What is wrong with Renarin?(full book)

[Khyrindor]

 

HELLO FRIENDS THERE IS A RENARIN TOPIC I AM HERE

 

 

Awesome points

[Scriptorian]

About the whole future seeing vs. calculating thing...Syl expressly says that seeing the future is not of Honor, but not that it is the exclusive purview of Odium. There are three Shards here, and I'm fairly certain that Cultivation is as involved in the Radiants as Honor (Liespren aren't exactly honorable). Assuming Truthwatchers are order five, they are on the other side of the spectrum from the Windrunners, which seem to be the closest to Honor. I have no problem with Renarin seeing the future. I just think his order is much closer to Cultivation than not.

 

What I am really interested about is these odd abilities all of the radiant seem to have that are mostly unrelated to their Surges (Shallan has Memories, Kaladin is an uber-fighter, Skybreakers can apparently detect guilt, and Truthwatchers can see the future.)

 

I am in the pro-Renarin crowd and I really hope we get to see some more awesomeness from him in the future.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Serendipity

[Aminar]

I figure Cultivation has her own system of things... The Radiants and their Oaths(Note Oaths, which are Honorable to follow.) are still pretty much a thing of Honor. Not to mention all the(all 10) honorblades granting surgebinding are of Honor quite specifically. So if Cultivation offers seeing the future I doubt it would be via the Radiants. Pattern has never struck me as dishonorable. This is getting off topic though. I figure as long as Renarin has oaths to swear he's of Honor and cannot see the future.

[Gloom]

Meh!

 

Renarin isn't physically handicapped. Renarin isn't physically neurologically handicapped. Renarin is a Surgebinder. Any physical ailments would have been corrected when he started breathing in stormlight. This would have been when he stopped wearing his glasses. What Renarin is, is emotionally handicapped. He spends most of the book quietly coming to terms with what he is, and since we don't get a POV, we don't see it. Renarin didn't have a seizure in the arena, because this was at a point after he stopped wearing his glasses, he may have suffered a panic attack, but that is a completely different animal.

 

Renarin is like someone who was born with one leg who just grew a second and now has to learn to walk rather than hop around. He just needs time to adjust to being balanced, to seeing the world through a new lens. He is cracked of course, if he weren't, he would never have managed to bond with a spren.

 

There are so many potential reasons for his actions, but none of them are the result of a permanent condition of the mind or body. Stormlight would have fixed those.

[Seerow]

Is there anything to indicate that Stormlight (or any other form of Cosmere healing) can cure diseases of the mind?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I figure Cultivation has her own system of things... The Radiants and their Oaths(Note Oaths, which are Honorable to follow.) are still pretty much a thing of Honor. Not to mention all the(all 10) honorblades granting surgebinding are of Honor quite specifically. So if Cultivation offers seeing the future I doubt it would be via the Radiants. Pattern has never struck me as dishonorable. This is getting off topic though. I figure as long as Renarin has oaths to swear he's of Honor and cannot see the future.

Whether or not the honorblades are exclusively of honor or if Cultivation played a part in that system isn't fully known yet. Regardless, the knight's radiant surgebinding is not the same process as the heralds abilities and there is nothing to indicate that the surges come exclusively from Honor's power.

 

In fact, there is ample evidence to indicate that many of the surges come from Cultivation's power rather than Honor's. Progression specifically sounds like it is connected more specifically to Cultivation's intent. Wyndle refers to "mother" in the way Syl refers to the stormfather as "father" which sounds to me like he is connected to a female power, not Honor. The excerpts from the in world Words of Radiance sounds like not all the orders followed ideals that windrunners would consider "honorable". Many of the things Shallan did during the book to achieve her goals were not particularly honorable.

 

But yes, you're right, a little off topic so I'll end it with that. 

[Gloom]

If stormlight can heal a shard dead limb, it can stimulate or redirect brain activity. If it can grow back a limb that has been missing for long time, then it can fix pretty much anything. I think the burden of proof at this time lies in the hands of those trying to prove that stormlight wouldn't be capable of healing Renarin. I mean the eye is one of the most complex organs in the human body, many people with weak vision have had weak vision all their lives, yet Renarins vision was corrected. If stormlight can correct vision, regrow limbs, heal cuts and broken bones without effort, etc., I see no reason to believe that something like a mild case of Autism would be an issue.

[Seloun]

Meh!

 

Renarin isn't physically handicapped. Renarin isn't physically neurologically handicapped. Renarin is a Surgebinder. Any physical ailments would have been corrected when he started breathing in stormlight. This would have been when he stopped wearing his glasses. What Renarin is, is emotionally handicapped. He spends most of the book quietly coming to terms with what he is, and since we don't get a POV, we don't see it. Renarin didn't have a seizure in the arena, because this was at a point after he stopped wearing his glasses, he may have suffered a panic attack, but that is a completely different animal.

 

Renarin is like someone who was born with one leg who just grew a second and now has to learn to walk rather than hop around. He just needs time to adjust to being balanced, to seeing the world through a new lens. He is cracked of course, if he weren't, he would never have managed to bond with a spren.

 

There are so many potential reasons for his actions, but none of them are the result of a permanent condition of the mind or body. Stormlight would have fixed those.

 

It's worth noting that Kaladin's slave brand still hasn't healed. Maybe there's something special about them, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that 'ailments' that are part of your personal identity might not go away via Stormlight.

 

The real answer is we just don't have enough evidence either way right now (at least, not that I can find). That said, from a meta perspective I think his condition being just a result of a physical defect is going to be pretty disappointing.

[Gloom]

My primary point has less to do with his behavior than his supposed seizures. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that these, at the very least, wouldn't have been permanently corrected by stormlight, and find it likely that anything that was capable of causing a seizure would also be corrected.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Gloom

[taxilian]

If stormlight can heal a shard dead limb, it can stimulate or redirect brain activity. If it can grow back a limb that has been missing for long time, then it can fix pretty much anything. I think the burden of proof at this time lies in the hands of those trying to prove that stormlight wouldn't be capable of healing Renarin. I mean the eye is one of the most complex organs in the human body, many people with weak vision have had weak vision all their lives, yet Renarins vision was corrected. If stormlight can correct vision, regrow limbs, heal cuts and broken bones without effort, etc., I see no reason to believe that something like a mild case of Autism would be an issue.

 

I completely agree with the logic about the scope of ability of stormlight to heal, but it's worth considering the question of whether or not that "mild case of Autism" is actually a disease/problem/whatever.  It's quite possible that it would heal his epilepsy, that being an actual disability, but leave everything else, as that could be viewed less as a disease and more as simply part of who he is. Stormlight obviously hasn't cured Kaladin's tendency to be cranky... autism may not be something that stormlight would interact with as something needing to be healed.

 

I'm a computer nerd and fantasy book geek, Shallan is an obsessive artist, and Renarin is mildly autistic. I just don't imagine stormlight would change any of that =]

[FeatherWriter]

I would agree with this to an extent.  Social anxiety makes taking initiative much, much more difficult.  Having a pre-arranged order to fit in simplifies the decisions enormously and allows the person in question to focus on the details rather than getting overwhelmed by the bigger picture problems they can't focus on.

 

So I guess that the way you are describing Renarin is quite accurate.  I don't think he wants to keep it that way, though.  His joining Bridge 4 is a good sign that he is trying to change it, and trying to do so despite much bigger hurdles than the other actors. 

 

Edit:  For the sake of clarity, I would like to add that while I am probably not autistic to any unusual degree (I naturally have empathy and can read body language, intonation and the like instinctively), I have other issues with anxiety which have tended to make me very introspective and made it hard to take initiative.  I guess I empathize very strongly with Renarin in his struggles.  Once they were pointed out to me, I was like, o man, I have so totally been there.  Well done, man.  Well done.

 

Ah, this thread is making me happy now. People appreciating and empathizing with Renarin. AKA, everything I've ever wanted. I'm glad people are realizing what an amazingly sympathetic character he is. Perhaps my mad ravings are having a positive effect after all this time.

[EvilNuff]

What?  Sympathetic?  Good gracious!  My dear Feather I applaud your passion for Renarin but please be reasonable.  Renarin is far closer to a villain than a sympathetic character.  He has undermined his house and his country...repeatedly.  Just a few points:

• He persists in trying to be a warrior when he is unsuited for it physically (talking pre-shards here).  That is being a spoiled brat, there is no redeeming reason for him to do this.  This is a society where there is constant fighting, the second son of the most important house in the kingdom is a significant asset.  For him to just throw away any help he can provide his family is an incredibly selfish thing to do.
• He is finally presented with shards and while it is admirable that he is trying to learn to use them.  He cannot.  The right thing to do is to give up this foolishness and let someone who can use them make use of them.  They are an incredibly rare and valuable resource.  They are wasted on him and the Kholin house was weakened because of Sadeas.
• Several times he demonstrates his bravery, and each and every time he is like a chain around the feet of his father/brother dragging them down.  The fact that he doesn't cause either or both of them to be crippled or killed is quite amazing.

So what you have here is a character who absolutely is struggling with his ailments and internal doubts, etc.  But he is the opposite of sympathetic, he is actively harmful (through 2 books) to his house and family!  If at any point in time through the first two books he stopped being the selfish brat he is, then he would be sympathetic.  For example, if he was offered shards and turned them down, actually refused them and did what was right for his family as opposed to his own selfish goals, then he would be sympathetic.  I can make a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic.

[Cheese Ninja]

Let's all salute Renarin, because he gave us a timeline for Words of Radiance by counting down the days, and eventually prompting Navani to say what the calender date of day 0 days, with that and Taravangian's list of highstorm days from the chapter 88 epigraph, we have an almost complete timeline, whenever one of us feels  like putting the rest of it together.  Besides the little bit I did here.

 

To be a bit more on topic, I think he did used to have epileptic seizures, but the Stormlight healed that in addition to eyesight.  As to him having a slight ASD, sure he may, but it's not like the condition exists in a vacuum.  He's in a unique situation from the rest of the characters, with his own things to deal with, so he's going to have some issues.  I definitely wouldn't call him a villain, I slightly agree with him being a sympathetic character, and almost entirely agree with the useless comment.  But I still have high hopes for him.

[FeatherWriter]

What?  Sympathetic?  Good gracious!  My dear Feather I applaud your passion for Renarin but please be reasonable.  Renarin is far closer to a villain than a sympathetic character.  He has undermined his house and his country...repeatedly.  Just a few points:

• He persists in trying to be a warrior when he is unsuited for it physically (talking pre-shards here).  That is being a spoiled brat, there is no redeeming reason for him to do this.  This is a society where there is constant fighting, the second son of the most important house in the kingdom is a significant asset.  For him to just throw away any help he can provide his family is an incredibly selfish thing to do.
• He is finally presented with shards and while it is admirable that he is trying to learn to use them.  He cannot.  The right thing to do is to give up this foolishness and let someone who can use them make use of them.  They are an incredibly rare and valuable resource.  They are wasted on him and the Kholin house was weakened because of Sadeas.
• Several times he demonstrates his bravery, and each and every time he is like a chain around the feet of his father/brother dragging them down.  The fact that he doesn't cause either or both of them to be crippled or killed is quite amazing.

So what you have here is a character who absolutely is struggling with his ailments and internal doubts, etc.  But he is the opposite of sympathetic, he is actively harmful (through 2 books) to his house and family!  If at any point in time through the first two books he stopped being the selfish brat he is, then he would be sympathetic.  For example, if he was offered shards and turned them down, actually refused them and did what was right for his family as opposed to his own selfish goals, then he would be sympathetic.  I can make a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic.

 

"Here lies Evilnuff, or at least the tiny charred remains that were all that could be recovered from the scene of the destruction. Let the death of this poor soul serve as a reminder to all who would incur the wrath of Feather by demeaning her darling Renarin. Evilnuff will be mourned."

[Aleksiel]

 Syl says so. And the very tenants of Vorinism, the religion the Radiants were founded under do so. Combine that with Nightform as described in the epigraphs and it's pretty clearly stated that seeing the future is Voidbinding, not surgebinding. In addition Honor says he's not good at seeing the future, that's Cultivation's thing and Surgebinding appears to be pretty much an Honor thing at this point. I think Renarin can predict the future, not see it, and those are vastly different things. ...None of us can SEE the future though. Voidbinding can. Renarin has to calculate and guess, but his order is good at patterns. Much like Taravingian.

 

Actually, we don't know how the Sunmaker changed Vorinism, only that he condemned visions. So, the original religion behind the Radiants is lost to us for now.

 

Honor specifically said he could see vague glimpses from the future, but it was like trying to see through shattered window. Surgebinding is of spren and some spren are most likely of Cultivation as well and she is better in seeng (that's the word Honor used, not predicts, not anything else, but see)

 

 

“I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future… I can only guess.”

 

So, foreseeing the distant future might be a voidbringer thing, but the near future is definitely not impossible for others.

 

I agree Taravangian made educated guesses at his best day and that was not seeing the future. However, what I said about Honor, surgebinders and seeing the near future still stands. I do not remember Syl saying anything that disproves this, so please provide a quote on the matter.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Aminar]

What Honor describes is seeing probabilities and possibilities which is exactly what I am saying Renarin does. And I am not searching 400000 words of text for a quote three other people have agreed exists.

On another topic, Autism is not damage. It is not something Stormlight would be likely to heal, because in manu ways and scenarios it is a benefit. It is a genetic condition based on the development patterns of the nervous system. Poor vision is a slow degradation of the eye. That isn't anywhere near the same thing as Autism. What we have seen is that becoming an Elantrian can allow a severly autistic person to overcome the communicative difficulties that come with Autism. Long term therapy can do this well, but it most certainly did not heal the character's entire nervous system. Even then, there is a full body transformation there. Stormlight appears to return the body to its natural state for the most part. Renarin's natural nervous system is different. Not broken. Brandon knows enough about Autism not to insult every autistic person on the planet by calling them broken.

[happyman]

What?  Sympathetic?  Good gracious!  My dear Feather I applaud your passion for Renarin but please be reasonable.  Renarin is far closer to a villain than a sympathetic character.  He has undermined his house and his country...repeatedly.  Just a few points:

• He persists in trying to be a warrior when he is unsuited for it physically (talking pre-shards here).  That is being a spoiled brat, there is no redeeming reason for him to do this.  This is a society where there is constant fighting, the second son of the most important house in the kingdom is a significant asset.  For him to just throw away any help he can provide his family is an incredibly selfish thing to do.
• He is finally presented with shards and while it is admirable that he is trying to learn to use them.  He cannot.  The right thing to do is to give up this foolishness and let someone who can use them make use of them.  They are an incredibly rare and valuable resource.  They are wasted on him and the Kholin house was weakened because of Sadeas.
• Several times he demonstrates his bravery, and each and every time he is like a chain around the feet of his father/brother dragging them down.  The fact that he doesn't cause either or both of them to be crippled or killed is quite amazing.

So what you have here is a character who absolutely is struggling with his ailments and internal doubts, etc.  But he is the opposite of sympathetic, he is actively harmful (through 2 books) to his house and family!  If at any point in time through the first two books he stopped being the selfish brat he is, then he would be sympathetic.  For example, if he was offered shards and turned them down, actually refused them and did what was right for his family as opposed to his own selfish goals, then he would be sympathetic.  I can make a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic.

 

Being ineffective does not make somebody a villain.

I hope he becomes a whole lot more effective, yes, either by realizing where his true strengths lie or by becoming more effective at what he is doing.  Whichever actually does more good.  But I do not fault him for trying.  Which is what you seem to be doing.

 

This is rather the whole point of Kaladin's arc from Words of Radiance, but in respect to Elkohar rather than Renarin.  Still. it applies here as well.

 

He still has a character arc and learning to do, no doubt.  Some of that will hopefully be learning that he really can play to his strengths and that people were wrong to dismiss what he was already good at.  But an important point is one I learned from Writing Excuses:  "Readers care more about whether your characters are trying than whether they are succeeding."

[FeatherWriter]

Being ineffective does not make somebody a villain.

I hope he becomes a whole lot more effective, yes, either by realizing where his true strengths lie or by becoming more effective at what he is doing.  Whichever actually does more good.  But I do not fault him for trying.  Which is what you seem to be doing.

 

This is rather the whole point of Kaladin's arc from Words of Radiance, but in respect to Elkohar rather than Renarin.  Still. it applies here as well.

 

He still has a character arc and learning to do, no doubt.  Some of that will hopefully be learning that he really can play to his strengths and that people were wrong to dismiss what he was already good at.  But an important point is one I learned from Writing Excuses:  "Readers care more about whether your characters are trying than whether they are succeeding."

 

(Hehe, I'm preeeetty sure Evilnuff was joking. The line about "a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic" is the giveaway. Thus my reaction of smiting.)

 

If stormlight can heal a shard dead limb, it can stimulate or redirect brain activity. If it can grow back a limb that has been missing for long time, then it can fix pretty much anything. I think the burden of proof at this time lies in the hands of those trying to prove that stormlight wouldn't be capable of healing Renarin. I mean the eye is one of the most complex organs in the human body, many people with weak vision have had weak vision all their lives, yet Renarins vision was corrected. If stormlight can correct vision, regrow limbs, heal cuts and broken bones without effort, etc., I see no reason to believe that something like a mild case of Autism would be an issue.

 

Wow, I've not been reading these posts closely enough. Though I've disagreed with Aminar in the past, they're right in this regard. Autism isn't something broken, it's a neurotype that is different. Stormlight heals physical issues alone and does not change mental states or attributes. We have canon evidence of this. Kaladin's been surgebinding actively for a book and a half and the Stormlight hasn't done a thing to fix his depression or his seasonal affective disorder. We get plenty of hints that he's still struggling with depression even after getting out of Sadeas's camps and saving Bridge 4. We can see in the Weeping at the end of the book that his SAD is as strong as ever. There is no evidence that Renarin's ASD or his epilepsy would be any different and in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by FeatherWriter
Needed to respond to this again.

[Aminar]

 

(Hehe, I'm preeeetty sure Evilnuff was joking. The line about "a stronger case for calling Sadeas a hero than I can for Renarin being sympathetic" is the giveaway. Thus my reaction of smiting.)

 

 

Wow, I've not been reading these posts closely enough. Though I've disagreed with Aminar in the past, they're right in this regard. Autism isn't something broken, it's a neurotype that is different. Stormlight heals physical issues alone and does not change mental states or attributes. We have canon evidence of this. Kaladin's been surgebinding actively for a book and a half and the Stormlight hasn't done a thing to fix his depression or his seasonal affective disorder. We get plenty of hints that he's still struggling with depression even after getting out of Sadeas's camps and saving Bridge 4. We can see in the Weeping at the end of the book that his SAD is as strong as ever. There is no evidence that Renarin's ASD or his epilepsy would be any different and in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. 

 

For future Reference it's He.  I'm a guy.  And thank you for noting Kal's depressive symptoms.  I feel like the number of mental states Brandon put's into these books, and the work he puts into letting us know they are there gets missed frequently.

[FeatherWriter]

Ah, yeah, I checked your profile for preferred pronouns, but couldn't find any. The neutral "singular they" seemed better than an assumption as to your pronouns. 

[Aminar]

Ah, yeah, I checked your profile for preferred pronouns, but couldn't find any. The neutral "singular they" seemed better than an assumption as to your pronouns.

I figured as much. Thought it might be best just to clarify.

[Mileswasbestcharacter]

I think renarin is the traitor from the diagram (epigraph from chapter 86) and his spren is Moelach.
Why do I think this?
Starting assumptions:
Renarin has precognition, a know trait of voidbringers. Renarin has his blood sickness, described as some kind of epilepsy. Moelach is a powerful voidspren, specifically with precognition, and taints a body as it breaks apart from the mind (chapter 82, epigraph).
These assumptions have led me to the conclusion that renarin may unwittingly be tainted by void spren, and mistakes his abilities for a manifestation of KR power.

Discuss!

Also can't find page, Taravangian says something about Moelach leaving his area of operations, causing death rattles to become more rare.

[Seloun]

I think renarin is the traitor from the diagram (epigraph from chapter 86) and his spren is Moelach.

 

It's not impossible, and if the epigraph is actually talking about KR, Renarin is probably the best guess at this point. However, if you examine the other epigraphs from that section of the Diagram, you will note that they're all talking about the Unbound (the sections about one of them probably being a traitor is actually in the same section that describes Moelach's abilities). I believe the current working assumption is that therefore the statement is referring to one of the Unbound, not one of the KR. The Diagram seems to imply that it thinks it's possible the KR wouldn't be refounded. The statement is present-tense, which would be odd in that case.

[Tarion]

 

Wow, I've not been reading these posts closely enough. Though I've disagreed with Aminar in the past, they're right in this regard. Autism isn't something broken, it's a neurotype that is different. Stormlight heals physical issues alone and does not change mental states or attributes. We have canon evidence of this. Kaladin's been surgebinding actively for a book and a half and the Stormlight hasn't done a thing to fix his depression or his seasonal affective disorder. We get plenty of hints that he's still struggling with depression even after getting out of Sadeas's camps and saving Bridge 4. We can see in the Weeping at the end of the book that his SAD is as strong as ever. There is no evidence that Renarin's ASD or his epilepsy would be any different and in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. 

Honestly, I think that a lot of this is going to come down to the Cognitive Realm.

 

If Roshar reached modern Earth level of technology, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stormlight being able to fix Kaladin's depression and SAD (Although, I'm still unsure as to whether he's suffering from SAD, or whether it has a magical component.  The lack of Stormlight around the Weeping could well be something that effected everyone capable of the Nahel bond).  

On Roshar, that's "just how he is".  On Earth, they'd be prescribing him SSRIs and he'd view it as a problem to be fixed, external to his self.  Stormlight "might" fix the latter.  

 

So Renarin's epilepsy could well be fixed.  Or rather, the underlying cause could be.  But his autism isn't going anywhere.    

[leinton]

SSRIs do not fix depression. SSRIs are tools that allow you to hold depression back, and also do not work across the board. We cannot "fix" depression or else the rates of depression would be significantly decreased. Also we don't see other people reacting the way Kaladin does during the Weeping. It is certainly SAD that he is experiencing. In fact, it still would be under your description, just using Stormlight in place of sunlight.