The Recreance

[Seloun]

* Re-reading chapter 52 TwoK - there were others waiting for those radiants - their squires? Also, "They were the first, and they were also the last" - what does that mean? Windrunners and stonewards were the first to emerge as radiants with oaths, and were the last to leave their shards? Or something else?

 

I read that as 'they were the first [to break their oaths], and they were also the last [generation of the Knights Radiant]', i.e. 'beginning of the end'. If others had done the same earlier, I would have expected that news would have traveled, so it must be early - probably the very first group to give up their Shards. The other orders presumably followed suit some time after.

[marianmi]

We know that the windrunners were already engaged when *something* happened, so if the radiants were tricked somehow into something, the Windrunners, being on the front lines, would have been the first to react - so they would have been the first to abandon their shards.

Maybe.

[JcStoneDog]

So the timeline is something like this:

 

 Oath Pact ---> Unknown number of Desolations ---> Spren begin to mimic Herald Powers ---> More(or just one) Desolations ----> Knight Radiants are formed---> More Desolations---> "Last Desolation---> Unknown amount of time -----> Recereance --->  Herocracy ---> Sunmaker ---> Gavilar's death ---> Current events

Edited March 12, 2014 by JcStoneDog

[Lizzardborn]

A dirty bomb theory.

Dirty bomb is when you create a nuke so that it taints for a long time the earth and sea.

We have few contradictory things about the last desolation. It was a bad one. A new stratagem. 9 out of 10 heralds survived. So it is either a miracle or something else.

So my theory goes like this:

Before the last battle our side are desperate and they employ some new stratagem - a dirty bomb of a kind that messes with the laws of the cosmere itself by the bondsmiths. Short term effects are that the enemy is severely weakened, and the abnormally low casualties ensure. Medium term effects of that event is the Recreance and the breaking of the oathpact and the tainting of all the bonds. Maybe the KR were acting in self preservation. Maybe the deed was so dishonorable that it made keeping any oaths impossible.

So the Recreance had more to do with what won the last desolation and not the breaking of the pact.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Lizzardborn

[Cardello]

I don't like thinking that spren were doing things like bond-farming, but it is a possibility. Remember that the Parshendi abandoned their spren (changed forms) to get away from their gods because they were being controlled by them. They just wanted to be free.

 

Maybe the same type of thing was being done to the KR. They broke their bonds with their spren so they could be free. The spren might have been getting overly aggressive, loving the life in the physical realm and the benefits of bonding to humans.

 

 

One thing to think about that I didn't really see in these theories:

 

The Unmade (the opposite of the Heralds?) - they have to fit somewhere into these theories. If Honor can have the Heralds, Odium can have his heroes too. We know very little of them, but I would assume they would want the Heralds and the KR to abandon their oaths. 

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

The decoded epigraph provides pertinent information.

 

It reads:

Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant.  You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return.

[Moogle]

Then how any of them survived? Or you think they all died then, then others were formed out of Honor splintering?

 

Pattern says they all died. Here is his explanation:

 

 

“I was not me when the Knights Radiant existed. It is complex to explain. I have always existed. We are not ‘born’ as men are, and we cannot truly die as men do. Patterns are eternal, as is fire , as is the wind. As are all spren. Yet, I was not in this state. I was not . . . aware.”

“You were a mindless spren ?” Shallan said. “Like the ones that gather around me when I draw?”

“Less than that,” Pattern said. “I was . . . everything. In everything. I cannot explain it. Language is insufficient. I would need numbers.”

“Surely there are others among you, though,” Shallan said. “Older Cryptics? Who were alive back then?”

“No,” Pattern said softly. “None who experienced the bond.”

“Not a single one?”

“All dead,” Pattern said. “To us, this means they are mindless— as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .”

[Numb]

He says all the bonded one died not all the Cryptics though. 

[Moogle]

He says all the bonded one died not all the Cryptics though. 

 

Sorry, I cut off the last bit of that quote.

 

 

“All dead,” Pattern said. “To us, this means they are mindless— as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .”

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer.

“An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

 

"the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded" is the phrase in question. It almost seems like a typo.

[DBDx316]

I may have missed this, but:

 

We know that spren are the swords. Why did they stay swords when the oaths were broken. As evidenced by Syl, wouldn't the spren just sort of fade away? Did the KR actively force them as swords before the breaking? This may only apply to a few of the orders, such as the ones in Dalinar's vision, because there are very few swords in present day.

[Numb]

From Dalinars vision they Radiants first summoned their blades/armour and then "broke their oaths(If it was in fact this)" to kill their spren. Brandon stated they became swords because originally the spren were trying to imitate the heralds which all had swords as their blades so that is the "basic" form of a shadeblade. They most likely learned to change shape later after being bonded with humans for awhile.

 

As for why there are still Cryptics, well you can't kill an idea. I'm pretty sure eventually there would be new Cryptics born since people still tell lies/truths.

[Raevun he/him]

Just a thought on some aspects which I'm making possibly wrong assumptions from. 

 

So, Honor's been urging Dalinar to try to force Odium to choose a champion. This is because Odium won't make himself vulnerable, but would cause him to invest a significant amount of power in an individual on Roshar, and in killing them it would cause him to enter a period of recuperation. 

 

We know that Odium is on a mission to be the sole Shardholder. Honor is splintered, leaving Cultivation as his next target. However, since Honor's splintering Cultivation has been essentially hiding/grieving/uncaring about the situation in general on Roshar. 

 

 

Wyndle moved along beside Lift. “Mother has given up on your kind. I can feel it. She doesn’t care any longer. Now that He’s gone...”

Now, the Heralds seem to essentially be Honor's champions. In them dying and going to Damnation after each desolation, it caused them to release the power Honor had invested in them, bolstering Honor's strength meaning that he would be able to hold off getting splintered. Here is where the recreance comes in. 

 

When the 9 heralds abandoned the Oathpact, it left a significant portion of Honor's power invested outside of his personal being. This left him vulnerable and open to an assault from Odium, splintering him. As all spren derive somewhat from Honor and Cultivation, I believe the Knights Radiant to be a kind of pseudo-champion of both Honor and Cultivation. In having a nahel-bond form, it provides a link directly to one of the two, or more likely a mix, and the power that a KR gains will weaken the Shardholder on a fairly small scale. This obviously adds up when you have a few thousand Knights. 

 

With no Knights Radiant, there is not enough of Cultivation invested outside of her being to leave her vulnerable to an attack from Odium. With their reappearance, it signals to Odium that Cultivation will be getting weaker, and so invokes his attention back to Roshar, causing him to try to spur a Desolation to eventually lead to Cultivation's splintering. 

 

I believe the Knights Radiant gained some increased cosmere awareness, learning that their bonds were weakening their gods, and that was provoking the Desolations to come. And so it's simple: no more Nahel-bonds = no more provocation. 

[marianmi]

I think Honor and Cultivation together reshaped Roshar.

 

* Honor created humans

* Cultivation created the habitat (maybe Shinovar)

 

So both of them were equally invested in Roshar, but in a different way.

 

Odium already got rid of Honor (humans broke their oaths).

Next up, destroy Cultivation. The everstorm, which did not exist before, we've seen how destructive it is for the environment, with plateaus being ripped apart. This looks to me like a direct attack on Cultivation. Odium is taking advantage of the fact that Cultivation gave up.

[Numb]

So what you are saying is that Kaladin is actually going to become the new honor for Cultivation and restore her faith in humanity with his love. Screw Shalladin shipping.

[EHyde she/her]

From Dalinars vision they Radiants first summoned their blades/armour and then "broke their oaths(If it was in fact this)" to kill their spren. Brandon stated they became swords because originally the spren were trying to imitate the heralds which all had swords as their blades so that is the "basic" form of a shadeblade. They most likely learned to change shape later after being bonded with humans for awhile.

 

I think we have to not only ask why the Radiants broke their oaths/killed their spren, but also why they deliberately put Shardblades in the hands of non-Radiants. As with Kaladin, they shouldn't have had to summon their blades to kill their spren, but even if they did, they could have easily chosen to leave the blades somewhere other than at the front door of a military base. Is it possible that giving Shardblades to non-Radiants was the whole point?

[Falconite]

Quick random thought on the Day of Recreance (apologies if someone has posted this before, but I didn't see it).

 

Maybe the Day of Recreance occurred because of the following:

 

• The heralds broke the Oathpact, they couldn't sustain it, they told the people they won (harkening back to the quote in the prelude to tWoK), maybe they would be right;
• The Radiants believe the heralds, that they won, after all, the KR were founded on the preception of the Heralds - they wouldn't lie after all;
• Next desolation comes - Radiants realise they have been lied to, the Heralds who are meant to be of Honor lied to them. 
• KR question their oaths - if splinters of Honor can lie to them about something so important - do their oaths matter?
• They quit.  They decide if the Heralds can walk away from their responsibility, so can they. 

Just a thought - may well be wrong...

[Numb]

I think we have to not only ask why the Radiants broke their oaths/killed their spren, but also why they deliberately put Shardblades in the hands of non-Radiants. As with Kaladin, they shouldn't have had to summon their blades to kill their spren, but even if they did, they could have easily chosen to leave the blades somewhere other than at the front door of a military base. Is it possible that giving Shardblades to non-Radiants was the whole point?

 

I took that as them symbolically saying "This is your burden now". 

[Falconite]

I took that as them symbolically saying "This is your burden now". 

 

Alternately, they knew if they threw down their arms and surrendered, the regular people had no hope against voidbringers without blades...  maybe they were giving up for some reason but still wanted humans to be able to protect themselves?  Life before death and all that...

[RShara she/her]

*wildly speculative theory*

Maybe the spren were the ones who ripped the intelligence from the parshmen (sprenless, soulless).  The KR found out that this opened the parshmen to the influence of Odium and brought about the Desolations, and wanted nothing more to do with them!

 

*end wildly speculative theory*

[Samurai]

One thing I noticed skimming through the post was a belief that the entirety of 9 order fell.  But what if it was more like 80% to 95% of the nine orders broke there oaths and only one order manged to keep most its membership intact. I don't think that the KR would really be able to continue after losing so many people to the recreance. Also were assuming that it happen very quickly what if it toke years to develop.  A slow decay and breaking of oaths until everything just fell apart.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Samurai

[Mindreaver]

My theory is that the recreance was really a peace treaty between the KR and the parishendi.

We know the radiants gave up their surges willingly, and that the parishendi chose dullform on purpose as well. The result? A complete stop to their war.

With that in mind, that might be why lots of people are so obsessed about surgebinders returning. It means that both sides will have to bond with spren again to survive. Bringing an inevitable war.

As far as the one order that remained at great expense to the others, one group does seem to have soulcasters, which is a surge. We've already seen two fake soulcaster devices. What if they are all fake? We've been told again and again that the war couldn't continue without soulcasters. Its propping up the conflict. It might just be the last order of KR trying to wipe out the last of the voidbringers. Since they aren't using their powers directly, it might not elicit the same response from the parishendi. In fact they didn't agree to try stormform until a surgebinder showed himself on the battlefield.

[natc]

I don't recall seeing more than one fake soulcaster tbh.

[Shadowspren he/him]

At the end of WoR, Shallan is talking to pattern and the conversation basically goes like this...

"I hate you"

"I know, but one day you will kill me and have your revenge."

"I don't want revenge, I want my family back"

 

Furthermore, it seems to me that there is a lot that the Spren don't tell the knight... I gather this both from Pattern, Syl and from what is mentioned about Jasnah's spren.

 

It seems that all the spren we've seen are absolutely, 100% sure that the knight will one day kill them... they don't think "maybe you won't" The Stormfather  says "you will kill her, it is inevitable" 

 

Why are they so sure? is it that they have no faith in humanity? because I'm pretty sure Syl and Kal are pretty tight and she now trusts him to be a changed man... OR is there an ulterior motive between spren bonding with humans?

 

In the Second Letter it says (when talking about Odium) "He is unfortunately what we made him to be" So is it that hard to believe that Tanavast, and therefore his spren, are making bonds to achieve some goal? In which case, the Knights might have decided not to be a part of this goal when they figured it out...

 

Could it have be a corruption of the spren? the corruption of the bond? The Windrunners, for example, are supposed to protect those who cannot protect themselves... What if the knights decided that the only way to protect people, was to severe their bond so they couldn't be pawns for a corrupt system?

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I'm not sure why the Recreance happened, but my headcanon was that it was consensual from both Spren and Radiant. I don't particularly believe the Spren could not have known what the Radiants were planning/had planned, especially from the way Kaladin's and Syl's bond has been portrayed thus far.

Edited August 11, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[kaladin_stormblessed_]

I'm in favor of the bond-farming theory, especially since someone has brought up the quote about Syl having helped kill men before. (Entering speculatve theory) We know Syl has been following Kaladin for awhile, seeing someone honorable who protected people... but she can't begin the Nahel bond because he isn't broken. It would've been easy for her to just stick Tien's shoe to the ground in a battle, causing him to trip and be killed, and she knew this would be part of the breaking for Kaladin. But it wasn't enough, she couldn't fully initiate the bond, but she could still cause him enough disgust at the shardblade that he couldn't accept it, eventually causing his enslavement and further broken-ness. It is possible she wasn't aware enough at the time to understand the wrong of her actions... but I can see why this would cause the Recreance in other radiants, because if almost every single radiant had someone super close to them killed by a spren's meddling, it really wouldn't be conducive for a trust relationship.