[OB] The Unmade are Heralds

[Jimpy]

1 hour ago, Tobbzn said:

come to think of it... the thing with their shadows going the wrong way. If the "9 shadows" are the 9 unmade, then it'd make sense if the unmade tossed shadows in different directions, and their offspring might as well. It's far from confirmed, but it feels to me that it fits Brandon's style.

I'm fairly certain that a backwards shadow just implies a connection to Shadesmar, we saw it with Jasnah, Cryptics, maybe Honorspren? Someone would need to find sources but I'm like 99% sure that it's a Shadesmar thing.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

17 hours ago, Tobbzn said:

While it's possible an Aimian race was lost during the Scouring by Dai-Gonarthis, remember that "Aimian" simply refers to someone from the subcontinent of Aimia. I don't think they are otherwise related at all, and I think the Sleepless being made of cremlings suggests that they are native to Roshar.

So, here's a WoB that @Calderis dug up off of Arcanum, that could possibly be read to imply that the Dysian Aimians are not native to Roshar (emphasis added):

On 1/5/2018 at 2:27 AM, Calderis said:

Questioner

Are all Hordelings Cremlings and vise versa?

Brandon Sanderson

Cremling is a synonym in Roshar for both, insect and small crustation, right? And so you would see one and you would see that's a little crayfish. Cremling is not an exact term if that makes sense. It's like bug. The word "bug" people can use to mean a lot of different things.[...] So, yes, they look like Cremlings, because they've been bred to look like Cremlings, so they will not be noticed on Roshar, but there are Hordelings that do not look like Cremlings. But they would still be called a Cremling by the people on Roshar. The occasional people (?) used the word insect, 'cause that word does exist on Roshar. Usually make refers to like little flying bugs that you only find in the very far west of Roshar near the mountains, but yeah.

So this does open the definite possibility that the Dysian Aimians are refugees from another planet (possibly Ashyn, possibly another planet entirely).

I personally think that they are working closely with Cultivation, kind of like her master gardeners/super spies, but this could be the case even they came from a different planet.

As far as BAM goes, I think we suffer from a serious lack of information and we have to build a very shaky speculative superstructure to try figure out what her origin is. I am incredibly interested to learn more about what she is, but what we've gotten so far is a bare minimum of foreshadowing I think.

I do think all your points about Mishim are very interesting, and the fact that Ishar is shown in front of the 3 moons of Roshar in the endpaper painting does imply a connection of some sort. That's the fun about speculating, you get to see how close to the mark you are eventually, and it's going to be a long time before book 4 comes out, a lot more time to reread the first 3 books and see how small details could possibly add up to a larger whole. Like reconstructing a new type of dinosaur from 3 teeth and a fossilized footprint. Fun stuff.

[Isilel]

On 18.1.2018 at 4:34 PM, Tobbzn said:

Of course, perhaps the story really is just about the Natan, but considering The Girl Who Looked Up, I think we should be looking for alternate interpretations.

One interesting detail about Natanatan that I have noticed during my recent re-read of WoK is that in Dalinar's vision where he fights Midnight Essences with a poker he is in Natanatan, but the people don't yet have the characteristic look of modern Natans, since he has to ask where he is, whereas bluish skin and white hair on his "vision family" would have made it obvious to him. So, interbreeding between Siah Aimians and Natans must have happened later than the years 322(?) of the 8th Epoch, whenever that was. It might have even happened after the destruction of Stormseat and the "scouring of Aimia", for all we know.  Possibly, this is somehow connected with the prophecy of that lighthouse keeper from one of the interludes - could the majority of Siah Aimians have taken refuge on the islands at the Origin?  

[Tobbzn]

To build on the Ba-Ado-Mishram-connection to Siah Aimian: Axies the Collector says that he's a Voidbringer when trying to get some clothing. A joke? Or foreshadowing?

Edited January 21, 2018 by Tobbzn

[Spoolofwhool]

12 minutes ago, Tobbzn said:

To build on the Ba-Ado-Mishram-connection to Siah Aimian: Axies the Collector says that he's a Voidbringer when trying to get some clothing. A joke? Or foreshadowing?

An interesting thought, but I think it is unlikely. We were in Axies' viewpoint, and nothing in his thoughts indicated that he thought there was anything true about that idea. Also, he didn't initiate the joke, just carried it after the beggar brought up Heralds and Voidbringers.

[Tobbzn]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

An interesting thought, but I think it is unlikely. We were in Axies' viewpoint, and nothing in his thoughts indicated that he thought there was anything true about that idea. Also, he didn't initiate the joke, just carried it after the beggar brought up Heralds and Voidbringers.

Each intermission is written for a story purpose, though - and there has been little payoff to that one. I believe the big spren who I always have to look up the spelling of is a bit of a blue herring. With all these coincidences pointing towards the story being an allegory for someone getting something from Honor or Ishar... it would fit so well.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Tobbzn said:

Each intermission is written for a story purpose, though - and there has been little payoff to that one. I believe the big spren who I always have to look up the spelling of is a bit of a blue herring. With all these coincidences pointing towards the story being an allegory for someone getting something from Honor or Ishar... it would fit so well.

Yes, I think it's more likely that the Interlude was pointed more about informing us about Cusicesh. Either way, it's not entirely true that they're written for story purposes. There's a strong worldbuilding aspect in them as well. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

14 hours ago, Tobbzn said:

Each intermission is written for a story purpose, though - and there has been little payoff to that one. I believe the big spren who I always have to look up the spelling of is a bit of a blue herring. With all these coincidences pointing towards the story being an allegory for someone getting something from Honor or Ishar... it would fit so well.

I think this is really to build overall interest in Aimia, the Kaza interlude stongly suggests that something interesting is being guarded there, Akinah is a cymatic city (implying it was probably around before Adonalsium was shattered), and one of the Gem Archives talks about it explicitly. This is going to be an imporant spot in the next novels I think.

@Tobbzn I have a theory about the Siah and Dysian Aimians, if you are interested you can check it out:

In a nutshell I think the Dysian Aimians and the Siah Aimians are the boon and bane of cultivation, one is a positive fortune influencing force that spys/manipulates events for Cultivation the other is negative fortune Schlemiel force that causes enemies shoe laces to unlace so they trip while they are running, but both are working with cultivation.

[insert_anagram_here]

First of all, let me say I love this thread and apologize for bumping it so late.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 2:14 PM, The Thinking Herald said:

This is mainly in response to The One Who Connect's reply about there being more than nine desolations, and could solve the mysteries about sapience, etc....

What I'll posit here is that there were more than nine desolations, and this is directly related to the multiple sections of each unmade's name and their sentience. It is known that:

1. There were more than 9 desolations.

2. There are 9 unmade.

3. There are 10 heralds that were tortured in the interim between each desolation.

OP posits that:

1. Each breaking corresponded to a new unmade ( there's a slight problem with this, due to point 1 in the above section)

2. Each unmade corresponds to one herald, except for Taln, but that's because Taln is the man and never broke until now (Which raises the idea that there should be a new unmade now, but I'll get to that)

This theory, while not currently backed up with too much solid evidence, could still work. What I'll suggest is that each new breaking of a previously broken herald gave the corresponding unmade a new "piece" of them, adding to their sentience level and the number of name-sections of that unmade (Under this logic, Ishar was the weakest-minded of the heralds and broke thrice, hence the unmade "Ba-Ado-Mishram" corresponding to him.)

We can use this to calculate what is possibly the actual number of desolations that there were. Using the herald-unmade connections provided by Rainier (His reasons for these connections being provided in his reply):

Ishar corresponds to Ba-Ado-Mishram. He was the weakest and broke thrice, instigating three desolations and giving an unmade a level 3 sentience.

Vedel corresponds to Re-Shephir. She broke twice, started two desolations and gave Odium two units of sentience to make a level 2 unmade.

Shalash corresponds to Sja-anat. Broke twice, kickstarted two apocalypses, creating a level 2 sentient unmade.

Battar corresponds to Dai-gonarthis (Or an unknown unmade, but we're just going with it).  Broke 2 times, started two desolations, gave away 2 units of sentience.

Kalak corresponds to Yelig-nar. A "willshaper"'s will broke twice and he made a level two unmade, starting two desolations.

Jezrien corresponds to Nergaoul. Credit where credit is due, the Herald King broke only once, giving an unmade a level 1 sentience and starting only one desolation.

Nale corresponds to Ashertmarnn. THE LAW broke once, starting one desolation, and giving a level 1 sentience to an unmade.

Chanarach corresponds to Chemoarish. One breaking, one desolation, and a level 1 sentience unmade.

Pailiah corresponds to Moelach. Again, one breaking, one desolation, and a new level 1 unmade for Odium to play with.SThe

Last, but by no means least, Taln the Man. He broke only after 4500 years of torture, and under my theory, created a new mystery unmade (Which I like to think is the Everstorm itself)

According to the statistics provided, there would have been 15 desolations, excluding the Final Desolation.

TL;DR: I'm doing whatever I can to save this theory and coming up with unconfirmed statistics. Feel free to tear my reply to shreds.

On 1/15/2018 at 1:10 AM, Bort said:

This would make a lot of sense. Well spotted, I hadn't even considered this connection.

@Spoolofwhool - I think you're right about the Oathpact. I was thinking a few more, but @Sira pointed out the Cosmere constant - 16.

Quote

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent. 

Way of Kings  - p157 - chapter 11 - Droplets

I know we have been under the assumption that the above DR is about the 16 Shards, but considering the we now know that it is Moelach that provides these visions into the future, could it be irrelevant to the Shards but linked into the creation of the Unmade instead? 

Edited February 22, 2018 by insert_anagram_here
added The Thinking Herald's quote, in order to clarify what I meant by thread's theory

[Bort]

I'm still convinced that the 'three of sixteen ruled' is still about Honour, Cultivation, and Odium (being three of the Shards of Adonalsium), with the Broken One being Odium, since Honour is dead, and Cultivation is, apparently, in hiding.

[Tobbzn]

Quote

Kalak corresponds to Yelig-nar. A "willshaper"'s will broke twice and he made a level two unmade, starting two desolations.

Yelig-Nar seemed to have access to all surges. I have my own theory regarding Jasnah being a secret Willshaper (Kalak's order) due to displaying too many apparent surges, and this would be a really good fit for foreshadowing - to the point where I'm wondering if I just have an extreme case of confirmation bias about a red herring.

[MountainKing]

24 minutes ago, Tobbzn said:

Yelig-Nar seemed to have access to all surges. I have my own theory regarding Jasnah being a secret Willshaper (Kalak's order) due to displaying too many apparent surges, and this would be a really good fit for foreshadowing - to the point where I'm wondering if I just have an extreme case of confirmation bias about a red herring.

What surges did Jasnah show, I only remember soulcasting and teleportation.

[Tobbzn]

30 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

What surges did Jasnah show, I only remember soulcasting and teleportation.

In OB, she launches enemies through the air as if through gravitation. Her fears before her "death" in WoR and the way she dodges in OB without seeing is reminiscent of Truthwatching. In my theory thread (signature link) I point out how she appears to be Willshaping in her prologue in WoR, rather than Soulcasting. She also chooses to Soulcast the wall into bronze, the essence associated with Kalak's Willshapers. There's just so many small things that are off given what's been confirmed, but fit with a multi-surge paradigm.

Also keep in mind that there was a childhood disease in her youth:

 

Quote

Jasnah settled back, listening to the three spanreeds scratching paper, writing out notes that—she feared—would mostly be irrelevant. Something stirred deep within her. Glimmers of memory from a dark room, screaming her voice ragged. A childhood illness nobody else seemed to remember, for all it had done to her.

It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her.

I believe this to be an Ashyn disease, possibly one that made people treat her strangely for a while, then forget they had done so. Most of those were probably eradicated by the Heralds' sanitary advice, but I think that disease is what granted her more than her fair share of surges.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Tobbzn

[RShara]

48 minutes ago, Tobbzn said:

In OB, she launches enemies through the air as if through gravitation. Her fears before her "death" in WoR and the way she dodges in OB without seeing is reminiscent of Truthwatching. In my theory thread (signature link) I point out how she appears to be Willshaping in her prologue in WoR, rather than Soulcasting. She also chooses to Soulcast the wall into bronze, the essence associated with Kalak's Willshapers. There's just so many small things that are off given what's been confirmed, but fit with a multi-surge paradigm.

Also keep in mind that there was a childhood disease in her youth:

 

I believe this to be an Ashyn disease, possibly one that made people treat her strangely for a while, then forget they had done so. Most of those were probably eradicated by the Heralds' sanitary advice, but I think that disease is what granted her more than her fair share of surges.

This could be explained with her having a huge amount of stormlight, so she's stronger, and practiced with her abilities.  She soulcasts a lot of things during the battle, including stone and air.  And the three Essences she chose to have her "fake soulcaster" appear attuned to were smoke, fire, and crystal, rather than metal or bronze.

An Ashyn disease only gives you power while you're infected.  It doesn't last any longer than that.  We don't know that she was sick, just that she was locked away.  Rosharans generally don't get contagious diseases because the extra investiture keeps them healthy.

[Tobbzn]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

An Ashyn disease only gives you power while you're infected.  It doesn't last any longer than that. 

Do we have any confirmation that there is no immune response that lingers? It certainly seems like an illness can crack your spiritweb open, and that would last well past the disease.

And we do know Rosharans can get contagious diseases from off-world thanks to the Plague in the Purelake. Makes me wonder if Hoid had accidentally given her that illness after worldhopping from Ashyn and giving her a hug - though it seemed to be indicated that Toh was the one who wronged her before he set off to Herdaz.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Tobbzn

[RShara]

6 minutes ago, Tobbzn said:

Do we have any confirmation that there is no immune response that lingers? It certainly seems like an illness can crack your spiritweb open, and that would last well past the disease.

And we do know Rosharans can get contagious diseases from off-world thanks to the Plague in the Purelake. Makes me wonder if Hoid had accidentally given her that illness after worldhopping from Ashyn and giving her a hug - though it seemed to be indicated that Toh was the one who wronged her before he set off to Herdaz.

Ashyn hasn't been completely worked out, but according to the reading, it only lasts during the disease.

I can't imagine a scenario where Hoid would hug Jasnah....lol. We've also had several scenes from Jasnah's point of view, and she's never mentioned another spren.

Edited March 16, 2018 by RShara

[Tobbzn]

Just now, RShara said:

....Why and when would Hoid have hugged Jasnah?

Childhood. If they got along when she was a child, it would fit both why she felt betrayed by those she loved, and her adult attitude towards Wit.

It is quite curious that Hoid doesn't infect people more often by way of carrying diseases, though.

[CrazyRioter]

Hoid has ridiculous hax healing powers, they probably kill off most if not all diseases. I suppose he could carry something on his clothes or skin but most microbes don't survive that long without a host.

[RShara]

I think people would have noticed if Wit had been around so long that he knew Jasnah as a kid, without aging.  Yes, he could have disguised himself, but he seems to only have dyed his hair for his current incarnation.  And again, I don't see Wit hugging Jasnah.  She was brilliant even as a child and I don't see the two of them exchanging affections.

Quote

“You’re still human,” Shallan said, reaching across, putting her hand on Navani’s knee. “We can’t all be emotionless chunks of rock like Jasnah.”

Navani smiled. “She sometimes had the empathy of a corpse, didn’t she?”

“Chana knows, I wondered sometimes how I raised that child without strangling her. By age six, she was pointing out my logical fallacies as I tried to get her to go to bed on time.”

Shallan grinned. “I always just assumed she was born in her thirties.”

“Oh, she was. It just took thirty-some years for her body to catch up.” Navani smiled. “I won’t take this from you, but neither should I allow you to attempt a project so important on your own. I would be part. Figuring out the puzzles that captivated her . . . it will be like having her again. My little Jasnah, insufferable and wonderful.”

Her adult attitude could be explained by the fact that she just knows him as Wit, and is highly suspicious of him being right where she managed to transition to the Physical.

Hoid is very old, has lots of different types of investiture, and enough Breath at least to reach the Second Heightening, which means he's resistant to diseases.  He can also Heal just about anything, including Shardblade wounds.  Healing or preventing illnesses should be easy.

[Tobbzn]

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Her adult attitude could be explained by the fact that she just knows him as Wit, and is highly suspicious of him being right where she managed to transition to the Physical.

From the WoR epilogue I got the impression that the two of them go way back.

Quote

“It is part of what I find so annoying about you, Wit. Only a very small part of a vast, vast river.”

This suggests that she's had a long time to grow her annoyance with him. They've certainly interacted more than just in his capacity as the King's Wit! Considering how he sought out Shallan in her youth, it wouldn't be surprising if he also visited Jasnah in a similar fashion, telling tales to fascinate and inspire her to become a scholar.

[RShara]

5 minutes ago, Tobbzn said:

From the WoR epilogue I got the impression that the two of them go way back.

This suggests that she's had a long time to grow her annoyance with him. They've certainly interacted more than just in his capacity as the King's Wit! Considering how he sought out Shallan in her youth, it wouldn't be surprising if he also visited Jasnah in a similar fashion, telling tales to fascinate and inspire her to become a scholar.

Wit didn't seek out Shallan.  He ran across her by accident.  Also, remember that while Shallan was young, it was only 3.5 years ago (from Words of Radiance).  Jasnah would have been well bonded by then.

He's been in Kholinar as the King's Wit for a while now.  I'm sure they've interacted numerous times to her annoyance, just like nearly everyone else who's interacted with him.

Anyway, this is off topic and it's late, so I'll bow out of the discussion at this point.

Edited March 16, 2018 by RShara

[Tobbzn]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

Wit didn't seek out Shallan.  He ran across her by accident.

Isn't that how his "seeking out" mechanic operate, though? He'll seek out somewhere, not knowing why, and interact with the people there to find out. He instinctively picked out Shallan from the crowd as important, so why not Jasnah?

I should probably give it a rest and sleep, too.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Tobbzn

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah I'm pretty sure there is zero odds his encounter with Shallan was just random. He shows up at a pivotal moment in her life and gives her a nudge in the direction she needed right then.

[Midavis]

The Unmade are likely the severed spren that came about when the Heralds broke the Oathpact. I would argue that the spren who were bonded to Heralds giving them their powers were more powerful than regular spren so when the Heralds abandoned them, they did not die as the spren of Radiants did during the Recreance.

This makes sense for a few reasons:

1. It follows the logic of the Stormlight world where powers are associated with a bond between physical beings and spren.

 

2. There are only nine Unmade spoken of. Given the fact that only 9 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact and discarded their blades at the start of WOK (exactly what the Knight Radiants did in Dalinar’s vision when abandoning their oaths in the Recreance), it would stand to reason that only 9 unmade spren exist and that since Tan never broke his oath, there is no 10th Unmade.

 

3. In Oathbringer when Shallan confronts Re-Sephir, it says “The creature trembled, and Shallan finally saw the reason for its fear. It had been trapped. The event had happened recently in the spren’s reckoning, though Shallan had the impression that in fact centuries upon centuries had passed. Re-Shepir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonement had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature. It feared her like an axehound night fear someone with a voice similar to that of its harsh master” (Sanderson 310). This highly suggests Re-Sephir was the spren bound to the Herald Shalash who seemed to head the order of Lightweavers. The impossible imprisonement is not in Urithiru which Re-Sephir fleas after confronting Shallan, but in the breaking of the Oathpact by the Heralds, something so inconveivable in the minds of the spren who bonded to them as to be impossible. Shallan goes on to say that upon touching Re-Sephir that it tries to “rip free” her bond with Pattern and “insert her self instead” (Sanderson 309). Not only is this act of bonding with humans very spren like, but this attempt suggests that Re-Sephir might still have a deep, subconscious desire to retain the sentience and bond that was lost when Shalash broke the Oathpact. Finally, in this same section Shallan says “it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong” (Sanderson 309). This statement, along with the fact that Shallan stated throughout the battle between Bridge Four and Re-Sephir that it could easily have consumed the men but was studying their fighting instead in much a similar way as Pattern is interested in all human interactions (claiming he bonded with Shallan to study humans), gives more credence to the idea that Re-Sephir is the Cryptic spren formerly bonded to Shalash.

4. Also, consider the Heralds going mad. This would make sense if the spren they severed during their breaking of the Oathpact retained some of their sentience once abandoned. Since the spren of the Heralds would be more powerful (or maybe their bond was more powerful) the severing of that bond would likely not kill them. This would also account for the varying levels of sentience among the Unmade and the varying levels of mental instability among the Heralds. The more sentience the spren took at the time of severing, the more crazy and disturbed the Herald was left.

This is why Shalash is still mostly sane given the fact that Re-Sephir took such a low level of her sentience when splitting and some of the other Heralds are less functional given the amount of sentience taken when they severed their spren.

 

4. Finally, it would also explain why there is no screaming in people’s minds who wield the Oathblades as the spren associated with those blades are not dead. Not only that, but just as the Heralds lost a bit of their sentience when they severed their bond with their spren, the spren lost a bit of their powers to the Oathblades which retained some of their abilities at the time of severing. This would explain why Re-Sephir, former spren of Shalash, could only make faulty approximations of forms in its fight with Brdige Four. Some of its abilities were lost at the time of the severing.

 

This is my 2nd time through all the books and I really feel like I am seeing things clearer now that the picture is better painted. I also want to throw out the idea that Dalinar’s need to unite the Heralds with their severed spren as part of the charge to lead the fight against Odium.

Let me know what you think.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Midavis

[The Thinking Herald]

@Midavis The second point is probably not possible, as one of Dalinar's visions, set during the time of the Desolations and Knights Radiant, showed the existence of Midnight Essences, which require Re-Shepnir to create them, as shown in Part 1 of Oathbringer. According to your theory, this would mean that Midnight Essences are unrelated to the Midnight Mother, Re-Shepnir, whilst the evidence says otherwise.

I'd respond to the rest of your theory, but my mind is clouded at the moment. I'll update this as I find more proof.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by The Thinking Herald
Incomplete Response