Shallan's Relationship

[Bobobagins]

I think it will be interesting to see how Jasnah reacts to the new Shallan and if she keeps pushing for her and Adolin to get married or reconsiders the need for it now that circumstances have shifted.

[Seloun]

Hah, you fools shipping Shaladin!  It's obvious that the ship should be Syladin.  Jokes aside I think that Shaladin is going to be not very likely in the third Stormlight Archive book due to Kaladin flying to Hearthstone.  He probably won't be even near Shallan for at least half the book.

 

I'd personally guess that it'd be almost the entirety of the third book that Kaladin and Shallan will be separated. There's a ton of stuff that needs to happen in Alethkar and I suspect that's where Jasnah will end up as well (simply because there's too many viewpoint locations otherwise).

However, being separated probably makes their relationship more likely than not. If they were together, the relationship would likely progress too quickly. Also, it's hard to play the Helaran card if Kaladin is conveniently around to explain his side of the story. A five minute, honest conversation resolves that plotline pretty cold. He has to be out of touch for that to matter from Shallan's perspective. I fully expect that she'll find out shortly after he leaves, and will spend most of the next book gnawing at it. It wouldn't take much beyond a somewhat distorted description from Mraize of what happened with Helaran, a slightly more detailed but biased description of what happened in Sadeas's camp from Gaz, and some buzzing from Pattern about Honorspren to make her feel betrayed by Kaladin. The problem is that none of that really generates a conflict if she doesn't have something invested with Kaladin.

 

Ultimately, that's the bottom line - the narrative demands that she has something invested with Kaladin in order for the 'stumbling blocks' to mean anything. Kaladin has to leave to allow Helaran's death to matter. And since Kaladin has to leave, there's no further opportunities for Shallan and Kaladin to develop a stronger relationship; ergo the chasm scene and hints to a developed relationship.

 

I'm sure Syl will have words with Kaladin in the next book about how she feels about a woman who could bond with a Cryptic, too...so I'm sure Syladin will be a factor (if not necessarily exactly romantically).

[Morsk]

Where is that quote from? I can't place it (note: I only have the Kindle edition). It sounds familiar...and I seems to recall that I assumed it was from the Parshendi perspective (note the only missing PoV character of the first half is Estonai).

It's from the back cover of Way of Kings. I used to think it was parshmen, but now I think it's spren. Or possibly one of the secret societies; there are so many now! But I think spren.

[Seloun]

It's from the back cover of Way of Kings. I used to think it was parshmen, but now I think it's spren. Or possibly one of the secret societies; there are so many now! But I think spren.

 

Ah, okay. I could believe it's from the spren perspective, which would also explain why Eshonai doesn't show up as one of the ones to watch. It doesn't really sound like one of the secret societies; it seems too specific for the Diagram, and I think it would require the 'us' to be more inclusive than 'we' to have real weight.

[Paradox]

@dhazellouise

 

I really like your in depth posts about Shallan's relationships. But I find that after reading them I come to a different conclusion than you. While I agree that Kaladin and Shallan will be more or less friends, who are attracted to each other, the next book. I think they will progress beyond that to a proper relationship by the book's end. From the last two books in the Stormlight Archive it is apparent that the Great God Brandon is not a fan of beating around the bush about issues. He has nicely resolved most major conflicts that arise in a given book are also quite soundly resolved during that given book.

 

take, for example, The coming out of the Radiants. Kaladin & Shallan only discovered what they could be at the end of WoK, and by the end of WoR the Radiants have been refounded (though there are only 4 of them + Jasnah & Lift). Similarly, Jasnah vanishes at the start of WoR and comes back at the end of it. See the pattern here?

 

For this reason I think that should the Shallan/Kaladin relationship be on, it will be realised by the end of Stormlight Archive 3. I am a fan of Brandon's track record when it comes to resolving many major plot points in each book, yet still leaving some even bigger plot points for the next book to solve.

[dhazellouise]

@dhazellouise

 

I really like your in depth posts about Shallan's relationships. But I find that after reading them I come to a different conclusion than you. While I agree that Kaladin and Shallan will be more or less friends, who are attracted to each other, the next book. I think they will progress beyond that to a proper relationship by the book's end. From the last two books in the Stormlight Archive it is apparent that the Great God Brandon is not a fan of beating around the bush about issues. He has nicely resolved most major conflicts that arise in a given book are also quite soundly resolved during that given book.

 

take, for example, The coming out of the Radiants. Kaladin & Shallan only discovered what they could be at the end of WoK, and by the end of WoR the Radiants have been refounded (though there are only 4 of them + Jasnah & Lift). Similarly, Jasnah vanishes at the start of WoR and comes back at the end of it. See the pattern here?

 

For this reason I think that should the Shallan/Kaladin relationship be on, it will be realised by the end of Stormlight Archive 3. I am a fan of Brandon's track record when it comes to resolving many major plot points in each book, yet still leaving some even bigger plot points for the next book to solv

Hmn, Good point. If Shallan/ Kaladin will be an item by the end of the book three, Brandon will probably used Helaran's death to drive the wedge between them in Book four...hmn...

[Paradox]

See? I'm thinking that more and more this will be the likely outcome. There are only two reasons for keeping the fate of Heleran hidden from Shallan, either its brought up while Kaladin is away and it drives a wedge in now or its used after they become a thing. The first generates much less conflict between the two, given that whatever they have going on is in its infancy, and would make for much less character development. The second causing a much greater challange for the two of them to overcome, and could be a catalyst for even greater development of their characters. Specifically Shallan.

Think what it would do to her to know that she is in love with her brother's killer. Perhaps she will come to think it is wrong to be in love with Kaladin with that knowledge. Perhaps the fact that she does still love Kaladin after knowing of this will be another truth for her advancement as a Lightweaver.

 

Its all about dem character arcs baby.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Paradox

[Laryna]

I rather hoped that Kaladin wouldn't fall for Shallan. I mean, Shallan is not bad, but Kaladin is, well, he's STORMBLESSED ! There's a lot of difference in their awesomness levels....

[Natans]

I rather hoped that Kaladin wouldn't fall for Shallan. I mean, Shallan is not bad, but Kaladin is, well, he's STORMBLESSED ! There's a lot of difference in their awesomness levels....

 

 Before you begin Lift are to young

[Carlos Stormblessed]

I think Paradox's page 3 "article" was spot on. Kaladin and Shallan (although I didn't want to admit it) have real potential where Adolin and Shallan do not. I also don't think there will be a love triangle, or if there is it will be short lived. I hope/ think Adolin will find someone that is hard for him to handle. Most of Shallan's and Adolin's interactions have been her pleasing him or attempting to use him in some way. If you compare that with the interactions with Kaladin, there really is no question in my mind that Kal/Shal will happen.

As I mentioned earlier I could see Adolin finding someone not of noble birth and falling for her etc. 

 

Also people keep mentioning all the hardships Kal and Shal will have to go through (Kal killing Shal's brother, opposite spren etc) I think those things will not only bring them closer as they overcome them, but be exciting writing points in the story.

 

After the WOK I thought a Jasnah/ Kaladin thing could happen, but I am pretty confident Kal and Shal will make all kinds of awesome Radiant babies.

[dhazellouise]

I rather hoped that Kaladin wouldn't fall for Shallan. I mean, Shallan is not bad, but Kaladin is, well, he's STORMBLESSED ! There's a lot of difference in their awesomness levels....

 

Don't worry. Kaladin will surely end up with someone out of his world of awesomeness, which is ME. ahaha

[Velnica]

I was pining for Adolin since it would avoid the cliche Main Hero + Main Heroine, but damnation if those Kal & Shallan banters don't do wonders to my shipping armada. "No apologize! Boots!", making a scene in the palace, omg the stormcave!!!

 

Shallan is true to herself when she was with Kaladin, and definitely not when she was with Adolin. Whether this theme would continue or not is anyone's guess, but in the meantime... All aboard the SS Shalladin!

[Aleksiel]

Potential conflicts between Kaladin and Shallan are:

1) Kaladin killing Helaran;

2) Shallan's tendency to lie and her being a part of Ghostblood; despite her original good intentions, I think she will go a different, perhaps even dangerous way. (Everyone expects her to be the mentioned traitor, so she most likely won't be imo, but still I don't see Kaladin being ok with her actions);

3) Tarah - probably alive (at least she was when Kal 'failed her' whatever that means); supposed love interest and most likely to be causing trouble in one way or another for Kaladin, because I don't think Brandon has ever foreshadowed a pleasant surprice;

4) Syl/Pattern dynamics - Shallan can live happily without Pattern's approval, but will Kal dare to antagonize Syl?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Konn]

From my perspective Kaladin seems to be by far the most likely option for Shallan at the end of the series based on the character arcs and interaction in WoR, which from what I have read in this thread corresponds with most posts. I should also say that it is my favourite shipping, so my reading may be biased, but I don’t think that it is. Based on WoR I am actually surprised about how evenly Kaladin and Adolin are doing on this poll. It seems to me that at this point, even if they are currently engaged, there is not much to support the Shadolin ship. I am not going to rehash all the arguments against them given in this thread, but from my perspective they are both convincing and spot on. Personally, I also found their sequences distinctly less entertaining and compelling than those between Shallan and Kaladin, which I thought were marvellously well written.

The arguments in favour of Shadolin seems to be pretty much that people 1) want to avoid a love-triangle, 2) that Adolin is ‘hot’/ they are so cute, 3) that two broken people, like Kaladin and Shallan, cannot work in a well-functioning relationship, 4) that there are too many/large obstacles between Kaladin and Shallan, and 5) that they are most likely to end up with a strong non-romantic relationship e.g. like brother and sister (sorry if I missed any strong arguments or are misrepresenting them, I don’t have time to reread the entire thread, feel free to let me know though). I don’t really think that any of these arguments are very solid. With regard to argument 1) I feel confident that Mr. S will be fully able to resolve the love-situation/triangle not only satisfactory, but splendidly, and as has been pointed out earlier, it may be that Shadolin will be resolved before Shalladin happens. Also, the Shalladin interaction was amongst the most enjoyable parts of the book for me, so I would like to continue in that direction. Argument 2) is in my opinion also weak, since I don’t think a four-book long relationship centred on the good looks and unruly hair of a prince will make for very interesting reading, and also I didn’t really think that they were specifically cute together in WoR. Argument 3) might have been good if not for the fact that the interaction between Kaladin and Shallan actually seems to heal them both, at least in and after the Chasm-scene where they share and relate and the way interacting and thinking about Shallan lifts Kaladins mood. Argument 4), is, actually from my perspective an argument in favour of Shalladin because I see the impending conflicts/obstacles as further elaborations of their relationship, making the story more compelling. With regard to argument 5), I think that this ship has sailed (haha) with the way their interaction clearly shows attraction between them. Consider for example during the highstorm “… He was still glad for her presence. And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress” (pp. 879). I don’t know about you guys/girls, but that is not how I would think about a sibling.

So, let me lastly add some of my own reflections about Shalladin, which I think has not specifically addressed in the posts so far. Firstly, and partly related to the issue of two broken people getting together, I think it is interesting to see the way that Kaladin compares the feelings he gets from being with Shallan in the chasm with how Tien made him feel. Consider for example “He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again – he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter. Tien always did that to me… He thought. Even on the darkest day” (pp. 850). And also, “What would he have done if, instead of living of Tien’s light, he had been required to bring light to the family” (pp. 877), and of course here he goes on to explain why he prefers a dented spear. Given Tien’s importance for Kaladin, I think that it is very significant how he connects and compares Shallan with him, and I think this is a clear indication of the importance his opinion of her, and also an argument against the ‘two broken people cant be together’ argument.

Secondly, I think that the level of conscious attraction to the other in the Shallan-Kaladin relationship is pretty skewed, by which I mean that Kaladin seems aware of his own feelings for Shallan, even while he is not acting on them in any way, while Shallan, being good at repressing unwanted truths, seems to be fully intent continuing her relationship with Adolin, e.g. all the kisses. I think however that it is quite obvious that she is attracted to Kaladin while not letting this influence her actions, for example the inner dialogue when riding with Adolin. I also think her reaction when Kaladin and not the assassin returns with bridge four after the fight with Szeth, which I believe has not been mentioned before in this thread, is significant. ““Oh, thank the almighty,” Shallan whispered. It was him, not the assassin” (pp. 1050). For me, it seems like the wording it was him, is quite telling, signifying that Kaladin has a special position in her heart, that is my reading of this quote at least.

Thirdly, about Tarah, and this is just loose speculation because we don’t know anthing about her, but might maybe her involvement in the story, assuming that she is a former romantic interest of Kaladin and is looking to continue that connection, be one factor speeding up Shallans realisation of her feelings for Kaladin? Jealousy is a potent force, after all.

Lastly, let me just say that I am not saying that Shadolin is impossible, or that Shalladin is inevitable, just that based on WoR, I think all signs are pointing in that direction (and that I really want that to happen), and that in order for Shadolin to happen, something drastic needs to happen in their character interaction, maybe such as Adolin killing Sadeas? It might make it more interesting at least, and of course, it may be that neither ship happens.
 

[Konn]

Concerning the Helaran issue with regard to Shallan, I see someone suggesting that it be put off until Kaladin and Shallan hooks up, in order to create problems then. However, I am a little sceptical to this idea because I think that 1) wouldn’t Shallan, given that she is with Kaladin check this out with him immediately after hearing if from some other source to get his story about what happens, and thus reducing the conflict? Of course, she might still find it too difficult to deal with even with Kaladin giving a good explanation, especially seeing as he knew but kept it from her, but I am still sceptical. And, 2) it seems that this revelation is so up in the day, I mean, it is just a short question to Dalinar or some of the other factions with an interest, Adolin immediately comes to mind, that I can’t really believe that a whole book will go by where Kaladin and Shallan interacts enough to become an item without Shallan finding out about what happened to her brother. For me, it seems more logical that her feelings towards Kaladin reaches the level that she is consciously recognising them and grappling with them, and then hears about Helaran. I think that might make for enough trouble in itself, especially given that I think the feelings between Kaladin and Shallan are already quite firmly established. Basically, I think that this news will have the most interesting impact if the two have a medium to high level of emotional connection and attraction, while their actual physical interaction is still irregular.

I had an idea of Tarah arriving to pursue a romantic connection to with Kaladin right in front of Shallan’s nose, and that it might lead Shallan to recognise her feelings, but that is taken pretty much out of the blue. 

[Aleksiel]

Shallan doesn't necessarily have to chose between Adolin and Kaladin. The unlikeliness of Shadollin doesn't support Shalladin.

[loke13]

Shallan doesn't necessarily have to chose between Adolin and Kaladin. The unlikeliness of Shadollin doesn't support Shalladin.

Yes but at this point in time those two are the most likeliest pairing.

Edited March 11, 2014 by loke13

[Paradox]

Does it seem to anyone else that while there are a lot of votes coming in for Shallan and Adolin. Noone is really agruing for it in the thread all that much? Or is this just me?

[Aleksiel]

Yes but at this point in time those two are the most likeliest pairing.

 

I see many obstacles ahead of them and not enough feelings to compensate.

 

Shallan had a very bad reaction towards Adolin's desire to protect her and Kal is all about protecting. He is intense and has a temper. Despite him being a great guy if a few things in him remind her of her father, that will distant her from him.  

A conflict between Syl and Pattern/Shallan will be huge for Kal.

Kal's honor and Shallan's tendency to lie are a potential problem as well.

Shallan being part of Ghostblood also is one.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Aleksiel

[shinintendo]

Is it me or anyone who against Shalladin in general votes Shadollin just to even the odds...I don't see so many Shadollin shippers speak up.

[Konn]

I see many obstacles ahead of them and not enough feelings to compensate.

 

Shallan had a very bad reaction towards Adolin's desire to protect her and Kal is all about protecting. He is intense and has a temper. Despite him being a great guy if a few things in him remind her of her father, that will distant her from him.  

A conflict between Syl and Pattern/Shallan will be huge for Kal.

Kal's honor and Shallan's tendency to lie are a potential problem as well.

Shallan being part of Ghostblood also is one.

 

I see your point, and agree in some respects, but I guess that from my reading there are already some substantial feelings there that I think will mature into sufficient feelings to deal with those issues. And also, for me, from a writers perspective (or what I assume to be a writers perspective as I am not one myself), looking at the storyline of said characters, I really feel that all the foreshadowing and the sequences spent on developing this relationship, with its romantic undertone, as well as all the future character personality contrasts that you point to, would be wasted if there isn't a romantic relationship between the two. And, even if you could argue that this could also be exploited in a non-romantic relationship, or a broken relationship, it seems to me that the best and most likely scenario would be that Mr. S continues the Shalladin romantic tract and let them work out the various issues to keep the relationship compelling. Well, at least, that is my perspective, but of course, others will have different readings, and they may very well be right.

[Velnica]

The Ghostbloods are fairly in on the workings of house Davar, so I'm putting my money on Veil finding that one out. IMO one more strike about Shadolin is that Shallan is starting to confront her Truths, while Adolin is quite possibly going to hide His truth (Sadeas' murder) so that would be a rift that happens first I think.

[kaos]

Honestly, I picked no one. Not because I particularly dislike her or anything, but because that would be the most interesting option for me (and her current relation ship options don't really interest me). That's now though. Maybe their relationships will progress in an interesting way in the future.

 

 

The Ghostbloods are fairly in on the workings of house Davar, so I'm putting my money on Veil finding that one out. IMO one more strike about Shadolin is that Shallan is starting to confront her Truths, while Adolin is quite possibly going to hide His truth (Sadeas' murder) so that would be a rift that happens first I think.

 

Wouldn't that be a point in their favor though? I mean if they get along fine the entire time that would be boring as hell. A rift makes the relationship more interesting, contains the possibility of reconnection which could make the relationship stronger, and gives them an (meta-)excuse to be in proximity to each other while their plots resolve.

Edited March 11, 2014 by kaos

[bluefoxicy]

Honestly, there's nothing between Kaladin and Shallan. Sure she noticed him, but she isn't wavering or confused; she's made some basic comparisons. She'll probably learn to admire him in battle, like every other person on Roshar; it would make zero sense for everyone to be so into Kaladin but have some woman completely not notice him.

Besides, Kaladin is in some hokey thing with Syl. He keeps examining her as a woman, he considers that her true form; and she shows concern entirely for Kaladin as a person, not Kaladin as a radiant, not even Kaladin as a horribly unstable axe hung above her head. Whenever he drifts, she worries about him; she pays exactly zero attention to the stress on the bond that will kill her. She argues with her father up to the point of claiming him. And now she can take a physical form; who knows where that'll end up.

Seriously, did nobody notice the way these two interact?

[shinintendo]

bluefoxicy Ignoring Kalladin feelings much? ignoring the sharing of their past in the chasm? all the physical contact?He compared her to people he care about in the chasm like his mother and tien.

I never read Kalladin describe Syl this say, he thinks of her as good friend and he care for her but not seeing love love here. nothing showed me otherwise.