[OB] Wit in Alethkar super creepy

[Zelly]

At the end of OB, Wit's wrapping up business in Alethkar when he says something that I found pretty disturbing.

Quote

He'd found a much better audience among these poor people than he had among the lighteyes of Alethkar. He'd enjoyed his time here."

He'd enjoyed himself.  Kholinar, at the time, was a city rioting against the queen, then under siege and slowly starving, plagued by corrupted spren and Unmade influences, and then eventually completely invaded.  He thinks this while walking through the literally broken city finds him helping grieving mothers and orphaned children.

I'm not saying Wit's enjoys people's pain. He shows too much care for broken folks for that. 

But I do worry/wonder if he has.....detached his emotions a bit. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Zellyia

[Calderis he/him]

He's lived for millenia. There's absolutely no way he feels for things in the way a mortal would. 

That said, I would much rather spend my time among people who appreciated my attempts to enlighten them and uplift their spirits through stories then I would the arrogant lighteyes who believe they have nothing left to learn and see Wit as nothing more than a means of insulting people. 

[Alderant she/her]

@Zellyia It’s Kholinar—Kholinar is the city in question, Alethkar is the country. 

I agree with @Calderis on this one. I think Wit was trying to bolster the people’s spirits during a very trying time. Don’t find satisfaction and enjoyment from that creepy at all. 

[IllNsickly he/him]

I don’t think he was referring to his time in Kholinar specifically. 

 

Until very recently, most of Alethkar was reasonably pleasant, even the warcamps were sort of a cultural center.

 

He may very well have enjoyed himself in Kholinar, though. He has very odd perspectives on Life, The Cosmere and Everything. Perhaps the things he did off screen in Kholinar were productive and enjoyable. While Shallan, Kaladin & Co. were there, he did spend quite a lot of time being an entertainer. Never underestimate the effect of small morale boosts.

[Vissy]

I mean, Hoid isn't really a good guy. So it's well within expectations that he will display disturbing attitudes from time to time.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Vissy

[Subvisual Haze]

He's lived a long time, and during that long life he's probably had to say goodbye to far too many people he cared about.

I think his eccentricities and odd behaviors are just what keeps him going.  He's set himself a long-term goal (???) involving the fate of the entire cosmere, but still allows himself to help individuals on occasion (the little girl with the doll) to keep his sanity/humanity intact.

[The Sovereign]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:53 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

He's lived a long time, and during that long life he's probably had to say goodbye to far too many people he cared about.

I think his eccentricities and odd behaviors are just what keeps him going.  He's set himself a long-term goal (???) involving the fate of the entire cosmere, but still allows himself to help individuals on occasion (the little girl with the doll) to keep his sanity/humanity intact.

 

Quote

"If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen."

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by The Sovereign

[Vissy]

#KillHoidNow

#BeforeItsTooLate

No but really. Journey before destination. "If I have to watch this world crumble to get what I need" is a statement that inherently goes against the creed of the Radiants. It's a classic "the ends justify the means" statement you'd expect from villains.

I'm calling it now, Hoid is the final enemy.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 minutes ago, Vissy said:

It's a classic "the ends justify the means" statement you'd expect from villains.

Villains... and Jasnah.

Many readers would like to thank Kaladin for coming to the Herald's defense, but in Jasnah's mind, it's not that different from the thieves in the alley situation. I've seen many readers swayed to her side in that situation over the years. Why is one instance of "ends justify the means" considered good, while others are not?

[Vissy]

You miss my point. It doesn't matter what we consider it to be, what matters is that in-universe "Journey before destination" is a really big thing & seems to be part of the underlying moral framework Sanderson wrote into Roshar. The KR are the good guys, and even the universe says so - that sort of thing.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

15 minutes ago, Vissy said:

You miss my point. It doesn't matter what we consider it to be, what matters is that in-universe "Journey before destination" is a really big thing & seems to be part of the underlying moral framework Sanderson wrote into Roshar. The KR are the good guys, and even the universe says so - that sort of thing.

Well, I don't think even KR are necessarily the good guys. What even makes someone a "good guy"? We've seen KR that are definitely not on the main characters' side, like the Skybreakers or King T's Dustbringee (I can't remember her name). Even different orders of the KR disagree on Journey before Destination. Brandon has said that Machiavelli could make a good radiant for certain orders. I don't think Brandon is making a one true good v. evil here. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

20 minutes ago, Vissy said:

You miss my point. It doesn't matter what we consider it to be, what matters is that in-universe "Journey before destination" is a really big thing & seems to be part of the underlying moral framework Sanderson wrote into Roshar. The KR are the good guys, and even the universe says so - that sort of thing.

Jasnah is a KR, and a proponent of ends justify the means. Hoid is a potential KR, and a proponent of ends justify the means(at the moment). Jasnah's actions don't interfere with her Nahel Bond, which means she can practice "ends justify the means" without violating "Journey before Destination." It stands to reason that Hoid can do so as well.

A year ago, she was willing to execute 4 muggers/killers/rapists to protect the people on the streets of Kharbranth. Now the world has gone downhill, and she's willing to send the Heralds back to hell to stop the Desolation. How much further will the world have to spiral downwards before she'll be willing to go to extremes? The only difference between her and Hoid is that Hoid sees the scale of what's going on. He knows that the deaths of 10 people(Jasnah's Herald idea) won't stop anything in the long run. He's accepted that in this conflict of man vs Shard, the world of Roshar will spiral downwards to the point that Taravangian's deal looks like a great idea.

Hoid went into this conflict knowing that unless he wins, Odium destroys the Cosmere, so he's already willing to go to any extreme to stop that. Jasnah hasn't "seen the light," so to speak, so the scale of her extremes are still minor. By the time we get to her book (8 or 10), the world could be broken enough that she might actually agree with Hoid.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

17 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well, I don't think even KR are necessarily the good guys. What even makes someone a "good guy"? We've seen KR that are definitely not on the main characters' side, like the Skybreakers or King T's Dustbringee (I can't remember her name). Even different orders of the KR disagree on Journey before Destination. Brandon has said that Machiavelli could make a good radiant for certain orders. I don't think Brandon is making a one true good v. evil here. 

Building off of what you wrote, the intent of the shard Honor could be interpreted many different ways. I believe Tanavast though it to be more akin to acting morally and keeping your oaths, but now that Tanavast is dead, his push on the intent is no longer here. The Stormfather said something about how honor was not able to regulate the oaths now that he was dead. I think that this is what he was talking about. The core of the Nahel bond is keeping your oaths. Honor was the only one who put morality into that. Now that Honor is dead, Morality isn't an issue in the Nahel bond so long as you are keeping the oaths. This is also why the oaths depend on interpretation now.

[Zelly]

And I think this sort of of discussion of morality and ethics is great because it is exactly what the characters are going through as well.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

And I think this sort of of discussion of morality and ethics is great because it is exactly what the characters are going through as well.

Yeah, I agree. It's sooo cool. I definitely think that KR have never been required to be moral, as long as they followed the oaths. Even then, different people have different morals and definitions of what keeping the oaths means. 

[Calderis he/him]

It's old, and a few of the ideas (like my lovely but dead Taravangian as Bondsmith idea) are definitely outdated, but this is definitely relevant to the current discussion. 

I had hoped that Malata following the Diagram would have killed this ambiguity. "honorable" and "good" are not synonyms. Especially not in a world in which no Shard is good or evil. 

[Draigon]

I have, on occasion, happily toyed with the idea of an alternate universe version of Roshar where "Dark" versions of our main Radiants end up shaping the new orders. What if Gavilar didn't die? What if Kaladin went Skybreaker? All still very valid Raidiants, but a group not striving for the same translations of ideals that we see currently.

[Tesh Any pronouns]

14 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

 

Quote

"If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen."

 

That's what I was going to say... 

Hoid, although he does love some people, and will help them sometimes, is mostly concerned for himself. I wouldn't really take that one quote as an indicator of his mental state, just that he had enjoyed helping people.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

On 3/27/2018 at 8:40 AM, Vissy said:

#KillHoidNow

#BeforeItsTooLate

No but really. Journey before destination. "If I have to watch this world crumble to get what I need" is a statement that inherently goes against the creed of the Radiants. It's a classic "the ends justify the means" statement you'd expect from villains.

I'm calling it now, Hoid is the final enemy.

Good luck. Hes immune to shardblades, We'd need to steal nightblood.

[king of nowhere]

"the end does not justify the means" is something stated by people having the luxury of better alternatives. when the stakes are smaller, and you have cleaner ways of reaching your goals. on roshar they have neither

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/27/2018 at 0:23 PM, Draigon said:

I have, on occasion, happily toyed with the idea of an alternate universe version of Roshar where "Dark" versions of our main Radiants end up shaping the new orders. What if Gavilar didn't die? What if Kaladin went Skybreaker? All still very valid Raidiants, but a group not striving for the same translations of ideals that we see currently.

Are you perchance a writer for every cheesy science fiction television show ever made?

What if we had an episode where all the good characters are bad, and all the bad characters are good?  Wouldn't that be craaazy?  Also everyone has a goatee.

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Are you perchance a writer for every cheesy science fiction television show ever made?

What if we had an episode where all the good characters are bad, and all the bad characters are good?  Wouldn't that be craaazy?  Also everyone has a goatee.

It's bizarro

[IllNsickly he/him]

@Subvisual Haze I had a genuine LOL. Cheers!!

@Calderis as always, said it perfectly. Honourable and Good are not synonymous. 

WoB says (paraphrased) that the Oaths are Fluid, open to interpretation.

Based on Kaladins conversations with Syl, there appears to be a balance between Spren and Radiant. A sort of Checks and Balances. I like this. Especially with Hoid, he is older than EVERYONE, almost. If the Nahael Bond and Oath interpretation is based on perspectives, things is about to get Awesome! Hoids millennias old experience VS the Moral Ambiguity of a Crypic is going to be heavy really soon I think.

I have been drinking any my thinker is taking a siesta! I am sure I had more to say, oh well...

 

[Ashspren]

On 3/7/2018 at 3:52 PM, Zellyia said:

At the end of OB, Wit's wrapping up business in Alethkar when he says something that I found pretty disturbing.

He'd enjoyed himself.  Kholinar, at the time, was a city rioting against the queen, then under siege and slowly starving, plagued by corrupted spren and Unmade influences, and then eventually completely invaded.  He thinks this while walking through the literally broken city finds him helping grieving mothers and orphaned children.

I'm not saying Wit's enjoys people's pain. He shows too much care for broken folks for that. 

But I do worry/wonder if he has.....detached his emotions a bit. 

Maybe this is Brandon hinting towards the (unfortunate) fact that Hoid’s time on Roshar might be coming to an end. When he says “He’d enjoyed his time here,” it almost sounds like a farewell...