[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Dreamstorm]

@maxal Just my two cents (FWIW) is that the beta readers were used to pressure test how he wanted the book to come across to readers. This means they may have reacted to a certain storyline and he was like, yes, that’s how I wanted them to react. Or they reacted in a certain way, and he was like, hmmm, I should tweak so I get my intended reaction. Note his intended reaction may not be that a certain storyline in neatly wrapped up! He may want readers wondering what happened to the Sadeas murder plot. We don’t know. But we do know that for some storylines (i.e. the romance arc) he took a lot of feedback and tweaked the storyline to try to get across what he wanted to get across. But we don’t know what he wanted to get across. And we don’t know why. (And neither do the betas, though they may have slightly more of an idea based on what feedback was taken and ignored or how a plot was modified as related to the feedback.) @Chaos let me know if I’m mischaracterizing this! I appreciate all this insight!

[+Ravioli]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I agree with you about the AMA: I had the same feelings. People kept asking about a few plot points readers have felt weren't dealt with satisfyingly and they kept answering: "Oh we discussed it but so much else was happening, we didn't really care...". It was asked if they noted how a few chosen story arcs might not be considered very satisfying for the greater readership and the answer was rather telling: no one ever discussed how the readership would react as everyone thought the book was amazing. This bothered me: it isn't as if the story aspects which are actually being criticized hadn't been talked about in a visible manner... I then realized it may because the group of people chosen probably weren't individuals actually participating within those discussions.  Another comment which bothered me is when it was said: "All beta readers are die-hard Brandon's fans and as such are in for anything he writes no matter what it is." or something along those lines... Some of them were even a little mean towards posters who tried to challenge some answers...

 

Okay, I'm going to have to take umbrage with your posts, because this is a shot at me, people I consider good friends, and all of us who worked very very hard on this thing. First of all, none of us think the book is perfect, but we are overall satisfied with how the book progressed. There was a section where we had to put what we were unsatisfied with in every Part and at the end of the book. The thing was filled to the brim, hundreds of thousands of words long. Our comments were much longer than the actual book. I personally made some very unflattering comments. However, I'll tell you a little secret, the beta readers are not all powerful. We get the third draft of the book. That means Brandon is already done with the story, plotting, and outlines. When we say "we discussed it" it means we told Brandon that something was missing or we felt left out. However, in the end, Brandon chooses to respond to our feedback or not. It's his story. He did choose to respond to some of our feedback and chose not to to others. That's his prerogative, it's his book series and his outline and his plots. So, when you say stuff like "broken promises to the reader," you made that up. No writer explicitly promises anything, you just infer that on your own. I'm sorry that what you wanted to see didn't happen, but oh well, everyone has stuff that they want in a book that they don't get to see. However, we all thought it was a good book and were satisfied overall. The book was so much more than the stuff you're pointing out. That is why we're saying "so much else was happening." Because we noticed and commented on how these things were missing, but we also saw why they weren't included. It's called giving objective feedback. If we all gave feedback on what we wanted as fans, the book would be terrible. 

Also, your other comment about who was chosen. There are more communities than 17S and people can express their love of the fandom in many different ways. Also, if only superfans tested the book, then the book would not appeal to the vast majority of people, you know, the ones who actually make these books a success. We are in the vast vast minority, and other voices also need to be heard. Brandon tries to makes sure that the entire range of his fandom is represented in his beta group.

 

28 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@maxal Just my two cents (FWIW) is that the beta readers were used to pressure test how he wanted the book to come across to readers. This means they may have reacted to a certain storyline and he was like, yes, that’s how I wanted them to react. Or they reacted in a certain way, and he was like, hmmm, I should tweak so I get my intended reaction. Note his intended reaction may not be that a certain storyline in neatly wrapped up! He may want readers wondering what happened to the Sadeas murder plot. We don’t know. But we do know that for some storylines (i.e. the romance arc) he took a lot of feedback and tweaked the storyline to try to get across what he wanted to get across. But we don’t know what he wanted to get across. And we don’t know why. (And neither do the betas, though they may have slightly more of an idea based on what feedback was taken and ignored or how a plot was modified as related to the feedback.) @Chaos let me know if I’m mischaracterizing this! I appreciate all this insight!

^This, exactly this. Spot on.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ravioli

[Willow]

I've been following this thread for a while, even if I don't quite agree with the title, and though it has gone off-topic for a bit. Because I think Shallan is a very interesting, realistic and sympathetic character.. as long as I haven't actually read the book in a while. As soon as I do I just get irritated, every time, even with the knowledge that all her reactions (I'm ignoring the OB discussion for the moment, I've only read it once) follow logically from her past.

For me, some of her behaviours just hit the wrong nerve. My main problem with her is that she has, at a few points in the book, used the fact that she's smarter and wittier than most people to insult them, and hide under the guise of 'oh we're just bantering and having fun together'. The boots scene doesn't quite fit under this umbrella, but I generally consider it to be part of the same behaviour.

Another problem is her complete 180 in behaviour towards people. Take Renarin, since she went from ignoring him, to finding him creepy and ordering people to gag him because he was irritating her, to suddenly being offended that Janala was insulting him. Janala was wrong, but Shallan should've at least acknowledged her past actions somewhere. The issue is that she just blithely ignores this and seems to pretend as if she's always acted this friendly.

I've spend some time thinking about why I didn't have this problem with Shallan in WoK, and why I didn't have any problem with Jasnah insulting Amaram in OB. I think the problem here is that Shallan only spends time with Jasnah, who is above her in station, and in OB Amaram is a Highprince and the same rank as Jasnah (he also definitely invited the insults, she tried to shut him down first). I have the feeling that Shallan has not quite realized she's no longer punching up with her insults, she's punching down.

At least I have the relief of knowing this is on purpose by Brandon Sanderson, as he makes Kaladin acknowledge it in chapter 77 of Oathbringer:

Quote

Kaladin frowned. Comments like that were part of what confused him about Shallan. She seemed perfectly friendly one moment, then she'd snap at him the next, while pretending it was merely part of normal conversation. But she didn't talk like that to others, not even in jest.

But since this specific type of behaviour generally puts you on my 'let's never meet or talk again, ever' list, I hope she'll improve soon.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Willow

[Foxx]

I have to jump on board here. She has never been a favorite of mine, and at times is my absolute least favorite character. And it's weird because I feel like I also have a very personal connection to her character. Her past is very similar to my own (abusive father, broken home, issues with trust, a mother who tried to kill her [yep]) and in many of her POV chapters I totally and completely understand her emotions and fears because I've been there. I actually had to skip over some of her flashbacks in WoR and have a friend summarize them for me because they were just too hard for me.

The problem with her for me, however, is that I coped with all of it in the oposite direction as her. She represses and refuses to deal with her problems, and I veered hard in the other direction. I do not repress and I am a very "let's face this thing head on" type of a person. I don't let things go unsaid, I deal with stuff (I'm very Jasnah-ish, in fact), and because of how I've seen that work for my good in my own life, I just hate watching her do the opposite and screw things up over and over. She just comes off as horribly immature to me, and I frankly don't think her jokes are funny...

All of that said, I have absolutely cried the hardest at her moments. That Shallan/Wit moment in OB destroyed me ("Accept the pain but don't accept that you deserved it.") Gosh, y'all. That was rough.

So, for me, I think I see her as a person who is dealing with the same stuff I've dealt with, and doing it in a very immature and wrong way and that just irritates me to no end. She's a well written character and I get where she's coming from and she's very realistic to me (more so than I'm comfortable with at some times), but my gosh she just drives me up a wall.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Foxx

[maxal]

18 hours ago, Ravioli said:

Okay, I'm going to have to take umbrage with your posts, because this is a shot at me, people I consider good friends, and all of us who worked very very hard on this thing. First of all, none of us think the book is perfect, but we are overall satisfied with how the book progressed. There was a section where we had to put what we were unsatisfied with in every Part and at the end of the book. The thing was filled to the brim, hundreds of thousands of words long. Our comments were much longer than the actual book. I personally made some very unflattering comments. However, I'll tell you a little secret, the beta readers are not all powerful. We get the third draft of the book. That means Brandon is already done with the story, plotting, and outlines. When we say "we discussed it" it means we told Brandon that something was missing or we felt left out. However, in the end, Brandon chooses to respond to our feedback or not. It's his story. He did choose to respond to some of our feedback and chose not to to others. That's his prerogative, it's his book series and his outline and his plots. So, when you say stuff like "broken promises to the reader," you made that up. No writer explicitly promises anything, you just infer that on your own. I'm sorry that what you wanted to see didn't happen, but oh well, everyone has stuff that they want in a book that they don't get to see. However, we all thought it was a good book and were satisfied overall. The book was so much more than the stuff you're pointing out. That is why we're saying "so much else was happening." Because we noticed and commented on how these things were missing, but we also saw why they weren't included. It's called giving objective feedback. If we all gave feedback on what we wanted as fans, the book would be terrible. 

Also, your other comment about who was chosen. There are more communities than 17S and people can express their love of the fandom in many different ways. Also, if only superfans tested the book, then the book would not appeal to the vast majority of people, you know, the ones who actually make these books a success. We are in the vast vast minority, and other voices also need to be heard. Brandon tries to makes sure that the entire range of his fandom is represented in his beta group.

I have asked what some of us have been silently wondering without daring asking. I saw an opportunity to formulate questions and I used it while knowing it would be badly received, while knowing it would yet be another stain onto my reputation within this community. I however felt those were valid questions to ask by those who have worked to keep this community alive on a daily basis, taking our personal time to fuel the numerous threads. 

I am sorry you read it as an insult. I felt these were legitimate questions to ask despite knowing people wouldn't like me asking. There are also things I take umbrage of, but I do my very best not to let them affect my posting. I was very honest with this.

[+Ravioli]

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

I have asked what some of us have been silently wondering without daring asking.

Right, because hanging around here and passive aggressively "wondering" is so much better. And plenty of people did ask this very same question. That's why we had an AMA. You were just unsatisfied with our answer. I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted but that's the real answer. 

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

 I saw an opportunity to formulate questions and I used it while knowing it would be badly received, while knowing it would yet be another stain onto my reputation within this community. I however felt those were valid questions to ask by those who have worked to keep this community alive on a daily basis, taking our personal time to fuel the numerous threads. 

 Please stop painting yourself as a martyr. People did ask those questions and we were very nice in answering them. They were not badly received. If anything you badly received our answers. So stop painting this narrative of self sacrifice of some cause you're championing. Everyone takes personal time to be part of a fandom, that does not mean you are entitled to anything. We put in long hours for the beta, same as you do in your posts. We made threads just like you.  We all spend time doing this because we love it, so stop pretending like you and your ilk do more than other people. This is a community not a younity. 

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

I am sorry you read it as an insult. I felt these were legitimate questions to ask despite knowing people wouldn't like me asking. There are also things I take umbrage of, but I do my very best not to let them affect my posting. I was very honest with this.

I didn't read them as insults. They were insults. You said we didn't do our jobs. You said "no one ever discussed how the readership would react as everyone thought the book was amazing." That is a false statement and a blatant attack on us. You were essentially calling us yes men, despite our many assurances that we said to prove otherwise. You were calling us liars. You also misquoted us numerous times. I would have been happy if you just asked it directly instead of making passive aggressive statements like this. But no, you had go and pretend like we wronged you somehow. If you don't let things affect your posting then you wouldn't be posting stuff like this. I am being very honest here too. Next time you want to criticize someone PM one of us, tag us. Don't hide. I don't care about your supposed "reputation" I just see you as another passionate fan. However, you crossed the line by making false statements just because you didn't agree with us. Nevertheless, I am not angry with you, but I am upset that you chose to characterize us as a group without actually mustering up the courage to come to the AMA and ask us stuff instead of hiding here. I hope you remain a very vocal and prolific member of the community and that we continue to share our love for these books. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ravioli

[maxal]

17 minutes ago, Ravioli said:

...

And you have just proven it was impossible to have this discussion in a civilized, respectful manner. Before you make gross assessment about myself, I suggest you check your facts. Have a nice day. Or whatever. I really don't care.

[Diomedes]

On 2.12.2017 at 1:09 PM, fail420 said:

I just absolutely loath Shallan, every time I see her name in the book I just want to skip the whole chapter.

To you and to those who think like you, 

you are in good company, go ahead and read the Wit/ Shallan chapter again. (p.787.)

Shallan is actually one of you. But she probably hates herself waaaay more than you ever could. 

 

That being said, it is important to note that she is at a pretty dark place right now, like Kaladin just before he fell into the chasms in WoR. Imagine how you would feel about Kaladin, if the book had cut off just then and there. My guess is you wouldn`t really like him. So please withhold your final judgement on Shallan for one or two books until she has pulled herself back together. 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Diomedes

[Varenus]

11 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

 

That being said, it is important to note that she is at a pretty dark place right now, like Kaladin just before he fell into the chasms in WoR. Imagine how you would feel about Kaladin, if the book had cut off just then and there. My guess is you wouldn`t really like him. So please withhold your final judgment on Shallan for one or two books until she has pulled herself back together. 

 

I agree completely. Especially considering the part where the street urchin dies. It's a shame to, because I actually didn't mind Shallan's character/personality/storyarc in WoK or WoR. The only real part I find frustrating is the whole multiple personality thing . And that is mostly because it caused more problems, both plot wise and narrative wise, for Shallan then they seem to solve. After having more time to think her arc in OB over, I have decided that we will just have to see how it plays out in the future books.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Varenus

[scienter]

I’m relieved to discover that I’m not the only one who has problems with Shallan.

I liked her in WOK, although I felt that she lacked depth. In WOR she got the depth that I wanted, but her character started bothering me. I tired of her ‘wit’ and humor. I grew annoyed with her dishonesty, manipulations, and low-level cruelties (E.g., stealing Kaladin’s boots, suggesting that someone gag Renarin, her classism, her insults, etc.). With OB I’ve found her increasingly immature (Shallan said it herself – Jasnah treats her like a child because she acts like a child). I’m utterly bored with Veil, including her dealings with the Ghostbloods & the identity issues. Consequently, reading Shallan’s POVs in Oathbringer was a chore.

And I doubt that it’s a matter of seeing where her story goes because I’ve had to put up with her through three +1,000 page books. To put it simply: I don’t care what her destination is because I’m not liking her journey. That's a shame because the characters are what I like most about the Cosmere. Shallan, however, just grows more tedious as the story goes on. *sigh* I want to like her, but I just don't. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by scienter

[Vissy]

Unironically saying "beta nerdy virgin" is kind of... strange behaviour. It's not quite the kind of language I expected to encounter on a Cosmere fansite, I'll tell you that.

As far as Shallan goes, I both grew to like her more in OB *and* to see more flaws in her character, though not necessarily in her characterization. If anything, Shallan only grew more broken during OB, and where I expected her to grow, she devolved... and sort of came back together again. She's constantly slipping in and out of her alter egos, and in the final scenes of the book she pretty much splits apart for a while until Adolin manages to help her become whole. It's a really nice finish to her character arc in this book, honestly: it shows how much she's struggling with the brokenness of her soul, but also sets her on a path of recovery at the very end. Still, I can see why one would be annoyed at the (perhaps only seeming) lack of development in her character.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Vissy

[deddinty]

I was sort of indifferent to Shallan after WoK, and started to see her potential in WoR but I really dislike her right now. Not as a character she's fantastic as a character, but as a person. 

She's flat out abusive to Kaladin in several situations, even before the Helaran issue was known. You can see her abusive father coming out in her in these situations, and unlike bridge 4 calling out Kaladin for his BS attitude sometimes no one calls Shallan out on it.

I don't want to get too much into the nuances of this but I see her racism as more vile than Kaladin's, whose anger comes directly from abuse and observation even if it's not justified, while Shallan truly sees herself as above dark eyes. Obviously there's a lot of everyone being racist but for me her version of it is far worse than a lot of the other characters. 

Honestly I really hope she gets a bit more of a backseat treatment in book 4 sort of like Kaladin did in book 3. I just don't like reading her chapters anymore, and it has nothing to do with how she's written, I just have lost all sympathy for her. I pity her, I can understand her situation and see how she's doing the best she can but I can still wish there was less of her in the future. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by deddinty

[Subvisual Haze]

Maybe it's like the thing with the old Star Trek movies, where the even numbered ones are the good ones. 

After TWOK I was ready to be bored to tears by Shallan's chapters and "wit" in WOR, but she surprised me by being an absolutely delightful character with a sympathetic backstory and solid emotional connection with the main characters.  Her scene with Kaladin in the canyons contrasting their different ways of carrying their psychological burdens was really quite profound.  I was expecting more of that Shallan in Oathbringer, but instead got surprised again, this time by an overly dramatized portrayal of "multiple personalities" which seemed straight out of a Lifetime Original Movie and starkly out of place compared to the other careful and measured portrayals of mental health disorders we see in many other characters.  Which again is quite sad, because I found the WOR and early-Oathbringer Shallan so much more relatable in her struggles with panic disorder, past traumas and repression.  Halfway through Oathbringer I just wanted to skim through any Veil chapter as quickly as possible.

[Nymeros]

Shallans character is very incredibly well conceptualized and the way her past and the nature of her magic inform her psyche is very, very well done.

The thing is, Shallan is not someone I would want to follow or talk to or meet at all.....

[FuzzyWordsmith]

On 12/4/2017 at 6:12 PM, Ravioli said:

We all spend time doing this because we love it, so stop pretending like you and your ilk do more than other people. This is a community not a younity.

So, I'm not going to comment on the rest of that post. However, as a member of said ilk, I'm kinda disturbed by that. The phrasing implies an element of division. Aren't we supposed to be a community as a whole? I mean no offense, nor am I attempting to defend or disparage anyone, I just feel that the general tone of the message implies a division, though I'm not sure who the "sides" are in that matter. I think that's what disturbs me the most. It seems to me like an "us vs them" moment.

[Chozo]

I agree completely. Her character drives me nuts. First it was the patented stupid witty banter based entirely on seizing any ambiguity in one's choice of words. Then when the ceaseless stupid witty banter finally subsides she develops super split personality disorder. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Chozo
Typo

[Llarimar]

I know what you mean and Shallan definitely annoys me sometimes - my problem with her is that her character development has hardly any momentum.  Sometimes it will seem like she's progressing and changing and then she just reverts back again, if not worsens.  You keep thinking she'll come to terms with herself and get over the whole Veil thing, but instead by the end of Oathbringer her identity crisis has basically progressed to full-on split-personality disorder.

That being said, I always look forward to Shallan's chapters when reading Stormlight because I often find them to be the most interesting in the book - there's a lot of mystery, subterfuge and mild psychological horror, whereas the Dalinar and Kaladin chapters are much more straightforward and predictable.  

[eshu]

Hi everyone, longtime intermittent lurker (I peruse the boards after reading a stormlight book for insights) and first time poster. I know it may come off as dickish making this my first post but I couldn't help myself as Shallan is a critical character in my relationship with the series. You see, I have a love hate relationship with the Stormlight Archive and Shallan encapsulates why that is. The writing of her has very strong elements; her tragic backstory and how those wounds manifest in her pathology and actions are well done. Yet, her chapters are a constant source of annoyance which decrease my general enjoyment of the books. 

Shallan's chapters tend to have strong elements of narrative coercion. Every time I read a chapter of hers it feels like the author is telling me constantly how amazing she is, which leads me to resent her. He does this via everyone's reaction to her, which I understand acts as a foil to her own self loathing but comes off as pandering due to the elements she is praised for being subjective aspects e.g. charm, sense of humour etc.. There's a very thin line between precocious and obnoxious and to me Shallan is very much the later. Dad jokes besides, her "cheeky" interactions with the larger world are constantly interpreted as universally charming. Now, I don't want the whole of Roshar to hate her, I just need a few dissenting views to provide contrast.

Then there's her inherent classist/racial insensitivity. Stormlight Archive is a good series, with one of it's strongest elements being it's immersive world which demands reader investment with it's themes and politics. However, this personally can be a negative experience as the narrative is still taken from a primarily light eyes perspective. Their outlook, concerns and sympathies take primacy by default and as such their criticisms of other groups need to be challenged to avoid being read as tone def. Shallan's interactions with Kalladin (especially in WoR) better illustrates what I mean as she constantly dismisses his anger towards light eyes and the prevailing social paradigm as petty. Now I don't mind her attitude as it fits her history - she's from aristocracy and she doesn't socialise with dark eyes. My problem is with Kaladin's complete agreement with her appraisal and reverence for her strength of spirit which validates the opinion that his issues (and those of his class/race) are indeed petty (my first point rearing its ugly head again).

Now, I know that long form series like these operate as a journey as I doubt the current social attitudes will remain prevalent by the end. I mean, I expect Shallan to use her powers to go undercover as a dark eyes for an extended period at some point. That doesn't dim the irritation experienced reading her in the moment. 

        

Edited December 8, 2017 by eshu

[Nexus Wolf]

Hi! Imma throw my five cents in here as well. 

In all honesty, I share much of the OP's opinions. I really dislike her chapters, and I've only reached the second book till now. Some say she improves, but she's only worsening in my opinion. 

The thing that annoys me a lot is her "jokes". Most of it is meaningless nothing's that she twists words to say, almost always in a childishly simplistic way; and that is something I can live with. A trait. But what annoys me is how those listening react. They're stunned, unable to respond, and quickly act like sycophants and praise her for being so clever with her tongue. At one point I thought it's her being light eyes, but whatever. It's really annoying how her "cleverness" is lauded so much. Tozbek, Yalb, Gaz, Reed and all of them. I honestly think most would react like Jaznah. Raise an eyebrow and wonder what the hell is wrong with her. (Kinda why I liked Jaznah either way)

 

The next is her insufferable pretentiousness. Almighty is she pretentious. She's condescending yet she's somehow a Messiah. She's convinced she's special, but she has dialogues of "omaigawd the world depends on me". She never felt that clever, and her wit is frequently overplayed. And the entire scene with her manipulating the deserters sickened me. She sent people to their deaths and deemed them "heroes". And she doesn't even follow them into the fight because she would just "get in the way". And the guy she ended up causing death to, Bluth (who I actually liked), she closes his eyes and goes all "Go fight for Almighty bold one". I had to resist screaming at her. She dismisses opinions that disagree with her as being "wrong". She pities people's suffering, but thinks it's perfectly fine or expected for people to serve her because "authority". Atheism could be hogwash for all she cares, and she frequently judges others, ignoring her own faults somehow. Oh hey! Yalb cheated. How disgusting. It isn't like I'm here to steal or something. Oh hey! Deserters. They help, they good people. They don't help, they evil people. And she has her self-aware comments that somehow worsen here. I really hope she improves in later books, because the moment I contrast her with Kaladin, Dalinar, Jasnah, or even Jenet the horse-handler, she really flicks my wrong buttons. 

 

(Maybe I overreacted a bit. But meh.)

 

And I know flaws make her a more grounded character (like Kaladin being a hypocrite sometimes ) but her being convinced of it being "right" really irks me. "The only thing more dangerous than a villain is a villain convinced he's the hero."

 

UPDATE : Just saw her summon a fricking Shardblade. Perhaps she may have hope yet. 

[Gasper]

Shallan is a troubled character, that much is certain. That has not stopped me from have an intense dislike for her. She come off as a stereotypical fangirl or comic relief in a sitcom. She has had a few redeeming moments, but those are few and far between. As far as characters that I dislike from across the fictional spectrum, she is right up there with the cast of Teen Titans Go,  Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender, and Jar Jar Binks. A character that I do like is Jasnah Kohlin, every scene she is present is well written and fairly good, even when Shallan is present. Also, she threatened Hoid with a Shardblade.

[goody153]

I don't hate her but she is my least favorite out of the main characters in Camp Dalinar. I still hate Moash and Mr. T much much more than her.

[dionysus]

On the subject of brilliance, it is very hard for an author to write a character better at something than he is. Brandon has talked before about how writing Shallan's and Wit's quips as one of the most difficult things about writing Stormlight. I also do not find Shallan as brilliant as her in-world reactions imply, but I also just recommend a healthy dosage of suspension of disbelief when reading any smart character. Funny enough, I find Wit to be much better but I think it is just a screen time thing. Wit is unknown and we don't see inside his head. For me, Shallan is just too flawed a character for me to enjoy reading. I like Brandon's rubric of 2 positive traits and one negative trait to create a sympathetic character but with dramatic tension. Shallan is like 1 positive trait and 5 negative traits.

[Justi]

Hi. I also signed up for this issue. I just finished first two books. I’m really really really trying to read her chapters but I often found myself skipping pages. Beginning of the books I never liked her because her solution to problem was kind of lame. She spend all of their money because she believe she had to stole from another. For me, clever person -for some reason every other character tries to sold us she is clever- never puts all eggs in one basket.  Not only she gambled all the money, but her reason is her family will be poor and her brothers will sold as slave. Eh same time we are reading how Kaladin dealing wtih slavery. Feeling sorry for her family’s “possible” slavery is very hard after that. 

I also dont like her storyline, I found very shallow. She married love of her life and her problem in the first book solved with that. Her family is safe. She didnt lost Jasnah’s friendship. Kaladin is always there for her If something didnt work with Adolin. She is radiant and powerful. Yep she had bad childhood but even this become something good. Now she have many identities she can use which is very cool.  I’m not saying she should suffer like Kaladin but at least she should lost something other than abusive father and mother who wanted to kill her. She was so favored even death of her parents good for her. Puff.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Justi

[Ripheus23]

At some point Shallan's mind will divide so much that she will become every character in the Cosmere, and then you'll *have* to love her.

[Jenet]

In a way, I am grateful for this thread. I shows me why teenagers and children with severe trauma and difficult childhoods often are bullied at school. People are unable to relate to their problems, even when the reasons for their behaviour are described in awful, horrible detail.

I find Shallan one of the most interesting characters in the series, and mostly so in Oathbringer. The last thing that happened in WoR was that Shallan was forced to remember that she actually killed her mother at 11 years of age. And that was after her mother tried to kill her. It is totally logical that a 17 old girl that has had a totally horrible childhood without any socialisation whatsoever, behaves weirdly at times. And if she did not experience a worsening of her symptoms after being forced to relive the worst nightmare of her childhood, and confess that she was the one who killed her mother and her guilt feelings for what started the whole mess with her father's abusive ways and the destruction of her whole family, well, I would say the book would have been unrealistic and not interesting to me.

I think many people forget that at the beginning of OB, Shallan had remembered her killing her mother just days ago. She was almost destroyed by the memory. But I hope it was what she needed to heal, perhaps in the next book in the series.

I just love that Sanderson never explains these things in an easy, direct way. I makes it easier to understand human relations. And the nature of bullying.