Shallan's Relationship

digitalbusker · April 25, 2014

Well then, mini fic in the thread. I like! Well... assuming that I'm reading this correctly and this is Friendship!Shalladin and not shippy.

No comment.

It could go either way I suppose, but it works very well as "wow we were so silly back then, it's much better with us just being friends" which... is exactly how I like my Shalllan and Kaladin relationships!

(But... you killed Adolin.... *cries*)

I didn't! It was Odium, probably!

MadMartigan · June 8, 2014

I"m super late to this discussion. Got distracted while reading WoR with work and other novels. So, forgive me if I'm giving life back to a super dead topic or repeating discussion points. I've read some of this thread, but not all of it.

Onwards to my thoughts! Before I get to my "pick"....

First, lemme preface by saying it is way too incredibly early to honestly say. It's entirely possible everyone dies before any serious relationship really starts (children, marriage, vows, etc). I mean, in the long run, not even Vin and Elodin really got into it. Hell, there really wasn't much in the way of romance in Mistborn (wasn't really even much time for it) and a heckuva lot more is happening in the SLA.

Secondly, I echo what many have already said. Please, no three way love triangles. I've yet to read or watch one that I can honestly stomach. Either poorly written or its used for the sake of drama.

Now, on to my choice.

1. Suffice to say, there were few things boring or off in WoR. The biggest was Shallan/Adolin interactions. I see some people just love the heck out of that pairing and I just don't get it. B.S. is light years ahead of literary filth of your Stephanie Myers and her ilk, but their interactions always seemed painfully like teenage girl crushing on talk, dark, and handsome. It's a relationship that's just too... easy and predictable. Though yes, you can say that about Kaladin/Shallan as well I suppose. But honestly, the pairing bores me to death and if that is what B.S. has chosen, the less it is in the book, the better.

2. Finishing up that, yes, I agree with others as well that the relationship just seemed a bit shallow. It starts as a strategy on Shallan's end to protect her family and bring them out of debt. On Jasnah's end, it is a way to, not so much shackle, but bind her to her family simply because of her abilities.

I mean, page 306:

"Needed to make the betrothal to Adolin go forward. Not just for her family, but for the good of the world. Shallan would need the allies and resources that would give her."

Adolin basically starts out as just another pawn for Shallan to use, much like Jasnah has her own.

When Shallan meets Adolin, then it becomes sexual infatuation/lust on Shallan's end, mixed in with the overall goal of wooing him not for her, but for her family and the world. It's means to an end. Kind of an empty attraction based in lies.

3. Then you have Adolin who just seems to want the marriage match making to come to an end. B.S. seems to go out of his way to explain how much of a marriage of convenience this would be for the both of them. Page 332.

4. I did find an interesting bit on page 257, which somewhat brushes the surface of why Shallan/Kaladin make more sense.

"You live lives," Pattern said. "It gives you strength. But the truth . . . Without speaking truths, you will not be able to grow, Shallan." And who does Shallan end up speaking the most painful of truths about herself to? It certainly isn't her betrothed.

5. Now, the scene where Shallan/Kaladin meet is probably, from a humor standpoint, one of the more entertaining interactions B.S. has ever written. It was downright hilarious to see Kaladkin so tongue-tied and unsure of how to respond. Yes, Shallan was wearing a "mask" but that was her. Despite the masks, being a playful smartass with attitude is who she is. The interactions with Adolin...she seems to neuter that side of her personality. Adolin isn't very quick to pick up on her teasing. No verbal banter and sparring between them.

- And let me make the parallel here and yes, it's the Robert Joran parallel. I can't be the only one who thought the Rand/Elayne story lines were dithering, bloating, boring eye-sores. In a way, Rand/Elayne (or even Egwene/Gawyn) mirror Shallan/Adolin in terms of "please, making it stop. I don't want to read them anymore." While Rand/Min - Rand/Aviendha were awesome. Min/Shallan have a lot in common. No sufferers of BS. Lighthearted. Like to have fun and be playful. Min drove Rand mad in a good way. Aviendha had a lot more dry humor/bluntness that was also hilarious. Then you have the best possible parallel in terms of enjoyment of interactions. Matt/Tuon. Best interactions from a 'romantic point' and B.S. nailed that. In fact, I think some of that leaked over into the interactions of Shallan with Kaladin. Let's face it. Kaladin hardly lets anyone get under his skin. I don't think any character quite got under his skin like Shallan in WoR. Shame for Matt in regards to Tuon. Whip smart women. -

6. Then you have Shallan and Kaladin's second meeting and right back to the entertaining verbal sparring. I don't think B.S. writes things for no reason, and their interactions are more developed than almost any other pairing in this series, no matter what the relationships are.

7. An interesting, most likely throw away line on page 557 stuck with me when Shallan is joking with her brothers about love and thinking up ways to describe it. One of her firsts is "Love is like a pile of chull dung. For even as we try to avoid both, we end up stepping in them anyway." This certainly would apply to Kaladin down the line after opening up to Shallan.

-------

8. Pattern again brings up that Shallan has to remember what she did and that she must know herself. (pg. 737)

9. Their spanreed conversation...wince worthy. No...emotion. Just bland.

10. Then of course, we come to the chasm scene. It is one part playful verbal sparing (loved the exchange from the end of page 823-824. That's awesome. Does anyone honestly see that kind of interaction between Shallan and Adolin? I don't.) That scene is also one part painful, brutal honesty. Probably the most honest about themselves they've been to another human being. Probably the most Shallan's been honest with anyone in her life. Amazing how quick she was to bear her soul and the lies she'd been holding. She's not a weak character by any means so you can't blame that on the stress. And Kaladin...He's honest yes, but has he ever let that side of his emotions out to anyone other than Syl? And also, Shallan is the one to really sway his thoughts on light-eyes. Dalinar helped yes. But he wasn't completely successful. Syl tried for how long?

11. Compare to the way Shallan describes Kaladin. "Severe eyes." "Intensity." (page 835)

12. And Kaladin. I think he realizes he's different and he doesn't like that because it'd turned his hate on its head. (pg. 844)

13. pg. 849 is the penultimate page that seals those two for me. I don't think anyone has ever pulled Kaladin apart and exposed what's in his broken heart like that.

"He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken. Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway."

Others have brought this exchange up before, but I think that, right there, is the character to help drive Kaladin on and to 'hope' again. He was broken and he had no idea how to be happy. Or even to hide his sorrow. Shallan smiles anyway. That's honestly what the poor fool needs to learn most. To smile in spite of. They're two bent, scratched sides of the same coin imo. But just because they're broken, doesn't mean they can't help each other. Honestly, they each have what the other needs. Shallan needs truth and honesty in her life. Pattern has told her as much. Who better to teach that than a man steeped in honor and truth? And Kaladin needs help learning to be happy despite being broken. To still feel. He's been one depressed mofo in both books. They're sufficiently alike and unlike each other to be a fantastic, entertaining much. B.S. seems to go out of his way describing just how much they mesh with the way they talk to each other, as well as how unlike they are by describing in great detail how they view storms and rain. What does a Shallan/Adolin relationship do? Honestly, what do they learn from each other?

Pg. 850. Bottom 3rd. Amazing how easy it is for Shallan to get Kaladin to smile. She doesn't even have to try at it. The most depressing man in the SLA, metaphorically brought to his knees in smiles and wordplay by a little redheaded girl. Yes, Syl has done that, but we're talking about human effect on him.

14. When Shallan brings up Adolin during their exchange, his mood blackens. At this point, it may not be so obvious how Shallan really sees Kaladin and in what way, but you can damnation well be certain that Kaladin is feeling it for Shallan. Slowly but surely. Page 877 is all but Kaladin's greatest compliment to a character that's been written so far in regards to Shallan.

15. For those wondering about Kaladin's "protection" issues. He pretty much admitted she was far stronger than him. And he did "protect her" in the chasms. Interestingly enough, when Adolin even sniffs of protecting her, she spazes out about being locked away. She has more to worry about in that regard with Adolin than Kaladin who, when he's still lost Syl, wishes her better luck as a radiant and likely to do a better job. At this point, I don't think there's a character Kal respects more than Shallan after their heart to heart.

16. "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile." The poor chap wishes for the attention she gives Adolin and comments about how well they fit. But seriously? From the way B.S. has written them, Shallan and Kaladin seem like pieces from the same puzzle while Adolin and Shallan is like a square peg in a circular hole.

17. Pg. 936: "She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn't. That was alright. She liked Adolin as he was."

Kal on the mind much? Admit it. She loves witty banter. Adolin isn't the type to provide it.

Now the most interesting part of that age.

I don't think there's any real argument that Shallan's first and foremost love has almost always been nature. It's what drove her passions growing up and what a lot of her inner monologues have been about.

Shallan always describes Adolin with the most basic of adjectives. He's "confident." (page 568*) "those eyes." (pg 567*) At this point, I find it interesting she tells herself to be careful because of Kabsal. Easily infatuated for those who show interest in her.

"Friendly way about him." (pg. 578*)

Then on page 936, she describes him as "kind, noble, and 'genuine'". Again, throw away, stock adjectives that can be applied to anyone with relative accuracy.

Then she claims not to know how to define what Kaladin is, but then goes on to describe him quite intensely. This is the second time she's compared him to things in nature. The first was comparing their looks and how Kaladin was a statue I think while Adolin picturesque beauty.

"Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain temping arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were---or what you did---you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were."

The best she can come up with for Adolin is noble and genuine? Then claims not to know how to describe her bridgeboy, but ranting inside her head for a good while about him, and in great detail, to the point she loses her train of thought and Adolin talking to her?

Weird. Just kinda confirms that Adolin is the target mainly of her lusts while Kaladin is that type that is more than the sum of his parts. The type she'd actually choose for herself if everything were the same.

I guess I just find it strange for people to see great compatibility with Adolin and Shallan, when there's no textual facts to back that up. The only chemistry you see is physical and even then, that's gradually taken over when Shallan starts comparing the two of them in her head every now and then, the complexity of descriptions mainly centering around Kaladin.

I can't think B.S. is doing that for no reason. After all, Adolin and Shallan with no problems is even more boring than it already is.

Like many though, I hope this isn't a Lancelot/Arthur/Gwen as told by B.S. Hope it's more of a mutual understanding that Adolin and Shallan, as is, just don't really fit and he doesn't dwell too much on romantic drama.

Like I said before though, entirely possible B.S. doesn't dwell long at all. Kal has his duty as a radiant now and Shallan hers. Unlikely to see much of each other. Most of thoughts will be monologues about each other.

I'll kindly be skipping an Adolin/Shallan romantic scenes. It's just so painfully awkward and boring a trope. It just....does nothing for me.

When it comes to fantasy, I've always been of the mind that including relationships aren't that important unless they're central to character growth, or at least, those characters interactions provide a level of well placed humor to take off the edge of the depressing reality of imminent world destruction. Otherwise, keep it all on the backburner.

Wow I ranted for way too long on a dead topic.

My apologies everyone.

Aether · June 8, 2014

I"m super late to this discussion. Got distracted while reading WoR with work and other novels. So, forgive me if I'm giving life back to a super dead topic or repeating discussion points. I've read some of this thread, but not all of it.

Onwards to my thoughts! Before I get to my "pick"....

First, lemme preface by saying it is way too incredibly early to honestly say. It's entirely possible everyone dies before any serious relationship really starts (children, marriage, vows, etc). I mean, in the long run, not even Vin and Elodin really got into it. Hell, there really wasn't much in the way of romance in Mistborn (wasn't really even much time for it) and a heckuva lot more is happening in the SLA.

Secondly, I echo what many have already said. Please, no three way love triangles. I've yet to read or watch one that I can honestly stomach. Either poorly written or its used for the sake of drama.

Now, on to my choice.

1. Suffice to say, there were few things boring or off in WoR. The biggest was Shallan/Adolin interactions. I see some people just love the heck out of that pairing and I just don't get it. B.S. is light years ahead of literary filth of your Stephanie Myers and her ilk, but their interactions always seemed painfully like teenage girl crushing on talk, dark, and handsome. It's a relationship that's just too... easy and predictable. Though yes, you can say that about Kaladin/Shallan as well I suppose. But honestly, the pairing bores me to death and if that is what B.S. has chosen, the less it is in the book, the better.

2. Finishing up that, yes, I agree with others as well that the relationship just seemed a bit shallow. It starts as a strategy on Shallan's end to protect her family and bring them out of debt. On Jasnah's end, it is a way to, not so much shackle, but bind her to her family simply because of her abilities.

I mean, page 306:

"Needed to make the betrothal to Adolin go forward. Not just for her family, but for the good of the world. Shallan would need the allies and resources that would give her."

Adolin basically starts out as just another pawn for Shallan to use, much like Jasnah has her own.

When Shallan meets Adolin, then it becomes sexual infatuation/lust on Shallan's end, mixed in with the overall goal of wooing him not for her, but for her family and the world. It's means to an end. Kind of an empty attraction based in lies.

3. Then you have Adolin who just seems to want the marriage match making to come to an end. B.S. seems to go out of his way to explain how much of a marriage of convenience this would be for the both of them. Page 332.

4. I did find an interesting bit on page 257, which somewhat brushes the surface of why Shallan/Kaladin make more sense.

"You live lives," Pattern said. "It gives you strength. But the truth . . . Without speaking truths, you will not be able to grow, Shallan." And who does Shallan end up speaking the most painful of truths about herself to? It certainly isn't her betrothed.

5. Now, the scene where Shallan/Kaladin meet is probably, from a humor standpoint, one of the more entertaining interactions B.S. has ever written. It was downright hilarious to see Kaladkin so tongue-tied and unsure of how to respond. Yes, Shallan was wearing a "mask" but that was her. Despite the masks, being a playful smartass with attitude is who she is. The interactions with Adolin...she seems to neuter that side of her personality. Adolin isn't very quick to pick up on her teasing. No verbal banter and sparring between them.

- And let me make the parallel here and yes, it's the Robert Joran parallel. I can't be the only one who thought the Rand/Elayne story lines were dithering, bloating, boring eye-sores. In a way, Rand/Elayne (or even Egwene/Gawyn) mirror Shallan/Adolin in terms of "please, making it stop. I don't want to read them anymore." While Rand/Min - Rand/Aviendha were awesome. Min/Shallan have a lot in common. No sufferers of BS. Lighthearted. Like to have fun and be playful. Min drove Rand mad in a good way. Aviendha had a lot more dry humor/bluntness that was also hilarious. Then you have the best possible parallel in terms of enjoyment of interactions. Matt/Tuon. Best interactions from a 'romantic point' and B.S. nailed that. In fact, I think some of that leaked over into the interactions of Shallan with Kaladin. Let's face it. Kaladin hardly lets anyone get under his skin. I don't think any character quite got under his skin like Shallan in WoR. Shame for Matt in regards to Tuon. Whip smart women. -

6. Then you have Shallan and Kaladin's second meeting and right back to the entertaining verbal sparring. I don't think B.S. writes things for no reason, and their interactions are more developed than almost any other pairing in this series, no matter what the relationships are.

7. An interesting, most likely throw away line on page 557 stuck with me when Shallan is joking with her brothers about love and thinking up ways to describe it. One of her firsts is "Love is like a pile of chull dung. For even as we try to avoid both, we end up stepping in them anyway." This certainly would apply to Kaladin down the line after opening up to Shallan.

-------

8. Pattern again brings up that Shallan has to remember what she did and that she must know herself. (pg. 737)

9. Their spanreed conversation...wince worthy. No...emotion. Just bland.

10. Then of course, we come to the chasm scene. It is one part playful verbal sparing (loved the exchange from the end of page 823-824. That's awesome. Does anyone honestly see that kind of interaction between Shallan and Adolin? I don't.) That scene is also one part painful, brutal honesty. Probably the most honest about themselves they've been to another human being. Probably the most Shallan's been honest with anyone in her life. Amazing how quick she was to bear her soul and the lies she'd been holding. She's not a weak character by any means so you can't blame that on the stress. And Kaladin...He's honest yes, but has he ever let that side of his emotions out to anyone other than Syl? And also, Shallan is the one to really sway his thoughts on light-eyes. Dalinar helped yes. But he wasn't completely successful. Syl tried for how long?

11. Compare to the way Shallan describes Kaladin. "Severe eyes." "Intensity." (page 835)

12. And Kaladin. I think he realizes he's different and he doesn't like that because it'd turned his hate on its head. (pg. 844)

13. pg. 849 is the penultimate page that seals those two for me. I don't think anyone has ever pulled Kaladin apart and exposed what's in his broken heart like that.

"He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken. Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway."

Others have brought this exchange up before, but I think that, right there, is the character to help drive Kaladin on and to 'hope' again. He was broken and he had no idea how to be happy. Or even to hide his sorrow. Shallan smiles anyway. That's honestly what the poor fool needs to learn most. To smile in spite of. They're two bent, scratched sides of the same coin imo. But just because they're broken, doesn't mean they can't help each other. Honestly, they each have what the other needs. Shallan needs truth and honesty in her life. Pattern has told her as much. Who better to teach that than a man steeped in honor and truth? And Kaladin needs help learning to be happy despite being broken. To still feel. He's been one depressed mofo in both books. They're sufficiently alike and unlike each other to be a fantastic, entertaining much. B.S. seems to go out of his way describing just how much they mesh with the way they talk to each other, as well as how unlike they are by describing in great detail how they view storms and rain. What does a Shallan/Adolin relationship do? Honestly, what do they learn from each other?

Pg. 850. Bottom 3rd. Amazing how easy it is for Shallan to get Kaladin to smile. She doesn't even have to try at it. The most depressing man in the SLA, metaphorically brought to his knees in smiles and wordplay by a little redheaded girl. Yes, Syl has done that, but we're talking about human effect on him.

14. When Shallan brings up Adolin during their exchange, his mood blackens. At this point, it may not be so obvious how Shallan really sees Kaladin and in what way, but you can damnation well be certain that Kaladin is feeling it for Shallan. Slowly but surely. Page 877 is all but Kaladin's greatest compliment to a character that's been written so far in regards to Shallan.

15. For those wondering about Kaladin's "protection" issues. He pretty much admitted she was far stronger than him. And he did "protect her" in the chasms. Interestingly enough, when Adolin even sniffs of protecting her, she spazes out about being locked away. She has more to worry about in that regard with Adolin than Kaladin who, when he's still lost Syl, wishes her better luck as a radiant and likely to do a better job. At this point, I don't think there's a character Kal respects more than Shallan after their heart to heart.

16. "She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile." The poor chap wishes for the attention she gives Adolin and comments about how well they fit. But seriously? From the way B.S. has written them, Shallan and Kaladin seem like pieces from the same puzzle while Adolin and Shallan is like a square peg in a circular hole.

17. Pg. 936: "She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn't. That was alright. She liked Adolin as he was."

Kal on the mind much? Admit it. She loves witty banter. Adolin isn't the type to provide it.

Now the most interesting part of that age.

I don't think there's any real argument that Shallan's first and foremost love has almost always been nature. It's what drove her passions growing up and what a lot of her inner monologues have been about.

Shallan always describes Adolin with the most basic of adjectives. He's "confident." (page 568*) "those eyes." (pg 567*) At this point, I find it interesting she tells herself to be careful because of Kabsal. Easily infatuated for those who show interest in her.

"Friendly way about him." (pg. 578*)

Then on page 936, she describes him as "kind, noble, and 'genuine'". Again, throw away, stock adjectives that can be applied to anyone with relative accuracy.

Then she claims not to know how to define what Kaladin is, but then goes on to describe him quite intensely. This is the second time she's compared him to things in nature. The first was comparing their looks and how Kaladin was a statue I think while Adolin picturesque beauty.

"Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain temping arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were---or what you did---you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were."

The best she can come up with for Adolin is noble and genuine? Then claims not to know how to describe her bridgeboy, but ranting inside her head for a good while about him, and in great detail, to the point she loses her train of thought and Adolin talking to her?

Weird. Just kinda confirms that Adolin is the target mainly of her lusts while Kaladin is that type that is more than the sum of his parts. The type she'd actually choose for herself if everything were the same.

I guess I just find it strange for people to see great compatibility with Adolin and Shallan, when there's no textual facts to back that up. The only chemistry you see is physical and even then, that's gradually taken over when Shallan starts comparing the two of them in her head every now and then, the complexity of descriptions mainly centering around Kaladin.

I can't think B.S. is doing that for no reason. After all, Adolin and Shallan with no problems is even more boring than it already is.

Like many though, I hope this isn't a Lancelot/Arthur/Gwen as told by B.S. Hope it's more of a mutual understanding that Adolin and Shallan, as is, just don't really fit and he doesn't dwell too much on romantic drama.

Like I said before though, entirely possible B.S. doesn't dwell long at all. Kal has his duty as a radiant now and Shallan hers. Unlikely to see much of each other. Most of thoughts will be monologues about each other.

I'll kindly be skipping an Adolin/Shallan romantic scenes. It's just so painfully awkward and boring a trope. It just....does nothing for me.

When it comes to fantasy, I've always been of the mind that including relationships aren't that important unless they're central to character growth, or at least, those characters interactions provide a level of well placed humor to take off the edge of the depressing reality of imminent world destruction. Otherwise, keep it all on the backburner.

Wow I ranted for way too long on a dead topic.

My apologies everyone.

Wow. You've convinced me. Shallan/Kaladin way more interesting than Shallan/Adolin.

And other than that pretty empty compliment, you make some amazingly astute observations and a heck of a lot of good points. Kudos, really!

I consider it an honour to give you your first up-vote. EDIT: And your second one. I bullied my friend into giving you one.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Aether

June 8, 2014

It is a nice analysis and you make good points. I will not quote as it is quite long on its own.

I noticed you tend to take Shallan and Kaladin's point-of-view while you completely disregard Adolin's. You wish Shallan and Adolin will simply realize they are not mend to be together. Whereas I agree Shallan may come to this conclusion, I do not see Adolin doing the same. I agree she is physically attracted to him, but he is more than simply infatuated with her: he loves her. He thinks she is amazing, smart and wonderful. Never does he uses physical traits to express his attraction to her which means the chemistry is, at least, working for him. So no, I do not foresee Adolin letting go the one girl he actually likes unless he starts believing she is too good for him.

I personally loved their interactions and I was not so found of the Shallan and Kaladin ones. They kept on fighting and the confidences they made to each other were forced. They came out from dire circumstances and I have stated, in another post, it is unfair to think Shallan and Adolin could not have share deep moments as well. They have had no opportunity so far and no reasons to, but it may change.

I agree they come up as childish as times, but Adolin is still a child in many ways, much unlike Kaladin who has had a hard life that made him grew up faster. I also think Shallan was appreciating the lightness of the relationship which was much unlike any other she's had in the past. Albeit, it may also change.

I disagree with your Robert Jordan parallel. I personally hated the Rand and Min pairing. They spent something like what, two minutes together, and they fall in love with each other, mostly because of a stupid viewing. I never liked the pairing because it never had causes to exist. I was just drop on us without any explanation. Also there is the fact I never liked Min as a character since I found her only purpose seemed to have those ridiculous visions that "always come true no matter what". How boring for a plot line to have someone tell you without a doubt what will happen. Rand and Elayne, I could get: farmboy falls in love with pretty princess. I did not like it either, but I could understand it. Rand and Aviendha was the more fleshed out relationship, in my views. They were my favorite pairing as I thought it had causes to exists to begin with.

Shallan and Adolin, they are dating, they are getting to know each other. True, it comes from an arranged wedding. True, they both have their reasons to make it work, but we can't just disregard the fact Adolin actually likes her. I do not see the relationship as boring at all. Shallan is a powerful Radiant while Adolin is a prince on a dark downhill path. It will be very interesting to see how they adapt to their new positions. Will the relationship survive? Probably not on the short term, but I do hope it will on the long run. Besides I believe Adolin is giving Shallan exactly what she needs: care, love and laughter while Shallan is giving Adolin exactly what he needs: smart, respect and difference. Adolin is different than the other lighteyes, so yes he is attracted by the strange non-conventional girl. It fits.

Shallan and Kaladin, they do not fit as well. Sure, they shared some moments. Sure, there is some attractions which will likely be explored, but I think they would be the boring relationship. How boring is it to have your main female and your main male character becoming an item? How will they developed as a couple? Will they keep on bickering playing at being more witty than the other? Besides, Kaladin is drak and moody. Will Shallan want to keep on dragging him? Will Kaladin want to keep on supporting Shallan slightly annoying positivism? In the long run? I am not sure. I, for one, believe they are more suited as friends.

Albeit, you get I am a Shallan/Adolin shipper, but your post was a nice read nonetheless, even if I don't agree.

MadMartigan · June 8, 2014

How boring is it to have your main female and your main male character becoming an item? How will they developed as a couple? Will they keep on bickering playing at being more witty than the other? Besides, Kaladin is drak and moody. Will Shallan want to keep on dragging him? Will Kaladin want to keep on supporting Shallan slightly annoying positivism? In the long run? I am not sure. I, for one, believe they are more suited as friends.

To be fair, you could flip that entirely around. How boring is it to have the lower rank Shallan fall for the high blood, sword master of a prince? As I said. Almost like Egwene and Gawyn all over again, which was honestly, imo, the biggest waste of a relationship. But then, I hated the characters of both Gawyn and Galad the most.

Remember though, while Kaladin is dark and gloomy, he was flashing smiles and opening up around Shallan, particularly after the chasm.

And personally, I rather think Kaladin would prefer to be positive. No one WANTS to be a depressed sorry sucker. That's just the hand Kaladin's character got dealt.

People bring up Jasnah as an alternative, but hot damnation, do you want the guy even more repressed? Not sure Jasnah has a funny bone in her body.

I actually don't ship anyone in this one, and I've kinda tempered it. Authors always seem to go in the opposite direction I want. I just based things off what I read. And this isn't Ron/Hermione (most annoying thing to read ever). I think they actually like the verbal sparring. And I wouldn't say it was fighting so much new people not knowing much about each other.

And not sure what you find that isn't boring about Shallan/Adolin. Isn't even any drama like Vin/Elodin.

I'll give you that Adolin probably is developing feelings for Shallan. She's not a shallow light-eyes like most of the women he's familiar with.

But what has Shallan shown but physical attraction? Like I said, she's spent all this time with Adolin and the best she can come up with are stock personality traits she likes about him. One day with Kaladin and she's using metaphors about her 1st love (nature) to describe.

As an outside reader into her thoughts, that just says more to me.

But who can say? W/e Brandon writes or spends time on, I just hope it's written well. I wasn't convinced with the Adolin/Shallan thing in WoR. Maybe that'll change. If so, great. Right now though, still seems a bit forced in order to interject drama.

Left · June 9, 2014

It'll be Shallan and the branch. The branch is the Stick when it gets older.

Shaggai · June 9, 2014

It'll be Shallan and the branch. The branch is the Stick when it gets older.

That's... mildly disturbing, to say the least. Oh Almighty, and now I'm remembering the Syl/Pattern thread. Let's not have that happen again.

June 9, 2014

To be fair, you could flip that entirely around. How boring is it to have the lower rank Shallan fall for the high blood, sword master of a prince? As I said. Almost like Egwene and Gawyn all over again, which was honestly, imo, the biggest waste of a relationship. But then, I hated the characters of both Gawyn and Galad the most.

It is not boring. Adolin is not Gawin: sure he is a prince and a talented swordsman, but the comparison stop right there. Gawin is an insufferable egocentric brat who puts his heart whims before his responsibilities. He runs away from them whereas Adolin is nearly crushed by the weight of it. Adolin is loyal to the bone and would never, never abandoned anyone in his family. In fact, it is more the opposite: Adolin literally trusts himself in danger just to protect those he loves. He is also a very likable and sympathetic character much unlike Gawin.

Personally, I do not read it as Shallan, the poor girl, falling for the prince, but more as the prince falling for the poor girl who turns out being awesome. I read more as the prince who couldn't get a girl to stick with him finally finding one he actually likes, he actually cares about, worst one he actually falls madly in love with only to find out she may be out of reach. Adolin is pretty much the knight in the shinny armor in the big white horse with a twist: the horse is dead, the armor is shattered and the prince is falling out from grace. How boring is Shallan the once poor, but now powerful Radiant Knight together with Adolin the rebellious Alethki prince who sent all conventions to hell when he took upon himself to kill a murderer his society's laws were unjustly protecting? It is not boring at all!

Remember though, while Kaladin is dark and gloomy, he was flashing smiles and opening up around Shallan, particularly after the chasm.

And personally, I rather think Kaladin would prefer to be positive. No one WANTS to be a depressed sorry sucker. That's just the hand Kaladin's character got dealt.

People bring up Jasnah as an alternative, but hot damnation, do you want the guy even more repressed? Not sure Jasnah has a funny bone in her body.

Some people just cannot help being depressed. Even before his life started going bad, Kal was not mister happy. He always was a gloomy unsmiling child. I do not believe he will grow much out of it: it is just how he is. He will get better and I certainly hope he will, but he will never share Shallan optimist.

I do not like the Kaladin and Jasnah pairing either. I do not believe they have much in common. They are both smart, but I do not think they share a similar kind of smart. Besides, Jasnah is too old for Kal and she represents everything Kal hates in lighteyes women, unlike Shallan who is quite different.

I actually don't ship anyone in this one, and I've kinda tempered it. Authors always seem to go in the opposite direction I want. I just based things off what I read. And this isn't Ron/Hermione (most annoying thing to read ever). I think they actually like the verbal sparring. And I wouldn't say it was fighting so much new people not knowing much about each other.

And not sure what you find that isn't boring about Shallan/Adolin. Isn't even any drama like Vin/Elodin.

I think they were fighting a lot. They both have strong personalities and they clashed. I see them as competing siblings. I could see Kal as the older brother, the one Shallan never had. As a couple however, I think they are badly suited for each other, but you know many people disagree with me here so you are not alone.

I do not think Shallan/Adolin have much in common with Vin/Elend. Vin was a low born orphan skaa whereas Shallan may have been raised in a dysfunctional impoverish family, she still had a life of privilege and she was still of high enough rank to be considered to marry prince Adolin. As for Elend, well he is a rich bookish heir with little combat skills.... Not much in common with Adolin except for the "rich" and "heir" part.

I'll give you that Adolin probably is developing feelings for Shallan. She's not a shallow light-eyes like most of the women he's familiar with.

Probably? He is madly falling in love with her, if it is not already done. All the girls he dated so far did not care much about him: they cared about his titles. Shallan was the first one to actually ask him something personal. It was silly, but it was personal and Adolin fell for it. He drop his mask and we got to see likable, spontaneous and laughing Adolin. She makes him laugh, she is smarter than him, but she does not take it out on him. She is patient and she considers he has the potential to understand her gibs, even if he dismissed it by claiming he is a dummy (which he isn't, but that was part of another discussion we had on him).

But what has Shallan shown but physical attraction? Like I said, she's spent all this time with Adolin and the best she can come up with are stock personality traits she likes about him. One day with Kaladin and she's using metaphors about her 1st love (nature) to describe.

As an outside reader into her thoughts, that just says more to me.

You are right about this. We do not know at this point if Shallan cares as much about Adolin as he seems to care about her. She thinks he is handsome and dreamy (which is probably is) and by the end of WoK, she was still intend on making the relationship work. She gets along well with him, so far. We will see where they will go. However, despite loving the Shallan/Adolin pairing, I believe the relationship will end in the next book on a misunderstanding. I also believe they will get back together at some point later on or I hope they will.

Edited June 9, 2014 by maxal

theravenchilde · June 9, 2014

tbh I am just going to ignore the overwhelming het in this thread because Shallan has seen Jasnah's safehand and other parts and lingered on them light blind it. Shasnah! Literally, I only voted Shadolin because Jasnah is not an option up there, though she definitely is in the series. Shaaaaaaaaaaaaasnah. Nooooon-monosexual couples please for the love of Harmony just accept that people are going to ship them and therefore please include those options in your fandom-poling. Please.

(shasnah)

kaellok · June 9, 2014

Shallan needs truth and honesty in her life. Pattern has told her as much. Who better to teach that than a man steeped in honor and truth?

But what has Shallan shown but physical attraction?

I don't have the book with me, so I can't easily give you a point-by-point rebuttal, but that likely wouldn't matter anyway--you don't like the Shallan/Adolin pairing, and that's fine; everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

However, there are a few areas that still deserve specific mention. First, Kaladin is seen to be struggling with honor throughout all of WoR. That's his entire character arc for the book, is struggling to find out what is honorable, and how to be honorable. If he is seriously having that much trouble with "murdering someone in cold blood is bad, period" then he's hardly "steeped in honor." Further, while Syl demands honesty and truth, Kaladin doesn't. He tends to avoid it as much as possible whenever it would be a hindrance to himself; also not the most honorable of actions. I mean, look at his history of dishonesty--blaming others for his own failures, blaming himself for the failures of others, deliberately hiding his radiantness from a man he says he respects who is looking for Radiants, and deliberately hiding the fact that he killed Shallan's brother when he recounts his story to her in the chasm. Oh wait, but he basically lies about that whole scenario to her, too; definitely a bloke steeped in honesty.

Towards Shallan and Adolin--so what if she's interested in Adolin mostly for his looks? She's, what, 18? And you think looks aren't going to be important? And who cares about the original motivation being entirely self-serving? She was up-front and blunt about the motivations at first, so it's hardly as if their relationship is based on a lie (if, for instance, she had hid her real motivations, then that would probably doom the marriage, but she didn't...and Adolin was okay with that). And, while we may not see the extreme vim and vigor that you seem to want her to display regarding Adolin, what we do see is a very traditional highborn lighteyes willing to contravene tradition in order to show Adolin that she cares about him, that she wants him, and that she's not going to let him go without a fight. We see Kaladin mentioning how well Adolin and Shallan fit together. So, maybe the writing of the scenes don't live up to what you want--but you can't just dismiss the in-text attitudes and thoughts of people just because you disagree. Sanderson is, in my opinion, very much at his weakest when writing romances and relationships. You finding the scenes between Adolin and Shallan so dreadfully boring and of little to no worth could very easily be an indication that it's real. I definitely don't agree with your opinion on their quality, but again, agree to disagree.

Shallan makes Kaladin laugh and smile easily, like Tien did. So, in a Kaladin/Shallan pairing, that's obviously what Kaladin would be getting out of it--he'd be happier, probably. But Shallan is, what, physically attracted to him? Just more intensely than to Adolin? That's your argument, right? But, of course, you already said that's not a good foundation for a relationship. What, exactly, does Kaladin offer her? A target for her to spar with? She already has enough pairs of boots, I think.

Jo and the Bush · June 9, 2014

I think that Adolin and Shallan are going to End up with eachother in a Legal Marrage, but it will be for Convinence on both of their Parts. Kaladin does Like Shallan, But I don't Think Shallan will (Or Has) fallen for him. I want Kaladin to fall for a Non-Radiant (Or Older Lift)

DeployParachute · June 9, 2014

Ah Maxal and Kaellok, good to see you, as I always enjoy our shipping sparring matches. Though since we have beaten these many horses to death, I will try to focus on the new points brought up. En Garde!

(Also, my copy of WoR is currently 1600 mi away from me atm, so I will have to make my arguments from my best memory, apologies)

Maxal:

It is a nice analysis and you make good points. I will not quote as it is quite long on its own.

I noticed you tend to take Shallan and Kaladin's point-of-view while you completely disregard Adolin's. You wish Shallan and Adolin will simply realize they are not mend to be together. Whereas I agree Shallan may come to this conclusion, I do not see Adolin doing the same. I agree she is physically attracted to him, but he is more than simply infatuated with her: he loves her. He thinks she is amazing, smart and wonderful. Never does he uses physical traits to express his attraction to her which means the chemistry is, at least, working for him. So no, I do not foresee Adolin letting go the one girl he actually likes unless he starts believing she is too good for him.

I personally loved their interactions and I was not so found of the Shallan and Kaladin ones. They kept on fighting and the confidences they made to each other were forced. They came out from dire circumstances and I have stated, in another post, it is unfair to think Shallan and Adolin could not have share deep moments as well. They have had no opportunity so far and no reasons to, but it may change.

I disagree with your Robert Jordan parallel. I personally hated the Rand and Min pairing. They spent something like what, two minutes together, and they fall in love with each other, mostly because of a stupid viewing. I never liked the pairing because it never had causes to exist. I was just drop on us without any explanation.

Besides I believe Adolin is giving Shallan exactly what she needs: care, love and laughter while Shallan is giving Adolin exactly what he needs: smart, respect and difference. Adolin is different than the other lighteyes, so yes he is attracted by the strange non-conventional girl. It fits.

Shallan and Kaladin, they do not fit as well. Sure, they shared some moments. Sure, there is some attractions which will likely be explored, but I think they would be the boring relationship. How boring is it to have your main female and your main male character becoming an item? How will they developed as a couple? Will they keep on bickering playing at being more witty than the other? Besides, Kaladin is drak and moody. Will Shallan want to keep on dragging him? Will Kaladin want to keep on supporting Shallan slightly annoying positivism? In the long run? I am not sure. I, for one, believe they are more suited as friends.

1. Totally agree, Adolin is 100% into Shallan for probably all of the right reasons. Where we diverge is that I believe it is likely that this is also what is going to set him up for major character development and pain. He will be crushed emotionally by her when she realizes that he is not ultimately what she wants, and that coupled with the emotional distance he'll put between himself and everyone else over his concealed murder of Sadeas will be what breaks him and opens him up to his very own spren. (or so I can hope)

2. So can you explain to me what you mean here by using the term "forced"? Is it that you felt the writing itself was forced, or is it that you feel that the characters felt "forced" to share the secrets that they did to each other? If it is the latter, can you provide some reasoning or examples for this? From my memory, Shallan drives most of the conversations in the chasm while traveling, mainly because she doesn't enjoy Kaladin's brooding silence, and she typically pokes fun at him to prod him into engaging her. Perhaps this is what your referring to? Other than that, with regards to their shared stories (his time as a slave, her childhood and murder of father) that interaction starts out with him stating Sadeas hung him up in a highstorm. She asks (again, asks) for him to tell her that story, to help take her mind of the storm. Kaladin didn't have to give it to her, she certainly wasn't demanding it. Is that forced? I didn't think so, but again, you may have read it differently. And her response after he tells her his story? He certainly wasn't looking for anything from her, wasn't expecting any response from her, and yet, she gave it up freely. Is that forced? I don't think so, but if you have a different interpretation, I'd like to hear your reasoning why.

3. Kind of glad the WoT parallel was brought up, because it's actually helping me get a better grasp of just how different people perceive things that an author produces. We disagree so much on the interactions between Kal/Shal and Ado/Shal, that I guess it shouldn't be a surprise we disagree on Rand/Min Rand/Elayne. Just funny how these things work. I will only comment that Elayne's first interaction with Rand was also very brief (even more so, Rand actually spent a whole day and almost a night in Baerlon with Min hanging around, compared to a single 20 min garden scene in Camelyn). Then they have the walks and flirting at the beginning of Shadow Rising, but that also read to me as being very superficial at that point. Then after that, they have no interactions again until he and all three women are together for...ahem, things. Min and Aviendha scenes with Rand were more entertaining to read to me. Regardless how "unexpected" or "dropped on the reader" Min and Rand were, by the end of the series, I actually felt that he and her actually had the most meaningful and matured relationship. (but they also had spent the most time together...so there is that too)

4. I would argue it is too early to say that Shallan and Adolin are giving each other..."love". Would say the same thing about Shallan and Kaladin. Attraction between Shallan and Adolin, playfulness, flirting, those are the things that I see in the text, and are all certainly a good start, but I see the word "love" thrown around at this stage and I wince. They do not have love at the moment, we haven't gotten there yet. Also, can you provide me an example of what you mean by Adolin proving "care" to Shallan? Just want to know how you are defining this so I can better understand your view. An example from the text would help with this too. From my interpretation, i feel that the text shows Shallan being pretty independent of any "care" that Adolin could provide her. Perhaps you meant something else?

5. K, so here is where I state that it really annoys me when people say phrases like "lead male character lead female character getting together, ick, boring". I say this annoys me because I'm looking at it from a writing perspective. The fact that both characters are "leads" isn't what would make a relationship boring to read. It is the writing of their characters and their interactions that make or break the interest for the reader. Storytelling uses tropes and reuses tropes. All. The. Time. Humans in any and every culture throughout history do this, and it is what helps us recognize and appreciate stories that are told. The familiar themes, character types, tropes, plot lines are what we as the story listener/reader/watcher identify with and relate to. The key is to take those things that are familiar, and apply a different spin that makes it fresh. (one of the first lessons from Writing Excuses, "give me the same...but different". So if two characters are written to have chemistry and conflict together, then the fact that they are leads should not matter one jot. I can appreciate your opinion of not liking Shalladin because you find them boring to read. I cannot appreciate your opinion just because they are both "lead characters"

Kaellok:

However, there are a few areas that still deserve specific mention. First, Kaladin is seen to be struggling with honor throughout all of WoR. That's his entire character arc for the book, is struggling to find out what is honorable, and how to be honorable. If he is seriously having that much trouble with "murdering someone in cold blood is bad, period" then he's hardly "steeped in honor." Further, while Syl demands honesty and truth, Kaladin doesn't. He tends to avoid it as much as possible whenever it would be a hindrance to himself; also not the most honorable of actions. I mean, look at his history of dishonesty--blaming others for his own failures, blaming himself for the failures of others, deliberately hiding his radiantness from a man he says he respects who is looking for Radiants, and deliberately hiding the fact that he killed Shallan's brother when he recounts his story to her in the chasm. Oh wait, but he basically lies about that whole scenario to her, too; definitely a bloke steeped in honesty.

Towards Shallan and Adolin--so what if she's interested in Adolin mostly for his looks? She's, what, 18? And you think looks aren't going to be important? And who cares about the original motivation being entirely self-serving? She was up-front and blunt about the motivations at first, so it's hardly as if their relationship is based on a lie (if, for instance, she had hid her real motivations, then that would probably doom the marriage, but she didn't...and Adolin was okay with that). And, while we may not see the extreme vim and vigor that you seem to want her to display regarding Adolin, what we do see is a very traditional highborn lighteyes willing to contravene tradition in order to show Adolin that she cares about him, that she wants him, and that she's not going to let him go without a fight. We see Kaladin mentioning how well Adolin and Shallan fit together. So, maybe the writing of the scenes don't live up to what you want--but you can't just dismiss the in-text attitudes and thoughts of people just because you disagree. Sanderson is, in my opinion, very much at his weakest when writing romances and relationships. You finding the scenes between Adolin and Shallan so dreadfully boring and of little to no worth could very easily be an indication that it's real. I definitely don't agree with your opinion on their quality, but again, agree to disagree.

Shallan makes Kaladin laugh and smile easily, like Tien did. So, in a Kaladin/Shallan pairing, that's obviously what Kaladin would be getting out of it--he'd be happier, probably. But Shallan is, what, physically attracted to him? Just more intensely than to Adolin? That's your argument, right? But, of course, you already said that's not a good foundation for a relationship. What, exactly, does Kaladin offer her? A target for her to spar with? She already has enough pairs of boots, I think.

1. I would actually argue that Kaladin's character arc in WoR is more about "trust" than it is about "honor". Let's talk about honor as it applies to the SA series, at least in regards to the two books currently:

Honor - "adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct."

Kaladin doesn't have honor issues so much as he has trust issues. Kaladin never directly lies to any of the characters you mention. Yes, he withholds information that they don't even ask him for, but there are very good reasons for that and it is centered around "trust". Just because Kaladin wants to be sure about Dalinar before dropping that big secret doesn't make him dishonorable in my opinion. It makes him careful. Syl obviously doesn't find this morally objectionable, because she doesn't die from his omission. She may want him to be open about it immediately, but it is likely less an "honor" issue and more a need for Kaladin's mental state. She's concerned for him and his pain, and she recognizes he needs to be more trustful, because harboring the mistrust is causing him pain and could ultimately cause to to act dishonorable. He doesn't have to learn to be honorable, he has to learn to trust. Not learning to trust quick enough is what caused him to commit his only truly dishonorable act in the book: becoming complicit in the assassination of the king. Also, when you get the chance to look at your book, I'm going to have to ask for an example of Kaladin blaming others for his own mistakes. I have not seen any scene or thought from him where this is the case. He has quite the opposite problem: he mistakenly blames himself for others. Also, with the withholding information from Shallan, again, this is not a direct lie Kaladin decides to tell. The text describes his thoughts as reflecting on how he is so used to telling the story with the omission of him killing the shardbearer, that he doesn't even realize he does it. Then, upon realizing this, he decides to not immediately share the information because he concludes it is not appropriate for their situation. It is not going to help things, and might possibly make the situation worse for them when they are in a survival mode, and telling her something like that might make it difficult for them to work together to make it safely back. If I had been in his shoes, I would have made the same call. I withhold information from people until they are ready to hear it all the time. I don't think that makes me any less honorable. He also doesn't resolve not to tell her, and I would expect him being the character he is, he will tell her when the time is right, especially if they were to ever become an item or at the very least, closer friends. They are out of danger, and I would expect that he will have plans to tell her in the near future. Whether he gets to carry out those plans is another issue.

2. If Shallan doesn't develop some deeper feelings for Adolin other than his looks, then their relationship is going to end in about the same spectacular fashion that an 18 yr old's would :lol: . I know I know, that's not fair, there are other things there than her attraction to him, but I find it hard to pass up opportunities to sass

3. Ha, loved your bit of sass here. Shallan would definitely win boots for life if she and Kaladin ended up being a thing. But more on point, I believe the argument being made was that verbiage used by Shallan when describing Kaladin is a bit more thought out (in her own comparisons to a passion of hers: nature) than hers for Adolin are. To her Adolin is "gorgeous", or "handsome" or "beautiful", or a "sculpted statue", while Kaladin is "ruggedly handsome" like a "rock formation". I think the argument is that she spends more time thinking about the kind of handsome that Kaladin is, than the kind of handsome Adolin is, and that the comparisions for Kaladin are more in line with the things she appreciates about her passion for nature. She takes more time to craft a description for Kaladin's looks than she does Adolin's. Now, whether you think this is an indication of her preference for one of the other, I couldn't say.

I want Kaladin to fall for a Non-Radiant (Or Older Lift)

Sorry, he'll be dead before she's old enough to be interesting in anything other than food and her awesomeness. :unsure:

Edited June 9, 2014 by DeployParachute

Sparks · June 9, 2014

The biggest argument for me against Shallan/Kaladin is their polar opposite natures, roles, and spren.

Pattern is a Cryptic. Pattern and Shallan are fascinated by lies. They have no problem exploring different masks, facades, and identities. They have no problem pursuing a goal by any means necessary, and molding themselves to play the part needed (or even multiple parts needed, in the case of Veil and Shallan).Shallan is the spy / deep cover agent or double agent of the KR.

Syl is an Honorspren. Honorspren and Cryptics loathe each other, for obvious reasons. Kaladin, even though he struggles with truthfulness about himself and self-awareness, he demands transparency and honor in others. And when he lets things slide, like Moash, he gets in real trouble, either with his own self, or with Syl. Kaladin is the oathbound Knight of Camelot of the KR.

How exactly is that relationship going to pan out? Kaladin will be denouncing every moral ambiguity, every lie and half-truth and even outright opposing Shallan on important issues where their worldviews are going to conflict. Sure, having someone be bluntly honest with Shallan is nice, but frankly Shallan seems to have a pretty good handle on reality as it is (she deduces the political undercurrents of the Alethi court fast enough, and she self-analyzes well), and even when she didn't (in tWoK), Jasnah fills that role better.

And from the opposite side, because Adolin is not Kaladin is why I think she will come to the conclusion that Adolin makes a good fit for her. Whether that's enough for her or she's ready for that will be up to BS and Shallan.

From what I can tell of Shallan, she is someone who is always multitasking through multiple life interests, someone who is always going to be biting off enough to stretch her capacity to chew. Someone who is very adaptable and quick thinking, but hasn't always had time to properly think things through and frequently improvises to get out of her own jams. Importantly for this conversation, she's done all this without positive, supportive male involvement - starting with her father and ending with Kabsal (who seemed to give her what she wanted before neatly yanking the rug out from under her). The vibe I get from Shallan's POVs about Adolin speaks to that. He starts off as a mark and as a means to an end, becomes a physical infatuation, and at the end of WoR she's starting to move on to contemplate what he can and can't provide as a personal partner.

Adolin will never be brilliant or a polyglot like Jasnah or Shallan. He will never be a partner in crime or a superior to Shallan in the arenas and fields she works in and excels at. He's not a mentor, and he won't challenge or confront her the way that Jasnah or Kaladin will.

But what he is, is open-minded (for Roshar). He processes, accepts and works effectively with life-changing revelations that are coming faster by the day. He's loyal like a pitbull to his friends and family, even to a fault. And he can be someone dependable and supportive without being overly judgemental or stepping in to fight her battles for her. Having enormous resources to call on as an Alethi prince is a bonus for a woman who will need to make use of those. Being the Ryan Gosling of Roshar probably doesn't hurt. Having atypical compassion, empathy and charm for Alethi royalty, when she's experienced so little of any of that in her own past, scores bonus points.

kaellok · June 9, 2014

Good to see you, too, Mr. Parachute! (btw, have I mentioned how terrifying I find your name? I will never deploy a parachute, as I will never be jumping out of an airplane. I don't care if it's a perfectly good one, or one that's crashing into the ground, or needed to sneak behind enemy lines. Jumping out of a helicopter or off a cliff is the limit that I'm prepared to handle, and even then only if I have a nice harness and stout rope I can hold onto.)

Continuing to only respond to your responses to my post

1. So, yes, Kaladin mostly has trust issues as a more correct way of saying things. However, his trust issues bleed over into dishonesty. Deliberately allowing someone to believe a falsehood is dishonest, even if it's not a lie. It doesn't matter whether it's a good time for it or not. Of course, you should avoid bad ideas in times of stress, to keep from making things worse; that's not the argument I'm making. I'm simply arguing that whether something is honest (not to be confused with the truth) is objective, and Kaladin frequently isn't. Regarding the blame scenario, a lot of that is bleedover from WoK where he thinks he's cursed, or he blames Roshone or the nameless squadleader for Tien's death, etc. In WoR, he's blaming Elhokar for literally every bad thing that has ever happened in his life, and for the mess it's made of the lives of so many others. And, at the very same time (as you point out), Kaladin also assumes responsibility for things that he shouldn't. Regarding honor, Kaladin is mostly honorable, especially by the end of WoR, but it took him an awfully long time to figure out the consistent rules he was going to abide by. I mean, sure, extenuating circumstances and all make it reasonable, but even with Syl trying to get him to realize that cold-blooded murder is wrong Kaladin wasn't listening.

2. Shallan and Adolin's relationship absolutely could blow up, but that physical attraction has, at least for now, spurred passion--which is the number one trait to ensure long-lasting relationships. Granted, there's a lot else that is also required, but how many survive without passion? Or, god forbid, start without any? They have a shallow start, yes, but there is plenty of evidence of that deepening by the end of WoR.

3. I think that 'ruggedly handsome' and 'sculpted statue' are basically the same in terms of "generic statement of physical features." Saying Kaladin is like a "rock formation" is definitely different, though, so there's a possible point there. On the other hand, I am still at work and don't have my book, so I can't tell how many times she actually refers to either one of them in such flowery terms. Speaking of flowers, and wildlife, since those are what she shows the most interest in--wouldn't the argument be so much stronger if she said, I don't know, "Kaladin was ruggedly handsome, and intense, like a chasmfiend"? The only times that she seems excited by rocks at all is the crem buildup on the Shattered Plains; everything else is always alive. So, I still think this is, at best, incredibly minor evidence that we can, if Shallan and Kaladin become a thing (god forbid), look back and see it as foreshadowing. It just doesn't seem like enough to see it as evidence on its own; only, maybe, after the fact.

Edited June 9, 2014 by kaellok

MadMartigan · June 9, 2014

I do not think Shallan/Adolin have much in common with Vin/Elend. Vin was a low born orphan skaa whereas Shallan may have been raised in a dysfunctional impoverish family, she still had a life of privilege and she was still of high enough rank to be considered to marry prince Adolin. As for Elend, well he is a rich bookish heir with little combat skills.... Not much in common with Adolin except for the "rich" and "heir" part.

Er...I wasn't comparing them with V&E. I said, as of WoR, there hasn't really been any interesting tensions between the two. And honestly, my point was that the interactions between Shallan and Adolin have been boring. It's been swooning and "on my, he's hot" on Shallan's part whenever she's around Adolin. Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Attraction typically starts with the physical. But that's all it's been so far. That, and stock personality traits. My point was that I just found it intriguing that for all the supposed crushing on Adolin for his looks and his goodly nature and that he's her betrothed, she struggles to come up with ways to describe him (and she's been around him more) than Kaladin, who she internally describes in great detail after confessing to herself she doesn't know how to. So much in fact, she blocks Adolin out completely. I just found that interesting is all.

I think the point everyone can agree with is there is no definitive textual support either way for who Shallan cares most for. So far, we know for certain that both the fools care for her, Kaladin only recently. And I don't think it's sisterly affection poor Kal is aiming more when he admits to her beauty and focuses on her red hair, wants to catch her attention, then thinks of her randomly toward the end.

And, while we may not see the extreme vim and vigor that you seem to want her to display regarding Adolin,

Once again confusing what I've read, mate. All I've basically said is that Shallan/Kaladin interactions in the book have been far more entertaining and yes, I'll agree with you, romance is Sanderson's weakest part in writing. Much like J.K. Rowling.

We see Kaladin mentioning how well Adolin and Shallan fit together.

We get no context of how they fit together though. Though that scene does spark some jealousy in Kaladin, so at the very least, kernels of attraction are forming on Kaladin's end as he admits he could hate that they fit together. And I'll argue just how well they actually fit together. Much like the dreadful Ron/Hermione saga of laughability in that pairing. No, the extreme of them just not fitting together isn't nearly as strong, but from my reading, Adolin/Shallan just don't fit the way Kaladin/Shallan fit. Like I admitted, if romance is going to be a talking point in the book, I want something interesting out of it, otherwise it seems rather unnecessary. You are free to think the opposite of me. No one reads the text the same way. But as I've read it, the more intriguing pairing is the you don't like.

But Shallan is, what, physically attracted to him? Just more intensely than to Adolin? That's your argument, right?

I've not said that at all and I apologize if you've misconstrued my arguments. My point in that section was that Shallan typically focuses on Adolin's beauty (understandable yes, especially considering her cloistered upbringing and inexperience or really, lack-thereof entirely in romantic entanglements). My point was more toward when describing Adolin's good qualities, her monologues have generally been very quick, using stock personality traits. As I said "genuine", "noble", "kind." When she considers Kal, she uses "passion" a lot to describe him. And again, when Shallan had that monologue after expecting verbal quips from Adolin, she went into heavy detail describing the type of person Kaladin was. My point throughout has been "well huh, that's interesting. She confesses to not know what it is about Kal, then goes on to describe him anyway, while using very generic terms to describe her betrothed."

The only times I brought up physical attraction between the two was how Shallan used more natureesque terminology. Just found it interesting.

What, exactly, does Kaladin offer her? A target for her to spar with? She already has enough pairs of boots, I think.

Rather snide. You're talking the shipping way too seriously. Well, as it happens, I'd say someone to actually confide in. She's been in a great many tense situations and not laid bear her dark secrets to anyone before and does so with Kal? Does that make him special? Who's to say. But she did and that means something. And honestly, you can debate it all day long, but from my POV, she'd more herself around Kal than Adolin. But again, the actual screen time to make any definitive conclusions either way is painfully small, like a small sample size in baseball. Which is why i prefaced my 1st post by admitting it's probably WAAAAAYYY too early for anything. I can't imagine their being much time for actual marriages anytime soon. As a Radiant, Shallan has far more pressing matters. Though I found it intriguing when Pattern said it was time, Shallan pleaded to be able to keep "pretending". W/e that means, I'm not sure.

We disagree so much on the interactions between Kal/Shal and Ado/Shal, that I guess it shouldn't be a surprise we disagree on Rand/Min Rand/Elayne

Well stated. Definitely hammers home how differently people view and read things authors write. I agree with everything you said on Rand/Elayne. Most contrived, troped relationship in WoT. Love at 1st sight with princess. Rather annoying. So it we disagree with them there, makes sense we disagree about TSLA relationships.

I actually felt that he and her actually had the most meaningful and matured relationship.

Word. Heck, Min being around Rand is probably what kept the sorry sucker from completely unhinging far sooner than he did. That relationship definitely felt more genuine, though Aviendha was the most. She was definitely the girl he tried the hardest and longest in understanding who she was.

They do not have love at the moment, we haven't gotten there yet.

It's infatuation and lust all around for the tricycle at this point. Not been around each other nearly long enough for those conclusions.

i feel that the text shows Shallan being pretty independent of any "care" that Adolin could provide her. Perhaps you meant something else?

I thought the text made it pretty clear Shallan doesn't want anything 'caring' for or 'controlling' her. I see care, I assume it means "to mind someone". Shallan made that clear when Adolin professed to protect her. She immediately stiffened up. As opposed to when Kaladin said he'd divert the chasm fiend, her reaction was for him not to leave her alone and get himself killed.

So if two characters are written to have chemistry and conflict together, then the fact that they are leads should not matter one jot. I can appreciate your opinion of not liking Shalladin because you find them boring to read. I cannot appreciate your opinion just because they are both "lead characters"

Preach it, mate. What matters is the relationship in the context of the story. Every 'story' has been retold ad-nausea as this point. What matters a story compelling is how well the characters are written and how well you add new things to tropes used over and over again.

I think the argument is that she spends more time thinking about the kind of handsome that Kaladin is, than the kind of handsome Adolin is, and that the comparisions for Kaladin are more in line with the things she appreciates about her passion for nature. She takes more time to craft a description for Kaladin's looks than she does Adolin's. Now, whether you think this is an indication of her preference for one of the other, I couldn't say.

That was exactly my argument. Thanks for simplifying it. Makes more sense. But I'll add to that, again, it isn't just physical attraction that Shallan spends more thought on with Kal than Adolin. It's the personality descriptions as well.

So far complex, thought out descriptions > generic personality tropes like "kind."

I would hope my betrothed, loved one, gf, what not, could come up with a bit more than that to describe me. That's throwaway terminology right there.

Speaking of flowers, and wildlife, since those are what she shows the most interest in--wouldn't the argument be so much stronger if she said, I don't know, "Kaladin was ruggedly handsome, and intense, like a chasmfiend"?

That'd be more like an insult than a compliment. Those chasmfiends looks fugly as all get out. I think you need to look at her descriptions in the context of what they mean in regards to Kal. She put more effort into describing in what ways Kaladin's is passionate, stoic, and steady, and controlled. "Like the rocks and wind"

Heck, I think Kal would love the metaphors Shallan used in the right context.

Edited June 9, 2014 by MadMartigan

Aleksiel · June 9, 2014

I'd prefer someone kind, genuine and noble over a passionate formation of rocks, but that's me.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aleksiel

June 9, 2014

You guys have been busy today! So much catching up! I dunno if I'll have time to respond properly before being forced into cooking that supper. Gee so much quote.... I do not know if I'll be able to phrase all I want to say. So here it goes, I may come back later tonight.

Maxal:

1. Totally agree, Adolin is 100% into Shallan for probably all of the right reasons. Where we diverge is that I believe it is likely that this is also what is going to set him up for major character development and pain. He will be crushed emotionally by her when she realizes that he is not ultimately what she wants, and that coupled with the emotional distance he'll put between himself and everyone else over his concealed murder of Sadeas will be what breaks him and opens him up to his very own spren. (or so I can hope)

2. So can you explain to me what you mean here by using the term "forced"? Is it that you felt the writing itself was forced, or is it that you feel that the characters felt "forced" to share the secrets that they did to each other? If it is the latter, can you provide some reasoning or examples for this? From my memory, Shallan drives most of the conversations in the chasm while traveling, mainly because she doesn't enjoy Kaladin's brooding silence, and she typically pokes fun at him to prod him into engaging her. Perhaps this is what your referring to? Other than that, with regards to their shared stories (his time as a slave, her childhood and murder of father) that interaction starts out with him stating Sadeas hung him up in a highstorm. She asks (again, asks) for him to tell her that story, to help take her mind of the storm. Kaladin didn't have to give it to her, she certainly wasn't demanding it. Is that forced? I didn't think so, but again, you may have read it differently. And her response after he tells her his story? He certainly wasn't looking for anything from her, wasn't expecting any response from her, and yet, she gave it up freely. Is that forced? I don't think so, but if you have a different interpretation, I'd like to hear your reasoning why.

3. Kind of glad the WoT parallel was brought up, because it's actually helping me get a better grasp of just how different people perceive things that an author produces. We disagree so much on the interactions between Kal/Shal and Ado/Shal, that I guess it shouldn't be a surprise we disagree on Rand/Min Rand/Elayne. Just funny how these things work. I will only comment that Elayne's first interaction with Rand was also very brief (even more so, Rand actually spent a whole day and almost a night in Baerlon with Min hanging around, compared to a single 20 min garden scene in Camelyn). Then they have the walks and flirting at the beginning of Shadow Rising, but that also read to me as being very superficial at that point. Then after that, they have no interactions again until he and all three women are together for...ahem, things. Min and Aviendha scenes with Rand were more entertaining to read to me. Regardless how "unexpected" or "dropped on the reader" Min and Rand were, by the end of the series, I actually felt that he and her actually had the most meaningful and matured relationship. (but they also had spent the most time together...so there is that too)

4. I would argue it is too early to say that Shallan and Adolin are giving each other..."love". Would say the same thing about Shallan and Kaladin. Attraction between Shallan and Adolin, playfulness, flirting, those are the things that I see in the text, and are all certainly a good start, but I see the word "love" thrown around at this stage and I wince. They do not have love at the moment, we haven't gotten there yet. Also, can you provide me an example of what you mean by Adolin proving "care" to Shallan? Just want to know how you are defining this so I can better understand your view. An example from the text would help with this too. From my interpretation, i feel that the text shows Shallan being pretty independent of any "care" that Adolin could provide her. Perhaps you meant something else?

5. K, so here is where I state that it really annoys me when people say phrases like "lead male character lead female character getting together, ick, boring". I say this annoys me because I'm looking at it from a writing perspective. The fact that both characters are "leads" isn't what would make a relationship boring to read. It is the writing of their characters and their interactions that make or break the interest for the reader. Storytelling uses tropes and reuses tropes. All. The. Time. Humans in any and every culture throughout history do this, and it is what helps us recognize and appreciate stories that are told. The familiar themes, character types, tropes, plot lines are what we as the story listener/reader/watcher identify with and relate to. The key is to take those things that are familiar, and apply a different spin that makes it fresh. (one of the first lessons from Writing Excuses, "give me the same...but different". So if two characters are written to have chemistry and conflict together, then the fact that they are leads should not matter one jot. I can appreciate your opinion of not liking Shalladin because you find them boring to read. I cannot appreciate your opinion just because they are both "lead characters"

1. We do not diverge. I actually agree with you. I WANT Adolin and Shallan to work, but I can see it will most likely fail in the next book in order to give Adolin some character growth. There has been to much ink spend on his insecurities about relationships to not use it in the following books.

2. Forced by the circumstances. They did not share because they liked each other and they wanted to get to know themselves better: they shared because they were dumped into a life or death situation and when know how those generally trigger confidences. Shallan and Adolin never had the chance to have such talk. I have made the point a few times over that Shallan has not much to lose in opening up to Kal, but she has everything to lose by doing the same with Adolin. True Kal opens up, but they were trapped in a chasm during a highstorm and he was hurt! You cannot honestly compare this situation to any Shallan and Adolin may have been it.

3. I disliked Min and Rand as characters so hmmm yes I may have been negatively bias towards not liking their relationship.... I disliked Elayne as well, but I was fond of Aviendha. I may not have been partial here.

4. I agree it is too early to know if Shallan truly loves Adolin.... Adolin however is crushing on her, hard. Is it love? Hard to tell, but the way he behaves around her is telling. He blushes whenever she gets close, he is somewhat shy with physical closeness, he thinks of her in favorable terms not related to her physique: he thinks she is smart, amazing, wonderful, etc. If we look back into WoK to read about Adolin's previous courtships: he never, never describes any of them this way. He thinks they are pretty, yes, but it ends there. He is bored to death with most of them and non of these women try to get to know him: most were to busy hearing themselves talking. Also, when Danlan reaches for him, he does not shy away, he does not blush. He does with Shallan and it is telling: he crushes on her. He's got the butterflies and all when she is around. He organizes a fake chasmfield hunt just to please her and he the whole time happily bubbling around her like a love sick puppy, so yes I think it is pretty fair to assume prince Adolin is in love. He cares for her in the way he pretty much lets her decide on everything. He wants to protect her because yes 99.9% of girls would want to protected after being dump into a chasm. If this is not care, then I do not know what it is. Considering they are just dating, it's pretty much all the care we can expect. As for Shallan, yes, it is more obscure. I agree she may not want any care, she wants providing for her family.

5. I think Kal and Shallan together would be boring and not just because they are the main protagonists. I believe their dynamic is more akin to a sibling to sibling one than a lover to lover one. Turning them into a couple would be painful to read. The bickering is funny, but take it into a romantic relationship and it becomes perpetual fighting. As for the main protagonist part, I feel it would take drain too much of the story towards them if they become an item. I wish we would spent more time with the Kohlin family in general and less with Kal and Shallan for the next few books. However, if they become the power couple, I do not see that happening. I also do not feel their relationship is "fresh" as you state it. I think it is horribly cliche... The two people that starts up by hating each other, fighting only to realize how perfect they are for each other.... Gee that's pretty much the scenario of every girl movie ever written...... However, I understand how you feel about it. I just happen to feel differently.

I'd prefer someone kind, genuine and noble over a passionate formation of rocks, but that's me.

LOL. You make my day.

MadMartigan · June 9, 2014

I think Kal and Shallan together would be boring and not just because they are the main protagonists. I believe their dynamic is more akin to a sibling to sibling one than a lover to lover one. Turning them into a couple would be painful to read. The bickering is funny, but take it into a romantic relationship and it becomes perpetual fighting. As for the main protagonist part, I feel it would take drain too much of the story towards them if they become an item

I've never gotten this argument. Drain too much of the story? When has BS EVER written that much about romance? Heck, when Vin/Elend get together, BS really doesn't use much screen time at all about their relationship. I think you must be using examples of other novels where romance has gotten in the way. BS has yet to show that he gives way to plot in favor of romance. I've yet to see it.

And as for "mains" getting together....Still don't get that complaint. It'll only be boring if BS's writing makes it boring. Adolin/Shallan could be written in an incredibly stiff, boring manner as well of predictable arranged marriage variety.

Take Castle for example. Stana Katic and Nathan Filion have great chemistry and banter and that relationship hasn't gotten boring in the least bit to me.

It's all a matter of perspective anyway. You clearly hated Min/Rand and clearly dislike Shallan/Adolin and I and others are the opposite.

We'd be a boring chull human race if we all agreed all the time and liked every little same thing.

And again with the siblings thing. I still don't this. At the very least, we can all agree that the tricycle has hardly spent enough time in each other's presence to even KNOW how their relationship would mature.

Shallan may grow to dislike her possible match isn't the type to match wits with her. Maybe she thinks it too boring.

Maybe Shallan would be overwhelmed by Kaladin's intense passion about a great many things and that wouldn't work.

Way too early to know. Shallan and Kaladin's interactions could mature to the point that their verbal sparing is just playful.

I mean, since the chasm, they've hardly interacted to know what they'd be like. So that point is rather disingenuous.

The point is, both relationships honestly need time to grow first. I'll admit that straight up despite my preferences made by the textual evidence and what I find intriguing about the story as is.

And kind, genuine, and noble? Sounds rather like a boring stick figure with blah personality traits to me. ( I think this isn't the case, but poking fun at the sass).

The only SURE thing we know is that BOTH Kal and Adolin are really digging them some redheaded foxy fox that comes pre-packaged with sass and attitude. She's a new type of female for the both of them.

No one can say for sure what Shallan exactly feels for either. So far all we have to go on are that she finds both attractive, good men, with descriptions being more thought out in regards to Kal.

Edited June 9, 2014 by MadMartigan

Aleksiel · June 9, 2014

And kind, genuine, and noble? Sounds rather like a boring stick figure with blah personality traits to me. ( I think this isn't the case, but poking fun at the sass).

Still better than Kal's description. The whole combination of passion, quips and being unchangeable by nothing and noone vibe (that Shallan gets from him) doesn't sound like a good relationship material. More like a future of intense verbal fights followed by physical ways to reconcile (doesn't sound like the right word, but I can't think of a better one, hopefully you get my point anyway).

Now, this isn't necessarily the future of their relationship, but despite what many people like you say, the only relationship between Kal and Shallan that I think can work in the long run is a friendship.

MadMartigan · June 10, 2014

Again, that's your interpretation. I just as easily see Shallan and Adolin crashing and burning in spectacular fashion. You wanna talk about easy? Nothing easier than the start to their 'relationship.' And despite everything on both sides, these are characters who've spent a grand total of a couple weeks, if that, in each other's presence. Hard to judge ANY relationship on that, particularly on Shallan and Kaladin's end considering they are BOTH inexperienced and BOTH relatively young compared to Adolin who is in his mid 20s and been with countless women. Shallan and Kal meanwhile, if memory serves, are only 17 and 19 respectively.

I mean, rust. As a college kid not too long ago, I thought I'd fallen madly in love with a girl (and it happened rather easily as well and yes, it was physical to begin with as well) and rust did that fail spectacularly. I'm talking fire and brimstone level of fail. And we worked together. Talk about dreadful radiation fallout.

And seriously, this made all the more apparent by Adolin essentially serving as rebound fodder from Kabsal. I mean, this is a girl, with textual evidence, that is easily drawn in by males that show interest in her. She doesn't think much about anything despite their interest, and part of that is youth and inexperience. And partly her sheltered life.

We'll see though, but it's unlikely we'll know much until halfway through the 3rd book, if not the 4th or 5th.

I can admit, and I don't see what's so difficult on your end, that anything can and will happen between these characters.

Only BS knows the, hopefully, small romantic ARC to this part of the story. And help us all he knows what he's doing, and does it well, without needless drama.

kaellok · June 10, 2014

And again with the siblings thing. I still don't this. At the very least, we can all agree that the tricycle has hardly spent enough time in each other's presence to even KNOW how their relationship would mature.

Speaking specifically to the sibling-type relationship: Both lost brother that played an integral role in their early lives. For Kaladin, Tien was always able to cheer him up, no matter what. Shallan, too, seems able to cheer him up, without even trying, even in pretty desperate and horrible circumstances. For Shallan, Heleran was the brother willing to attract the ire of demons so that others may live and prosper. Kaladin certainly fits this role (and the way that he goes about protecting her is different than what Adolin seemed to be implying at the time; Adolin's was an implied denial of agency, while Kaladin's way is to be so tempting a target that the bad guys can't help but attack him--even when he's not running with a bridge.)

Each of them fits what the other lost when their brother was killed. Personally, I would find it particularly...weird...how Kaladin remarks on how Shallan is able to make him smile, compare it to how Tien could do the same thing, and then decide he's attracted to her. There's something off about that, to me, even if it's not big. Certainly, though, it would strengthen any pseudo-sibling bond they form instead of just being...weird.

MadMartigan · June 10, 2014

I think that's your bias taking hold.

Honestly, in Kaladin's life, how many people have made him smile? Been able to cheer him up? The man has been through one hell after another.

His brother, so far, has been the only one to make him smile.

Using your argument, ANY female that is able to cheer up Kal as successfully as Tien, automatically makes that potential coupling creepy.

It's almost a catch-22 you've argued yourself into. Some weird logical fallacy that makes any female who cheers Kal up, into a sister figure.

Now THAT is odd.

I think it's incredibly complimentary of Shallan for Kal to say that Shallan has been the only one to cheer him up as successfully as Tien.

And hell, using your argument, me wanting to find a future wife figure that's as generous and caring as MY mother....is also creepy. That's just patently false. I just wanted a genuine, good, person to spend my life with. Someone who is my best friend, confidant, and lover. That's the dream.

The fact is, humans compare other humans to humans they already know. That's where their base knowledge and experience is with. You aren't going to compare the person you've just met, to a stranger you haven't. That just makes no sense.

The easy, unexplainable way Shallan brings joy and smiles to doom and gloom Kaladin should be reason enough to think there's potential.

Reading several more books of doom and gloom Kaladin would be incredibly boring. That's stagnant character development. And BS is a better writer than that. All of his characters usually change in dynamic ways.

Don't see why Shallan, in a progressively more romantic help, changing Kaladin is such a problem.

Kaladin and Shallan growing because of each other is not a development that is mutually exclusive. Their growth can happen, and yes together.

Just because two people are broken, doesn't mean they can't form a hole, can't still learn from each other. That's an incredibly pessimistic view point that's doesn't hold its weight in salt. The ones who really have to work at it anyway, imo, are generally able to weather things more. If it's too easy, you get complacent. Take it for granted.

And I've always been intrigued by relationships that can't possibly work, end up working better than ones that, superficially, appear they should work like a well oiled machine. Means theirs hope for anyone. And Shallan/Adolin looks like, superficially, it could work like a well oiled machine.

And again, there's nothing interesting, imo, in literature, about a romantic relationship that doesn't require some extra elbow grease to make work. Which is why, if its Shallan/Adolin, I'd prefer to way on the backburner. BS isn't skilled enough at romance to juggle such drama as a 3-way emo fest. Few, if any, are.

Edited June 10, 2014 by MadMartigan

kaellok · June 10, 2014

No, my argument is actually very specific. The fact that Kaladin compares Shallan's instant ability to cheer him up to Tien's ability to instantly cheer him up signals to me that there is chance for a greater platonic relationship than a romantic one. That's it. No add five, divide by two, multiply the result by 12 needed. It just ends at what I said.

By your statement, if you are looking for a woman as generous and caring as your mother, and when you find one your instant, immediate reaction is "You're as generous and caring as my mother was!" even (especially?) during the early days of knowing her, then yes--creepy.

Kaladin being doom and gloom is boring and terrible. Kaladin being doom and gloom any time Shallan or Tien isn't around is also boring and terrible. Shallan 'fixing' Kaladin's boring doom and gloom is also terrible. Someone (whether Shallan or someone else) helping Kaladin actually get better isn't, so that's what I'd like to see. Not someone whose presence acts like a drug that wears off the second she's gone, or whose hug and kiss suddenly lifts the depression he suffers from. Shallan, by the way, is absolutely not required to be the person who helps Kaladin. Hell, Adolin is even helping in that regard--painfully slowly, yes, but still there. What Kaladin seems to need to alleviate some of tha are friends, and their gender is largely irrelevant.

No idea where you're going with the rest of your comments, specifically regarding the ones after the immediate end of what I've addressed. I don't necessarily disagree, but they seem unconnected with any of the other argumentation occurring, so I'll ignore them.

MadMartigan · June 10, 2014

No, my argument is actually very specific. The fact that Kaladin compares Shallan's instant ability to cheer him up to Tien's ability to instantly cheer him up signals to me that there is chance for a greater platonic relationship than a romantic one. That's it. No add five, divide by two, multiply the result by 12 needed. It just ends at what I said.

Sorry, but no. I'm not giving you that. You most certainly did create a logical fallacy and you're pointedly ignoring it.

I asked who else Kaladin could possibly compare Shallan's ability to make him smile so easily?

If you want to actually have a rebuttal to my argument, then tell me. His life, especially the later half of his 19 years, has been known little in the way of people who make him smile other than his brother. So of course the logical comparison of happiness is going to be Tien.

The only other logical comparison is Syl.

Honestly, you're trying WAAAAAAY too hard to go out of your way to prove either A:) Shallan and Kaladin is creepy or B;) It's chance of happening is impossible. That's irritating. I may as well debate this with a rock. Or my TV.

By your statement, if you are looking for a woman as generous and caring as your mother, and when you find one your instant, immediate reaction is "You're as generous and caring as my mother was!" even (especially?) during the early days of knowing her, then yes--creepy.

Now you're just being childish. There's no instant reaction. There's a going into it: "I rather like these stock personality traits in a girl, because that means she's a quality person."

And seriously WHY WOULDN'T Kaladin want a potential life partner who could cheer him up at the drop of a hat. Shallan doesn't do it in the same way as Tien. Not in the slightest. If she does, I challenge you to point out textual evidence backing that argument up. Otherwise, you're just making it up to convince yourself.

Holy hell ballz. I don't remember Shallan using the same ways of Tien to cheer Kaladin up. Is Shallan suddenly wearing a Tien illusion?

My god man, they are two different characters. The only comparison Kaladin is making is the ease with which Shallan makes him smile. The only basis of easily smiling that Kaladin has to go on is Tien.

There's no one else.

No one.

Not Laral.

He had no real childhood friends growing up.

Clearly no one in his original brigade.

There's Tarah, but he's mentioned precious little of her and no one has any idea what his relationship to her was(is).

He only has Syl. And Syl is a spren that's a manifestation of his own thoughts in combination with other things.

Now tell me you aren't letting your bias override everything, because it's plainly evident how hot and hard you trying to convince me of some non-existent creepiness factor regarding Kal and Shal. In fact, I find it mildly disturbing you're trying so hard to put them into a sibling relationship. You really must be deathly afraid of a Kal and Shal relationship.

I honestly don't give two craps who ends with who as long as it makes sense and isn't written terribly. I'm a realist. What happens, happens. And I've based my entire argument around the actual source material and the source material tells me there's 'something' more to Kaladin and Shallan. What is that? I've no idea yet, but their interactions and descriptions of each other tell me something may be under the surface, possibly romantic, that they haven't realized. They may never realize it. They may ignore it. It may be a flash in the pan, then over thing, on to different people or back to people.

I don't presume to know.

But I'm not arrogant or silly enough to form some weird, creepy sibling dynamic of Kaladin becoming the older brother figure to Shallan that Heleron should have been.

Now that's weird as ballz.

At any rate, I think I've debated all I can with you. I clearly can't get you to acknowledge my points, so there's not any other real purpose to this but to waste time for shits and giggles.

I'll dive into some of the other topics instead.

June 10, 2014

I've never gotten this argument. Drain too much of the story? When has BS EVER written that much about romance? Heck, when Vin/Elend get together, BS really doesn't use much screen time at all about their relationship. I think you must be using examples of other novels where romance has gotten in the way. BS has yet to show that he gives way to plot in favor of romance. I've yet to see it.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not worried SA will become a romance story about Shallan and Kaladin. However, I am worried having the two main protagonists together will drain the attention from other equally (if not more) interesting characters. I agree Mistborn was not a love story, but the story WAS about Vin and Elend. Other characters got little screen time with the exception of Spook and Sazeth at the end. Tensoon as well had a decent enough number of chapters, but I would have taken more. My point is I do not want to have more than half of SA chapters being about Shallan and Kaladin and having them as a couple scares me on that aspect. It could be I am totally wrong and BS would write an amazing story with the two of them as a couple, but right now, after reading WoR, this is how I feel. I feel I have read enough about Kal and Shallan. I want to read more about the Kohlins, more about Adolin, more about Dalinar, more about Jasnah, more about Renarin and even more about Elhokar This however is how I, as a person, feel about the story. Other people have other preferences and that is just fine.

It's all a matter of perspective anyway. You clearly hated Min/Rand and clearly dislike Shallan/Adolin and I and others are the opposite.

I hated Min/Rand, yes. Last time I check, I was not the only one. I disliked Min's character because I did not like the use of her vision as a plot devise which probably triggered my dislike of her relationship with Rand. Starting from book 6 and onwards, I disliked Rand as a character. Brandon managed to save him for me at the end. On the other hand, I absolutely adore Shallan/Adolin as a couple as I love their interaction, even if they come out childish at times. Overall, I am quite crazy over Adolin in general so I tend to take his side.

Still better than Kal's description. The whole combination of passion, quips and being unchangeable by nothing and noone vibe (that Shallan gets from him) doesn't sound like a good relationship material. More like a future of intense verbal fights followed by physical ways to reconcile (doesn't sound like the right word, but I can't think of a better one, hopefully you get my point anyway).

Now, this isn't necessarily the future of their relationship, but despite what many people like you say, the only relationship between Kal and Shallan that I think can work in the long run is a friendship.

Love your description Having Shallan and Kal into love/hate/passionate physical contacts is something I may get into. For a while, not on the long run though.

Again, that's your interpretation. I just as easily see Shallan and Adolin crashing and burning in spectacular fashion. You wanna talk about easy? Nothing easier than the start to their 'relationship.' And despite everything on both sides, these are characters who've spent a grand total of a couple weeks, if that, in each other's presence. Hard to judge ANY relationship on that, particularly on Shallan and Kaladin's end considering they are BOTH inexperienced and BOTH relatively young compared to Adolin who is in his mid 20s and been with countless women. Shallan and Kal meanwhile, if memory serves, are only 17 and 19 respectively.

Kaladin is 20. Shallan is 17 and Adolin is 22. He is not in his mid-twenties, but in his early twenties and he is mostly inexperienced. We had a whole discussion on Adolin's failed relationships a short while ago. Bottom line is Adolin may have dated numerous women, his dating experience can be reduced as walking hand in hand around camp with a horde of minders behind them. He is a prince and he has a LOT of pressure concerning the dating issue. On one side, you have the entire Alethki society who pushes him to get married, I mean how many comments to we have concerning his matrimonial status? On the other side, you have Dalinar who tells him to make the right choice, the find true love. In the middle, you have a very confused young man who wonders if each pretty things he sees may be THE one. He does not know how to keep a women, how to behave with one. He is charming and handsome, but he is clueless on the long term relationship part. We see it when we read his POV.

Now Kaladin is far from inexperienced! Have you forgotten Tarah? Tarah whom he held in his arms? Tarah whom we suspect he may have scored a home-run with? Tarah whom he chased away by not admitting he cared for her (as much as we can gather)? In the love and relationship department, Kaladin is more experience than Adolin. Gee do you think Adolin could have been bold enough to do much more than a kiss on the cheek with any of his courtships? If he did, he wouldn't be so shy around Shallan. He is a prince, he has to stay prude until mariage, especially with Dalinar the pious watching over.

I mean, rust. As a college kid not too long ago, I thought I'd fallen madly in love with a girl (and it happened rather easily as well and yes, it was physical to begin with as well) and rust did that fail spectacularly. I'm talking fire and brimstone level of fail. And we worked together. Talk about dreadful radiation fallout.

Except that Adolin has never fallen in love with any of the previous girls. He does not know one damnation thing about love. How could he? Most lighteyes probably get married by convenience and not by love. Dalinar is a weird creature to let his son have a say in the matter. Most people believe he should not let him chose. He probably has little memory of his parents as a couple, his aunt and uncle had an unhappy marriage, his cousin is married to a depraved women he hates and that's it.

Shallan actually is the first one he actually likes. Why? Because she is the first one who treats him as a person, who is interested in him, who makes him laugh. These things are important and right it tells me they may be a good match. Maybe they won't, but by the end of WoR, I am routing for them as a couple.

Now this is getting a long reply so I won't quote it, but kaellok: BRAVO I agree about the Shallan/Tien and the Kal/Helaran parallel.

Shallan's Relationship

Shallan + ????? 564 members have voted

1. Who will Shallan end the series in a relationship with?

Recommended Posts

digitalbusker he/him

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Seloun

Seerow

Jess

Aether he/him

Guest

Left he/him

Guest

theravenchilde she/her

kaellok he/him

Jo and the Bush all/any

kaellok he/him

Guest

kaellok he/him

kaellok he/him

Guest

Recently Browsing 0 members

Shallan + ?????
564 members have voted