[OB] Jasnah's "lunacy"

[supersmith]

So as I was re-reading oathbringer I noticed some weird stuff about Jasnah. 

Spoiler

In I think Jasnah's first PoV, we hear some weird stuff about her as a child.

Quote

Jasnah settled back, listening to the three spanreeds scratching paper, writing notes--she feared--would mostly be irrelevant. Something stirred deep within her. Glimmers of a memory from a dark room, screaming her voice ragged. A childhood illness nobody else seemed to remember, for all it had done to her.  

It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her.  

And then a little later in a Dalinar flashback:

Quote

"It's your daughter," Dalinar guessed "her lunacy." "Jasnah is doing fine, and recovering." "It's not about that." Gavilar said. 

 

From this I'm thinking that while Jasnah was still young (maybe 3-4 because Navini said somewhere that when she was really young she was already super smart--also remember that a year there is around 500 days so a 4 year old there would be roughly 6 here) she bonded Ivory, probably only saying the first ideal. Gavilar noticed and that's what got him started with the whole 'bringing back honor and radiants' stuff. Someone else noticed, maybe Navini and thought she was crazy, so she put her in the asylum. But I'm a little confused why nobody would remember it. Seems like something people would remember. 

Tell me what you guys think about it. And yes I know that this will probably all be answered in Jasnah's book, but that's still like 8 years off. 

[Leyrann]

A Roshar year is indeed 500 days, but Roshar days last shorter than Earth days. To be precise, a Roshar year is 1.1 times longer than an Earth year. (from that, we calculated that a Roshar day is just under 20 Earth hours)

Anyways, there's a bunch of theories about this, I actually kind of doubt she bonded Ivory this long ago, considering in the WoR prologue she seems to meet him for basically the first time.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, supersmith said:

So as I was re-reading oathbringer I noticed some weird stuff about Jasnah. 

  Hide contents

In I think Jasnah's first PoV, we hear some weird stuff about her as a child.

And then a little later in a Dalinar flashback:

 

From this I'm thinking that while Jasnah was still young (maybe 3-4 because Navini said somewhere that when she was really young she was already super smart--also remember that a year there is around 500 days so a 4 year old there would be roughly 6 here) she bonded Ivory, probably only saying the first ideal. Gavilar noticed and that's what got him started with the whole 'bringing back honor and radiants' stuff. Someone else noticed, maybe Navini and thought she was crazy, so she put her in the asylum. But I'm a little confused why nobody would remember it. Seems like something people would remember. 

Tell me what you guys think about it. And yes I know that this will probably all be answered in Jasnah's book, but that's still like 8 years off. 

We see Jasnah's first interaction with Ivory in the WoR prologue, and that was the night her father died.

[Philomath]

While I think it is a possibility she bonded Ivory as a child I feel like it would be too much like Shallan. One character who bonded a spren then reperessed or forgot it is enough I think. 

I imagine that no one remembers Jasnah's "illness" may be because it wasn't very common knowledge. It seems like something people would have wanted to keep quiet. And then as she grew older, she was obviously very intelligent and capable, so why would people think of or remember a supposed illness they knew little about. Even Navani might ignore it because of how Jasnah currently is. 

I'm not sure what the illness may have been, but I hope we get more hints and clues before her book comes out. 

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, Philomath said:

I'm not sure what the illness may have been, but I hope we get more hints and clues before her book comes out. 

I'd hope we figure it out before that... She's scheduled for book 10.

[Philomath]

Just another thought. And someone correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't there some evidence or speculation that Jasnah may have been abused as a child? Is it possible that she tried to tell people about it but everyone thought she was crazy. And Jasnah feeling like she does about the truth would stick to her guns so people continue to think she is either making things up or is losing it. So she gets locked up. 

[thegatorgirl00]

I completely agree with the dark room being "treatment" for her illness. In WoR we're told that dark, quiet rooms are considered the best way to treat the insane. 

I think people don't talk about it because to them, it wasn't a big deal. A young girl gets sick, is treated, and grows into a well-adjusted adult. Her illness might be mental instead of physical, but it's otherwise entirely unremarkable. Lots of children get sick. The only person who would know it's anything more than that would be Jasnah, and why would the adults listen to her? 

[Toaster Retribution]

The real interesting thing is that those she loved hurt her. Who exactly, is the guilty one? I don't think Dalinar is the culprit, not here. For one, we would know from his flashbacks, and two, she seems to have always loved him. I guess Gavilar and/or Navani are the ones to blame here, because they are the only ones I can think of, besides Dalinar. Maybe the fact that they locked her up was what hurt her, but it would be interesting if there was something more.

[supersmith]

2 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

 

I think people don't talk about it because to them, it wasn't a big deal. A young girl gets sick, is treated, and grows into a well-adjusted adult. Her illness might be mental instead of physical, but it's otherwise entirely unremarkable. Lots of children get sick. The only person who would know it's anything more than that would be Jasnah, and why would the adults listen to her? 

By she specifically says that nobody remembers even though it seemingly lasted for a while. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by supersmith
Grammar

[thegatorgirl00]

41 minutes ago, supersmith said:

By she specifically says that nobody remembers even though it seemingly lasted for a while. 

She says no one seems to remember. My point was that this super significant event in her life is just kind of mundane to everyone else. Not worth remarking on. Especially if they didn't know how much it affected her. Or if she reacted badly to someone bringing it up to her in the past, which wouldn't surprise me with Jasnah's personality. 

I suppose there could be some magically way for it to have been erased from everyone's memories, but I doubt it. Partially because something similar, but inverted, was already done with Dalinar's memories. And partially because I think it would be kind of difficult to erase a single memory from lots of people with realmatics. I'm not a realmatics expert, though, and I could be wrong on that. 

[Subvisual Haze]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

We see Jasnah's first interaction with Ivory in the WoR prologue, and that was the night her father died.

First time they formally met yes, but a lot of our spren have been having subtle effects on the future Radiants well before they are formally introduced.  I think this part is significant in Jasnah's WoR flashback:

Quote

Her shadow was pointing in the wrong direction.

The stuffy, shuffling, chattering room seemed to grow distant.  Highprince Sadeas walked right through the shadow, which quite distinctly pointed toward the sphere lamp nearby.  Engaged in conversation with his companion, Sadeas didn't notice.  Jasnah stared at that shadow - skin growing clammy, stomach clenched, the way she felt when she was about to vomit.  Not Again.

....

What did these episodes of her mean?  Superstitious folktales she'd read said that misbehaving shadows meant you were cursed.  She usually dismissed such things as nonsense, but some superstitions were rooted in fact.  Her other experiences proved that.

I think Jasnah has had similar weird episodes like this before, likely as a child.  I imagine she was honest and trusting and told someone about her experiences and they responded by declaring her crazy/possessed and throwing her in the Rosharian equivalent of a padded room.  I think that sort of experience would go a long way towards explaining Jasnah's dislike of organized religion (as the Ardents would have been responsible for "treating" her madness), and her current tendency to keep her thoughts and feelings very guarded around others.  She's been burned before

[Wandering Investor]

5 hours ago, Philomath said:

But isn't there some evidence or speculation that Jasnah may have been abused as a child?

Navani mentions that Gavilar was not the best husband, but it is never, to my knowledge, indicated that he was a bad father. But I think that is the source of the bad father speculation.

[Angsos]

The scene with the thugs in Carbranth is where the speculation comes because she seems rather vehement about those men. At least in the audio version it sounded like it was much more than merely dislike of criminals

[Philomath]

5 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Navani mentions that Gavilar was not the best husband, but it is never, to my knowledge, indicated that he was a bad father. But I think that is the source of the bad father speculation.

Okay. Thank you. I think it must have been that paired with the line about people she loved being able to hurt her that made me think that. That being said, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone other than Gavilar could have done something. 

@Subvisual Haze You might have a point as well. The scene in WoR is not the first time she has experienced strange things due to Ivory. Just the first time she had encountered him directly. Similarly, Syl had been following Kaladin, playing tricks on him for a little while before they ever spoke, let alone before he said the first oath. All your thoughts even tying it to the childhood illness are quite plausible. 

[RShara]

40 minutes ago, Philomath said:

Okay. Thank you. I think it must have been that paired with the line about people she loved being able to hurt her that made me think that. That being said, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone other than Gavilar could have done something. 

@Subvisual Haze You might have a point as well. The scene in WoR is not the first time she has experienced strange things due to Ivory. Just the first time she had encountered him directly. Similarly, Syl had been following Kaladin, playing tricks on him for a little while before they ever spoke, let alone before he said the first oath. All your thoughts even tying it to the childhood illness are quite plausible. 

Yes, but Syl had been hanging around Kal for maybe a few months.  I don't think those experiences would predate the actual meeting by very much.

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Angsos said:

The scene with the thugs in Carbranth is where the speculation comes because she seems rather vehement about those men. At least in the audio version it sounded like it was much more than merely dislike of criminals

I think her hatred of those men comes from her history with Amaram. In OB, being around him makes her angry and lose her self-control. It's the only time we see her act close to how she acted in the alley. We know they have some kind of history together. 

[Leyrann]

11 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The real interesting thing is that those she loved hurt her. Who exactly, is the guilty one? I don't think Dalinar is the culprit, not here. For one, we would know from his flashbacks, and two, she seems to have always loved him. I guess Gavilar and/or Navani are the ones to blame here, because they are the only ones I can think of, besides Dalinar. Maybe the fact that they locked her up was what hurt her, but it would be interesting if there was something more.

That's incorect wording, actually. It's specifically stated that "those who loved her could still hurt her". Which makes me think those people thought they were doing the right thing, which in turn makes the "locked up for assumed to be insane" more likely.

[Angsos]

I guess that makes sense about amaram and now she has Rock to thank.

Going with the Ivory thing which seems more likely because of the amaram explanation. What if she was going to bond Ivory young but rather than just do it like Shallan, Jasnah told someone. That explanation was heard or overheard by someone who knew enough to realize it linked to the evil Radiants. She was locked away until she 'saw the light' and then was set free.

[Vissy]

I just feel like Jasnah had some sort of mental illness OR she was abused as a child, and then as a result of poor parenting she grew even more distant from her parents. Apparently only Dalinar and Renarin, especially the latter, ever managed to get closer to the real Jasnah. 

[Leyrann]

I do think abuse may have been involved, but it will have been through neglect and without ill will because of what I mentioned just before, that people who loved her had hurt her.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Leyrann

[Iarwainiel I]

I also felt that her reaction to the thugs in Kharbranth indicated that she'd suffered some type of abuse from "men."

With the ideas from this thread, I wonder if it was something like this:

She had some kind of episode as a young child (perhaps re: proto-radiant); Gavilar & Navani sought to "protect her" by having her committed to the royal asylum which, (I think) we know from Taln's situation in WoR, is inside the ardents' monastery; they put her in a dark room where she "scream[ed] her voice ragged" and perhaps suffered some kind of physical abuse. What happened to her inside the asylum would have been invisible to her family - they might never have known how she was treated; if she tried to tell them, the ardents might have lied to cover it up. Amaram might have been in on the cover-up, or at least have failed to believe her - IIRC he was considerably older than Jasnah. Think how that would have hurt her: she tried to confide in "Daddy's friend," only to have him not take her seriously. If it was me, I'm not sure I could ever forgive him, but I'm kinda hard-hearted sad to say.

I can imagine that Brandon would write something like this because we see it happen in the real world, for example, to the elderly or to people with developmental challenges. It seems like the kind of issue that he might want to say something about, and do so by working it into one of his characters' backstories.

[Vissy]

Yeah. It's shocking how easily those who can't always take care of themselves get taken advantage of, and that might be a part of why Jasnah is so adamant in always appearing self-assured and in control. Now obviously I'm way off in theoryland at this point xD but it does kind of make sense.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Vissy

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Well it seems Daddy G knew a bit about radiants, memba Gavilars meating with Eshoni where he said something like: we used to be radiant and your people were vibrant..

What if Daddy G "imprisoned" Jasna in a horrible room without light to break her a little so she would be cracked enough to form a Nahel bond and he spread rumors about her "lunacy" so if she was caught talking to her "imaginary friend" it wouldnt raise to many eyebrows..?

!~ HIF ~!

[Llarimar]

On 4/12/2018 at 0:29 PM, Philomath said:

I imagine that no one remembers Jasnah's "illness" may be because it wasn't very common knowledge. It seems like something people would have wanted to keep quiet. And then as she grew older, she was obviously very intelligent and capable, so why would people think of or remember a supposed illness they knew little about. Even Navani might ignore it because of how Jasnah currently is.

On 4/12/2018 at 4:25 PM, thegatorgirl00 said:

She says no one seems to remember. My point was that this super significant event in her life is just kind of mundane to everyone else. Not worth remarking on. Especially if they didn't know how much it affected her.

While it's possible that nobody mentions Jasnah's illness just because it's mundane, common knowledge that they would rather not talk about, I don't the situation is quite as simple as that.  Whenever the illness was mentioned in the book, it seemed to me that there was some sort of darker undertone - something disturbing or surprising about the events surrounding her illness, something that people want to keep a secret and not just forget.  I don't think that Navani and the others ignore her illness, but that for other reasons we don't understand yet, it cannot be discussed - the wounds are too deep, or Navani or Gavilar did something terrible, or for some reason they actually don't remember because their memories have been corrupted or something like that - whatever it is, the bottom line is that I think the reason why her illness is not discussed is definitely more complicated than "it's just common knowledge."  

The only thing that makes me rethink this is when Dalinar says "You'r daughter's lunacy?" and Gavilar says "No, she's recovering."  That exchange seems very unguarded and offhand, which makes me think that if there was something darker or more suspicious going on surrounding her illness, Dalinar doesn't know about it, while Gavilar (and possibly Navani) might.

The silence regarding Jasnah's illness reminds me of Shallan's ability to compartmentalize her memories and feelings.  I remember being shocked at the end of Way of Kings to find out that Shallan murdered her father, and progressively more and more shocked throughout Words of Radiance reading about her tortured, disturbed past and all the horrible things she was forced to do, because you would never guess it just by observing Shallan's outward appearance.  In the same way, the silence regarding Jasnah's illness seems like a glossy front, while underneath there may be something darker and more painful festering.  

Edited April 15, 2018 by Llarimar

[Leyrann]

8 hours ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Well it seems Daddy G knew a bit about radiants, memba Gavilars meating with Eshoni where he said something like: we used to be radiant and your people were vibrant..

What if Daddy G "imprisoned" Jasna in a horrible room without light to break her a little so she would be cracked enough to form a Nahel bond and he spread rumors about her "lunacy" so if she was caught talking to her "imaginary friend" it wouldnt raise to many eyebrows..?

!~ HIF ~!

The problem is that Jasnah didn't meet her "imaginary friend" until the day of Gavilar's assassination.