The Diagram (Spoilers)

[Ararder]

chapter 85 prelude about the wanderer, where we are quite sure its hoid, Mr T:s buddy guesses its Mraize. Which ascertains that they either know of the ghostbloods, or Mraize is quite infamous.

[Ararder]

Btw, was it just me that reacted to the similarities between mraize and rayse?

Im guessing that Mraize is aware of Rayse amd that he holds the third shard on roshar!

[Aminar]

Btw, was it just me that reacted to the similarities between mraize and rayse?

Im guessing that Mraize is aware of Rayse amd that he holds the third shard on roshar!

It's heavily implied that cultivation is female. So I doubt he holds a shard.

[Guest Shash]

Closed my thread that was pretty much exactly the same. I should have checked more than the front page - I didn't anticipate other people thinking of this connection...

...but it's obvious what must be done. We must Worldhop to Trantor and enlist the help of the Second Foundation. In fact, maybe we could use the Mule to force people into extreme emotional distress to 'snap' them. Get some more Surgebinders in play.

[Chrono]

I believe it says if he sues for peace it would mean Dalinar would become a rival to Mr. T's quest to become King of Everything so he would need to be killed. 

 

After the Diagram talks about wiping out the Parshendi, I just assumed it was because of that: if Dalinar engages in peace talks, the Everstorm will come and oops, you've got an entire civilization ready to kill you with lightning and highstorms. Kill them all before that happens, problem solved.

[Cheese Ninja]

Did any of you notice that Taravangian asked for two different things from Nightwatcher, and was in turn granted two different things?

“Did ever I tell you, Adro, what I asked for?” he whispered as he read.

“Yes.”

He was barely listening. “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.”

And he received intelligence for the first and compassion for the second, presumably.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Did any of you notice that Taravangian asked for two different things from Nightwatcher, and was in turn granted two different things?

And he received intelligence for the first and compassion for the second, presumably.

It seemed to me that his intelligence is the boon, because his high intelligence basically made a fairly foolproof plan and that his compassion was his curse so that he understood what he did was wrong and he has to live with that.

[Cheese Ninja]

That's certainly the way that it's presented in the book.  But I think it might be tricksier than that.

[Seerow]

That's certainly the way that it's presented in the book.  But I think it might be tricksier than that.

 

A theory someone brought up on another forum is that the Compassion was his boon, while the fluctuating intelligence is his curse. He's misinterpreting it as the reverse, and leading the world down a very bad road as a result. 

[Edgedancer]

Am I the only one that got creeped out by the places where Mr. T wrote the Diagram? I just imagine him like a madman scribling everything on whatever was at hand at the moment.

[RShara]

Reminded me of Deep Space Nine and "Bennie" writing out their stories.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

That's certainly the way that it's presented in the book.  But I think it might be tricksier than that.

More than likely. Not a lot of my little theories came true in words.

[Radda]

A minor question that's been bugging me to no end since I finished the book.

 

In these two epigraphs:

 

Ah​but​they​were​left​behind​It​is​obvious​from​then​ature​of​the​bond​But​where​where​where​where​Setoff​Obvious​Realization​like​a​pricity​They​are​with​the​Shin​We​must​find​one​Can​we​make​to​use​a​Truthless​Can​we​craft​a​weapon

 

—From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first

 

There​has​to​be​an​answer​What​is​the​answer​Stop​The​Parshendi​One​of​them​Yes​they​are​the​missing​piece​Push​for​the​Alethi​to​destroy​them​outright​before​this​one​obtains​their​power​It​will​form​abridge

 

—From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the second

 

what exactly does that "every second letter starting with the first/second" mean? Also "likeapricity"?

[Moogle]

what exactly does that "every second letter starting with the first/second" mean? Also "likeapricity"?

 

It means that there was a jumble of letters written down on the floor and that if you take every second letter you will get the two epipgraphs. Combined, we get:

 

AThhbeurtethhaesytwoebreealneafntsbweehriWnhdaIttiisstohbevainosuwsefrrSotmotph

TehneaPtaurrsehoefntdhieObnoenodfBtuhtewmhYeersetwhheeyraerwehtehreemwihsesrienS

geptioefcfeOPbuvsihofuosrRtehaelAilzeatthiiotnoldieksetarporyitchietmyoTuhteryia

grhetwbietfhotrheetShhiisnoWneemoubsttafiinnsdtohneeiCrapnowweemraIktewtiolulsfe

oarTmraubtrhildegse

 

I wasn't able to determine any meaning from this. However, we can use it to try and determine other epigraphs. I'll make a post on it later, I guess. My first though was using all the capitals, though, which form "ATWISTPOBYSOPRATSWCIT". Not very useful.

 

No idea on what "pricity" means. It may be a nonsense word deriving from the fact that 2 or more sentences can be found in the combined paragraph.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Paradox]

As we talk about the Diagram I think it is important we remember that they are written by a human man who is by no means infalliable even on his very best day. When it comes down to it his predictions and thoughts are just that, predictions and thoughts. Since his boon seems to be varying intelligence its best to assume that no matter how smart he may be on a given day it is still entirely possible for any information he writes as part of the Diagram to be wrong. Either by lack of information, Omission of some of his internal reasoning, misinterpertation of information presented to him, and the fact he seems to be highly sociopathic.

 

Basically I am taking anything he has written that we can't directly prove as correct or quantafiable as suspect.

 

For example "One of them is almost surely traitor to the others", He could quite literally be writing this about ANY group of people. furhtermore he isn't completely 100% certain that whoever this person is is in fact a traitor, this would imply he added this tidbit to the diagram using either incomplete or unreliable information. As i said in another thread I think that this is an example of the Diagram being used to lead us on a wild goose chase thinking one of the radiants is traitor to the others when it could in fact be talking about the herals, the ghostbloods, the skybreakers or the local investment firm down the road.

 

As a side note I think that for one of the radiants to be traitor they would certainly have to have betrayed thier oaths. 'Journey before destination' basically compels them to hold the means by which they achieve things more important that the things they achieve , i.e murding a child to save another person(s) would almost certainly cause them to break the first oath on the spot and 'kill' their spren. Something that I think any of the current radiants would not do intentionally & would try to avoid doing unintentionally like Kaladin did.

[Sleep 4 ever]

Apricity means the warmth of the Sun in winter.

[happyman]

It means that there was a jumble of letters written down on the floor and that if you take every second letter you will get the two epipgraphs. Combined, we get:

 

AThhbeurtethhaesytwoebreealneafntsbweehriWnhdaIttiisstohbevainosuwsefrrSotmotph

TehneaPtaurrsehoefntdhieObnoenodfBtuhtewmhYeersetwhheeyraerwehtehreemwihsesrienS

geptioefcfeOPbuvsihofuosrRtehaelAilzeatthiiotnoldieksetarporyitchietmyoTuhteryia

grhetwbietfhotrheetShhiisnoWneemoubsttafiinnsdtohneeiCrapnowweemraIktewtiolulsfe

oarTmraubtrhildegse

 

I wasn't able to determine any meaning from this. However, we can use it to try and determine other epigraphs. I'll make a post on it later, I guess. My first though was using all the capitals, though, which form "ATWISTPOBYSOPRATSWCIT". Not very useful.

 

No idea on what "pricity" means. It may be a nonsense word deriving from the fact that 2 or more sentences can be found in the combined paragraph.

 

I'm pretty certain the meaning is the one you get by taking every other letter and disentangling the two ideas.  Diagram!Taragavinian apparently could think at least two thoughts at a time and thought that they would be easy to disentangle after the fact.

 

Considering that that's actually a fairly simple cipher, I'm thinking he was basically right.

[CorwinofAmber]

The dates listed in the chapter 88 excerpt appear to be dates that occur during the course of WoR (and after the death rattles listed in WoK.) I haven't been able to figure out why those dates are significant though.

[Cheese Ninja]

A theory someone brought up on another forum is that the Compassion was his boon, while the fluctuating intelligence is his curse. He's misinterpreting it as the reverse, and leading the world down a very bad road as a result. 

I don't agree with that, I think his boon was both Compassion and Intelligence, and the curse is that those two qualities vary in an inversely proportional manner.  And it's impossible for him to predict which will be more prominent on any given day.

[Argent]

I wouldn't include compassion in neither the curse, nor the boon. Very high intelligence usually correlates with lower ability to feel empathy, so this inverse relationship between Taravangian's intelligence and compassion levels could be simple physiology. As I see it, the boon is his intelligence, and the curse is its randomness. 

[RShara]

The dates listed in the chapter 88 excerpt appear to be dates that occur during the course of WoR (and after the death rattles listed in WoK.) I haven't been able to figure out why those dates are significant though.

 

Too bad that they don't get more specific than months during the book (journals, mention of dates, etc).  I was thinking those might be dates of when the Everstorm clashes with a regular highstorm?

[PorridgeBrick]

I wouldn't include compassion in neither the curse, nor the boon. Very high intelligence usually correlates with lower ability to feel empathy, so this inverse relationship between Taravangian's intelligence and compassion levels could be simple physiology. As I see it, the boon is his intelligence, and the curse is its randomness.

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 281018368 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 285174064 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

Only in fiction, really. I've never actually noticed any correlation between empathy and intelligence.

[Cheese Ninja]

Too bad that they don't get more specific than months during the book (journals, mention of dates, etc).  I was thinking those might be dates of when the Everstorm clashes with a regular highstorm?

Don't be silly. We're given the exact dates.

 

“Out of curiosity,” Dalinar said. He turned and nodded toward the glyphs on the floor. “Tell me, Navani. Assuming these numbers are counting toward a date, is it a day when a highstorm will come?”

“Thirty-two days?” Navani asked. “That will be in the middle of the Weeping. Thirty-two days won’t even be the exact end of the year, but two days ahead of it. I can’t fathom the significance.”

So, the 0 day (day of the Parshendi/Alethi clash, Kaladin's fight, transportation to Uritihiru) would be 1173-10-10-3.  Incidentally, Renarin was kind enough to write down (Edit: some of) the numbers I've put in red for us throughout the book.

1173-09-06-05(68)  1173-09-08-01(62) 1173-09-09-01(57) 1173-09-10-01(52)

1173-09-10-04(49) 1173-10-01-05(42) 1173-10-02-05(38) 1173-10-04-01(32) 

1173-10-06-03 (20) 1173-10-08-04 (9)

They're nothing special, Taravangian was just predicting highstorm dates, stormwardens do it all the time.  They just can't do it with perfect accuracy several years in advance.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Cheese Ninja

[RShara]

I guess I'm dense then, because I don't actually remember any specific dates, other than month and year?  Other than can be guessed from the countdown, of course.

 

Example:

 

To be perfectly frank, what has happened these last two months is upon my head. The death, destruction, loss, and pain are my burden. I should have seen it coming. And I should have stopped it.

—From the personal journal of Navani Kholin, Jeseses 1174

[Cheese Ninja]

For Jeseses 1174, it can be written as 1174-01-01-01. "Jes" is the abbreviation for the first month (ten months to a year), and then "es" is used for the first week (10 weeks to a month) and also the first day of the week. (5 day weeks).

 

You can infer from Navani's comment that I quoted that Renarin's numbers are counting down to 10-10-3 (Ishishach, if you're curious), and between that and the dates Taravangian gives for the highstorms, you can apply a date to most of the events of the book.   Peter stated here that in chapter 75 of WoK, the highstorm happened after midnight, and chapters 1 and 2 of WoR happened later on the same day.  Kaladin then says that he's been the head of Dalinar guard for a week after Renarin scratched that "62 days" comment on the wall.  So chapter 4 is on 9-8-1, which is a date given in that bit of Taravangian's Diagram.

Then in chapter 16:

Sometimes, though, it seemed like his job was impossible to do well. During the highstorm last week, someone had again sneaked into Dalinar’s rooms, scrawling a second number on the wall. Counting it down, it pointed at the same date a little over a month away.

That would be the 57 day away highstorm.

Also:

It had been three weeks now since Renarin had been given his Plate. Why had Adolin waited so long to bring him here for training? Had he been waiting until the duel, so he could win the lad a Blade too?

Chapter 18 is the same day, and there's noted as being another highstorm that night, so with those 3 separate bits of information, we can be sure that it's 9-10-2, which would the 52 day away highstorm.

 

In chapter 26:

Renarin nodded. They’d found another scratched set of them, after the recent highstorm, outside Father’s room. Forty-nine days. A new storm comes.

 

I'm mostly skipping the two highstorms in between (42 and 38), since Renarin doesn't seem to have left messages.

The 42 day one would be when they attempted to kill Elhokar by sabotaging the railing.

 

But here's a brief bit about 38 in chapter 31:

“Highstorm,” Kaladin realized. It seemed like too soon since the last one, but they weren’t always regular—not in the way he thought of it. The stormwardens had to do complex mathematics to predict them; Kaladin’s father had made a hobby of it.

Only 4 days since the last one, which is why he thinks of it as "too soon". This is the night of Szeth's assassination attempt.

 

In chapter 50, which is the same day that Adolin and Shallan visit the wine shop and watch the stormwall approach, Sigzil reads it out for us:

"Thirty-two days,” said one of the bridgemen, a short Azish man. “Seek the center.”

That's shortly before Navani gives her quote from which we can judge day 0 to 10-10-3.

 

Bored, skipping some stuff:

Eshonai settled herself, Shardplate grinding against stone. This close to the lull—the time called the Weeping by the humans—highstorms were growing more rare. That had created a small impediment in her march to see every listener given stormform. There had only been one storm since Eshonai’s own transformation, and during it, Venli and her scholars had taken stormform along with two hundred soldiers chosen by Eshonai. Not officers. Common soldiers. The type she was sure would obey.

The next highstorm was mere days away, and Venli had been gathering her spren. They had thousands ready. It was time.

If you were wondering why the gaps got so long in between them later on.  Venli also says that they only have two highstorms before the lull. Eshonai also states that she's held stormform for 15 days.  So we're at day 23 (10-5-5) and the day she transformed was day 38 (10-2-5).

 

Chapter 62 is on day 19 (10-6-4) :

Kaladin sat back on his bench, nibbling on the flatbread. There’d been a highstorm yesterday, but he’d barely been able to hear it, locked away in this room.

 

The highstorm where Shallan and Kaladin are stuck in the chasms is the day 9 one. (10-8-4)

 

The whole thing couldn't be much clearer, especially after how nebulous the dates were in WoK.