entirely honest with himself about being 'Passion' and with Frost callimg him 'God's divine hatred' I think we can more or less close the book on it.

I don't think that completely disproves the Passion theory. Just because Odium was originally gonna be called Hatred doesn't mean that the true intent can't be Passion. I support the theory that the true intent of Rayse's Shard is Passion and that he (whether subconsciously or consciously) filters it to be Odium, an aspect of Passion. Frost's statement would still be true, because Odium/Hatred would still be part of Passion, but I don't think that's all there is to it.

I could be completely wrong though. I can see the argument for both sides of the Odium v. Passion argument, but I tend to lean more towards Passion. Odium just feels too narrow for a Shardic intent, especially considering the description that Dalinar gives when he sees what Odium is, like how previous descriptions of Preservation and Ruin have been given.

[Kokotheworm]

On 16/07/2018 at 6:47 PM, RShara said:

The Passions are just a religion. And Odium isn't Passion, darn it.

 

 

I meant it as a cultural thing, both the religion and the way other reference it especially the people of Kholinar in oathbringer.  I don't necessarily advocate that Odium shard his passion, though the fact that some of his unmade influence through those do point to a link, hatred is a passion perhaps the strongest one, since it overwhelm all other.

[Magpro]

When Humans came to Roshar, they initially settled in Shinovar. Due to human ambition some faction left Shinovar and started conquring other parts of Roshar. I believe there was a first major war. Odium probably saw his chance to incite the singers's Dead Leaders and created fused. I don't think they had void binding at the time, and this started the first desolations. Either during or at the end of first desolation Oathpact was formed, to keep the fused in Braise. Oathpact created the Heralds. Radiants didn't come for many desolation later when spren started mimicing the honor blades.

 

Also Dawnshards were used to destroy Tranquiline Halls (Ashyn). This is stated by Stormfather in Chapter 113 of Oathbringer

Edited July 19, 2018 by Magpro